wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.



At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......

Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?

Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?

Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?

Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"

Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

wrote:

On Oct 23, 8:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:


At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......


That's okay, I should have explained what I was already doing better
anyway.


Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?


Yes, at least on most of my attempts I've been removing the elbow
completely (and replacing it with a new one) so I can see down the
supply end of the pipe and no water is anywhere near the top. A
couple times (I mentioned I made a LOT of attempts), when I tried to
just fix the minor leak by adding more solder, there may have been
some water those times... but I've tried both.


Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?


Yes, with a wire brush, that 4-in-1 tool made for the job. I don't
spend a hole lot of time on the inside of the elbows though, because
they are brand-new and already really shiny. I just insert the wire
brush and maybe 6 or 8 twists... I then use toilet paper or paper
towel (I've tried both because I'm not positive, but I don't think
either have any "oils" or perfumes in them, which I know would be a
bad thing) to remove any oil and/or dust.


Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?


Yes, "paste" flux. I do notice that it runs down the pipe most of the
time, when I start to heat the elbow. Mostly on the end of the elbow
pointing downwards, which I imagine isn't ideal, but I'm not sure how
to avoid this. I was using too much flux at first, but now I just put
a thin coat on.


Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"


I think I'll try doing one end at a time again. It wasn't working
very well, I think, because I was applying the heat around the middle
of the elbow. I was worried that applying the heat to close to the
end of the elbow, may heat the pipe faster than the fitting, or not
heat the fitting far enough inside so I may only get solder around the
edge.


Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.


Thanks Jeff. Could be.



I'm leaning toward your not getting the elbow and pipe hot enough before
you apply the solder. You should be anble to see the molten solder suck
into the joint through capillary attraction and flow around the
circumference of the end of the fitting if things are going right.

Is the elbow located in a restricted position where you can't get the
torch flame very far "around it? If so, sticking a piece of sheet metal
an inch or so behind the joint can help "reflect" some of the torch's
heat to that side of the fitting.

Keep trying, it's not rocket surgery, and you can only succeed as far as
you dare to fail.


One other thing that is going to keep me up at night... is there any
way to really know if you made a good solder? If it doesn't leak
after a couple days, could it still be a "bad" connection and start to
leak after a couple years? I know any connection could leak after a
couple years for various reasons, so maybe the question doesn't really
have the kind of answer I'm looking for.... what I really want to
know, is how can anyone be sure that they did a good job.
Unfortunately, based on past experiences, hiring a professional
doesn't give me any more peice of mind, again, unless I had some way
to check their work, but then I could just use that same method to
check my work (and only call a pro if I couldn't get it right). I
guess the only plus with hiring someone else, is that I have someone
to sue, but I probably wouldn't bother sueing anyway, so guess that
doesn't matter for me.



Hydraulic (water) pressure testing of plumbing systems is done, but
usually only on new construction. I've never heard of a plumber doing a
"repair" job on something in a home doing that, but if you want to learn
a little more about it look he

http://tinyurl.com/yopt2w

The only time I ever experienced a soldered copper fitting "blow right
off" was nearly 50 years ago a couple of months after I'd moved into a
basement apartment in a brand new building. An elbow blew off in the
kitchen of the apartment above mine in the middle of the night. My
neighbor noticed water running out from under my entry door in the
morning and woke me. What a MESS. Being a bachelor, my kitchen cabinets
held more than just food, and I lost a few things I wish I still had,
among them a 1940's Contax 35mm camera with "Geheime Staatspolizei"
(Gestapo) engraved on its back, brought back from WWII by a returning
GI. My tenant's insurance paid me a decent amount for it, with the
condition that they got to keep it.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

On Oct 23, 8:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......

That's okay, I should have explained what I was already doing better
anyway.

Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?

Yes, at least on most of my attempts I've been removing the elbow
completely (and replacing it with a new one) so I can see down the
supply end of the pipe and no water is anywhere near the top. A
couple times (I mentioned I made a LOT of attempts), when I tried to
just fix the minor leak by adding more solder, there may have been
some water those times... but I've tried both.

Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?

