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Default Removing Roll Pins

I just had to replace the spring on a trailer jack. This is the
spring that snaps the lock lever into the hole on the frame to lock
the jack in place, either down for jacking, or up for hauling. I
thought this would be simple. I had an old drum brake spring that was
almost the same size, so all I had to do was remove the roll pin,
replace the spring and put the roll pin back.

WRONG..... This turned out to be a nightmare of a job.
The roll pin would not come out. I'm sure it was rusty, so I soaked
it with PB Blaster. I hammered on it with a punch, and it got a flat
end, meaning it would not pass thru the hole. But I figured I'd
hammer it loose and then remove it from the other side. Instead, it
broke off. I went to the other side and broke that side too. I took
my grinder and flattened the end of the pin to remove the spring and
the whole thing from the jack. I placed the part in my vice and
hammered for a half hour, and it would not budge. Now this is just a
1/8" roll pin, nothing large, so common sense says it should have come
out by hammering.

I placed the part in my drill press and decided to drill it out. I
applied PB Blaster as a cutting oil and began drilling. The bit
penetrated less than 1/32 of an inch before the drill bit just turned
red and shattered. What ever metal those roll pins are made of, is
extremely hard. I got another bit, and a minute later the tip of the
bit was flat, and I had only gone in another 1/32 of an inch. Teo
more bits and I was a little more than halfway thru the 1/2" thick
piece of steel. I found a slightly larger bit, and one that was a top
quality bit. That one threw sparks, but kept biting in, very slowly.

90% of the way thru the 1/2" shaft, that bit broke. I did not have
any more bits that would fit. I finally took the broken piece of the
bit and applied as much pressure on the drill press handle as I could.
About the time the bit was glowing red, it broke thru. Total time
spent drilling - almost 3 hours. Total time on entire job, 4 hours 20
min. Plus $10 to $15 worth of drill bits. (Next time I'll replace
the jack).

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed? No matter what
you do, they are going to flatten on the end, and of course then they
dont come out. I'm sure my rusty one did not help, but still, it
should have come out easier than it did.

The rest of the job was easy. I installed the new spring, and
replaced the roll pin with a cotter pin rather than another roll pin.
Cotter pins come out much easier and can be drilled out with any bit
if needed. If I never see another roll pin, it will be a good thing.

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Default Removing Roll Pins


wrote in message
...
I just had to replace the spring on a trailer jack. This is the
spring that snaps the lock lever into the hole on the frame to lock
the jack in place, either down for jacking, or up for hauling. I
thought this would be simple. I had an old drum brake spring that was
almost the same size, so all I had to do was remove the roll pin,
replace the spring and put the roll pin back.

WRONG..... This turned out to be a nightmare of a job.
The roll pin would not come out. I'm sure it was rusty, so I soaked
it with PB Blaster. I hammered on it with a punch, and it got a flat
end, meaning it would not pass thru the hole. But I figured I'd
hammer it loose and then remove it from the other side. Instead, it
broke off. I went to the other side and broke that side too. I took
my grinder and flattened the end of the pin to remove the spring and
the whole thing from the jack. I placed the part in my vice and
hammered for a half hour, and it would not budge. Now this is just a
1/8" roll pin, nothing large, so common sense says it should have come
out by hammering.

I placed the part in my drill press and decided to drill it out. I
applied PB Blaster as a cutting oil and began drilling. The bit
penetrated less than 1/32 of an inch before the drill bit just turned
red and shattered. What ever metal those roll pins are made of, is
extremely hard. I got another bit, and a minute later the tip of the
bit was flat, and I had only gone in another 1/32 of an inch. Teo
more bits and I was a little more than halfway thru the 1/2" thick
piece of steel. I found a slightly larger bit, and one that was a top
quality bit. That one threw sparks, but kept biting in, very slowly.

90% of the way thru the 1/2" shaft, that bit broke. I did not have
any more bits that would fit. I finally took the broken piece of the
bit and applied as much pressure on the drill press handle as I could.
About the time the bit was glowing red, it broke thru. Total time
spent drilling - almost 3 hours. Total time on entire job, 4 hours 20
min. Plus $10 to $15 worth of drill bits. (Next time I'll replace
the jack).

