http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ry.murder.kmov

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the Dominoes that
the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o But
he did have a concealed-carry permit.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

On Dec 29, 1:05*pm, "Dave Bugg" wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...pizza.delivery...

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the Dominoes that
the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o *But
he did have a concealed-carry permit.

The pizza dirver must be black or Quanell X would be protesting,

Dave Bugg wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ry.murder.kmov

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the
Dominoes that the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o
But he did have a concealed-carry permit.

What's a hoot is that his Concealed Handgun License was from another state,
which Missouri recognized (Missouri recognizes permits from all states).

Not all states issue non-resident CHLs. Florida does and a non-resident
Florida CHL costs $117, good for five years. With a Florida license, you can
get a New Hampshire CHL for only $10.00.

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:05:55 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ry.murder.kmov

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the Dominoes that
the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o But
he did have a concealed-carry permit.

Doesn't Dominoes have a two for one? The delivery guy missed his
chance; nor, will he see it again to give twice as much lead.

No word if he fired at the runner.

(I lost my video of the Pizza Bomber )
Oren
--

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:18:29 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:05:55 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ry.murder.kmov

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the Dominoes that
the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o But
he did have a concealed-carry permit.

Doesn't Dominoes have a two for one? The delivery guy missed his
chance; nor, will he see it again to give twice as much lead.

No word if he fired at the runner.

(I lost my video of the Pizza Bomber )
Oren

No charges against the hero driver. It is time we start pushing back.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...C?OpenDocument

The pizza deliveryman who shot and killed a robber hasn't been charged
with any crime -- but the dead robber's accomplice was charged today.

That alleged accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, ran from the scene after
his friend was shot in Pagedale on Thursday night.

Reese, of the 1200 block of Sutter in University City, was charged
today in St. Louis County in connection with his friend's death --
even though police say he didn't pull the trigger.

The charges against Reese are second-degree murder, first-degree
robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

Reese is being held in the St. Louis County jail in lieu of $250,000
bond.

Reese is charged with murder because, under state law, he was
participating in a crime during which a person was killed.

The robber who died was identified as Brian Smith, 19, of the 600
block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson.

The Domino's pizza deliveryman, whose name has not been released,
delivered an order at 7 p.m. Thursday to a phony address in the 6500
block of Julian Avenue in Pagedale. Two armed men approached the
driver on foot and announced a robbery, police said.

The driver pulled his own pistol and fired shots, striking one of the
men.

The second robber ran off. On Friday, police arrested Reese.

Police say Reese ran off with the pizzas, soda and the deliveryman's
wallet. Police recovered the stolen items at Reese's home.

St. Louis County Police Officer Tracy Panus, a department spokeswoman,
said the pizza deliveryman may have been fired at but was not wounded.
She said officers found a pistol at the scene that had not been fired.

The deliveryman has a valid permit to carry a weapon and appears to
have acted in self-defense, police say.

On Dec 29, 4:34*pm, Terry wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:18:29 -0800, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:05:55 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...pizza.delivery...

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the Dominoes that
the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o *But
he did have a concealed-carry permit.

Doesn't Dominoes have a two for one? The delivery guy missed his
chance; nor, will he see it again to give twice as much lead.

No word if he fired at the runner.

(I lost my video of the Pizza Bomber *)
Oren

No charges against the hero driver. *It is time we start pushing back.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...der/story/A8BD...

The pizza deliveryman who shot and killed a robber hasn't been charged
with any crime -- but the dead robber's accomplice was charged today.

That alleged accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, ran from the scene after
his friend was shot in Pagedale on Thursday night.

Reese, of the 1200 block of Sutter in University City, was charged
today in St. Louis County in connection with his friend's death --
even though police say he didn't pull the trigger.

The charges against Reese are second-degree murder, first-degree
robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

Reese is being held in the St. Louis County jail in lieu of $250,000
bond.

Reese is charged with murder because, under state law, he was
participating in a crime during which a person was killed.

The robber who died was identified as Brian Smith, 19, of the 600
block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson.

