The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.

There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.

On Aug 21, 2:02 pm, albee wrote:
The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.

There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.

If screw connections, tighten all the screws.

As someone asked, are they the stabbed type? Does the outlet also
have screws that are not being used? If so move the wires from the
stabbed to the screws. Otherwise replace the outlet.

on 8/21/2007 4:02 PM albee said the following:
The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.


The wire to the outlet is loose, probably because the wires are "back
stabbed" into the outlet. Remove the back stabbed wire(s) and wrap them
around the side screws and tighten. Turn off the breaker to that outlet
before moving wires.
There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:09:45 -0700, Rich256
wrote:

On Aug 21, 2:02 pm, albee wrote:
The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.

There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.

If screw connections, tighten all the screws.

As someone asked, are they the stabbed type? Does the outlet also
have screws that are not being used? If so move the wires from the
stabbed to the screws. Otherwise replace the outlet.

Thanks so much for all the quick, great answers. Sorry for the
double-post; I happened to entitle this the same as someone else's old
post, and it got put in the middle of it on my reader way back several
months. Glad I found it now!

Kind of a "duh" the why, if I knew anything. Now I do! As for what
went wrong and the fix, indeed, they're going into holes in the back,
and there are screws on the side, so I'll be switching them to there.
Thanks a ton!

albee wrote:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:09:45 -0700, Rich256
wrote:

On Aug 21, 2:02 pm, albee wrote:
The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.

There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.
If screw connections, tighten all the screws.

As someone asked, are they the stabbed type? Does the outlet also
have screws that are not being used? If so move the wires from the
stabbed to the screws. Otherwise replace the outlet.

Thanks so much for all the quick, great answers. Sorry for the
double-post; I happened to entitle this the same as someone else's old
post, and it got put in the middle of it on my reader way back several
months. Glad I found it now!

Kind of a "duh" the why, if I knew anything. Now I do! As for what
went wrong and the fix, indeed, they're going into holes in the back,
and there are screws on the side, so I'll be switching them to there.
Thanks a ton!

For sake of completeness I'll say that just because there are wire holes
in the back the outlet is not automatically a "back stab" type. There is
an extremely high quality sort with holes in the back where tightening
the screws actually physically clamp the stripped wire ends rather than
depending on the backstab's feeble sprung contact. The easy way to tell
is whether there are little slots on the back of the receptacle where
one inserts a small screwdriver tip to release the wire. If you see them
then the receptacle is a backstab.

Personally, I would avoid re-using an old backstab type. They are
cheaply made and if the circuit has been compromised in the past there
may have been overheating that could have caused other unseen problems.
Even good receptacles are relatively inexpensive, so why not replace it?

Oh. And to provide the usual warnings: "power off before you mess with
it!" and "it can't hurt to make a drawing and label the conductors
before you mess with things so you can put it back together correctly".

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

"albee" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:09:45 -0700, Rich256
wrote:

On Aug 21, 2:02 pm, albee wrote:
The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.

There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.

If screw connections, tighten all the screws.

As someone asked, are they the stabbed type? Does the outlet also
have screws that are not being used? If so move the wires from the
stabbed to the screws. Otherwise replace the outlet.

Thanks so much for all the quick, great answers. Sorry for the
double-post; I happened to entitle this the same as someone else's old
post, and it got put in the middle of it on my reader way back several
months. Glad I found it now!

Kind of a "duh" the why, if I knew anything. Now I do! As for what
went wrong and the fix, indeed, they're going into holes in the back,
and there are screws on the side, so I'll be switching them to there.
Thanks a ton!
Speaking from experience- fighting with those usually-too-short wires is
enough of a pain, that it is crazy to not spend the two-three bucks and put
a new high-quality duplex outlet in there. 'Wiggling the plug' tells me the
springs in the slots are getting tired, and the outlet is about shot anyway.
If an outlet is over a few years old, and I have to take it apart, I just
replace it as cheap insurance.

IMHO, it falls in the category of Life Is Too Short To Mess With This Twice.

aem sends....

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:09:45 -0700, Rich256
wrote:

On Aug 21, 2:02 pm, albee wrote:
The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.

There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.

If screw connections, tighten all the screws.

As someone asked, are they the stabbed type? Does the outlet also
have screws that are not being used? If so move the wires from the
stabbed to the screws. Otherwise replace the outlet.

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.
Stumped... But problem solved.

In article , albee wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Stumped... But problem solved.

Stumped? Why? The symptoms are identical. It's almost certainly the same
problem -- and the outlets are telling you that it's time to at least re-wire,
if not replace, ALL of them. In the entire house. As soon as possible.