Yes, with a wire brush, that 4-in-1 tool made for the job. I don't
spend a hole lot of time on the inside of the elbows though, because
they are brand-new and already really shiny. I just insert the wire
brush and maybe 6 or 8 twists... I then use toilet paper or paper
towel (I've tried both because I'm not positive, but I don't think
either have any "oils" or perfumes in them, which I know would be a
bad thing) to remove any oil and/or dust.

Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?

Yes, "paste" flux. I do notice that it runs down the pipe most of the
time, when I start to heat the elbow. Mostly on the end of the elbow
pointing downwards, which I imagine isn't ideal, but I'm not sure how
to avoid this. I was using too much flux at first, but now I just put
a thin coat on.

Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"

I think I'll try doing one end at a time again. It wasn't working
very well, I think, because I was applying the heat around the middle
of the elbow. I was worried that applying the heat to close to the
end of the elbow, may heat the pipe faster than the fitting, or not
heat the fitting far enough inside so I may only get solder around the
edge.

Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.

Thanks Jeff. Could be.

One other thing that is going to keep me up at night... is there any
way to really know if you made a good solder? If it doesn't leak
after a couple days, could it still be a "bad" connection and start to
leak after a couple years? I know any connection could leak after a
couple years for various reasons, so maybe the question doesn't really
have the kind of answer I'm looking for.... what I really want to
know, is how can anyone be sure that they did a good job.
Unfortunately, based on past experiences, hiring a professional
doesn't give me any more peice of mind, again, unless I had some way
to check their work, but then I could just use that same method to
check my work (and only call a pro if I couldn't get it right). I
guess the only plus with hiring someone else, is that I have someone
to sue, but I probably wouldn't bother sueing anyway, so guess that
doesn't matter for me.

On Oct 23, 11:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......

Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?

Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?

Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?

Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"

Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd cut the pipe back and add a coupling. You say you keep sanding
the used pipe ends and get it to clean solder, but the problem may be
beneath the solder. For example, if the pipe was not initially
properly cleaned and fluxed, the problem may be under the thin solder
coating that is left, where there is some contamination causing
problems again each time it reflows.

The other choice is to sand off all the solder on the end of the pipe
down to bright copper. Make sure you clean the inside of the new
fitting too and then apply flux. Using the wire brushes that are
made specifically for that is the best way. They also make them for
use on the outside of the pipe and work much better than sandpaper.
They look like a doughnut and you just rotate it around the end of the
pipe.

As to "good" joints (lot of experience soldering all sorts of stuff
here), I can tell a good joint generally just by inspection. This
applies to electronics as well as pipe, etc.

You should see a meniscus of solder evenly flowing between the two
items. There should be no "bare" spots, or clear inclusions of crud,
excess solder, blogs, etc. Look at the joint with a magnifying glass,
if possible. If the joint is in a hard to get at location, then
observing the back side can often be done with a good flashlight and
inspection mirror.

I've found, when teaching people to solder, that they should PRACTICE
on some scrap stuff first to get good technique. In dealing with
plumbing, most of the problems are due to much too much heat. You just
want enough heat so that the solder just flows easily. Dirt is your
enemy. Emery paper, wire brushes, and steel wool are your best
friends. Flux simply serves to remove final bit of surface oxidation.

I really like rosin core solder, even for plumbing. The new lead free
solders work at a slightly higher temperature, and in my experience
are harder to get good joints with, especially if you have grown up on
lead bearing solders. I am reluctant to use acid core solder, as the
residue is hydroscopic, and corrosive, and will come back to haunt you
later.

Also, I find it useful to "pre fabricate" as much stuff on the bench,
then finish up with maybe two joints to be soldered in the final work.

Also, in working with OLD plumbing, you have to deal with corrosion.
Sometimes I've used compression fittings instead of soldering. Of
course, use TWO wrenches to tighten them up so as not to twist the
pipe.

Hope this helps..

On Oct 23, 9:57 am, wrote:
I'd cut the pipe back and add a coupling. You say you keep sanding
the used pipe ends and get it to clean solder, but the problem may be
beneath the solder. For example, if the pipe was not initially
properly cleaned and fluxed, the problem may be under the thin solder
coating that is left, where there is some contamination causing
problems again each time it reflows.

I'll have to do this if I can't get it after several more tries. At
least then I can do the elbow part on my workbench, where I can easily
get to all sides and rotate the part as well. Then do the coupling
inside the wall, where it is harder to get around to the back side...
but I've already done two couplings inside the wall, so hopefully this
one would also go easily.

