Anyhow, my question is whether I will also have to buy a new rooftop
antenna.

Depends on how good your signal is.
I took a standard 15 yr old antenna off a mobile home they were moving, put
it up on our Park Model and connected to our new LCD TV in Tucson AZ. I get
14 local HD channels and the picture is great except when there are local
storms.
Will I be able to use the same rotor ?

No reason why not

NTSC and ATSC are meaningless to me and I would bet to most other TV
shoppers also.

My HDTV has both types of tuners. I havent bothered to look up which does
what.
Picture is great even off local "antenna" (and my DISH,with which I've
declined Local Service, hence the antenna)

Puddin' Man wrote:


'Scuse me, but how in the hull do *you* know what Comcast, TW,
Charter, etc are going to do in the coming years? Some doubt they
know they-own-selves.

Comcast already announced that the FCC is requiring them to discontinue
all analog channels (not true, the FCC is only requiring broadcasters to
do that) and will require everyone to get a digital box. They have
already done this in a few markets (with one a really big one).



Several years ago I could get premium (HBO, etc) channels on my NTSC
tuners. Not no' mo': gotta have a (Charter) Digital-Garbage Box (and
pay rent on it).

Last I looked, there were incentives for cable vendors to further
convert to "digital". Not directly connected to the 2009 ATSC
changeover.

...

Puddin'

"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller

George wrote in news:QPSdnS67ip4ld1TbnZ2dnUVZ_h-
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Smitty Two wrote in
news

That particular phenomenon has nothing to do with digital *or* hdtv.
That's called "aspect ratio" and it's something that the television
user can (and should) adjust to match the source material. DAGS.


Aspect ratio should be automatic.

DTVs seem to have a feature which you can toggle on to fill the whole
screen. If you happen to be watching 4:5 programming it stretches
everything out. It drives me nuts but when I mentioned it out to a few
people they couldn't get it even when I pointed out that round things
shouldn't look ovals and everyone shouldn't look like a sumo wrestler.

Ah,you force the wrong aspect ratio.
Some people don't like the letterboxing,I guess...

it's 4:3 and 16:9 ratios,BTW

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Doug wrote in
:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:59:33 -0000, wrote:

On Aug 20, 4:55 pm, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:
wrote:

SNIP HAPPENS



You don't need an HDTV. All you need is an ATSC digital tuner
which will deliver a signal compatible with your existing TV. The
govt has approved a plan to give consumers two $40 coupons that
can be used toward the purchase of two converter boxes. These
tuners are already available for under $100, and will likely be
$50-75 by the time you need them.

Interesting. First I have heard of the coupon thing. Sure hope it
happens.
There are 8 NTSC TVs in this house, as well as 3 NTSC VCRs. All
are on a Comcast "Basic" cale, not HD cable.

I am *not* looking forward to what this "improvement" is going to
cost me.

If you have cable, the improvement will cost you zippo. The cable box
already supplies NTSC, S Video, Component, whatever you're using.
That isn't going to change. The only folks impacted are those that
receive NTSC over the air.

The coupon thing is a done deal. You can google or check the FCC.

WHAT cable box?

With basic cable, there is no cable box. The analog NTSC signal is fed
right into the TV's tuner.

Doug


many basic cable systems still use a cable box,for signal security.
They play games with channel allocations and shifting channel frequencies
slightly.Some cable systems use a digital system right up to your wall,and
you need a box to convert to analog NTSC.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"aemeijers" wrote in
:


"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:
On Aug 20, 4:55 pm, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

(snip)
are on a Comcast "Basic" cale, not HD cable.

I am *not* looking forward to what this "improvement" is going to
cost me.


If you have cable, the improvement will cost you zippo. The cable
box already supplies NTSC, S Video, Component, whatever you're
using. That isn't going to change. The only folks impacted are
those that receive NTSC over the air.

I did not know that.

Thanks for the good news.

Uh, not entirely true- in some areas served by the biggies, and
especially tiny 'house' cable systems like some apartments use, if you
only have basic cable, no set-top box is involved. 1 cable, wall jack
to 'cable ready' TV. (the apartments I lived in until recently were
like that, and the basic cable my sister had at her house were like
that.) Or are they going to start converting the signal at the head
end before they send it down the wire?

aem sends....




chances are they will sell their system to the local cable company,who will
connect to their system,and then you'll need their box,and pay their rates.
That's what happened at my apt.complex a few years ago,sold to
Brighthouse.(Time-Warner Cable)

Now you can also get broadband internet service,and Internet phone,I
believe.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

dicko wrote in
:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:18:40 -0500, wrote:

I heard that in another year or so we will all be forced to either buy
a HDTV or buy a converter. Having all standard tv sets, and I am
neither able to afford a HDTV, nor am I impressed by their picture, I
am not at all happy about this. I live in the country where the only
means to get tv channels is to either spend half my paycheck on
satellite, or use an antenna on the roof. I chose the antenna, and
most of the time I get fairly good reception on a few local channels.