While you're at it, check all the switches too (chances are they were done the
same way).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Aug 21, 5:51 pm, albee wrote:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:09:45 -0700, Rich256
wrote:





On Aug 21, 2:02 pm, albee wrote:
The outlet in one of our bedrooms is such that when you wiggle a plug
in it the power to the plug goes on and off. Experienced that many
times, but what's odd, to me, is when the power is disrupted by
wiggling it, it also cuts out the power to the overhead light/fan,
which is operated by the switch at the door.

There are two switches by the door, one of which is controls the
switching of some/all of the outlets, but that switch is taped ON, so
not a factor in this. When I move the outlet, with it pulled partly
out of the box, the power goes on and off, so there's a loose
wire/connection in the outlet. Question is, based on what's happening,
can you tell if it's a specific wire? By pulling (with power off) I
can't tell that one is loose. Or should I be replacing the outlet?
Thanks.

If screw connections, tighten all the screws.

As someone asked, are they the stabbed type? Does the outlet also
have screws that are not being used? If so move the wires from the
stabbed to the screws. Otherwise replace the outlet.

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.
Stumped... But problem solved.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You don't happen to have aluminum wire? I doubt that they would an
electrician would ever have back stabbed aluminum wire. It loosens up
bad enough using the screws on AL/CU approved outlets. They don't
even have the back stab holes.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , albee wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off? Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house, if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!


Stumped... But problem solved.

Stumped? Why? The symptoms are identical. It's almost certainly the same
problem -- and the outlets are telling you that it's time to at least re-wire,
if not replace, ALL of them. In the entire house. As soon as possible.

While you're at it, check all the switches too (chances are they were done the
same way).

In article , albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , albee
wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off?

Most likely, there's been a problem there for a couple years. You just found
it.

Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house,

Like I said below... YES. You have a potential fire hazard.

if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!


Stumped... But problem solved.

Stumped? Why? The symptoms are identical. It's almost certainly the same
problem -- and the outlets are telling you that it's time to at least re-wire,
if not replace, ALL of them. In the entire house. As soon as possible.

While you're at it, check all the switches too (chances are they were done the
same way).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

on 8/22/2007 12:54 AM albee said the following:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , albee wrote:


OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.


Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off? Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house, if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!


If you notice how the outlet is connected to the box, you can understand
how plugging and unplugging a plug into the outlet can flex the outlet
in and out, which then can loosen, or break, a back stabbed wire.


Stumped... But problem solved.

Stumped? Why? The symptoms are identical. It's almost certainly the same
problem -- and the outlets are telling you that it's time to at least re-wire,
if not replace, ALL of them. In the entire house. As soon as possible.

While you're at it, check all the switches too (chances are they were done the
same way).



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:20:08 -0400, willshak
wrote:

on 8/22/2007 12:54 AM albee said the following:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , albee wrote:


OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.


Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off? Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house, if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!


If you notice how the outlet is connected to the box, you can understand
how plugging and unplugging a plug into the outlet can flex the outlet
in and out, which then can loosen, or break, a back stabbed wire.

Thanks. Yeah, I understand the initial one; what had me stumped was
the fact that the other outlet hadn't been used in years. And also,
that it had been working, apparently, prior to me dealing with this
other one, and yet upon dealing with the other one, apparently a
connection came loose in this one such that my testing it
re-established the connection. It was behind a dresser, so the only
thing I could think of was the power "surge" and drop from turning the
breaker on-and-off had affected it. Wasn't sure if that was possible
or not, so hence my stumped response.
Thanks again everyone for the help!


Stumped... But problem solved.

Stumped? Why? The symptoms are identical. It's almost certainly the same
problem -- and the outlets are telling you that it's time to at least re-wire,
if not replace, ALL of them. In the entire house. As soon as possible.

While you're at it, check all the switches too (chances are they were done the
same way).

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , albee
wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off?

Most likely, there's been a problem there for a couple years. You just found
it.

Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house,

Like I said below... YES. You have a potential fire hazard.

if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!


Stumped... But problem solved.

Stumped? Why? The symptoms are identical. It's almost certainly the same
problem -- and the outlets are telling you that it's time to at least re-wire,
if not replace, ALL of them. In the entire house. As soon as possible.

While you're at it, check all the switches too (chances are they were done the
same way).
Thanks for the heads-up on the switches, too. Boy, as bad as
backstabbed things appear to be it's hard to believe codes allow it.
My "stumped" was because the other outlet hadn't been used, and was
behind a dresser and not even touched during this ordeal with the
other one. Yet a conncection appeared to have gotten loose during this
one day period, without it being touched. So I was stumped, and
wondering if it could have happened as a result of the power being
turned on and off to it at the breaker. Tha'ts the only thing that's
been done to it from the time it was working and when I tested inside
it, triggering the power to come back on.
Anyway, thanks so much for the help and cautionary words. I will
address them all.

