Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

On Aug 21, 7:54 pm, albee wrote:
Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

connection going bad somwhere. id be looking for a bad wirenut
connection, sometimes a crimp corroeded and or loose screws on outlet.
should check voltage at breaker first, pull out devices in question
get reading directly from wires.
darn those backstabbed outlets!!

albee wrote:

Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

70 volts: seems unlikely. I might first suspect his meter or measurement
technique. If he has a modern high impedance meter, I might then suspect
a connection (either to the meter, or in the outlet) that is not
quite there and he is getting capacitive coupling. Try it with a load
(such as a lamp) on the outlet.

Have him check for tripped GFCI devices, which depending upon when the house
was built could be located in another bathroom, a garage, or outside



"albee" wrote in message
news
Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:26:55 GMT, M Q
wrote:

albee wrote:

Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

70 volts: seems unlikely. I might first suspect his meter or measurement
technique. If he has a modern high impedance meter, I might then suspect
a connection (either to the meter, or in the outlet) that is not
quite there and he is getting capacitive coupling. Try it with a load
(such as a lamp) on the outlet.

He's getting 120 at his other outlets, so appears his device/technique
isn't at issue. By try it with a load, do you mean simply see if the
appliance works, or is there a way to test the power with a multimeter
while under load? Thanks.

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:21:24 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Have him check for tripped GFCI devices, which depending upon when the house
was built could be located in another bathroom, a garage, or outside
Thanks. House was built in '88. He said he didn't have GFCI at the
faulty outlets, fwiw. Tomorrow I'll have him check other locations for
tripped ones, but what's happening that they would cause the low
voltage at the ones in question?



"albee" wrote in message
news
Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:15:25 -0700, sym
wrote:

On Aug 21, 7:54 pm, albee wrote:
Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

connection going bad somwhere. id be looking for a bad wirenut
connection, sometimes a crimp corroeded and or loose screws on outlet.
should check voltage at breaker first, pull out devices in question
get reading directly from wires.
darn those backstabbed outlets!!

Thanks. I'll see if he checked at the wires behind the outlets. Is it
tough to test at the breaker? Does all the power to the breaker/house
have to be dealt with to do so. I've got a Stanley book on wiring from
HD I'll check tonight, too, but if it's a simple answer, feel free.
I'm definitely not going to guess or wing it! Thanks.

The low voltage situation is questionable, not knowing how he's testing the
circuit. A house built in 88' would have required GFCI protection for a
bathroom outlet, and to wire this economically, (cheap) the electrician
could have installed a GFCI outlet in another required location, such as
garage and outside, and fed these outlets off its load side



"albee" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:21:24 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Have him check for tripped GFCI devices, which depending upon when the
house
was built could be located in another bathroom, a garage, or outside
Thanks. House was built in '88. He said he didn't have GFCI at the
faulty outlets, fwiw. Tomorrow I'll have him check other locations for
tripped ones, but what's happening that they would cause the low
voltage at the ones in question?



"albee" wrote in message
news
Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

"albee" wrote in message
news
Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

There is only one way he could actually be getting 70v at an outlet. The
outlet is on a multiwire circuit that has lost its neutral; so one side is
seeing 70v and the other side is seeing 170v. Very dangerous situation;
also rather unlikely.

The other posibility is that you have an open circuit and the meter is
showing a false reading. Does a lamp work in the outlets? If it does, turn
it on at one outlet and measure the voltage at both that outlet and the
other bad one.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:19:18 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
news
Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!

There is only one way he could actually be getting 70v at an outlet. The
outlet is on a multiwire circuit that has lost its neutral; so one side is
seeing 70v and the other side is seeing 170v. Very dangerous situation;
also rather unlikely.

The other posibility is that you have an open circuit and the meter is
showing a false reading. Does a lamp work in the outlets? If it does, turn
it on at one outlet and measure the voltage at both that outlet and the
other bad one.

Well, I just went over and it tested at 5 volts or so, and down to
none. Now, fwiw, he says that when he put up a light fixture, he
drilled into the wall (awhile ago) and must've hit a wire, because he
got a short. But he continued on and hooked it up, and that light
works fine. So don't know if that helps diagnose this at all, though
I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:

I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:34:14 -0700, Joe wrote:

On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:

I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe

I will admit he's worse than me, but even I wouldn't want to tear up
and repair drywall if it weren't necessary. I'm sure he'll do it if it
is, but since his light's been working, he's not sure that's what the
problem is.
Any thoughts what's going on with the outlets? Thanks again.

In article ,
albee wrote:

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:34:14 -0700, Joe wrote:

On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:

I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe

I will admit he's worse than me, but even I wouldn't want to tear up
and repair drywall if it weren't necessary. I'm sure he'll do it if it
is, but since his light's been working, he's not sure that's what the
problem is.
Any thoughts what's going on with the outlets? Thanks again.