The Domino's pizza deliveryman, whose name has not been released,
delivered an order at 7 p.m. Thursday to a phony address in the 6500
block of Julian Avenue in Pagedale. Two armed men approached the
driver on foot and announced a robbery, police said.

The driver pulled his own pistol and fired shots, striking one of the
men.

The second robber ran off. On Friday, police arrested Reese.

Police say Reese ran off with the pizzas, soda and the deliveryman's
wallet. Police recovered the stolen items at Reese's home.

St. Louis County Police Officer Tracy Panus, a department spokeswoman,
said the pizza deliveryman may have been fired at but was not wounded.
She said officers found a pistol at the scene that had not been fired.

The deliveryman has a valid permit to carry a weapon and appears to
have acted in self-defense, police say.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Reminds me of the case back in the early 90s when I was working the
jail. Whitman Co, Wa. Two perps tried the same trick, jumped the
delivery guy from out of the bushes when he rang the door bell. They
should have checked before setting it up. He was a WSU football
player and the cops had an easy collar after he finished working them
over.

Harry K

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:55:51 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Dec 29, 4:34*pm, Terry wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:18:29 -0800, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:05:55 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...pizza.delivery...

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the Dominoes that
the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o *But
he did have a concealed-carry permit.

Doesn't Dominoes have a two for one? The delivery guy missed his
chance; nor, will he see it again to give twice as much lead.

No word if he fired at the runner.

(I lost my video of the Pizza Bomber *)
Oren

No charges against the hero driver. *It is time we start pushing back.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...der/story/A8BD...

The pizza deliveryman who shot and killed a robber hasn't been charged
with any crime -- but the dead robber's accomplice was charged today.

That alleged accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, ran from the scene after
his friend was shot in Pagedale on Thursday night.

Reese, of the 1200 block of Sutter in University City, was charged
today in St. Louis County in connection with his friend's death --
even though police say he didn't pull the trigger.

The charges against Reese are second-degree murder, first-degree
robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

Reese is being held in the St. Louis County jail in lieu of $250,000
bond.

Reese is charged with murder because, under state law, he was
participating in a crime during which a person was killed.

The robber who died was identified as Brian Smith, 19, of the 600
block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson.

The Domino's pizza deliveryman, whose name has not been released,
delivered an order at 7 p.m. Thursday to a phony address in the 6500
block of Julian Avenue in Pagedale. Two armed men approached the
driver on foot and announced a robbery, police said.

The driver pulled his own pistol and fired shots, striking one of the
men.

The second robber ran off. On Friday, police arrested Reese.

Police say Reese ran off with the pizzas, soda and the deliveryman's
wallet. Police recovered the stolen items at Reese's home.

St. Louis County Police Officer Tracy Panus, a department spokeswoman,
said the pizza deliveryman may have been fired at but was not wounded.
She said officers found a pistol at the scene that had not been fired.

The deliveryman has a valid permit to carry a weapon and appears to
have acted in self-defense, police say.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Reminds me of the case back in the early 90s when I was working the
jail. Whitman Co, Wa. Two perps tried the same trick, jumped the
delivery guy from out of the bushes when he rang the door bell. They
should have checked before setting it up. He was a WSU football
player and the cops had an easy collar after he finished working them
over.

Harry K

Reminds me of once, when a Nigerian Prince tried to bite me and I did
a body slam on him. Then I was sued for brutality.

He dropped the case as I was able to explain the blood on the widow
frame - he bleed after he broke my choke grip and slammed his lip into
the metal window frame.

You worked a jail??!
Oren
--

In , Terry wrote in part:

Reese, of the 1200 block of Sutter in University City, was charged
today in St. Louis County in connection with his friend's death --
even though police say he didn't pull the trigger.

The charges against Reese are second-degree murder, first-degree
robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

Reese is being held in the St. Louis County jail in lieu of $250,000
bond.

Reese is charged with murder because, under state law, he was
participating in a crime during which a person was killed.

The robber who died was identified as Brian Smith, 19, of the 600
block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson.

It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I see
as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while committing a
felony or in associated with committing a felony.