The other choice is to sand off all the solder on the end of the pipe
down to bright copper.

I'll try this. I just don't want to sand too much, and end up making
the pipe weak. It does seem like I should be able to sand just a bit
more though, until the solder color is gone. The solder only bonds to
the surface of the pipe, right? So the pipe should stay the same
thickness as long as I only sand until the solder is gone.

They also make them for
use on the outside of the pipe and work much better than sandpaper.
They look like a doughnut and you just rotate it around the end of the
pipe.

This is the tool I have, love it -- as much as one that is starting to
hate plumbing can love any kind of plumbing tool. At least with the
masonry and woodworking projects I do, they will not flood my house if
done incorrectly.

On Oct 23, 12:57 pm, wrote:
On Oct 23, 11:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:





wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......

Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?

Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?

Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?

Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"

Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd cut the pipe back and add a coupling. You say you keep sanding
the used pipe ends and get it to clean solder, but the problem may be
beneath the solder. For example, if the pipe was not initially
properly cleaned and fluxed, the problem may be under the thin solder
coating that is left, where there is some contamination causing
problems again each time it reflows.

The other choice is to sand off all the solder on the end of the pipe
down to bright copper. Make sure you clean the inside of the new
fitting too and then apply flux. Using the wire brushes that are
made specifically for that is the best way. They also make them for
use on the outside of the pipe and work much better than sandpaper.
They look like a doughnut and you just rotate it around the end of the
pipe.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Usually you can just flux and reheat the pipe that has some solder
left on it and use steel wool to scrub and wipe it off while molten.
Pre-tinned the joints go together even easier.
Try warming the pipe with the torch before dry fitting the parts, you
would be amazed how much steam some condensation can make and it will
push molten solder out of it's path.

On Oct 23, 11:13 am, wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H

On Oct 23, 10:06 am, professorpaul wrote:
As to "good" joints (lot of experience soldering all sorts of stuff
here), I can tell a good joint generally just by inspection. This
applies to electronics as well as pipe, etc.

You should see a meniscus of solder evenly flowing between the two
items. There should be no "bare" spots, or clear inclusions of crud,
excess solder, blogs, etc. Look at the joint with a magnifying glass,
if possible. If the joint is in a hard to get at location, then
observing the back side can often be done with a good flashlight and
inspection mirror.

O-boy, I may redo a couple of my other fittings after doing this. At
least the first two couplings I did, which are now closed off already,
looked really good. They didn't even leak the first time, but I redid
them anyway because I wasn't happy with the way they looked, and I
didn't want to open the wall again after I closed that part.

I really like rosin core solder, even for plumbing. The new lead free
solders work at a slightly higher temperature, and in my experience
are harder to get good joints with, especially if you have grown up on
lead bearing solders. I am reluctant to use acid core solder, as the
residue is hydroscopic, and corrosive, and will come back to haunt you
later.

I think I started with an acid core solder, and those first two
couplings were that kind (they are already closed off, so I sure hope
I don't have problems with them). I got the one marked "premium" the
2nd time (I used a whole pound of solder doing the first two
couplings, until I learned how it should really be done, then only
needed the last few inches to do the job right). This "premium" says
something like "solid wire", don't have it in front of me, but I do
recall it didn't say "acid core" like the 1st one I had.

Also, I find it useful to "pre fabricate" as much stuff on the bench,
then finish up with maybe two joints to be soldered in the final work.

Yes, I started doing this after a while, and it is a great idea.
Another plus is that I don't have as many burn marks on the sheetrock
and studs =] Just kiddin, I'm being safe.

Also, in working with OLD plumbing, you have to deal with corrosion.
Sometimes I've used compression fittings instead of soldering. Of
course, use TWO wrenches to tighten them up so as not to twist the
pipe.

I was thinking about trying something else (I read about "Sharkbites"
as well), but I think if I get to that point, I'll just call a
professional instead. I'm putting $500 worth of tile over this job,
and don't want to tear it out.

On Oct 23, 10:23 am, Heathcliff
wrote:
Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H- Hide quoted text -

Uhh, no! And maybe that is why I'm having so much trouble with this
"last one", since all of the others wouldn't have this issue since the
pipe was still open. However, I did do 2 temporary end caps prior to
this part of the job, and those went on fine without anything "open".

