Hi all,

I don't actually have a problem currently, but I am trying to locate the
drain for my downspout with no luck. Downspout was disconnected from
drain pipe and diverted to a cistern before I bought the house, however
the overflow drains for the cistern simply dump onto the ground.
There's a stub of PVC pipe sticking up from the ground but it doesn't
let water flow. Well, it does, but very, very slowly. The only
possible location that I could see for it to terminate is that there is
a drain pipe by the curb in front of the house, however it is bone dry.
Trying to stick a snake up that drain from the curb accomplishes
nothing, it is open for as long as the longest snake I have. Trying to
snake it from the downspout end accomplishes nothing either, I get
caught at an S-curve almost immediately.

I will get a longer snake, but I have two concerns... first, I don't
know whether I have a French drain or not, so the drain pipe by the curb
might be for the French drain and has nothing to do with the downspout.
Also I know that when the house was built there was an alley behind
it, and the alley is no longer there.

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging this
up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and removing a
large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all,

I don't actually have a problem currently, but I am trying to locate the
drain for my downspout with no luck. Downspout was disconnected from
drain pipe and diverted to a cistern before I bought the house, however
the overflow drains for the cistern simply dump onto the ground.
There's a stub of PVC pipe sticking up from the ground but it doesn't
let water flow. Well, it does, but very, very slowly. The only
possible location that I could see for it to terminate is that there is
a drain pipe by the curb in front of the house, however it is bone dry.
Trying to stick a snake up that drain from the curb accomplishes
nothing, it is open for as long as the longest snake I have. Trying to
snake it from the downspout end accomplishes nothing either, I get
caught at an S-curve almost immediately.

I will get a longer snake, but I have two concerns... first, I don't
know whether I have a French drain or not, so the drain pipe by the curb
might be for the French drain and has nothing to do with the downspout.
Also I know that when the house was built there was an alley behind
it, and the alley is no longer there.

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging this
up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and removing a
large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate

A downspout drain? Damn, never heard of one. I guess I need to get out
more, or maybe I just live in a different part of the country.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all,

I don't actually have a problem currently, but I am trying to locate the
drain for my downspout with no luck. Downspout was disconnected from
....
So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging this
up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and removing a
large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate

A downspout drain? Damn, never heard of one. I guess I need to get out
more, or maybe I just live in a different part of the country.

Guess so...

For OP, to me this falls into the category of "if it ain't broke, don't
fix it"...

From the description it sounds as though in all likelihood the cistern
is of ample capacity and my guess would be that it has outlets to a
french drain as well as the overflows (or you're in an area that doesn't
get a lot of rainfall) and the vertical pipe is simply an air vent.

--

dpb wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all,

I don't actually have a problem currently, but I am trying to locate
the drain for my downspout with no luck. Downspout was disconnected
from

...

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging
this up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and
removing a large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate


A downspout drain? Damn, never heard of one. I guess I need to get out
more, or maybe I just live in a different part of the country.


Guess so...

For OP, to me this falls into the category of "if it ain't broke, don't
fix it"...

From the description it sounds as though in all likelihood the cistern
is of ample capacity and my guess would be that it has outlets to a
french drain as well as the overflows (or you're in an area that doesn't
get a lot of rainfall) and the vertical pipe is simply an air vent.


Well see, that's the thing. The cistern is just an above ground 550
gallon tank, and it fills up after only a couple good rains. I'd like
to pipe the cistern overflows into a proper drain so that if I don't
manually drain it often enough that it won't just dump water on the
ground behind the house.

I've gotten the pipe sticking out of the ground clear enough that it
will take the full flow from a regular garden hose without overflowing.
But the pipe at the curb is still bone dry so I suspect that they
don't have anything to do with each other.

Is it possible that the downspout was originally piped directly into the
regular sewer? That's the only thing I can think of that makes sense;
either that or I just waterlogged my French drain. I can't hear the
water going into the drain from inside the house, for what that's worth...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all,

I don't actually have a problem currently, but I am trying to locate the
drain for my downspout with no luck. Downspout was disconnected from
drain pipe and diverted to a cistern before I bought the house, however
the overflow drains for the cistern simply dump onto the ground. There's
a stub of PVC pipe sticking up from the ground but it doesn't let water
flow. Well, it does, but very, very slowly. The only possible location
that I could see for it to terminate is that there is a drain pipe by
the curb in front of the house, however it is bone dry. Trying to stick
a snake up that drain from the curb accomplishes nothing, it is open for
as long as the longest snake I have. Trying to snake it from the
downspout end accomplishes nothing either, I get caught at an S-curve
almost immediately.

I will get a longer snake, but I have two concerns... first, I don't
know whether I have a French drain or not, so the drain pipe by the curb
might be for the French drain and has nothing to do with the downspout.
Also I know that when the house was built there was an alley behind it,
and the alley is no longer there.