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed? No matter what
you do, they are going to flatten on the end, and of course then they
dont come out. I'm sure my rusty one did not help, but still, it
should have come out easier than it did.

The rest of the job was easy. I installed the new spring, and
replaced the roll pin with a cotter pin rather than another roll pin.
Cotter pins come out much easier and can be drilled out with any bit
if needed. If I never see another roll pin, it will be a good thing.


Any chance the roll pin was bent? They are spring steel. Hard and tough, as
you know

Al


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Default Removing Roll Pins

Big Al wrote:

snip

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed?



Any chance the roll pin was bent? They are spring steel. Hard and tough, as
you know

Al



There are roll pin punches designed for this purpose. Like Al says, roll
pins -- especially the higher-quality types -- are hard and tough. Like
spring steel, almost (high carbon steel, methinks). If the roll pin is
rusted, seized, or otherwise immobilized, even a roll pin punch might
not work.

Look for another thread on alt.home.repair with the subject "Extracting
broken bolt / screw" in which I ramble on about how to remove a broken
bolt with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch, even if you don't know how to
weld. You could apply the same technique to frozen roll pins.

The roll pin punch is basically the same as a pin punch or drift, but
with a rounded convex "bump" to help keep the punch more or less
centered in the roll pin. Below is a crude "usenet art" diagram of the
punching end, not the hammering end (to the right of the diagram), of a
roll pin punch. Visualize the solid punching end of a pin punch:

--------
|
) -- bump keeps punch centered
|
--------

The above attempt is not to scale. On the roll pin punches that I own,
the bump takes up most of the punch's business end, leaving only a thin
margin which contacts the roll pin. They work pretty well, generally,
but they won't work in every situation.
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Default Removing Roll Pins

On Dec 30, 8:15�pm, maxodyne wrote:
Big Al wrote:

snip



How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed?


Any chance the roll pin was bent? They are spring steel. Hard and tough, as
you know


Al


There are roll pin punches designed for this purpose. Like Al says, roll
pins -- especially the higher-quality types -- are hard and tough. Like
spring steel, almost (high carbon steel, methinks). If the roll pin is
rusted, seized, or otherwise immobilized, even a roll pin punch might
not work.

Look for another thread on alt.home.repair with the subject "Extracting
broken bolt / screw" in which I ramble on about how to remove a broken
bolt with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch, even if you don't know how to
weld. You could apply the same technique to frozen roll pins.

The roll pin punch is basically the same as a pin punch or drift, but
with a rounded convex "bump" to help keep the punch more or less
centered in the roll pin. Below is a crude "usenet art" diagram of the
punching end, not the hammering end (to the right of the diagram), of a
roll pin punch. Visualize the solid punching end of a pin punch:

� � --------
� � � � � � |
� � � � � � �) �-- bump keeps punch centered
� � � � � � |
� � --------

The above attempt is not to scale. On the roll pin punches that I own,
the bump takes up most of the punch's business end, leaving only a thin
margin which contacts the roll pin. They work pretty well, generally,
but they won't work in every situation.


I used to fix a machine that used roll pins that customer abuse could
break but worse bend

often I replaced assemblies cause the pin couldnt be removed. frankly
i have hated roll pins ever since.

they rate right up there with allen screws some jerk tightens till the
wrench goes click click cl;ick

If you have something that uses roll pins its a good idea to give it a
shot of oil on a regular basis


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Default Removing Roll Pins

Describe the pin. Is it a roll pin or a split pin?
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wrote in message
...
I just had to replace the spring on a trailer jack. This is the
spring that snaps the lock lever into the hole on the frame to lock
the jack in place, either down for jacking, or up for hauling. I
thought this would be simple. I had an old drum brake spring that was
almost the same size, so all I had to do was remove the roll pin,
replace the spring and put the roll pin back.