Unless the fact that I have all of the nearby faucets open counts?
This is for a shower faucet, and I have the sink faucet open (both hot
and cold), and also sink and tub in the bathroom that shares a wall
with this one, plus I have the hose open at the water shut-off valve
coming in to the house... I just open all of those up because I want
to make sure water is out of the lines, so I just leave them open,
plus the water shut-off at the house has a tiny leak, and leaving
these other faucets open keeps the pipes I'm working with free of
water.

I guess I'll open the shower faucet I'm installing, since it can't
hurt (unless I forget to close before I turn the water back on, then
my wife gets wet since she stand in front of it with a 2-way radio to
let me know if I need to turn the water back off in a hurry).

On Oct 23, 9:24 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
I'm leaning toward your not getting the elbow and pipe hot enough before
you apply the solder. You should be anble to see the molten solder suck
into the joint through capillary attraction and flow around the
circumference of the end of the fitting if things are going right.

Could very well be, I'm not sure how to tell what the right amount of
heat is. I read that if it gets too hot, it will burn the flux, which
I guess causes problems. I know it is hot enough to melt the solder,
because on most attempts I've been removing the flame before applying
the solder, just to be 100% sure I'm not melting the solder with the
torch.

When I've removed the elbow, most of the time I'm seeing a nice
coating of solder where the elbow was (inside), so it must be flowing
to the inside like it should. However, I usually do need to run the
solder around the pipe, not just touch it in one place and have it run
around the pipe "magicly" like I've heard about. I've read different
methods, and some say to just apply the solder in one place and it
should run around all sides, and other people say to run the solder
around in a circle. Which is best/better/correct? I can't really get
to the far side very easy, so I guess just holding it in one place
would be nice, if I can get that to work.

Should the solder just stay inside and all the way around the pipe?
What I'm usually seeing is that some stays at the top, but more flows
towards the "bottom" (whichever way gravity pulls it). So I usually
do have solder all the way around, but a bit more in the direction
that gravity was pulling it.

After reading the post by Heathcliff, I am starting to wonder if I'm
getting solder in the right place, but maybe water or air is flowing
through prematurely and creating narrow paths for the water to flow
through when I turn the water back on. I'm 99.9% sure there is no
water, but I hadn't thought about air.

The first thing I'll do when I try again tonight is to open the shower
faucet, that way air can escape that way, and also water if it boils
up that far (but again, I'm pretty positive there is no water).

wrote in message
ups.com...

I was thinking about trying something else (I read about "Sharkbites"
as well), but I think if I get to that point, I'll just call a
professional instead. I'm putting $500 worth of tile over this job,
and don't want to tear it out.


Since your problem seems to be on one joint, it is possible that the end or that
pipe is slightly out-of-round, causing the problem. Try replacing that one piece
and see if the problem goes away.

Bob

wrote:

On Oct 23, 10:23 am, Heathcliff
wrote:

Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H- Hide quoted text -


Uhh, no! And maybe that is why I'm having so much trouble with this
"last one", since all of the others wouldn't have this issue since the
pipe was still open. However, I did do 2 temporary end caps prior to
this part of the job, and those went on fine without anything "open".

Unless the fact that I have all of the nearby faucets open counts?
This is for a shower faucet, and I have the sink faucet open (both hot
and cold), and also sink and tub in the bathroom that shares a wall
with this one, plus I have the hose open at the water shut-off valve
coming in to the house... I just open all of those up because I want
to make sure water is out of the lines, so I just leave them open,
plus the water shut-off at the house has a tiny leak, and leaving
these other faucets open keeps the pipes I'm working with free of
water.

I guess I'll open the shower faucet I'm installing, since it can't
hurt (unless I forget to close before I turn the water back on, then
my wife gets wet since she stand in front of it with a 2-way radio to
let me know if I need to turn the water back off in a hurry).


Are you absatively certain that the leak is occurring through the solder
joint(s)?

I know you said you tried more than one elbow, but have you eliminated
all possibilities that a pinhole NOT covered by solder might be leaking
in such a way as to make it appear that the leak is coming through the
solder joint.