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging this
up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and removing a
large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate

Hi,
If your house/yard does not have water problem(soggy yard, moisture on
the walls, etc.), what's the worry?

Tony Hwang wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all,

I don't actually have a problem currently, but I am trying to locate
the drain for my downspout with no luck. Downspout was disconnected
from drain pipe and diverted to a cistern before I bought the house,
however the overflow drains for the cistern simply dump onto the
ground. There's a stub of PVC pipe sticking up from the ground but it
doesn't let water flow. Well, it does, but very, very slowly. The
only possible location that I could see for it to terminate is that
there is a drain pipe by the curb in front of the house, however it is
bone dry. Trying to stick a snake up that drain from the curb
accomplishes nothing, it is open for as long as the longest snake I
have. Trying to snake it from the downspout end accomplishes nothing
either, I get caught at an S-curve almost immediately.

I will get a longer snake, but I have two concerns... first, I don't
know whether I have a French drain or not, so the drain pipe by the
curb might be for the French drain and has nothing to do with the
downspout. Also I know that when the house was built there was an
alley behind it, and the alley is no longer there.

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging
this up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and
removing a large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate

Hi,
If your house/yard does not have water problem(soggy yard, moisture on
the walls, etc.), what's the worry?

I guess it's just the principle... I don't *want* to have a water
problem in the future; the cistern is only a couple feet from the
basement walls.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
dpb wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all,

I don't actually have a problem currently, but I am trying to locate
the drain for my downspout with no luck. Downspout was disconnected
from

...

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly
a PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging?
Digging this up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving
it, and removing a large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate


A downspout drain? Damn, never heard of one. I guess I need to get
out more, or maybe I just live in a different part of the country.


Guess so...

For OP, to me this falls into the category of "if it ain't broke,
don't fix it"...

From the description it sounds as though in all likelihood the
cistern is of ample capacity and my guess would be that it has outlets
to a french drain as well as the overflows (or you're in an area that
doesn't get a lot of rainfall) and the vertical pipe is simply an air
vent.


Well see, that's the thing. The cistern is just an above ground 550
gallon tank, and it fills up after only a couple good rains. I'd like
to pipe the cistern overflows into a proper drain so that if I don't
manually drain it often enough that it won't just dump water on the
ground behind the house.

I've gotten the pipe sticking out of the ground clear enough that it
will take the full flow from a regular garden hose without overflowing.
But the pipe at the curb is still bone dry so I suspect that they don't
have anything to do with each other.

Is it possible that the downspout was originally piped directly into the
regular sewer? That's the only thing I can think of that makes sense;
either that or I just waterlogged my French drain. I can't hear the
water going into the drain from inside the house, for what that's worth...

Anything is possible; and if it were (in the sanitation sewage system),
that would be a likely reason it was later cut off and something else done.

What is done w/ the cistern water between rains? If it isn't being used
for irrigation or other purposes, might as well just put a diverter on
the downspout(s) and lead them away from the house where the water than
doesn't fall on the roof goes -- there's far more of it than what comes
off the roof, anyway.

If using the cistern water, then if it fills w/o the gutters overflowing
you have plenty of flow path and once it's full after a rain, same
thing--the rest is just excess.

--

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:24:42 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:
snip

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging this
up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and removing a
large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate

If you can get a stiff wire or a smaller metal snake (like an
electrician's snake (steel, not fiberglass)) down the pipe, you can
rent a cable/pipe locator.

You clip a connection from the locator onto the snake and that drives
it with a signal. Then the locator head senses that signal to locate
the path of the wire. The better units will even estimate how deep
the line is.

A well stocked rental yard will have one of these. They're usually
called magnetic cable locators. It takes some fussing around, but
they work.

HTH,

Paul F.

On Aug 26, 1:15 pm, Paul Franklin
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:24:42 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:
snip

So here's the question; is there any way to determine where exactly a
PVC drain pipe runs if you can't snake it without digging? Digging this
up would likely involve draining the cistern, moving it, and removing a
large concrete pad.

thanks,

nate

If you can get a stiff wire or a smaller metal snake (like an
electrician's snake (steel, not fiberglass)) down the pipe, you can
rent a cable/pipe locator.

You clip a connection from the locator onto the snake and that drives
it with a signal. Then the locator head senses that signal to locate
the path of the wire. The better units will even estimate how deep
the line is.

A well stocked rental yard will have one of these. They're usually
called magnetic cable locators. It takes some fussing around, but
they work.

HTH,

Paul F.

Another idea is smoke testing. You can purchase smoke pellets from
Lab Safety Supply. Toss one in, and if you need to, blow some air to
push the smoke around. Might try a shop vac or a hair dryer or an air
compressor turned way down.