WRONG..... This turned out to be a nightmare of a job.
The roll pin would not come out. I'm sure it was rusty, so I soaked
it with PB Blaster. I hammered on it with a punch, and it got a flat
end, meaning it would not pass thru the hole. But I figured I'd
hammer it loose and then remove it from the other side. Instead, it
broke off. I went to the other side and broke that side too. I took
my grinder and flattened the end of the pin to remove the spring and
the whole thing from the jack. I placed the part in my vice and
hammered for a half hour, and it would not budge. Now this is just a
1/8" roll pin, nothing large, so common sense says it should have come
out by hammering.

I placed the part in my drill press and decided to drill it out. I
applied PB Blaster as a cutting oil and began drilling. The bit
penetrated less than 1/32 of an inch before the drill bit just turned
red and shattered. What ever metal those roll pins are made of, is
extremely hard. I got another bit, and a minute later the tip of the
bit was flat, and I had only gone in another 1/32 of an inch. Teo
more bits and I was a little more than halfway thru the 1/2" thick
piece of steel. I found a slightly larger bit, and one that was a top
quality bit. That one threw sparks, but kept biting in, very slowly.

90% of the way thru the 1/2" shaft, that bit broke. I did not have
any more bits that would fit. I finally took the broken piece of the
bit and applied as much pressure on the drill press handle as I could.
About the time the bit was glowing red, it broke thru. Total time
spent drilling - almost 3 hours. Total time on entire job, 4 hours 20
min. Plus $10 to $15 worth of drill bits. (Next time I'll replace
the jack).

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed? No matter what
you do, they are going to flatten on the end, and of course then they
dont come out. I'm sure my rusty one did not help, but still, it
should have come out easier than it did.

The rest of the job was easy. I installed the new spring, and
replaced the roll pin with a cotter pin rather than another roll pin.
Cotter pins come out much easier and can be drilled out with any bit
if needed. If I never see another roll pin, it will be a good thing.

I have learned a few things about these situations. Pressing is often more
effective than driving. Driving on the end of a tight press screw can help.
If you are going to drive it with a hammer and it is really tight, don't
play around with it. Get the biggest punch that can fit and the biggest
hammer you can swing well. Hold the punch well centered and well in line. As
my Dad used to say, "Hit it like you mean it". Don't try to tap it out with
many small blows as that is what mushrooms the end. Another important point
often overlooked is to be sure you have the stationary part well supported
close to the work area. Any springiness, which all metal has, will work to
lessen the effect of your hammer. If nothing else, have a helper hold a
heavy axe or hammer tightly against the back side. You have to use inertia
to your benefit.

Don Young


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Default Removing Roll Pins

maxodyne wrote:
Big Al wrote:

snip

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed?



Any chance the roll pin was bent? They are spring steel. Hard and
tough, as you know

Al



There are roll pin punches designed for this purpose. Like Al says,
roll pins -- especially the higher-quality types -- are hard and
tough. Like spring steel, almost (high carbon steel, methinks). If
the roll pin is rusted, seized, or otherwise immobilized, even a roll
pin punch might not work.

Look for another thread on alt.home.repair with the subject
"Extracting broken bolt / screw" in which I ramble on about how to
remove a broken bolt with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch, even if you
don't know how to weld. You could apply the same technique to frozen
roll pins.
The roll pin punch is basically the same as a pin punch or drift, but
with a rounded convex "bump" to help keep the punch more or less
centered in the roll pin. Below is a crude "usenet art" diagram of the
punching end, not the hammering end (to the right of the diagram), of
a roll pin punch. Visualize the solid punching end of a pin punch:

--------
|
) -- bump keeps punch centered
|
--------

The above attempt is not to scale. On the roll pin punches that I own,
the bump takes up most of the punch's business end, leaving only a
thin margin which contacts the roll pin. They work pretty well,
generally, but they won't work in every situation.


Thanks! I've wondered for YEARS what the heck some "donated" tools I
picked up were for!