I do see this charge being abused. If someone accidentally kills
someone other than an intended victim while using or brandishing a deadly
weapon, then I would agree with felony murder. (I would agree with a
higher degree of murder for wrongfully pointing a gun at someone and
experiencing "accidental discharge", such as during a robbery or attempted
robbery.) I would agree with felony murder for a robber's getaway car
driver killing someone via reckless driving.
But if a robber gets a criminal partner killed by an intended victim,
then I only see the robber being guilty of robbery and conspiracy. And if
a police officer slips on a banana peel and suffers a fatal head injury
while chasing a robber, then I don't see the robber being guilty of felony
murder there (though I would support maximum sentence for the robbery and
any weapons offenses and any conspiracy and any other crimes that are
actual illegal activities that the robber voluntarily performed).
It appears to me that a "felony murder" is only committed if the felon
performs a manslaughter. If a robber's partner gets killed in a botched
robbery, I don't see any unlawful homicide so much as the unfortunate
criminal partner suffering a risked effect of doing illegal risky
business, so the surviving robber is only guilty of robbery and conspiracy
and maybe weapons offenses if the surviving robber used or brandished a
weapon, and whatever moving violations are committed while driving a
getaway vehicle (often good for a major license suspension, which I
believe should be served starting after getting out of prison).

DISCLAIMER: Most murders and manslaughters in the USA are violations of
the various laws of the 50 states, and there is no way that I am going to
know what all the laws saying anything about homicide are in all 50 of
them. My experiences of crime definitions are in Pensylvania, and I did
not get any formal training on law in such areas anywhere.

- Don Klipstein )

Don Klipstein wrote:

It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I
see as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while
committing a felony or in associated with committing a felony.

No, "felony murder" is a homicide committed during the commission of a
felony.


I do see this charge being abused.

Agreed. If people would quit committing felonies, there wouldn't be any
"felony murders."

If someone accidentally kills
someone other than an intended victim while using or brandishing a
deadly weapon, then I would agree with felony murder. (I would agree
with a higher degree of murder for wrongfully pointing a gun at
someone and experiencing "accidental discharge", such as during a
robbery or attempted robbery.)


I would agree with felony murder for
a robber's getaway car driver killing someone via reckless driving.

But if a robber gets a criminal partner killed by an intended victim,
then I only see the robber being guilty of robbery and conspiracy.

And if a police officer slips on a banana peel and suffers a fatal
head injury while chasing a robber, then I don't see the robber being
guilty of felony murder ... It appears to me that a "felony
murder" is only committed if the felon performs a manslaughter.

That word again. "Manslaughter" is a particular form of homicide. Homicide
is the killing of one human through the act or ommission of another.
Generally there are five types of homicide: Murder, manslaughter, negligent,
justifiable, and excusable. Some jurisdictions have subdivsions of these
five ("Capital Murder," 2nd Degree Manslaughter, etc.).

If a
robber's partner gets killed in a botched robbery, I don't see any
unlawful homicide so much as the unfortunate criminal partner
suffering a risked effect of doing illegal risky business, so the
surviving robber is only guilty of robbery and conspiracy and maybe
weapons offenses if the surviving robber used or brandished a weapon,
and whatever moving violations are committed while driving a getaway
vehicle (often good for a major license suspension, which I believe
should be served starting after getting out of prison).

So what should the penalty or charge be for the driver of the getaway car
when all his mates were killed by the cops?

"Felony Murder" is a type of corporate guilt, and the definition has been a
part of the common law for over 500 years. In my state (and probably others)
the concept is extended to riots and disturbances by crowds. That is,
everyone who participates in a riot is equally guilty of any act undertaken
by any participant. Years ago, a riot took place at a black university and a
police officer was killed. 1,100 people were arrested and charged with
capital murder (death penalty).

You may be correct in that the charge is not exactly "fair," but it tends to
discourage the planners of multi-person nastiness from enlisting whackos.

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

Years ago, a riot took place at a black university and a
police officer was killed. 1,100 people were arrested and charged with
capital murder (death penalty).

How many of them were convicted?

On Dec 29, 9:31*pm, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:55:51 -0800 (PST), Harry K





wrote:
On Dec 29, 4:34*pm, Terry wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:18:29 -0800, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:05:55 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...pizza.delivery....

