B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?

That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp is
_well_ below 0F.

--

Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?

On Jan 20, 9:54*am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. *Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. *There were no problems the
following springs. *If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?

That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp is
_well_ below 0F.

--

If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if it goes dead it
can freeze, dirt, dust, grease on the battery can discharge a battery,
best is remove the positive cable, wash it good with a brush and soapy
water and charge it fully.

B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?

Until the electrolyte freezes no damage will occur. When it freezes it
can cause the case to crack and leak, and possibly damage the interior
elements. Battery acid, depending on the state of charge, won't freeze
until it drops to -25 to -30 degrees F

On Jan 20, 10:25*am, Boden wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. *Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. *There were no problems the
following springs. *If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?

Until the electrolyte freezes no damage will occur. *When it freezes it
can cause the case to crack and leak, and possibly damage the interior
elements. *Battery acid, depending on the state of charge, won't freeze
until it drops to -25 to -30 degrees F

A fully charged battery wont freeze until -75 a discharged battery
will freeze at 27 and it will sulfate and ruin the battery, with car
electronics and dirt on the battery they self dischage so the freeze
point goes up.

I have never removed the battery from my lawn tractor which is stored in an
out building. I have owned lawn tractors and other battery started garden
equipment for over 30 years and never removed batteries and never had a
freeze-up nor any damage. Here we can get cold winters in southern Ontario,
Canada. Last night was about 0 degrees F.
If your temperatures rarely drop below 32 F., you have absolutely nothing to
worry about, that is considered a mild day in winter here.


"B'razeer Boobar" wrote in message
...
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?

ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:54 am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?
That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp is
_well_ below 0F.

--

If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if it goes dead it
can freeze, ...

Charged or uncharged doesn't make much difference on the freeze
point--certainly not anyways near 32F, anyway...

--

dpb wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:54 am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?
That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp is
_well_ below 0F.

--
If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if
it goes dead it
can freeze, ...

Charged or uncharged doesn't make much difference on the freeze
point--certainly not anyways near 32F, anyway...

The state of charge makes all the difference. A fully
charged lead acid battery is not going to freeze at
-60F, but a totally discharged battery has *water* in
it, and will freeze and crack the case at 32F.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
dpb wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:54 am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?
That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp is
_well_ below 0F.

--
If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if
it goes dead it
can freeze, ...
Charged or uncharged doesn't make much difference on the freeze
point--certainly not anyways near 32F, anyway...

The state of charge makes all the difference. A fully
charged lead acid battery is not going to freeze at
-60F, but a totally discharged battery has *water* in
it, and will freeze and crack the case at 32F.

I've never seen it happen w/ a small engine battery even outside over
winter in W KS where 0F and below are common -- they're invariably
discharged by spring as I don't really worry about them and I've never
had a problem w/ one, sealed or no...the specific gravity changes, sure,
but never to the point ime of becoming "water" at 32F (or even very
close)...

--

a dead battery does IN FACT have just water in it and WILL freeze at 32
degrees. There's no disputing this. BUT, whether or not it actually
damages the battery is the variable. Some batteries will tolerate this more
than others. What happens is when the WATER freezes, it expands and damages
the lead plates. Some have more room to move than others and will survive.
Most decent quality batteries will be damaged by freezing due to the
closeness of the plates. BULGING ends on the battery itself is a telltale
sign that it has froze at some point.


s

"dpb" wrote in message ...
I've never seen it happen w/ a small engine battery even outside over
winter in W KS where 0F and below are common -- they're invariably
discharged by spring as I don't really worry about them and I've never had
a problem w/ one, sealed or no...the specific gravity changes, sure, but
never to the point ime of becoming "water" at 32F (or even very close)...

--

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
dpb wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:54 am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the
lawn tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in
the garage never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were
no problems the following springs. If the temp does go below 32
for a sustained period, does this necessarily cause irreparable
damage to the battery?
That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp
is _well_ below 0F.

--
If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if
it goes dead it
can freeze, ...

Charged or uncharged doesn't make much difference on the freeze
point--certainly not anyways near 32F, anyway...

The state of charge makes all the difference. A fully
charged lead acid battery is not going to freeze at
-60F, but a totally discharged battery has *water* in
it, and will freeze and crack the case at 32F.

Well, not at 32f because of the mix and impurities, but the temp starts
getting dangerous to batteries at some point not too far below 30F.
If you've ever noticed, the liquid in a cold, discharged battery will
turn to slush first when it freezes, and continually become more solid
as the temp drops.