Well, yeah. An open circuit. Forget about the 70 volt reading, that may
well have been erroneous. After you gave him the heads up about the
backstabbing issue, did he do anything about it? As a first step,
suggest he removes the outlets in question and alligator clip a lamp to
the wires themselves. That will verify voltage and current in the
circuit.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:41:12 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
albee wrote:

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:34:14 -0700, Joe wrote:

On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:

I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe

I will admit he's worse than me, but even I wouldn't want to tear up
and repair drywall if it weren't necessary. I'm sure he'll do it if it
is, but since his light's been working, he's not sure that's what the
problem is.
Any thoughts what's going on with the outlets? Thanks again.

Well, yeah. An open circuit. Forget about the 70 volt reading, that may
well have been erroneous. After you gave him the heads up about the
backstabbing issue, did he do anything about it? As a first step,
suggest he removes the outlets in question and alligator clip a lamp to
the wires themselves. That will verify voltage and current in the
circuit.
Okay, new info. Turns out we found the circuit, and it appears to be
the one outlet in the bathroom and the one on the patio, both on a
GFCI. But they're separate from the lights in the bathroom. And, I
continue to get 4-5 volts at them, while my neighbor gets 70. He's got
a quality, older analog tester, but a big one where you can zero it
out and all. Mine's a newer digital. Both of ours test a live, good
circuit at 120, and a dead at zero. But either his reads wrong at a
lower voltage, or mine does. I'm thinking mine isn't as sensitive at
those lower levels? I'm fine if it's 120 or 0, but have a concern that
if one's putting out 40 mine might read 0.

As to what's going on with it...? Would it make sense that he
partially severed the line while drilling awhile back, and half or so
of the wires are still sending power to the outlets?

albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:41:12 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:


In article ,
albee wrote:


On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:34:14 -0700, Joe wrote:


On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:


I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe


I will admit he's worse than me, but even I wouldn't want to tear up
and repair drywall if it weren't necessary. I'm sure he'll do it if it
is, but since his light's been working, he's not sure that's what the
problem is.
Any thoughts what's going on with the outlets? Thanks again.

Well, yeah. An open circuit. Forget about the 70 volt reading, that may
well have been erroneous. After you gave him the heads up about the
backstabbing issue, did he do anything about it? As a first step,
suggest he removes the outlets in question and alligator clip a lamp to
the wires themselves. That will verify voltage and current in the
circuit.

Okay, new info. Turns out we found the circuit, and it appears to be
the one outlet in the bathroom and the one on the patio, both on a
GFCI. But they're separate from the lights in the bathroom. And, I
continue to get 4-5 volts at them, while my neighbor gets 70. He's got
a quality, older analog tester, but a big one where you can zero it
out and all. Mine's a newer digital. Both of ours test a live, good
circuit at 120, and a dead at zero. But either his reads wrong at a
lower voltage, or mine does. I'm thinking mine isn't as sensitive at
those lower levels? I'm fine if it's 120 or 0, but have a concern that
if one's putting out 40 mine might read 0.

As to what's going on with it...? Would it make sense that he
partially severed the line while drilling awhile back, and half or so
of the wires are still sending power to the outlets?

plug a lamp into the outlet then read the voltage. putting a load on it
should get rid of any induced voltage that can't stand up to a load.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:24:48 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:41:12 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:


In article ,
albee wrote:


On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:34:14 -0700, Joe wrote:


On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:


I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe


I will admit he's worse than me, but even I wouldn't want to tear up
and repair drywall if it weren't necessary. I'm sure he'll do it if it
is, but since his light's been working, he's not sure that's what the
problem is.
Any thoughts what's going on with the outlets? Thanks again.

Well, yeah. An open circuit. Forget about the 70 volt reading, that may
well have been erroneous. After you gave him the heads up about the
backstabbing issue, did he do anything about it? As a first step,
suggest he removes the outlets in question and alligator clip a lamp to
the wires themselves. That will verify voltage and current in the
circuit.

Okay, new info. Turns out we found the circuit, and it appears to be
the one outlet in the bathroom and the one on the patio, both on a
GFCI. But they're separate from the lights in the bathroom. And, I
continue to get 4-5 volts at them, while my neighbor gets 70. He's got
a quality, older analog tester, but a big one where you can zero it
out and all. Mine's a newer digital. Both of ours test a live, good
circuit at 120, and a dead at zero. But either his reads wrong at a
lower voltage, or mine does. I'm thinking mine isn't as sensitive at
those lower levels? I'm fine if it's 120 or 0, but have a concern that
if one's putting out 40 mine might read 0.

As to what's going on with it...? Would it make sense that he
partially severed the line while drilling awhile back, and half or so
of the wires are still sending power to the outlets?

plug a lamp into the outlet then read the voltage. putting a load on it
should get rid of any induced voltage that can't stand up to a load.

nate
Thanks; will try that tomorrow. Someone else had mentioned what I
thought was what you're saying, but I wasn't sure and never got a
clarification. And having almost nil (okay, nil) electrical
experience, I just googled for induced load to try to understand this.
Are you saying that the smallish voltage that we're getting could be
from a line running parallel to the one we're testing? And that by
plugging a lamp in, it will pull that small load and essentially get
rid of it, so our test should then read 0? And if so, where do we test
it? If with the outlet pulled out and we test the wires/screws where
they attach to the outlet, we'd be testing right before the voltage
gets to the lamp. Is that right? Thanks for the help, and patience.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:03:54 -0400, albee wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:24:48 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:41:12 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:


In article ,
albee wrote:


On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:34:14 -0700, Joe wrote:


On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:


I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe


I will admit he's worse than me, but even I wouldn't want to tear up
and repair drywall if it weren't necessary. I'm sure he'll do it if it
is, but since his light's been working, he's not sure that's what the
problem is.
Any thoughts what's going on with the outlets? Thanks again.