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Default Removing Roll Pins

On Dec 30, 6:30*pm, wrote:
I just had to replace the spring on a trailer jack. *This is the
spring that snaps the lock lever into the hole on the frame to lock
the jack in place, either down for jacking, or up for hauling. *I
thought this would be simple. *I had an old drum brake spring that was
almost the same size, so all I had to do was remove the roll pin,
replace the spring and put the roll pin back. *

WRONG..... *This turned out to be a nightmare of a job.
The roll pin would not come out. *I'm sure it was rusty, so I soaked
it with PB Blaster. *I hammered on it with a punch, and it got a flat
end, meaning it would not pass thru the hole. *But I figured I'd
hammer it loose and then remove it from the other side. Instead, it
broke off. *I went to the other side and broke that side too. *I took
my grinder and flattened the end of the pin to remove the spring and
the whole thing from the jack. *I placed the part in my vice and
hammered for a half hour, and it would not budge. *Now this is just a
1/8" roll pin, nothing large, so common sense says it should have come
out by hammering.

I placed the part in my drill press and decided to drill it out. *I
applied PB Blaster as a cutting oil and began drilling. *The bit
penetrated less than 1/32 of an inch before the drill bit just turned
red and shattered. *What ever metal those roll pins are made of, is
extremely hard. *I got another bit, and a minute later the tip of the
bit was flat, and I had only gone in another 1/32 of an inch. *Teo
more bits and I was a little more than halfway thru the 1/2" thick
piece of steel. *I found a slightly larger bit, and one that was a top
quality bit. *That one threw sparks, but kept biting in, very slowly.

90% of the way thru the 1/2" shaft, that bit broke. *I did not have
any more bits that would fit. *I finally took the broken piece of the
bit and applied as much pressure on the drill press handle as I could.
About the time the bit was glowing red, it broke thru. *Total time
spent drilling - almost 3 hours. *Total time on entire job, 4 hours 20
min. *Plus $10 to $15 worth of drill bits. *(Next time I'll replace
the jack).

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed? *No matter what
you do, they are going to flatten on the end, and of course then they
dont come out. *I'm sure my rusty one did not help, but still, it
should have come out easier than it did.

The rest of the job was easy. *I installed the new spring, and
replaced the roll pin with a cotter pin rather than another roll pin.
Cotter pins come out much easier and can be drilled out with any bit
if needed. *If I never see another roll pin, it will be a good thing.


You should have used a regular roll pin punch. The best ones are made
by Mayhew. You'll find them at SnapOn, Mac, Matco, Grainger, McMaster,
places like that. Most sets you buy will will last a lifetime, so
don't sweat the price. I have some in my tool box that have survived
three decades of use in a busy repair shop.
Your technique for removal was all brute force and awkwardness. Here's
how to do it right:: first soak in penetrant, insert proper Mayhew
punch , tap firmly. If no go, repeat. If still no go, don't fool with
it, get out the torch, bring the parts to a dull red heat, cool and
soak with penetrant and the roll pin will tap right out. Replace with
a new roll pin, same size or next size larger, resizing hole if needed
for press fit. Using anything else but a roll pin is foolish, because
it supplies considerable strength to the pivot area where installed.
Using a cotter pin or a bent nail is only asking for future trouble.
HTH

Joe
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"maxodyne" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:57:11 -0500,
wrote:


Describe the pin. Is it a roll pin or a split pin?



What's a split pin?
I looked up "roll pin" on google, went to images.
It's a roll pin !!!!

Repeat: What's a split pin?


AKA cotter pin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotter_pin

Besides cotter pins, of which there are at least two entirely different
kinds, I am aware of two distinctly different types of "roll pins". The most
common type is made of relatively heavy spring steel formed in a partial
circle with a lengthwise slot. The other one is made of several turns of
relatively thin spring steel without any slot, kinda like a short wide clock
spring wound up real tight. The first squeezes the slot narrower when
compressed and the second rolls the layers around themselves.

Don Young


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In article
,
Joe wrote:

...get out the torch, bring the parts to a dull red heat,...


Then once you get the roll pin out, throw away the whole unit since you
just destroyed the temper of the steel.
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:58:39 -0600, "Don Young"
wrote:


"maxodyne" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:57:11 -0500,
wrote:


Describe the pin. Is it a roll pin or a split pin?


What's a split pin?
I looked up "roll pin" on google, went to images.
It's a roll pin !!!!