Typically, it's best to charge batteries monthly, especially if they're
exposed to the elements. Besides their internal rate of discharge, a
nice cold battery with dew/moisture on it can also find external paths
to discharge through.
As a battery discharges it becomes more and more susceptible to
freezing. Even with slush, if pressure builds up between the plates and
moves them at all, added to the normal sulfation of not being kept
charged, they can then take a quick nosedive to dead, becoming nothing
but a resistor and capacitor.
I keep my batteries in the garage and periodically charge them
whenever the mood hits me; seems to work well. Usually I'll hold a
headlight on the posts for a minute or so, just to bring it down a bit,
so it'll charge at a higher rate. Theory is, it helps the sulfate
situation, but who knows?
You used to be able to "shock" such lead acid batteries back to
another season's use sometimes, but the last couple times I tried it, it
didn't work. The ability must have gone away with all the design
"improvements" in batteries.

My 2 ¢ anyway.

Twayne

dpb wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
dpb wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:54 am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?
That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp is
_well_ below 0F.

--
If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if
it goes dead it
can freeze, ...
Charged or uncharged doesn't make much difference on the freeze
point--certainly not anyways near 32F, anyway...
The state of charge makes all the difference. A fully
charged lead acid battery is not going to freeze at
-60F, but a totally discharged battery has *water* in
it, and will freeze and crack the case at 32F.

I've never seen it happen w/ a small engine battery even outside over
winter in W KS where 0F and below are common -- they're invariably
discharged by spring as I don't really worry about them and I've never
had a problem w/ one, sealed or no...the specific gravity changes, sure,
but never to the point ime of becoming "water" at 32F (or even very
close)...

They are not nearly as discharged as you think then.

As I said, a "totally discharged battery" has *water* in
it, not acid, and it freezes at 32F. But you'd have to
make a real effort to accomplish that too, and instead
there is almost always some acid, and the freeze point
is below 32F.

I've seen *lots* of batteries that have frozen and
cracked the cases. But if you live where it actually
does get cold, the battery doesn't have to be all that
discharged either... :-)

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 10:25 am, Boden wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the
lawn tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the
garage never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no
problems the following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a
sustained period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to
the battery?

Until the electrolyte freezes no damage will occur. When it freezes
it can cause the case to crack and leak, and possibly damage the
interior elements. Battery acid, depending on the state of charge,
won't freeze until it drops to -25 to -30 degrees F

A fully charged battery wont freeze until -75 a discharged battery
will freeze at 27 and it will sulfate and ruin the battery, with car
electronics and dirt on the battery they self dischage so the freeze
point goes up.

The freeze points are low, but ... they aren't consistant and outside a
lab I've never seen finite figures, only empiracal data. It depends on
too many things to state that a battery won't freeze until -xx degrees.
Every battery, especially from Mfr to Mfr, and depending on age/prior
use has different specs. It does seem pretty sure though that most good
batteries will last to below at least -30, often considerable lower.

"Twayne" wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
dpb wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:54 am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the
lawn tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in
the garage never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were
no problems the following springs. If the temp does go below 32
for a sustained period, does this necessarily cause irreparable
damage to the battery?
That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp
is _well_ below 0F.

--
If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if
it goes dead it
can freeze, ...

Charged or uncharged doesn't make much difference on the freeze
point--certainly not anyways near 32F, anyway...

The state of charge makes all the difference. A fully
charged lead acid battery is not going to freeze at
-60F, but a totally discharged battery has *water* in
it, and will freeze and crack the case at 32F.

Well, not at 32f because of the mix and impurities, but the temp starts

The mix is *water*, if it is discharged. The water is distilled
water. As a result the actual freeze point would indeed be very
close to 32F.

getting dangerous to batteries at some point not too far below 30F.
If you've ever noticed, the liquid in a cold, discharged battery will
turn to slush first when it freezes, and continually become more solid
as the temp drops.

That is true with just about *any* liquid that freezes.

Typically, it's best to charge batteries monthly, especially if they're

Or bettery yet, put them on a float charge, continuously.

exposed to the elements. Besides their internal rate of discharge, a
nice cold battery with dew/moisture on it can also find external paths
to discharge through.

Not likely to be significant.

As a battery discharges it becomes more and more susceptible to
freezing. Even with slush, if pressure builds up between the plates and
moves them at all, added to the normal sulfation of not being kept
charged, they can then take a quick nosedive to dead, becoming nothing
but a resistor and capacitor.

If it is only slush, there is no problem, and it will not put
pressure on the plates.

Actually I doubt that pressure on the plates is ever
much of a problem, due to the internal geometry. The
problem is pressure on the sides of the case, which will
crack.