Well, yeah. An open circuit. Forget about the 70 volt reading, that may
well have been erroneous. After you gave him the heads up about the
backstabbing issue, did he do anything about it? As a first step,
suggest he removes the outlets in question and alligator clip a lamp to
the wires themselves. That will verify voltage and current in the
circuit.

Okay, new info. Turns out we found the circuit, and it appears to be
the one outlet in the bathroom and the one on the patio, both on a
GFCI. But they're separate from the lights in the bathroom. And, I
continue to get 4-5 volts at them, while my neighbor gets 70. He's got
a quality, older analog tester, but a big one where you can zero it
out and all. Mine's a newer digital. Both of ours test a live, good
circuit at 120, and a dead at zero. But either his reads wrong at a
lower voltage, or mine does. I'm thinking mine isn't as sensitive at
those lower levels? I'm fine if it's 120 or 0, but have a concern that
if one's putting out 40 mine might read 0.

As to what's going on with it...? Would it make sense that he
partially severed the line while drilling awhile back, and half or so
of the wires are still sending power to the outlets?

plug a lamp into the outlet then read the voltage. putting a load on it
should get rid of any induced voltage that can't stand up to a load.

nate
Thanks; will try that tomorrow. Someone else had mentioned what I
thought was what you're saying, but I wasn't sure and never got a
clarification. And having almost nil (okay, nil) electrical
experience, I just googled for induced load to try to understand this.
Are you saying that the smallish voltage that we're getting could be
from a line running parallel to the one we're testing? And that by
plugging a lamp in, it will pull that small load and essentially get
rid of it, so our test should then read 0? And if so, where do we test
it? If with the outlet pulled out and we test the wires/screws where
they attach to the outlet, we'd be testing right before the voltage
gets to the lamp. Is that right? Thanks for the help, and patience.

Your tester should read the full 120v. You can test it by plugging a
lamp in one socket and the tester in the other. You don't have to
take it out of the wall.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:16:03 -0400, Terry
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:03:54 -0400, albee wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:24:48 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:41:12 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:


In article ,
albee wrote:


On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:34:14 -0700, Joe wrote:


On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:


I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

Now isn't that really dumb? Any one with an IQ larger than his shoe
size would want to fix the problem. If he is in denial about other
problems he should see a shrink for help. How sad.

Joe


I will admit he's worse than me, but even I wouldn't want to tear up
and repair drywall if it weren't necessary. I'm sure he'll do it if it
is, but since his light's been working, he's not sure that's what the
problem is.
Any thoughts what's going on with the outlets? Thanks again.

Well, yeah. An open circuit. Forget about the 70 volt reading, that may
well have been erroneous. After you gave him the heads up about the
backstabbing issue, did he do anything about it? As a first step,
suggest he removes the outlets in question and alligator clip a lamp to
the wires themselves. That will verify voltage and current in the
circuit.

Okay, new info. Turns out we found the circuit, and it appears to be
the one outlet in the bathroom and the one on the patio, both on a
GFCI. But they're separate from the lights in the bathroom. And, I
continue to get 4-5 volts at them, while my neighbor gets 70. He's got
a quality, older analog tester, but a big one where you can zero it
out and all. Mine's a newer digital. Both of ours test a live, good
circuit at 120, and a dead at zero. But either his reads wrong at a
lower voltage, or mine does. I'm thinking mine isn't as sensitive at
those lower levels? I'm fine if it's 120 or 0, but have a concern that
if one's putting out 40 mine might read 0.

As to what's going on with it...? Would it make sense that he
partially severed the line while drilling awhile back, and half or so
of the wires are still sending power to the outlets?

plug a lamp into the outlet then read the voltage. putting a load on it
should get rid of any induced voltage that can't stand up to a load.

nate
Thanks; will try that tomorrow. Someone else had mentioned what I
thought was what you're saying, but I wasn't sure and never got a
clarification. And having almost nil (okay, nil) electrical
experience, I just googled for induced load to try to understand this.
Are you saying that the smallish voltage that we're getting could be
from a line running parallel to the one we're testing? And that by
plugging a lamp in, it will pull that small load and essentially get
rid of it, so our test should then read 0? And if so, where do we test
it? If with the outlet pulled out and we test the wires/screws where
they attach to the outlet, we'd be testing right before the voltage
gets to the lamp. Is that right? Thanks for the help, and patience.