The last number dialed on the dead robber's cell-phone was the Dominoes that
the delivery guy worked at.

No word on whether the delivery guy was 'professionally trained'. :-o *But
he did have a concealed-carry permit.

Doesn't Dominoes have a two for one? The delivery guy missed his
chance; nor, will he see it again to give twice as much lead.

No word if he fired at the runner.

(I lost my video of the Pizza Bomber *)
Oren

No charges against the hero driver. *It is time we start pushing back..

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...der/story/A8BD...

The pizza deliveryman who shot and killed a robber hasn't been charged
with any crime -- but the dead robber's accomplice was charged today.

That alleged accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, ran from the scene after
his friend was shot in Pagedale on Thursday night.

Reese, of the 1200 block of Sutter in University City, was charged
today in St. Louis County in connection with his friend's death --
even though police say he didn't pull the trigger.

The charges against Reese are second-degree murder, first-degree
robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

Reese is being held in the St. Louis County jail in lieu of $250,000
bond.

Reese is charged with murder because, under state law, he was
participating in a crime during which a person was killed.

The robber who died was identified as Brian Smith, 19, of the 600
block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson.

The Domino's pizza deliveryman, whose name has not been released,
delivered an order at 7 p.m. Thursday to a phony address in the 6500
block of Julian Avenue in Pagedale. Two armed men approached the
driver on foot and announced a robbery, police said.

The driver pulled his own pistol and fired shots, striking one of the
men.

The second robber ran off. On Friday, police arrested Reese.

Police say Reese ran off with the pizzas, soda and the deliveryman's
wallet. Police recovered the stolen items at Reese's home.

St. Louis County Police Officer Tracy Panus, a department spokeswoman,
said the pizza deliveryman may have been fired at but was not wounded.
She said officers found a pistol at the scene that had not been fired.

The deliveryman has a valid permit to carry a weapon and appears to
have acted in self-defense, police say.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Reminds me of the case back in the early 90s when I was working the
jail. *Whitman Co, Wa. *Two perps tried the same trick, jumped the
delivery guy from out of the bushes when he rang the door bell. *They
should have checked before setting it up. *He was a WSU football
player and the cops had an easy collar after he finished working them
over.

Harry K

Reminds me of once, when a Nigerian Prince tried to bite me and I did
a body slam on him. Then I was sued for brutality.

He dropped the case as I was able to explain the blood on the widow
frame - he bleed after he broke my choke grip and slammed his lip into
the metal window frame.

You worked a jail??!
Oren
--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, 15 years, jail/dispatch/court bailiff - just a small county jail
(max beds 51). It was a 'pre-retirement' job as I got laid off from
the good one due to the recession in 1985/6

That's were I learned that if it weren't for booze and drugs there
would be almost no crime. If it weren't for those, the jail would
have been empty 90% of the time. Also that a lot of the alcoholics/
druggies were real nice people when dried out. Also that a jail tour
would not cure them. I can't recall one case of one of them going
straight after finishing out their sentence.

Harry K

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:10:09 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:


-snip-
Years ago, a riot took place at a black university and a
police officer was killed. 1,100 people were arrested and charged with
capital murder (death penalty).

So vague that I have to ask for the smallest of details so I can read
about it. Can I have a year or a university- or even a decade &
state?

Jim

Harry K wrote:

Reminds me of the case back in the early 90s when I was working the
jail. Whitman Co, Wa. Two perps tried the same trick, jumped the
delivery guy from out of the bushes when he rang the door bell. They
should have checked before setting it up. He was a WSU football
player and the cops had an easy collar after he finished working them
over.

Alllrighhhhhtttt!!!! Go, Cougs :-O
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:10:09 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:


-snip-
Years ago, a riot took place at a black university and a
police officer was killed. 1,100 people were arrested and charged
with capital murder (death penalty).

So vague that I have to ask for the smallest of details so I can read
about it. Can I have a year or a university- or even a decade &
state?

Jim

May 1967, Texas Southern University, Houston, Texas.