In article , albee wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up on the switches, too. Boy, as bad as
backstabbed things appear to be it's hard to believe codes allow it.

The biggest problems, actually, are with 14-gauge wire in backstab
connections. And the Code *doesn't* allow that any more, precisely because of
problems such as you are seeing. (The installation in your home probably did
meet Code at the time it was done.) 12-gauge wire is still permitted to be
backstabbed (but screws are much, much better).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I dont' usually jump in, but don't you have those numbers backwards? The
backstabbable outlets i've seen won't allow a 12 in the hole.


steve


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , albee
wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up on the switches, too. Boy, as bad as
backstabbed things appear to be it's hard to believe codes allow it.

The biggest problems, actually, are with 14-gauge wire in backstab
connections. And the Code *doesn't* allow that any more, precisely because
of
problems such as you are seeing. (The installation in your home probably
did
meet Code at the time it was done.) 12-gauge wire is still permitted to be
backstabbed (but screws are much, much better).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe

The times i mentioned pigtailing, several people would say what a waste of
time... etc. etc. I quit trying. I'll just do it right and let everyone
else double screw them.


steve


"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:32:28 -0500, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

The times i mentioned pigtailing, several people would say what a waste of
time... etc. etc. I quit trying. I'll just do it right and let everyone
else double screw them.


steve


"Joe" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe

Thanks for the additional feedback. I'll check into that technique.
Time for google! Or my Stanley Wiring book , though I've lent that to
my neighbor for now.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:46:57 -0500, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

I dont' usually jump in, but don't you have those numbers backwards? The
backstabbable outlets i've seen won't allow a 12 in the hole.


steve


The older ones would allow either. I haven't seen any newer ones that
would allow #12.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , albee
wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up on the switches, too. Boy, as bad as
backstabbed things appear to be it's hard to believe codes allow it.

The biggest problems, actually, are with 14-gauge wire in backstab
connections. And the Code *doesn't* allow that any more, precisely because
of
problems such as you are seeing. (The installation in your home probably
did
meet Code at the time it was done.) 12-gauge wire is still permitted to be
backstabbed (but screws are much, much better).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:27:59 -0700, Joe wrote:

On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe

When I saw a neighbor connect a receptacle last year, he used all 8
connections on that receptacle (4 screws and 4 backstab holes).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Aug 22, 10:32 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
The times i mentioned pigtailing, several people would say what a waste of
time... etc. etc. I quit trying. I'll just do it right and let everyone
else double screw them.

steve

"Joe" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is what I was taught and what always intuitively seemed right,
never let the device be the load run. A healthy plier twist and wire
nut will carry the load run and the device should simply tap that. I
think the problem is that Romex is so much thicker than regular wiring
with conduit that it quickly takes up all the room in the box, so use
of a deeper box would be needed to do pigtails. With regular wire in
conduit center stripping a 1 inch area then looping around the screw
with no cutting of the load run is easier, common, and very dependable
as it has no effect downstream even if a screw comes loose. You cant
center strip Romex because of the way the outer jacket must enter/exit
the box and be anchored, so it's cut, cut, cut in every box.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:03:00 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:27:59 -0700, Joe wrote:

On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe

When I saw a neighbor connect a receptacle last year, he used all 8
connections on that receptacle (4 screws and 4 backstab holes).
Though it doesn't really matter for me, I am curious, and always
willing to learn. How did he connect 8? With 4 wires?
Also, I take it from this and an earlier post that referenced romex
wiring, that romex is what I'm dealing with, and pigtailed is the same
as what Rick referred to as "working with plain wire in conduit"?

On Aug 23, 11:55 am, albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:03:00 -0500, Mark Lloyd





wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:27:59 -0700, Joe wrote:

On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe

When I saw a neighbor connect a receptacle last year, he used all 8
connections on that receptacle (4 screws and 4 backstab holes).

Though it doesn't really matter for me, I am curious, and always
willing to learn. How did he connect 8? With 4 wires?
Also, I take it from this and an earlier post that referenced romex
wiring, that romex is what I'm dealing with, and pigtailed is the same
as what Rick referred to as "working with plain wire in conduit"?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chicago and it's suburbs are about the only place where conduit is
still required for residential. Romex is a term like Xerox, a brand
name that became a generic name for something. Romex wire having its
own outer jacket so it can be used without roughing in a house with
steel conduit first. Pigtailing is a technique of twisting a smaller
wire onto the load run using a wire nut, that small pig tail then goes
to the device (outlet) leaving the load run with a more dependable
wire nutted connection no longer dependent upon the device connection
failing. Similar to a "T" where the load run is the top of the T and
the pigtail is the vertical part. Bottom line is that with pigtailing
every device in the run does not become a "carrier" for the entire
load run.