Your tester should read the full 120v. You can test it by plugging a
lamp in one socket and the tester in the other. You don't have to
take it out of the wall.
Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

albee wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:16:03 -0400, Terry
wrote:

....
On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:



I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

....

Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable
and fish a new one.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:46:42 GMT, M Q
wrote:

albee wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:16:03 -0400, Terry
wrote:

...
On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:



I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

...

Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable
and fish a new one.
Both/either? Jeez, glad this is my neighbor and not me! Turns out he,
so far, has only cut a small enough hole to access the specific
damaged place. I told him to, as long as he's doing that, just cut a
large enough piece to make the job easier. He's probably going to be
doing that this weekend.
Could you clarify the needing of 2 junction boxes if it's short?
Acessibility?! Here in FL, we don't need no stinking basements... Nor
attics, to speak of. The one outlet is close by, and wouldn't be bad.
The other one goes about 60 feet to a patio, and I'm a bit stumped,
since it doesn't come off of the closer outlet. Okay, just realized I
don't understand how our "romex", as I'm told we must have, is
working.
I had a problem with one of my outlets, too (different thread). When I
fixed that, I had just the 4 lines (it's switched) coming in to my
outlet. If it's how I was thinking, I'm thinking I should have wires
going back out to the next outlet/light, too. No? Or does the lack of
others (and in my neighbor's case, his is unswitched and he just has 2
wires coming in) indicate that it's pigtailed? Which brings me back to
my neighbor's problem:
He'll have to find where the patio one is pigtailed from, huh?
Obviously, fishing a new one that far will be a bit harder. Again,
thanks for any and all help!

lbee wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:46:42 GMT, M Q
wrote:


....

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility

from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable

and fish a new one.

Both/either? Jeez, glad this is my neighbor and not me! Turns out he,
so far, has only cut a small enough hole to access the specific
damaged place. I told him to, as long as he's doing that, just cut a
large enough piece to make the job easier. He's probably going to be
doing that this weekend.
Could you clarify the needing of 2 junction boxes if it's short?
Acessibility?! Here in FL, we don't need no stinking basements... Nor
....

Assuming that you don't mind putting the junction box exactly
where the damage is, you probably need at least 6-8 inches from
each end in the junction box to make the splice. So unless
you can find 14-16 of slack in your romex, you would need to
splice in an additional piece, which means a second junction box.

But before you do all this, there might be some listed devices and
materials for legally making a repair that I don't know about.
You may want to ask around at an electrical supply shop,
or even ask a licensed electrician(!).

It really sounds like a tough job to repair one little break.
I hope that there is a better solution than I am suggesting.

On Aug 24, 12:51 pm, albee wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:46:42 GMT, M Q

If the copper in the wire is not damaged then you can repair it with
electrical tape. 0.15$ solution and perfectly safe.

On Aug 24, 12:51 pm, albee wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:46:42 GMT, M Q
wrote:





albee wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:16:03 -0400, Terry
wrote:

...
On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:

I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

...

Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable
and fish a new one.

Both/either? Jeez, glad this is my neighbor and not me! Turns out he,
so far, has only cut a small enough hole to access the specific
damaged place. I told him to, as long as he's doing that, just cut a
large enough piece to make the job easier. He's probably going to be
doing that this weekend.
Could you clarify the needing of 2 junction boxes if it's short?
Acessibility?! Here in FL, we don't need no stinking basements... Nor
attics, to speak of. The one outlet is close by, and wouldn't be bad.
The other one goes about 60 feet to a patio, and I'm a bit stumped,
since it doesn't come off of the closer outlet. Okay, just realized I
don't understand how our "romex", as I'm told we must have, is
working.
I had a problem with one of my outlets, too (different thread). When I
fixed that, I had just the 4 lines (it's switched) coming in to my
outlet. If it's how I was thinking, I'm thinking I should have wires
going back out to the next outlet/light, too. No? Or does the lack of
others (and in my neighbor's case, his is unswitched and he just has 2
wires coming in) indicate that it's pigtailed? Which brings me back to
my neighbor's problem:
He'll have to find where the patio one is pigtailed from, huh?
Obviously, fishing a new one that far will be a bit harder. Again,
thanks for any and all help!

If you do have to splice the existing wire, post a picture before you
do anything. You can alter the pic with MSPaint to label it. It
doesn't have to be pretty, just informative.

Someone might be able to suggest something much simpler if you can
show the actual damage.

albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:26:55 GMT, M Q
wrote:

albee wrote:

Since I got such great help on my last problem...

This is actually for my neighbor. Since his house was built by the
same people, I gave him a heads-up about the backstabbed outlets.
Turns out he said his one bathroom and a patio outlet are only reading
70 volts. He doesn't know if they're on the same circuit or not. Any
thoughts? Thanks again!
70 volts: seems unlikely. I might first suspect his meter or measurement
technique. If he has a modern high impedance meter, I might then suspect
a connection (either to the meter, or in the outlet) that is not
quite there and he is getting capacitive coupling. Try it with a load
(such as a lamp) on the outlet.