Repeat: What's a split pin?


AKA cotter pin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotter_pin

Besides cotter pins, of which there are at least two entirely different
kinds, I am aware of two distinctly different types of "roll pins". The most
common type is made of relatively heavy spring steel formed in a partial
circle with a lengthwise slot. The other one is made of several turns of
relatively thin spring steel without any slot, kinda like a short wide clock
spring wound up real tight. The first squeezes the slot narrower when
compressed and the second rolls the layers around themselves.

Don Young


Oh, a cotter pin. Why didn't he just say that?
That's what I used to replace the roll pin, and it worked just as well
for this situation. Cotter pins are not as hard to remove and if they
need to be drilled out, they are a soft metal.

The roll pin I dealt with was the first one you said. The one with
the lengthwise split in the side. And I sure found out how hard that
steel is, by destroying 4 drill bits. I still cant believe that I was
able to finish the job with a broken off bit with no tip on it. By
that time I was so fed up with the whole job, I just burned it thru
the last 1/16 inch or so. The remaining piece of the bit was glowing
red when I finished.
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On Jan 1, 8:42 am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

... Oh, a cotter pin. Why didn't he just say that?
That's what I used to replace the roll pin, and it worked just as well
for this situation. Cotter pins are not as hard to remove and if they
need to be drilled out, they are a soft metal.


...

There was a reason for using a roll pin in the original -- probably
specifically for that hardness. Substituting a cotter is likely not a
good idea.

--


The drills break because of the split in the pin catching the bit and
torquing it.
Backing-up (as suggested) is a good idea. We used a "bucking bar", a
slotted long heavy bar on the opposite side to increase the blow of
the hammer.
The key is a helper: one backs-up (or holds unit in a vise); and one
strikes the blow (and it needs to be a good one!)

There are also tapered pins that have to be broached (if used in a new
application) to taper both shaft and arm.

Many, many years ago I worked on mechanical NCR cash registers.
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:42:57 -0800, maxodyne
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:57:11 -0500, wrote:


Describe the pin. Is it a roll pin or a split pin?



What's a split pin?
I looked up "roll pin" on google, went to images.
It's a roll pin !!!!

Repeat: What's a split pin?


AKA cotter pin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotter_pin


Since when has anybody called a cotter pin a split pin?
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wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:42:57 -0800, maxodyne
wrote:


wrote:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:57:11 -0500,
wrote:



Describe the pin. Is it a roll pin or a split pin?


What's a split pin?
I looked up "roll pin" on google, went to images.
It's a roll pin !!!!

Repeat: What's a split pin?


AKA cotter pin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotter_pin



Since when has anybody called a cotter pin a split pin?


I've heard them called that. I think it's a regional thing... Like creek
or stream? river or bayou? What I would call a creek, my relatives in
North Carolina call a branch. Or "brainche", as they pronounce it.
"Cotter" sounds like someone's last name to me. If so, then Cotter's
"pin" resembled a pin that had been "split". Dunno.

All Kleenexes are tissues, but not all tissues are Kleenexes. More or less.

Perhaps the real answer is lost to antiquity. Anyone know the origin of
the "Cotter" pin?
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Smitty Two wrote:
barleypop5 wrote:

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed?


Drift punch. It helps to have a complete set, so you can use the correct
diameter, which should be only slightly smaller than the O.D. of the
pin. Is that what you used?


The drift punches I'm familiar with are tapered & used to align
holes in two pieces of material.

The straight sided punch used to drive pins I've always known as a
"pin punch".

R,
Tom Q.
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In article ,
Tom Quackenbush wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:
barleypop5 wrote:

How in the hell are roll pins supposed to be removed?


Drift punch. It helps to have a complete set, so you can use the correct
diameter, which should be only slightly smaller than the O.D. of the
pin. Is that what you used?


The drift punches I'm familiar with are tapered & used to align
holes in two pieces of material.

The straight sided punch used to drive pins I've always known as a
"pin punch".

R,
Tom Q.


Could be. I learned the term from my boss thirty years ago. He got most
things right, but he may have gotten that one wrong...
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