This was pre-internet, so existing reports are sketchy. Below are three
mentions of the incident - there are more.

I was with the sheriff's department at the time. We were not directly
involved, but followed the events closely. What started the event was
somewhat weird: A Houston police patrol car stopped to see what a group of
students were doing huddled in a circle on the sidewalk (a major street
bisects the campus). As the two officers were getting out of their car,
someone threw a watermelon at their car, breaking its windshield! (I am NOT
making this up.) The two officers ducked back into their car and radioed for
assistance. Things just snowballed after that.

The police chief at the time, Herman Short (who, believe it or not, died
today Dec 30th), was not, er, racially sensitive. One of his quotes
(paraphrasing): "Anybody wearing a gun, stopping traffic on a public street,
and 'soliciting' donations to the Black Panthers or anything else is going
to die."

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/...s/RR/jcr2.html

http://myreader.co.uk/msg/12113450.aspx

http://www.outreach.olemiss.edu/Free.../Timeline.html

In article , HeyBub wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I
see as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while
committing a felony or in associated with committing a felony.

No, "felony murder" is a homicide committed during the commission of a
felony.

I do see this charge being abused.

Agreed. If people would quit committing felonies, there wouldn't be any
"felony murders."

If someone accidentally kills
someone other than an intended victim while using or brandishing a
deadly weapon, then I would agree with felony murder. (I would agree
with a higher degree of murder for wrongfully pointing a gun at
someone and experiencing "accidental discharge", such as during a
robbery or attempted robbery.)

I would agree with felony murder for
a robber's getaway car driver killing someone via reckless driving.

But if a robber gets a criminal partner killed by an intended victim,
then I only see the robber being guilty of robbery and conspiracy.

And if a police officer slips on a banana peel and suffers a fatal
head injury while chasing a robber, then I don't see the robber being
guilty of felony murder ... It appears to me that a "felony
murder" is only committed if the felon performs a manslaughter.

That word again. "Manslaughter" is a particular form of homicide. Homicide
is the killing of one human through the act or ommission of another.
Generally there are five types of homicide: Murder, manslaughter, negligent,
justifiable, and excusable. Some jurisdictions have subdivsions of these
five ("Capital Murder," 2nd Degree Manslaughter, etc.).

If a
robber's partner gets killed in a botched robbery, I don't see any
unlawful homicide so much as the unfortunate criminal partner
suffering a risked effect of doing illegal risky business, so the
surviving robber is only guilty of robbery and conspiracy and maybe
weapons offenses if the surviving robber used or brandished a weapon,
and whatever moving violations are committed while driving a getaway
vehicle (often good for a major license suspension, which I believe
should be served starting after getting out of prison).

So what should the penalty or charge be for the driver of the getaway car
when all his mates were killed by the cops?

Conspiracy and robbery, maybe reckless driving and moving violations,
any weapons offenses if found in possession of any, receiving stolen
property.

But the getaway car driver did not commit homicide of his criminal
partners - the cops did, maybe justifiably.

"Felony Murder" is a type of corporate guilt, and the definition has been a
part of the common law for over 500 years. In my state (and probably others)
the concept is extended to riots and disturbances by crowds. That is,
everyone who participates in a riot is equally guilty of any act undertaken
by any participant. Years ago, a riot took place at a black university and a
police officer was killed. 1,100 people were arrested and charged with
capital murder (death penalty).

You may be correct in that the charge is not exactly "fair," but it tends to
discourage the planners of multi-person nastiness from enlisting whackos.

- Don Klipstein )

"Don Klipstein" wrote


It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I
see as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while
committing a felony or in associated with committing a felony.

No, "felony murder" is a homicide committed during the commission of a
felony.

And Melanie Furder is a girl I used to boink in high school.......

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:10:09 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:


-snip-
Years ago, a riot took place at a black university and a
police officer was killed. 1,100 people were arrested and charged
with capital murder (death penalty).

So vague that I have to ask for the smallest of details so I can read
about it. Can I have a year or a university- or even a decade &
state?

Jim

May 1967, Texas Southern University, Houston, Texas.

This was pre-internet, so existing reports are sketchy. Below are three
mentions of the incident - there are more.