He's getting 120 at his other outlets, so appears his device/technique
isn't at issue. By try it with a load, do you mean simply see if the
appliance works, or is there a way to test the power with a multimeter
while under load? Thanks.

Not necessarily. If a circuit is complete and one measures the voltage
120V would be expected whether the meter is high or low-impedance. One
would also expect a lamp plugged into it to be at full brightness. If a
circuit is incomplete (an open conductor somewhere) one would expect a
high-impedance meter to read something more than 0V but less than 120V.
A low-impedance meter would read 0V or very close to it and a lamp
plugged into it would not light. I would far rather depend on the lamp
test than on a high-impedance meter in the hands of an amateur. Oh, and
it is quite easy to test under load by simply connecting the meter in
parallel with the load.

One interesting test would be to plug a known-good lamp into the top
half of one of these low-voltage outlets to see if it works. Then into
the bottom half. If the lamp doesn't light in either case I would look
around the room for a switch near the entrance which doesn't seem to
have any other function and flip it to the other position. Then try the
lamp test again. You'd be surprised how many people have outlets in
their homes which are switch operated, either in part or in whole, and
don't realize it.

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:22:44 -0700, Terry
wrote:

On Aug 24, 12:51 pm, albee wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:46:42 GMT, M Q
wrote:





albee wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:16:03 -0400, Terry
wrote:

...
On Aug 22, 5:54 pm, albee wrote:

I'm sure you guys will recommend checking behind the wall where he
drilled. He just doesn't want to have to do that, though.

...

Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable
and fish a new one.

Both/either? Jeez, glad this is my neighbor and not me! Turns out he,
so far, has only cut a small enough hole to access the specific
damaged place. I told him to, as long as he's doing that, just cut a
large enough piece to make the job easier. He's probably going to be
doing that this weekend.
Could you clarify the needing of 2 junction boxes if it's short?
Acessibility?! Here in FL, we don't need no stinking basements... Nor
attics, to speak of. The one outlet is close by, and wouldn't be bad.
The other one goes about 60 feet to a patio, and I'm a bit stumped,
since it doesn't come off of the closer outlet. Okay, just realized I
don't understand how our "romex", as I'm told we must have, is
working.
I had a problem with one of my outlets, too (different thread). When I
fixed that, I had just the 4 lines (it's switched) coming in to my
outlet. If it's how I was thinking, I'm thinking I should have wires
going back out to the next outlet/light, too. No? Or does the lack of
others (and in my neighbor's case, his is unswitched and he just has 2
wires coming in) indicate that it's pigtailed? Which brings me back to
my neighbor's problem:
He'll have to find where the patio one is pigtailed from, huh?
Obviously, fishing a new one that far will be a bit harder. Again,
thanks for any and all help!

If you do have to splice the existing wire, post a picture before you
do anything. You can alter the pic with MSPaint to label it. It
doesn't have to be pretty, just informative.

Someone might be able to suggest something much simpler if you can
show the actual damage.

Thanks. I haven't seen it myself. He was mentioning tape, but if the
wire isn't damaged, why would there be a problem now? Unless he
drilled through the insulation between two wires, shorting them
together? Don't know, but will post before repair. Thanks again.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:17:08 -0400, albee wrote:



Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable
and fish a new one.


Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 18:05:45 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:17:08 -0400, albee wrote:



Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable
and fish a new one.


Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!
Okay, I'm guessing this is going to be a big "duh", due to it being a
GFCI circuit, but we'll see. Just to clarify, it's a GFCI circuit (at
least it's labeled that way at the breaker box!), but the outlets are
NOT GFCI-type. Wondering if the outlets are supposed to be wired with
the black and "ground", and that the white isn't needed since it's
gfci? It wasn't wired like that before, but my neighbor isn't positive
that it worked before, either! How do you test to make sure it's
grounded? Thanks again.

In article ,
albee wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 18:05:45 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:17:08 -0400, albee wrote:



Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though. Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing cable
and fish a new one.


Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!
Okay, I'm guessing this is going to be a big "duh", due to it being a
GFCI circuit, but we'll see. Just to clarify, it's a GFCI circuit (at
least it's labeled that way at the breaker box!), but the outlets are
NOT GFCI-type. Wondering if the outlets are supposed to be wired with
the black and "ground", and that the white isn't needed since it's
gfci? It wasn't wired like that before, but my neighbor isn't positive
that it worked before, either! How do you test to make sure it's
grounded? Thanks again.

With respect, I know this is a DIY group, but I'm thinking maybe you and
your neighbor should let this particular problem out to an electrician.
It seems that perhaps you're not well versed enough in electrical
fundamentals to succeed safely at this repair, even with guidance from
this group.