I keep my batteries in the garage and periodically charge them
whenever the mood hits me; seems to work well. Usually I'll hold a
headlight on the posts for a minute or so, just to bring it down a bit,
so it'll charge at a higher rate. Theory is, it helps the sulfate
situation, but who knows?
You used to be able to "shock" such lead acid batteries back to
another season's use sometimes, but the last couple times I tried it, it
didn't work. The ability must have gone away with all the design
"improvements" in batteries.

My 2 ¢ anyway.

Twayne

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

S. Barker wrote:
a dead battery does IN FACT have just water in it and WILL freeze at
32 degrees. There's no disputing this. BUT, whether or not it
actually damages the battery is the variable. Some batteries will
tolerate this more than others. What happens is when the WATER
freezes, it expands and damages the lead plates. Some have more room
to move than others and will survive. Most decent quality batteries
will be damaged by freezing due to the closeness of the plates. BULGING
ends on the battery itself is a telltale sign that it has
froze at some point.

I dispute it. A fully-charged battery will freeze at about -92 F, a
completely discharged battery freezes at -16F.

S. Barker wrote:
a dead battery does IN FACT have just water in it and WILL freeze at 32
degrees. There's no disputing this. ...

Care to try a drink of the remaining fluid as a test?

--

On Jan 20, 10:57*am, (B'razeer Boobar) wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. *Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. *There were no problems the
following springs. *If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?

Don't know about your tractor, but I know that a couple of years ago I
stopped removing the battery from my car every night. It was getting
to be a pain. I mean, who wants to go out at -40F and put your
battery into your car before you start it. It's a real pain. Now I
just leave it in and it seems fine. It hasn't frozen yet.

Since your tractor battery is about the same as your car battery, I'd
only remove it if you're also removing your car battery.

Pat wrote:
On Jan 20, 10:57 am, (B'razeer Boobar) wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the
battery?

Don't know about your tractor, but I know that a couple of years ago I
stopped removing the battery from my car every night. It was getting
to be a pain. I mean, who wants to go out at -40F and put your
battery into your car before you start it. It's a real pain. Now I
just leave it in and it seems fine. It hasn't frozen yet.

Since your tractor battery is about the same as your car battery, I'd
only remove it if you're also removing your car battery.

Actually, the small lawn tractor batteries in general are and are far
from as reiably or structurally sound as a car battery. If you don't
buy a branded, top line brand of lawn tractor battery, you're likely to
see it last over about two winters before it begins to have a large
internal resistance which won't allow it to store enough energy to start
the engine any longer. Without care, cleaning and a charge prior to
storage, many of them won't even make it thru one sub-zero winter stored
outdoors. Crank-amps is a number you don't find on them for a reason;
they're variable. A-H is reasonable for comparison purposes, but, once
past the infant mortality stages, the cheap ones go south pretty
quickly.
There are a lot of reasons for it, most of which equate to cheap
internals. Thinner plates, different acids, longer times spent on the
shelf (which is nearly irrelevant to a car battery), unclean water,
several impurities from the Mfg process itself and probably a lot of
other things I'm not aware of. It's just a cheaper process using
cheaper materials. Around here, Exide makes about the longest lasting
equipment batteries; they seem to be as good as a car battery, but they
are costly compared to what you find at the big box stores, who will buy
all kinds of trash just to get them cheap sometimes.

My 2¢ again,

Twayne

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
dpb wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:54 am, dpb wrote:
B'razeer Boobar wrote:
Past couple of years I didn't remove the sealed battery from the lawn
tractor which is kept in a detached garage. Winter temp in the garage
never dropped to 32F due to mild winters. There were no problems the
following springs. If the temp does go below 32 for a sustained
period, does this necessarily cause irreparable damage to the battery?
That's an acid solution in there, not water alone...freezing temp is
_well_ below 0F.

--
If the battery is kept full charged is wont freeze if
it goes dead it
can freeze, ...
Charged or uncharged doesn't make much difference on the freeze
point--certainly not anyways near 32F, anyway...

The state of charge makes all the difference. A fully
charged lead acid battery is not going to freeze at
-60F, but a totally discharged battery has *water* in
it, and will freeze and crack the case at 32F.


My understanding of car batteries is:
Charged car batteries have lead oxide positive plates and lead negative
plates. When discharging both plates move to lead sulfate. Taking the
sulfate out of sulfuric acid leaves hydrogen which combines with oxygen
from lead oxide to form water. Whether the electrolyte turns to pure
water in a *completely* discharged battery depends on whether the
reaction is limited by availability of lead/lead oxide or availability
of sulfuric acid. A completely discharged battery could have acid left
but only lead sulfide accessible on one of the plates. But most (or
all?) of the sulfuric acid becomes water. And I agree state of charge
makes a big difference.

--
bud--