You sound like a thoughtful, careful and conciencious guy, and I'm
getting a feeling from your descriptions that just maybe you ARE making
good solder joints on that elbow but something else is snookering you
into blaming your soldering.

Maybe it's YOU who should be standing there observing while the little
lady turns the water supply back on. You might spot something else that way.

Keep us posted!

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Oct 23, 10:23 am, Heathcliff
wrote:
Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H- Hide quoted text -

Uhh, no! And maybe that is why I'm having so much trouble with this
"last one", since all of the others wouldn't have this issue since the
pipe was still open. However, I did do 2 temporary end caps prior to
this part of the job, and those went on fine without anything "open".

Unless the fact that I have all of the nearby faucets open counts?
This is for a shower faucet, and I have the sink faucet open (both hot
and cold), and also sink and tub in the bathroom that shares a wall
with this one, plus I have the hose open at the water shut-off valve
coming in to the house... I just open all of those up because I want
to make sure water is out of the lines, so I just leave them open,
plus the water shut-off at the house has a tiny leak, and leaving
these other faucets open keeps the pipes I'm working with free of
water.

I guess I'll open the shower faucet I'm installing, since it can't
hurt (unless I forget to close before I turn the water back on, then
my wife gets wet since she stand in front of it with a 2-way radio to
let me know if I need to turn the water back off in a hurry).


You've gotten lots of good advise but I'll add one trick taught me by Master
plumbers. If you have ANY risk of water seeping toward your joint, you need
to stop it far enough back and long enough to complete the solder joint.

The trick? Get a slice of white bread -- the doughier the better. Wad it up
so that you can shove a bunch of it far down the pipe; a pencil makes a good
ramrod. Make sure it fills the entire diameter of the pipe. Pack it in both
directions if necessary. While you're soldering, the bread will absorb the
water. When you turn the water on, the water will dissolve the bread and
flush the pipe clean.

I had been soldering copper for decades and running into all sort of
problems getting the last traces of water out of the pipe until I learned
this trick. Believe me -- it works!

Best of Luck!

On Oct 23, 12:35 pm, "DonC" wrote:
Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H- Hide quoted text -

Anyone else think this could be a trapped air problem? The more I
think about it, just because I had some other nearby faucets open, I
don't think that would release the air, and I really think I may just
need to open the shower faucet (the one I'm installing, and this last
elbow is on the supply side of that faucet). The more I think about
it, it sure seems like it could be air, because the solder often looks
like lava rock, instead of a nice smooth finish. I probably should
have mentioned that earlier, but it doesn't always look that way, just
on some of my attempts, but now I'm thinking even on the attempts
where I got the visible part smooth, there could still be rough parts
that I can't see (i.e.-lines/bubbles where the air is trying to pass).

My wife just told me she "heard air" everytime I turned on the water.
Not sure exactly what to make of that.

I'll open the shower faucet on my first attempt tonight, AND also I'll
be the one standing by the pipes while she turns on the water. Most
of the time the leak was slow enough that I left the water on and
looked for myself, and the leaks were coming from the joint, usually
on one side of the elbow or the other, not something silly like them
coming from the threaded joint (at the shower valve) and running along
the pipe down to that spot.

The trick? Get a slice of white bread -- the doughier the better. Wad it up
so that you can shove a bunch of it far down the pipe; a pencil makes a good
ramrod. Make sure it fills the entire diameter of the pipe. Pack it in both
directions if necessary. While you're soldering, the bread will absorb the
water. When you turn the water on, the water will dissolve the bread and
flush the pipe clean.

Good to know.... although we rarely have plain white bread in the
house, but I'm sure I could borrow a slice from a neighbor (wouldn't
taste very good when I returned it though).

wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

Screw it. Get a flexible, compression connection.

On Oct 23, 12:13 pm, wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

I had a similar problem a few years back and I was finally able to get
the joint to solder after I bought a new can of flux. Maybe the flux
went bad or something settled in the can from the heat in the shed but
new flux fixed it for me. YMMV

On 23 Oct, 13:23, Heathcliff wrote:
On Oct 23, 11:13 am, wrote:





I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

-- one end of the pipe is open to the air, right?

I was soldering a cap onto a pipe and I took a little too long to
apply the solder. The cap shot across the basement and melted the rug
where it landed.