I was with the sheriff's department at the time. We were not directly
involved, but followed the events closely. What started the event was
somewhat weird: A Houston police patrol car stopped to see what a group of
students were doing huddled in a circle on the sidewalk (a major street
bisects the campus). As the two officers were getting out of their car,
someone threw a watermelon at their car, breaking its windshield! (I am
NOT making this up.) The two officers ducked back into their car and
radioed for assistance. Things just snowballed after that.

The police chief at the time, Herman Short (who, believe it or not, died
today Dec 30th), was not, er, racially sensitive. One of his quotes
(paraphrasing): "Anybody wearing a gun, stopping traffic on a public
street, and 'soliciting' donations to the Black Panthers or anything else
is going to die."

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/...s/RR/jcr2.html

http://myreader.co.uk/msg/12113450.aspx

http://www.outreach.olemiss.edu/Free.../Timeline.html

I love that Southern justice.

I was living in Houston at the time Marvin Zindler was raising the ruckus
about "The Chicken Ranch" in LaGrange. Early 70s.

"MARRRRRRRVIN ZZZZZZZINDLER,
EYYYYYYYYYE WITNESS NEWSSSSSS!" He would go around and crusade about
consumer issues and somebody got ripped off at the body shop.

He was an aggravating puke, and IIRC, a retired PO.

Seeing TJ Fluoronoy (sp) reach through his car window, seize him by his
necktie and punch him repeatedly in the face with the camera within three
feet was priceless. Left hand pull, right hand punch in the nose. Repeat,
repeat, repeat, repeat.

The Chicken Ranch was closed right after that on governor's order, IIRC,
mainly because of that footage. I'm sure Marvin had a headache that night.

Steve

In , HeyBub wrote (edited for space):
Don Klipstein wrote:

It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I
see as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while
committing a felony or in associated with committing a felony.

No, "felony murder" is a homicide committed during the commission of a
felony.

That word again. "Manslaughter" is a particular form of homicide. Homicide
is the killing of one human through the act or ommission of another.
Generally there are five types of homicide: Murder, manslaughter, negligent,
justifiable, and excusable. Some jurisdictions have subdivsions of these
five ("Capital Murder," 2nd Degree Manslaughter, etc.).

In PA, if a robber drops a safe on someone's head while crawling through
a ceiling, it's felony murder.

But if a robber points a gun at the intended victim and pulls the
trigger and the victim dies, it's something higher than felony murder -
it's second degree murder, automatic life without parole.

And if a robber shoots up an armored car driver as Plan A without giving
the driver a chance to live by complying with a carjacking, then it is
higher still - obviously premeditated, first degree murder. Two sentences
are available: Life without parole, and death row.

And if a cop or a getaway car driver has a tire blow out and fatally
crashes during a chase, the DA may press a felony murder charge and the
jury may return a guilty verdict, but then the courts get an appeal added
to their workload because the robber is not why the car had a defective or
underinflated tire or why an overloaded dump truck dropped a piece of
scrap metal on the road. But the DA gets re-elected for "being tough on
crime".

- Don Klipstein )

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:47:17 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:


"Don Klipstein" wrote


It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I
see as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while
committing a felony or in associated with committing a felony.

No, "felony murder" is a homicide committed during the commission of a
felony.

And Melanie Furder is a girl I used to boink in high school.......

Well who hasn't boinked Melanie Furder?

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , HeyBub wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I
see as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while
committing a felony or in associated with committing a felony.
No, "felony murder" is a homicide committed during the commission of a
felony.

I do see this charge being abused.
Agreed. If people would quit committing felonies, there wouldn't be any
"felony murders."