RickH wrote:

On Aug 22, 10:32 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

The times i mentioned pigtailing, several people would say what a waste of
time... etc. etc. I quit trying. I'll just do it right and let everyone
else double screw them.

....

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


This is what I was taught and what always intuitively seemed right,
never let the device be the load run. A healthy plier twist and wire
nut will carry the load run and the device should simply tap that. I
....

While "pigtailing" seems like a good idea, does anyone know
if and when the electrical code requires it? A reference to an actual
code section might be useful.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:15:52 -0700, RickH
wrote:

On Aug 23, 11:55 am, albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:03:00 -0500, Mark Lloyd





wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:27:59 -0700, Joe wrote:

On Aug 22, 5:17 pm, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:07:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
snip

Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them

Good wiring techniques call for series connected devices to be
pigtailed to the primary wires. Shame on all you experts for not
mentioning this. The reason is obvious: when a replacement or repair
is necessary it can be done in mere minutes with greater reliability
it is claimed. Through wiring (using both screws on the side of a
receptacle, for example), is the mark of an amateur. HTH

Joe

When I saw a neighbor connect a receptacle last year, he used all 8
connections on that receptacle (4 screws and 4 backstab holes).

Though it doesn't really matter for me, I am curious, and always
willing to learn. How did he connect 8? With 4 wires?
Also, I take it from this and an earlier post that referenced romex
wiring, that romex is what I'm dealing with, and pigtailed is the same
as what Rick referred to as "working with plain wire in conduit"?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chicago and it's suburbs are about the only place where conduit is
still required for residential. Romex is a term like Xerox, a brand
name that became a generic name for something. Romex wire having its
own outer jacket so it can be used without roughing in a house with
steel conduit first. Pigtailing is a technique of twisting a smaller
wire onto the load run using a wire nut, that small pig tail then goes
to the device (outlet) leaving the load run with a more dependable
wire nutted connection no longer dependent upon the device connection
failing. Similar to a "T" where the load run is the top of the T and
the pigtail is the vertical part. Bottom line is that with pigtailing
every device in the run does not become a "carrier" for the entire
load run.

Thanks, Rick. That's what I figured it meant, and sure does make more
sense. Oh well; play with what I was dealt...

On Aug 22, 12:54 am, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:





In article , albee wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off?

No, more likely something was mechanically weak internally in the
other outlet and the simple act of plugging in a tester broke it.
That means it's time to replace it.

Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house, if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!

Yup, replace 'em all. Just do it. You'll sleep better. at a
minimum, test every outlet in the house and replace all that have
problems, but I'd just do all of them while you're in the groove.

nate

(total hypocrite, since I still have to do about half of the ones in
my house.)

In article , "Steve Barker" wrote:
I dont' usually jump in, but don't you have those numbers backwards? The
backstabbable outlets i've seen won't allow a 12 in the hole.

Just checked one -- and yeah, you're right, I do. Mea culpa.

I never use those stupid things anyway...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:59:05 -0700, N8N wrote:

On Aug 22, 12:54 am, albee wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:





In article , albee wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off?

No, more likely something was mechanically weak internally in the
other outlet and the simple act of plugging in a tester broke it.
That means it's time to replace it.
Probably just beating a dead horse here, but just to clarify and try
to understand it, if there was something mechanically weak or wrong
prior to testing it, why was it not causing a problem the day before
when the other was acting up? This new, previously "unused" outlet was
upline from the one I was working on, but not causing a problem until
after I had worked on the downline one. Anyway, not important, but
just trying to see if there's something else to learn from this
situation.

Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house, if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!

Yup, replace 'em all. Just do it. You'll sleep better. at a
minimum, test every outlet in the house and replace all that have
problems, but I'd just do all of them while you're in the groove.

nate

(total hypocrite, since I still have to do about half of the ones in
my house.)
Thanks; I'm thinking of maybe doing one room per day. But also, doing
a whole house, even at only a couple dollars per outlet/switch, will
be over a hundred dollars. I'm guessing close to 50 combined? At that
volume, we'll have to see how "high quality" I want to go! Or would
simply re-wiring all of them be enough. It's not like we're
continually plugging and unplugging things into these outlets. Anyway,
thanks again.

albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:59:05 -0700, N8N wrote:


On Aug 22, 12:54 am, albee wrote:

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:






In article , albee wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off?