In article .com, wrote:
On Oct 23, 12:35 pm, "DonC" wrote:
Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H- Hide quoted text -

Anyone else think this could be a trapped air problem?

Nope. Trapped *air* is never a problem when soldering pipes; it just doesn't
expand enough to cause any trouble, and the pressure isn't high enough to
force it past melted solder. Trapped *water* is a problem, though: when it
turns to steam, it occupies a thousand times the volume it did as water, and
the pressure can be enough to blow a joint completely apart.

The more I
think about it, just because I had some other nearby faucets open, I
don't think that would release the air, and I really think I may just
need to open the shower faucet (the one I'm installing, and this last
elbow is on the supply side of that faucet). The more I think about
it, it sure seems like it could be air, because the solder often looks
like lava rock, instead of a nice smooth finish.

That's not from air coming out -- that's from steam.

I probably should
have mentioned that earlier, but it doesn't always look that way, just
on some of my attempts, but now I'm thinking even on the attempts
where I got the visible part smooth, there could still be rough parts
that I can't see (i.e.-lines/bubbles where the air

steam

is trying to pass).

is passing

My wife just told me she "heard air" everytime I turned on the water.
Not sure exactly what to make of that.

Doubtless you have air in the lines. But that's not relevant he it's the
water, flashing to steam, that's causing your problem.

I'll open the shower faucet on my first attempt tonight, AND also I'll
be the one standing by the pipes while she turns on the water. Most
of the time the leak was slow enough that I left the water on and
looked for myself, and the leaks were coming from the joint, usually
on one side of the elbow or the other, not something silly like them
coming from the threaded joint (at the shower valve) and running along
the pipe down to that spot.

Let the joints cool off longer, too, before you run water into them.

The trick? Get a slice of white bread -- the doughier the better. Wad it up
so that you can shove a bunch of it far down the pipe; a pencil makes a good
ramrod. Make sure it fills the entire diameter of the pipe. Pack it in both
directions if necessary. While you're soldering, the bread will absorb the
water. When you turn the water on, the water will dissolve the bread and
flush the pipe clean.

Good to know.... although we rarely have plain white bread in the
house, but I'm sure I could borrow a slice from a neighbor (wouldn't
taste very good when I returned it though).

It doesn't have to be white bread. Whole wheat works just fine.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:13:59 -0700, eselk wrote:

I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers, 1
elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just one
other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last night and
continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again tonight with a
fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow have
solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still solder
color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did that a
couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand off the old
solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to start with all new
pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've got plenty to spare...
but I can't really cut back the pipe, not without adding yet another
fitting (another coupler) which just seems like even more work, and
eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did, so I
have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much trouble. I did
only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got lucky on that elbow.
Is there anything special you need to do when doing elbows? I've tried
doing one end at a time, and also tried heating in the middle of the elbow
and running the solder around both ends, one right after the other (while
still hot, so they both cool/ harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been testing
within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of wish I could
find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I wouldn't have to
worry about messing up one end while working on the other.

eselk,

Take a file to the pipe to get the rest of the solder off or reheat it and
use a soldier wick to suck it off. You can get wicks in HD or somewhere
similar. A round file worked without alot of pressure should be fine also.

Most leaks are caused by the copper pipe not being hot enough when you
apply the solder. Otherwise not enough flux. Make sure you clean the ends
with sandpaper before applying any flux or solder.

Good luck,

--
coffee
Linux Registered User #449534

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

If the fit-up is too tight, solder can not flow properly into the joint.
This can be a problem is the pipe is slightly oval or has a bent place.

Don Young

its not hot enough or not clean enough.

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

On Oct 23, 7:15 pm, "Don Young" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

... snip...



If the fit-up is too tight, solder can not flow properly into the joint.
This can be a problem is the pipe is slightly oval or has a bent place.


Thanks to all who replied. I got it last night! Yeah!

I wish I could say for sure what the problem was, but I ended up doing
pretty much everything that was recommended in one shot, so not sure
what really helped the most. I think part of the problem, and why I
had to try so many times, was that after it was leaking the first
time, I was probably trying to hard on all of the next attempts
assuming that something was wrong. In the end, I just said to myself,
"The other fittings went on fine, so stop trying so hard and just give
it one more shot, just pretend it is the first time your doing this
one, and that it was never leaking."... I just went back to basics,
and didn't try too hard, and it worked. Plus I opened the faucet,
used sand paper, bread, and several other tips as well, so was
probably a combination of everything.