If someone accidentally kills
someone other than an intended victim while using or brandishing a
deadly weapon, then I would agree with felony murder. (I would agree
with a higher degree of murder for wrongfully pointing a gun at
someone and experiencing "accidental discharge", such as during a
robbery or attempted robbery.)
I would agree with felony murder for
a robber's getaway car driver killing someone via reckless driving.
But if a robber gets a criminal partner killed by an intended victim,
then I only see the robber being guilty of robbery and conspiracy.
And if a police officer slips on a banana peel and suffers a fatal
head injury while chasing a robber, then I don't see the robber being
guilty of felony murder ... It appears to me that a "felony
murder" is only committed if the felon performs a manslaughter.
That word again. "Manslaughter" is a particular form of homicide. Homicide
is the killing of one human through the act or ommission of another.
Generally there are five types of homicide: Murder, manslaughter, negligent,
justifiable, and excusable. Some jurisdictions have subdivsions of these
five ("Capital Murder," 2nd Degree Manslaughter, etc.).

If a
robber's partner gets killed in a botched robbery, I don't see any
unlawful homicide so much as the unfortunate criminal partner
suffering a risked effect of doing illegal risky business, so the
surviving robber is only guilty of robbery and conspiracy and maybe
weapons offenses if the surviving robber used or brandished a weapon,
and whatever moving violations are committed while driving a getaway
vehicle (often good for a major license suspension, which I believe
should be served starting after getting out of prison).
So what should the penalty or charge be for the driver of the getaway car
when all his mates were killed by the cops?

Conspiracy and robbery, maybe reckless driving and moving violations,
any weapons offenses if found in possession of any, receiving stolen
property.

But the getaway car driver did not commit homicide of his criminal
partners - the cops did, maybe justifiably.

"Felony Murder" is a type of corporate guilt, and the definition has been a
part of the common law for over 500 years. In my state (and probably others)
the concept is extended to riots and disturbances by crowds. That is,
everyone who participates in a riot is equally guilty of any act undertaken
by any participant. Years ago, a riot took place at a black university and a
police officer was killed. 1,100 people were arrested and charged with
capital murder (death penalty).

You may be correct in that the charge is not exactly "fair," but it tends to
discourage the planners of multi-person nastiness from enlisting whackos.

- Don Klipstein )

There is a very old truism arising out of English common law. The man
that starts the horse drove the wagon. Starting in that context means
to apply a rod cane or whip to the subject. A very common order in the
British sailing navy was "Start that man." The petty officer so
addressed would apply a knotted rope end or cane to the offending sailor.

A similar principal applies to civil law in the US. The catch phrase is
when you commit a tort you are along for the ride. It means that you
can be held answerable at law for the unforeseen but foreseeable
consequences of a negligent act. In criminal law the principle is
expressed as "intent follows the bullet." No matter were the bullet
comes to rest the shooter is responsible for its damage. Felony Murder
just takes it back one step. Death during an armed robbery is a
foreseeable result of starting out to commit one. Anyone who
undertakes an armed robbery is guilty of some degree of criminal
homicide in any death that arises out of that undertaking of that crime.
--
Tom Horne

"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:47:17 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:


"Don Klipstein" wrote


It appears to me that this murder charge is "felony murder", which I
see as meaning, in my words, a manslaughter committed while
committing a felony or in associated with committing a felony.

No, "felony murder" is a homicide committed during the commission of a
felony.

And Melanie Furder is a girl I used to boink in high school.......

Well who hasn't boinked Melanie Furder?

....and everyone knew her as 'Nancy'......

;-]

"SteveB" wrote


I was living in Houston at the time Marvin Zindler was raising the ruckus
about "The Chicken Ranch" in LaGrange. Early 70s.


"They got a lot of nice girls-zah....."

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 16:57:14 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

The Chicken Ranch was closed right after that on governor's order

Local Craigslist -

BROTHEL FOR SALE...PAHRUMP....$6.9M - $6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: see below
Date: 2007-12-30, 10:20AM PST


CHICKEN RANCH BORDELLO FOR SALE...FOR INFORMATION AND PACKAGE PLEASE
CALL SONI KAUR, REALTY ONE GROUP AT 702-845-2604
$6.9M

QUALIFIED BUYER MUST BE WILLING TO SIGN CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT &
PROVIDE FINANCIALS.