Ultimately, you need to repair the damaged conductor, but first of all, as I
said originally, you need to find the GFCI device that's protecting the
circuit. If it's not a GFCI breaker, it's probably going to be an upstream
GFCI outlet from the point of the non functioning outlets. When GFCI outlets
trip, at least some models, depending upon age, will open both neutral and
hot conductors. Since your neutral conductor is intact, but dead, I would be
looking for a problem with the upstream GFCI device



"albee" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 18:05:45 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:17:08 -0400, albee wrote:



Thanks. It appears what happened what he was getting bleedover, for
lack of a better term (is that induced voltage?) from the light
line
running parallel to it. Anyway, he's cut away at the wall, but is
having trouble trying to repair the damaged one. What's the best
way
to repair this. Not sure of the gauge. It's copper wire, though.
Also,
one problem he's having is he can't pull it away from the wall
because
it's stapled up and down so tightly.
Anyone's best solution for him would be much appreciated!

Best, or legal? or both?
Somebody please correct me and cite code section if I am wrong, but
I believe that there is no code permitted way to have a splice
concealed
behind drywall. You will need a junction box with an accessible
cover.
And since the cable will be short, you may even need two.
Since you have already ripped up drywall, best to replace the cable
all
the way to the outlet boxes, or at least to a location where you are
willing to put in an additional outlet. Depending upon accessibility
from attic or basement, you may want to just abandon the existing
cable
and fish a new one.


Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!
Okay, I'm guessing this is going to be a big "duh", due to it being a
GFCI circuit, but we'll see. Just to clarify, it's a GFCI circuit (at
least it's labeled that way at the breaker box!), but the outlets are
NOT GFCI-type. Wondering if the outlets are supposed to be wired with
the black and "ground", and that the white isn't needed since it's
gfci? It wasn't wired like that before, but my neighbor isn't positive
that it worked before, either! How do you test to make sure it's
grounded? Thanks again.

albee wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 18:05:45 -0400, albee wrote:


....
Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!

Okay, I'm guessing this is going to be a big "duh", due to it being a
GFCI circuit, but we'll see. Just to clarify, it's a GFCI circuit (at
least it's labeled that way at the breaker box!), but the outlets are
NOT GFCI-type. Wondering if the outlets are supposed to be wired with
the black and "ground", and that the white isn't needed since it's
gfci? It wasn't wired like that before, but my neighbor isn't positive
that it worked before, either! How do you test to make sure it's
grounded? Thanks again.

I am afraid that I would have to agree with Smitty Two: you need to get
the help of someone who is somewhat more familliar with electrical circuits
before you do any further damage.

Is the breaker a GFCI breaker? If not, where is the GFCI in the circuit?
You said that one of the outlets in on a patio. Which one is "upstream"?
Shut off the power, get one of those non-contact electrical testers
to make sure that the power is really off, and then use an ohm-meter
(and a long extra piece of wire) to determine where you have continuity
or not. Do this from outlet to outlet (or breaker panel), not at the
damage site. For each outlet, use the tester first to make sure there is no power.

If you are unable to diagnose the problem, get some help.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:10:08 GMT, M Q
wrote:



albee wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 18:05:45 -0400, albee wrote:


...
Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!

Okay, I'm guessing this is going to be a big "duh", due to it being a
GFCI circuit, but we'll see. Just to clarify, it's a GFCI circuit (at
least it's labeled that way at the breaker box!), but the outlets are
NOT GFCI-type. Wondering if the outlets are supposed to be wired with
the black and "ground", and that the white isn't needed since it's
gfci? It wasn't wired like that before, but my neighbor isn't positive
that it worked before, either! How do you test to make sure it's
grounded? Thanks again.

I am afraid that I would have to agree with Smitty Two: you need to get
the help of someone who is somewhat more familliar with electrical circuits
before you do any further damage.

Is the breaker a GFCI breaker? If not, where is the GFCI in the circuit?
You said that one of the outlets in on a patio. Which one is "upstream"?
Shut off the power, get one of those non-contact electrical testers
to make sure that the power is really off, and then use an ohm-meter
(and a long extra piece of wire) to determine where you have continuity
or not. Do this from outlet to outlet (or breaker panel), not at the
damage site. For each outlet, use the tester first to make sure there is no power.

If you are unable to diagnose the problem, get some help.

LOL... I understand smitty and your take on this. It is funny (with
danger acknowledged). We're both, indeed pretty ignorant of GFCI
stuff, but also not going to take any action unless we know what we're
doing (or I'm not, anyway)!
I figured some of the above stuff out yesterday, but didn't get to
update it in time. When he told me he had replaced the breaker, and it
was labeled GFCI, I thought he meant the breaker was one. When it
wasn't, I told him the same thing, that since the outlets aren't
gfci's, there must be another outlet/box that he needs to find. That
much for sure.
And I was thinking along the same lines of figuring out the
schematics, so I went next door and found that the bathroom outlet is
the terminating one; the patio, eventhough farther away, comes before
it. He hadn't taken it out, so we did and found the incoming and
outgoing wires in it; only incoming in the bathroom. So odd, though,
that the wires come into the bathroom, where he damaged (?!, maybe
not!) them, and go out to the patio before coming back in to the same
bathroom. I'm thinking (dangerous, I know) that the wires are fine,
and the circuit is tripped upstream still, in between the breaker and
the "site". Though I don't think (there's that word again!) that the
black would be hot, then. The other option, if the black being hot
indicates that the gfci isn't tripped, is that it's wired wrong, and
the "ground" without insulation is hooked to the neutral, and the
white to the ground. No? BTW: this guy has a garage office added on
(different circuit, though), so this may not be original.