No, more likely something was mechanically weak internally in the
other outlet and the simple act of plugging in a tester broke it.
That means it's time to replace it.

Probably just beating a dead horse here, but just to clarify and try
to understand it, if there was something mechanically weak or wrong
prior to testing it, why was it not causing a problem the day before
when the other was acting up? This new, previously "unused" outlet was
upline from the one I was working on, but not causing a problem until
after I had worked on the downline one. Anyway, not important, but
just trying to see if there's something else to learn from this
situation.

Guess I'll go in and replace it/both with new
outlets, but then shouldn't I be doing that throughout the house, if
these are all original, and all backstabbed, and two in one room have
gotten loose at the same time? Jeez, sounds like a fun week ahead!
Thanks again for all the help!

Yup, replace 'em all. Just do it. You'll sleep better. at a
minimum, test every outlet in the house and replace all that have
problems, but I'd just do all of them while you're in the groove.

nate

(total hypocrite, since I still have to do about half of the ones in
my house.)

Thanks; I'm thinking of maybe doing one room per day. But also, doing
a whole house, even at only a couple dollars per outlet/switch, will
be over a hundred dollars. I'm guessing close to 50 combined? At that
volume, we'll have to see how "high quality" I want to go! Or would
simply re-wiring all of them be enough. It's not like we're
continually plugging and unplugging things into these outlets. Anyway,
thanks again.

See if you have a real electrical supply house that will sell you receps
and switches in quantity. The one around here is Dominion, but I think
they only have locations in Virginia. If you go with the cheapies, even
a "contractor pack" of 10 at the Home Despot will only run you $10-15.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

albee wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:59:05 -0700, N8N wrote:


On Aug 22, 12:54 am, albee wrote:

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:29:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:






In article , albee wrote:

OMG. Simple enough. Indeed, they were backstabbed, and after getting
done with re-wiring them (BTW: coincidence or not, turns out the best
thing to use to disengage those suckers is the prong of a cord! Tried
about 10 things before I came up with that). Anyway, got done with
it... and nothing. Nothing. So, I decide to test other outlets in the
room, stick my multimeter in another one, and as soon as I do, all
lights and power come on throughout the room?! Including to the one I
just re-wired. Yet, this was an outlet that was behind a dresser and
hadn't been used in eons. What happened? I decided not to take it
apart to check it, since we're not using it and it's working now.

Bad idea.

You KNOW there's a problem there. You know, too, that the problem is a loose
connection. What you may not know is that loose connections can start fires.

Fix it.

BEFORE you go to sleep tonight.

Thanks for all the replies (and Rich, no, they're not aluminum). Can
anyone explain what happened after I re-wired the one outlet, and
suddenly I wasn't getting any power to it, and then tested the other
outlet, that hadn't been touched in years, and all of a sudden it
appears to have a loose wire? Did the wire come loose from turning the
breaker on and off?

No, more likely something was mechanically weak internally in the
other outlet and the simple act of plugging in a tester broke it.
That means it's time to replace it.

Probably just beating a dead horse here, but just to clarify and try
to understand it, if there was something mechanically weak or wrong
prior to testing it, why was it not causing a problem the day before
when the other was acting up? This new, previously "unused" outlet was
upline from the one I was working on, but not causing a problem until
after I had worked on the downline one. Anyway, not important, but
just trying to see if there's something else to learn from this
situation.

I would guess that the plastic that holds the metal bits in place got
brittle from age and possibly heat and the simple act of plugging in a
little tester or sticking your Fluke's probe in there caused it to crack
and no longer hold the metal bits firmly in place. But that is just a
guess. I have however removed plenty of receps that have the thin bit
below the ground hole busted out so it seems like a reasonable guess.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:55:00 -0400, albee wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:03:00 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

[snip]

When I saw a neighbor connect a receptacle last year, he used all 8
connections on that receptacle (4 screws and 4 backstab holes).

Though it doesn't really matter for me, I am curious, and always
willing to learn. How did he connect 8? With 4 wires?

[snip]

Originally, this box just held a switch for the attic light. Since
this box is located almost directly above the panel, there were 2
pieces of Romex present.

Then, a previous owner has an outside receptacle added. This was wired
to this switch box.

Finally, the new neighbor added some wiring in the room below (a
garage converted to a room), and ran this to that box. He changed the
box to a 2-gang one and put in a receptacle there, and used it to join
all those wires (instead of going out and looking for a couple of big
wire nuts).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."