Oren
--

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 16:57:14 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

The Chicken Ranch was closed right after that on governor's order

Local Craigslist -

BROTHEL FOR SALE...PAHRUMP....$6.9M - $6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: see below
Date: 2007-12-30, 10:20AM PST


CHICKEN RANCH BORDELLO FOR SALE...FOR INFORMATION AND PACKAGE PLEASE
CALL SONI KAUR, REALTY ONE GROUP AT 702-845-2604
$6.9M

QUALIFIED BUYER MUST BE WILLING TO SIGN CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT &
PROVIDE FINANCIALS.

Oren

THAT would be what I consider THE perfect job. Unless, of course, you die
of overwork. My mind is working overtime on this concept .............. all
those interviews .................. all that spanking for infractions of the
rules ...................

I'm going to run take a shower.


Bye .


Steve

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:46:51 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 16:57:14 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

The Chicken Ranch was closed right after that on governor's order

Local Craigslist -

BROTHEL FOR SALE...PAHRUMP....$6.9M - $6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: see below
Date: 2007-12-30, 10:20AM PST


CHICKEN RANCH BORDELLO FOR SALE...FOR INFORMATION AND PACKAGE PLEASE
CALL SONI KAUR, REALTY ONE GROUP AT 702-845-2604
$6.9M

QUALIFIED BUYER MUST BE WILLING TO SIGN CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT &
PROVIDE FINANCIALS.

Oren

THAT would be what I consider THE perfect job. Unless, of course, you die
of overwork. My mind is working overtime on this concept .............. all
those interviews .................. all that spanking for infractions of the
rules ...................

My maternal grandfather died while having sex. I'm not mad!

Oren
--

SteveB wrote:

I was living in Houston at the time Marvin Zindler was raising the
ruckus about "The Chicken Ranch" in LaGrange. Early 70s.

"MARRRRRRRVIN ZZZZZZZINDLER,
EYYYYYYYYYE WITNESS NEWSSSSSS!" He would go around and crusade about
consumer issues and somebody got ripped off at the body shop.

He was an aggravating puke, and IIRC, a retired PO.

I'll dispute "retired." Marvin was with the sheriff's department when I was
there. He headed the one-man "Consumer Fraud" division with a somewhat
flamboyant style. For example, he arrested downtown's largest department
store, Foley's, for using the American flag on a printed advertisement.
That's right - he arrested the building and all its contents(!). As I
recall, the building got off on some technicality (no Miranda warning or
somesuch), but Marvin got a lot of TV coverage. And Foley's quit using the
flag on their throw-away advertising flyers.

He and the sheriff's department eventually parted ways and he got a TV gig.
Marvin was financially independent, being part of the Zindler family
clothing store empire.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:

I was living in Houston at the time Marvin Zindler was raising the
ruckus about "The Chicken Ranch" in LaGrange. Early 70s.

"MARRRRRRRVIN ZZZZZZZINDLER,
EYYYYYYYYYE WITNESS NEWSSSSSS!" He would go around and crusade about
consumer issues and somebody got ripped off at the body shop.

He was an aggravating puke, and IIRC, a retired PO.

I'll dispute "retired." Marvin was with the sheriff's department when I
was there. He headed the one-man "Consumer Fraud" division with a somewhat
flamboyant style. For example, he arrested downtown's largest department
store, Foley's, for using the American flag on a printed advertisement.
That's right - he arrested the building and all its contents(!). As I
recall, the building got off on some technicality (no Miranda warning or
somesuch), but Marvin got a lot of TV coverage. And Foley's quit using the
flag on their throw-away advertising flyers.

He and the sheriff's department eventually parted ways and he got a TV
gig. Marvin was financially independent, being part of the Zindler family
clothing store empire.

That sure was a strong tie he had on that day. I wonder if he got it at
Zindler's. TJ got ahold of it, and it held strong. Pull, punch, pull,
punch. One of the darndest things I have seen.

Steve

SteveB wrote:

That sure was a strong tie he had on that day. I wonder if he got it
at Zindler's. TJ got ahold of it, and it held strong. Pull, punch,
pull, punch. One of the darndest things I have seen.


Yeah, Marvin had to do things "his way." In the police/sheriff's academy,
they tell you (if common sense can't figure it out), that cops should wear
clip-on neckties (for reasons that are obvious to you an me).