Thanks again, and I do appreciate the cautionary notes.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 17:37:32 -0400, albee wrote:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:10:08 GMT, M Q
wrote:



albee wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 18:05:45 -0400, albee wrote:


...
Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!

Okay, I'm guessing this is going to be a big "duh", due to it being a
GFCI circuit, but we'll see. Just to clarify, it's a GFCI circuit (at
least it's labeled that way at the breaker box!), but the outlets are
NOT GFCI-type. Wondering if the outlets are supposed to be wired with
the black and "ground", and that the white isn't needed since it's
gfci? It wasn't wired like that before, but my neighbor isn't positive
that it worked before, either! How do you test to make sure it's
grounded? Thanks again.

I am afraid that I would have to agree with Smitty Two: you need to get
the help of someone who is somewhat more familliar with electrical circuits
before you do any further damage.

Is the breaker a GFCI breaker? If not, where is the GFCI in the circuit?
You said that one of the outlets in on a patio. Which one is "upstream"?
Shut off the power, get one of those non-contact electrical testers
to make sure that the power is really off, and then use an ohm-meter
(and a long extra piece of wire) to determine where you have continuity
or not. Do this from outlet to outlet (or breaker panel), not at the
damage site. For each outlet, use the tester first to make sure there is no power.

If you are unable to diagnose the problem, get some help.

LOL... I understand smitty and your take on this. It is funny (with
danger acknowledged). We're both, indeed pretty ignorant of GFCI
stuff, but also not going to take any action unless we know what we're
doing (or I'm not, anyway)!
I figured some of the above stuff out yesterday, but didn't get to
update it in time. When he told me he had replaced the breaker, and it
was labeled GFCI, I thought he meant the breaker was one. When it
wasn't, I told him the same thing, that since the outlets aren't
gfci's, there must be another outlet/box that he needs to find. That
much for sure.
And I was thinking along the same lines of figuring out the
schematics, so I went next door and found that the bathroom outlet is
the terminating one; the patio, eventhough farther away, comes before
it. He hadn't taken it out, so we did and found the incoming and
outgoing wires in it; only incoming in the bathroom. So odd, though,
that the wires come into the bathroom, where he damaged (?!, maybe
not!) them, and go out to the patio before coming back in to the same
bathroom. I'm thinking (dangerous, I know) that the wires are fine,
and the circuit is tripped upstream still, in between the breaker and
the "site". Though I don't think (there's that word again!) that the
black would be hot, then. The other option, if the black being hot
indicates that the gfci isn't tripped, is that it's wired wrong, and
the "ground" without insulation is hooked to the neutral, and the
white to the ground. No? BTW: this guy has a garage office added on
(different circuit, though), so this may not be original.

Thanks again, and I do appreciate the cautionary notes.
He says he's looked everywhere, and no sign of a GFCI that affects
these two outlets (which aren't GFCI). Any thoughts on how to find it?
He tried tracing the wires in the crawlspace, but only found them
disappearing down the wall near the breaker. Is there a general rule
on where the gfci would be placed in relation to the breaker
box/outlets?
OR, how to test to confirm that they ARE on a GFCI, a way to test for
that?
A few other questions, if I may:
-Does the fact of hot and "ground" reading 120v not indicate something
specific?
-When a GFCI is wired, do I understand it correctly that IT is
grounded, but that the loads coming off of it will be one hot and one
neutra, and no groundl?
-And if so, does his 120v reading on the black and "ground" (bare)
wire indicate that it's coming off the neutral? Or is there some other
way that the black/ground combination would read 120v, when on a GFCI?

Thanks again for your patience and help.

albee wrote:
....

He says he's looked everywhere, and no sign of a GFCI that affects
these two outlets (which aren't GFCI). Any thoughts on how to find it?
He tried tracing the wires in the crawlspace, but only found them
disappearing down the wall near the breaker. Is there a general rule
on where the gfci would be placed in relation to the breaker
box/outlets?
OR, how to test to confirm that they ARE on a GFCI, a way to test for
that?
A few other questions, if I may:
-Does the fact of hot and "ground" reading 120v not indicate something
specific?
-When a GFCI is wired, do I understand it correctly that IT is
grounded, but that the loads coming off of it will be one hot and one
neutra, and no groundl?
-And if so, does his 120v reading on the black and "ground" (bare)
wire indicate that it's coming off the neutral? Or is there some other
way that the black/ground combination would read 120v, when on a GFCI?

Thanks again for your patience and help.

For about 10 bucks, you can get a little test plug that has three lights
and will tell you if an outlet works and is correctly wired. Some of
them have a little button that will trip a GFCI.

Either there is a special GFCI breaker, or more often (and less expensive now)
it is just a special outlet. Roughly, outlets in bathrooms and outdoors
are required to be protected by a GFCI.