Kitep wrote:
If the drain can empty a garden hose & it's not coming out at the street, I
would say they're either not connected or there's a serious break in
between.

Ah, yes, but which, is the question?


Plumbers have cameras they can send down pipes to see what's going on. It's
up to you to decide if curiousity is worth spending $$ on.


It's either that or digging, looks like. I will see if I can rent one
of those gadgets mentioned in another post, but based on a quick web
search, I am guessing it wouldn't be any cheaper/easier. My local
rental place has extortionate prices...

nate




--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

A downspout drain? Damn, never heard of one. I guess I need to get out
more, or maybe I just live in a different part of the country.
{Sorry long post.}

Smitty-Two:
I am sure you have heard about this. I am now living in my third house
where as part of the local municipal property transfer process, there must
be an inspection of the down-spouts not being tied into either the sewer
system, nor the street storm drain system by way of a downspout drain;
direct tie-in, nor drain pipe to street curb. The inspector dumps a
powerful dye in the roof gutter, and sprays water or some such while some
one else watches the water color at a manhole cover or street. Seller of
house must make repairs before sale of home can go through. As far as I
know, this requirement was mandated at a higher government level.

When I lived near Pittsburgh, PA, heavy rains, combined with slope of land,
and downspout runoff could erode a good hunk of yard down the hill to your
neighbor. The home I purchased there had to have a backhoe dig a 6'X6'X6'
deep hole, filled with gravel and covered with 2' of soil. Size and
location of 'dry well' ended up on county land plot document given to new
buyer when house was sold again.

I don't know all the details, but rain surge water in sewage system can
overwhelm a sewage process plant thus forcing raw sewage into water ways.
Plus storm drain systems are more often now required to filter out yard and
leaf debris as best they can before discharging rain water into water ways.
Downspout adds to amount of water to be filtered. Where I live now, the
debris filtering is designed to overflow (raw discharge leaf debris) only
during real heavy rains.

As far as the O.P. of this thread goes, what I as sure of is that his
neighbors will have almost the same problem of rain runoff potential
problem. What is the solution the neighbors have, and also, what does the
municipal building inspector have to say. The O.P. could be correct, the
size of the cistern is too small, but a larger cistern would be more of a
mosquito egg laying and breading pit than helpful for rain run-off.

I did hear on one of the Home-repair PBS shows that downspout rain water was
collected in one region of USA so the garden water was not added to water
bill (very high water and sewage rates,) not for rain runoff reasons.

Phil

On Aug 26, 4:40 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Kitep wrote:
If the drain can empty a garden hose & it's not coming out at the street, I
would say they're either not connected or there's a serious break in
between.

Ah, yes, but which, is the question?



Plumbers have cameras they can send down pipes to see what's going on. It's
up to you to decide if curiousity is worth spending $$ on.

It's either that or digging, looks like. I will see if I can rent one
of those gadgets mentioned in another post, but based on a quick web
search, I am guessing it wouldn't be any cheaper/easier. My local
rental place has extortionate prices...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Why do you need to find out for sure where some unknown pipe is
going? If the water flows from the gutters to the above ground
cistern and the cistern has an overflow, why not just do something
with a short length of pipe or similar to channel the overflow water
10 ft away from the house? Many houses have simple splash blocks
that only carry the water 3 ft from the foundation, have proper
grading and have no problems.

On Aug 27, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Aug 26, 4:40 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:





Kitep wrote:
If the drain can empty a garden hose & it's not coming out at the street, I
would say they're either not connected or there's a serious break in
between.

Ah, yes, but which, is the question?

Plumbers have cameras they can send down pipes to see what's going on. It's
up to you to decide if curiousity is worth spending $$ on.

It's either that or digging, looks like. I will see if I can rent one
of those gadgets mentioned in another post, but based on a quick web
search, I am guessing it wouldn't be any cheaper/easier. My local
rental place has extortionate prices...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Why do you need to find out for sure where some unknown pipe is
going? If the water flows from the gutters to the above ground
cistern and the cistern has an overflow, why not just do something
with a short length of pipe or similar to channel the overflow water
10 ft away from the house? Many houses have simple splash blocks
that only carry the water 3 ft from the foundation, have proper
grading and have no problems.

because if the mystery pipe does not drain correctly, really the only
viable option would be to dig up my yard and lay some pipe to channel
the water to the street. the gutter in question is on the back side
of the house, and my whole lot is sloped toward the street, and I
don't have enough space to direct it away from the house sideways
without likely causing puddles in my neighbor's yard next to her
house. (I don't know exactly the distance between the edge of the
house and the property line, but it is less than 10 ft. for sure. Lot
is long but narrow, and less than 1/4 acre anyway.)