Thanks again!

p.s.-Could have been the fishing gods helping me out as well, because
of the 1 day delay, it could time out that I'll be waiting for
waterproofer to dry on Saturday instead of Friday, so maybe I'll get
to go fishing after all =]

elbow is on the supply side of that faucet). The more I think about
it, it sure seems like it could be air, because the solder often looks
like lava rock, instead of a nice smooth finish. I probably should
have mentioned that earlier, but it doesn't always look that way, just
on some of my attempts, but now I'm thinking even on the attempts
where I got the visible part smooth, there could still be rough parts
that I can't see (i.e.-lines/bubbles where the air is trying to pass).

My own experience is that I got a rough "lava rock" type look to the
solder when I had insufficient heat. My first soldering attempts were
made with a 6" long butane torch and it took about 5 minutes to heat
the joint sufficiently. Then after I dropped a pipe wrench on my
torch I couldn't get a decent looking joint at all. The solder would
tend to kind of glob on.

I got a new mapp gas torch and it made a huge difference, only about
30 seconds to heat the joint sufficiently and the solder would wick
right in. I noticed that you said in an earlier message that you
remove the heat when you start applying the solder. This could allow
the temperature of the copper pipes to fall and lead to the rough
finish you're observing. (Copper is an excellent conductor of heat so
if you remove the torch I'd expect the temperature to fall fairly
quickly as the heat spreads out down the pipe.) I continue to apply
heat towards the inside of the joint until the solder wicks.

On Oct 24, 11:26 am, wrote:
On Oct 23, 7:15 pm, "Don Young" wrote:

wrote in message

roups.com...

I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

.. snip...



If the fit-up is too tight, solder can not flow properly into the joint.
This can be a problem is the pipe is slightly oval or has a bent place.

Thanks to all who replied. I got it last night! Yeah!

I wish I could say for sure what the problem was, but I ended up doing
pretty much everything that was recommended in one shot, so not sure
what really helped the most. I think part of the problem, and why I
had to try so many times, was that after it was leaking the first
time, I was probably trying to hard on all of the next attempts
assuming that something was wrong. In the end, I just said to myself,
"The other fittings went on fine, so stop trying so hard and just give
it one more shot, just pretend it is the first time your doing this
one, and that it was never leaking."... I just went back to basics,
and didn't try too hard, and it worked. Plus I opened the faucet,
used sand paper, bread, and several other tips as well, so was
probably a combination of everything.

Thanks again!

p.s.-Could have been the fishing gods helping me out as well, because
of the 1 day delay, it could time out that I'll be waiting for
waterproofer to dry on Saturday instead of Friday, so maybe I'll get
to go fishing after all =]

I haven't checked this Group in a few days so I'm coming at this
late.

I had a similar problem with repairing 1 small horizontal section of
pipe. I just couldn't get the solder to flow. I ended up with gobs
of solder dripping on the floor. Cleaning and fluxing over and over
didn't help. It was frustrating as hell. The problem was that water
was still slowly dripping through the system and collecting in this
perfectly horizontal piece of pipe. The torch was heating the water,
not the pipe! The solution was to cut vertically at the nearest
elbow (letting the water drip into a bucket), repair the horizontal
piece with a new elbow, THEN solder that to the vertical piece.

Bottom line lesson for me...water is a great insulator and you can't
solder with even a small amout of water sitting in the pipe.

--Jeff

In article . com, JB wrote:

Bottom line lesson for me...water is a great insulator and you can't
solder with even a small amout of water sitting in the pipe.

Actually, the reason you can't solder with even a small amount of water
sitting in the pipe is that water is a *terrible* insulator -- but it's very
effective at transferring heat away from the spot that you're trying to heat.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Wait till you try it with a nice acetylene/air turbo torch, with the BIG tip
on it. Takes about 5 seconds to heat up a 3/4 pipe joint to soldering temp,
in 30 seconds the pipe melt!


--

Mike S.

wrote in message
ups.com...

I got a new mapp gas torch and it made a huge difference, only about
30 seconds to heat the joint sufficiently and the solder would wick
right in.