A GFCI outlet has 5 connections: a ground, a hot and a neutral coming in,
and to protect additional outlets, a hot and a neutral going out ("load").
You use the same ground for the additional outlets. If the load side neutral
is connected to another neutral or ground, other than through the GFCI,
the GFCI will also trip.

Black (HOT) to bare (ground) should read 120v on any live circuit.
If it is protected by a GFCI, and you put a load across it (more than just
a meter), you should trip the GFCI.

"albee" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 17:37:32 -0400, albee wrote:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:10:08 GMT, M Q
wrote:



albee wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 18:05:45 -0400, albee wrote:


...
Okay, we're still puzzled here. Here's the situation:
It's a GFCI. He drilled into the line, presumable causing this
problem. There are a Black, White and Ground (bare copper) wire
groupled together. He drilled into, nicking the black and ground.
However, we can still get 120v on a multimeter using the Black and the
Ground. But nothing testing the Black and White (actually, I get 5v,
he gets 70v, apparently due to different impedance multimeters).
But the white doesn't appear to have gotten nicked at all. The
insulation appears intact, though it's darkened, presumably (?) from
the nicking, and arcing, of the black and ground.
Is there something specific to GFCI's that we don't understand
white and ground? Is there something else that could have gotten
damaged that's not allowing a Black/White connection to work?
Oh yeah, and he replaced the breaker, just in case, prior to this
latest round of testing.
There's only a couple of inches of space between the drywall and the
brick behind it, so a tight working envirnonment.
Any help or thoughts are much appreciated!

Okay, I'm guessing this is going to be a big "duh", due to it being a
GFCI circuit, but we'll see. Just to clarify, it's a GFCI circuit (at
least it's labeled that way at the breaker box!), but the outlets are
NOT GFCI-type. Wondering if the outlets are supposed to be wired with
the black and "ground", and that the white isn't needed since it's
gfci? It wasn't wired like that before, but my neighbor isn't positive
that it worked before, either! How do you test to make sure it's
grounded? Thanks again.

I am afraid that I would have to agree with Smitty Two: you need to get
the help of someone who is somewhat more familliar with electrical
circuits
before you do any further damage.

Is the breaker a GFCI breaker? If not, where is the GFCI in the circuit?
You said that one of the outlets in on a patio. Which one is "upstream"?
Shut off the power, get one of those non-contact electrical testers
to make sure that the power is really off, and then use an ohm-meter
(and a long extra piece of wire) to determine where you have continuity
or not. Do this from outlet to outlet (or breaker panel), not at the
damage site. For each outlet, use the tester first to make sure there is
no power.

If you are unable to diagnose the problem, get some help.

LOL... I understand smitty and your take on this. It is funny (with
danger acknowledged). We're both, indeed pretty ignorant of GFCI
stuff, but also not going to take any action unless we know what we're
doing (or I'm not, anyway)!
I figured some of the above stuff out yesterday, but didn't get to
update it in time. When he told me he had replaced the breaker, and it
was labeled GFCI, I thought he meant the breaker was one. When it
wasn't, I told him the same thing, that since the outlets aren't
gfci's, there must be another outlet/box that he needs to find. That
much for sure.
And I was thinking along the same lines of figuring out the
schematics, so I went next door and found that the bathroom outlet is
the terminating one; the patio, eventhough farther away, comes before
it. He hadn't taken it out, so we did and found the incoming and
outgoing wires in it; only incoming in the bathroom. So odd, though,
that the wires come into the bathroom, where he damaged (?!, maybe
not!) them, and go out to the patio before coming back in to the same
bathroom. I'm thinking (dangerous, I know) that the wires are fine,
and the circuit is tripped upstream still, in between the breaker and
the "site". Though I don't think (there's that word again!) that the
black would be hot, then. The other option, if the black being hot
indicates that the gfci isn't tripped, is that it's wired wrong, and
the "ground" without insulation is hooked to the neutral, and the
white to the ground. No? BTW: this guy has a garage office added on
(different circuit, though), so this may not be original.

Thanks again, and I do appreciate the cautionary notes.
He says he's looked everywhere, and no sign of a GFCI that affects
these two outlets (which aren't GFCI). Any thoughts on how to find it?


You need to know where GFCI protection was required at the time the house
was built. If it was late 80's they would be required for certain kitchen
outlets, but code prevented those circuits from being used in locations like
bathrooms. The other possible locations a another bathroom, outside, and
garages





He tried tracing the wires in the crawlspace, but only found them
disappearing down the wall near the breaker. Is there a general rule
on where the gfci would be placed in relation to the breaker
box/outlets?
OR, how to test to confirm that they ARE on a GFCI, a way to test for
that?
A few other questions, if I may:
-Does the fact of hot and "ground" reading 120v not indicate something
specific?
-When a GFCI is wired, do I understand it correctly that IT is
grounded, but that the loads coming off of it will be one hot and one
neutra, and no groundl?
-And if so, does his 120v reading on the black and "ground" (bare)
wire indicate that it's coming off the neutral? Or is there some other
way that the black/ground combination would read 120v, when on a GFCI?

Thanks again for your patience and help.