The other option would be to strap some PVC to the underside of my
deck, which is the full width of the house, and drain it to the
driveway and let it run to the street that way, but I don't know if
that would cause icing issues in the winter. I've already done that
with the front gutter as that is how that appears to have always been
(no drain pipe evident for that downspout)

nate

On Aug 27, 10:38 am, N8N wrote:
On Aug 27, 10:01 am, wrote:





On Aug 26, 4:40 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

Kitep wrote:
If the drain can empty a garden hose & it's not coming out at the street, I
would say they're either not connected or there's a serious break in
between.

Ah, yes, but which, is the question?

Plumbers have cameras they can send down pipes to see what's going on. It's
up to you to decide if curiousity is worth spending $$ on.

It's either that or digging, looks like. I will see if I can rent one
of those gadgets mentioned in another post, but based on a quick web
search, I am guessing it wouldn't be any cheaper/easier. My local
rental place has extortionate prices...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Why do you need to find out for sure where some unknown pipe is
going? If the water flows from the gutters to the above ground
cistern and the cistern has an overflow, why not just do something
with a short length of pipe or similar to channel the overflow water
10 ft away from the house? Many houses have simple splash blocks
that only carry the water 3 ft from the foundation, have proper
grading and have no problems.

because if the mystery pipe does not drain correctly, really the only
viable option would be to dig up my yard and lay some pipe to channel
the water to the street. the gutter in question is on the back side
of the house, and my whole lot is sloped toward the street, and I
don't have enough space to direct it away from the house sideways
without likely causing puddles in my neighbor's yard next to her
house. (I don't know exactly the distance between the edge of the
house and the property line, but it is less than 10 ft. for sure. Lot
is long but narrow, and less than 1/4 acre anyway.)

The other option would be to strap some PVC to the underside of my
deck, which is the full width of the house, and drain it to the
driveway and let it run to the street that way, but I don't know if
that would cause icing issues in the winter. I've already done that
with the front gutter as that is how that appears to have always been
(no drain pipe evident for that downspout)

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Don't know the geometry here, but apparently you can snake it from the
street and it's clear for as long as the longest snake you have. And
you can only snake it a short distance from the other end, until you
get caught in an S curve. I assume the pipe is visible at that point,
otherwise how do u know it's an S?

If it is in fact some kind of S that is the problem, then I'd cut the
pipe at that point so you can deal with two segments of straighter
runs. Then you need a snake long enough to work the longest length
you have. You could also try a long enough snake from street, as is,
without taking out the S.

In article ,
"Phil-In-Mich." wrote:

A downspout drain? Damn, never heard of one. I guess I need to get out
more, or maybe I just live in a different part of the country.
{Sorry long post.}

Smitty-Two:
I am sure you have heard about this. I am now living in my third house
where as part of the local municipal property transfer process, there must
be an inspection of the down-spouts not being tied into either the sewer
system, nor the street storm drain system by way of a downspout drain;
direct tie-in, nor drain pipe to street curb. The inspector dumps a
powerful dye in the roof gutter, and sprays water or some such while some
one else watches the water color at a manhole cover or street. Seller of
house must make repairs before sale of home can go through. As far as I
know, this requirement was mandated at a higher government level.

When I lived near Pittsburgh, PA, heavy rains, combined with slope of land,
and downspout runoff could erode a good hunk of yard down the hill to your
neighbor. The home I purchased there had to have a backhoe dig a 6'X6'X6'
deep hole, filled with gravel and covered with 2' of soil. Size and
location of 'dry well' ended up on county land plot document given to new
buyer when house was sold again.

I don't know all the details, but rain surge water in sewage system can
overwhelm a sewage process plant thus forcing raw sewage into water ways.
Plus storm drain systems are more often now required to filter out yard and
leaf debris as best they can before discharging rain water into water ways.
Downspout adds to amount of water to be filtered. Where I live now, the
debris filtering is designed to overflow (raw discharge leaf debris) only
during real heavy rains.

As far as the O.P. of this thread goes, what I as sure of is that his
neighbors will have almost the same problem of rain runoff potential
problem. What is the solution the neighbors have, and also, what does the
municipal building inspector have to say. The O.P. could be correct, the
size of the cistern is too small, but a larger cistern would be more of a
mosquito egg laying and breading pit than helpful for rain run-off.

I did hear on one of the Home-repair PBS shows that downspout rain water was
collected in one region of USA so the garden water was not added to water
bill (very high water and sewage rates,) not for rain runoff reasons.

Phil

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I never lived where all the dirt was
paved over. Gutters direct roof water to a location where it won't fall
on your head or erode your planter beds. The downspout keeps the water
from digging a hole, and points it away from the foundation. The dirt
soaks it up, along with all the rain that *didn't* happen to fall on the
roof. All these french drains and neighbors fighting over the slope of
the land seem like good examples of how silly it is to build homes six
feet apart, and/or in swamp land.