I suppose I will have no choice but to buy a convertor, but I surely
will make a big fuss about it with whatever governmental agency is
behind this conspiracy to promote the sales of HDTVs and the crappy
broken up and spotty pictures they produce. I sure hope that the
convertor will produce a better picture on a standard tv than that on
the actual hdtvs.

Anyhow, my question is whether I will also have to buy a new rooftop
antenna. My present antenna broke during a windstorm and I
temporarily fixed it with some tubing and ducttape. I was planning to
buy a new antenna when a friend told me that he thinks I will need a
HDTV antenna too, but was not sure if an old antenna would also work.
Does anyone know? Will I be able to use the same rotor or does that
need to be changed too?

If anyone knows what government agency to file a complaint about this
HDTV conspiracy, please let me know. Tv channels have been the same
since the beginning of television, and now we got these republican
morons forcing us to change just so the HDTV companies can rob people
charging them ten or more times the price of a regular tv and giving
them a lousy picture. Just the same story as always these days, pay
more, and get less..... I wonder how much money the republicans are
getting to shove this HDTV **** on us?

James

Nobody has related any real life experiences with watching DTV on a
regularTV so I will.

I live in a rural area where analog TV reception can at best be
classified as awful. Scratchy, staticy, ghosty, fluttery, you name it,
it was in the picture. But I put up with it. Until a few years ago
when I had had enough and I bought a converter box for my TV. Man!
let me tell you. It was like moving the studio into your living room.
It was a crystal clear perfect picture the likes of which I had never
seen before. Sure it had some problems with pixelation and an
occasion freeze, but it was a friggin perfect picture!

So stop complaining about your crappy picture and go out and buy a
converter box. Sure they'll be cheaper in a year when the government
starts handing out the rebates, but then you'll have missed out on
doing the one thing that can improve your picture the most for those
months you've waited.

Go to www.antennaweb.org and see if it says you can pick up any DTV
stations and then just go for it.

-dickm


my objection is that instead of letting the MARKET decide,government forced
the conversion,and thus obsoleted my 2 TVs and VCR,"taking" my property
without compensation.
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only one
coupon per household.

When TracFone's carriers dropped the old analog cellphone service,TracFone
sent me a free GSM phone to replace the analog phone.

I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Aug 21, 8:05 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
Doug wrote :





On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:59:33 -0000, wrote:

On Aug 20, 4:55 pm, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:
wrote:

SNIP HAPPENS

You don't need an HDTV. All you need is an ATSC digital tuner
which will deliver a signal compatible with your existing TV. The
govt has approved a plan to give consumers two $40 coupons that
can be used toward the purchase of two converter boxes. These
tuners are already available for under $100, and will likely be
$50-75 by the time you need them.

Interesting. First I have heard of the coupon thing. Sure hope it
happens.
There are 8 NTSC TVs in this house, as well as 3 NTSC VCRs. All
are on a Comcast "Basic" cale, not HD cable.

I am *not* looking forward to what this "improvement" is going to
cost me.

If you have cable, the improvement will cost you zippo. The cable box
already supplies NTSC, S Video, Component, whatever you're using.
That isn't going to change. The only folks impacted are those that
receive NTSC over the air.

The coupon thing is a done deal. You can google or check the FCC.

WHAT cable box?

With basic cable, there is no cable box. The analog NTSC signal is fed
right into the TV's tuner.

Doug

many basic cable systems still use a cable box,for signal security.
They play games with channel allocations and shifting channel frequencies
slightly.Some cable systems use a digital system right up to your wall,and
you need a box to convert to analog NTSC.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net- Hide quoted text -


And more cable systems are being upgraded over time to be digital
right to the wall because it lets them cram more channels into the
same space.

In the case of systems that provide some basic service without a box,
here's what should happen with the end of NTSC broadcasting. The
cable company almost certainly will take a std def source for a given
channel, turn it into an NTSC compatible signal at the head end and
put it out over the cable. That is straightforward, not expensive or
hard to do, and causes minimal disruption to their cusotmer base.

And I don't see much choice. In such a system, what would the other
alternatives be? Provide the signal in ATSC and expect customers to
buy a tuner/converter box? That would be possible for those without
a cable box, but it won't work for those that have a cable box.
That's because there is nowhere to put the tuner/converter, ie you
can't put it before the cable box, you can't put it between the cable
box and the TV.


Now, in deference to Pa Pa Peng, who I apologize for jumping on a bit,
I can't say for sure what cable companies will do. But I seriously
doubt that 18 months from now, there is going to be some big trouble
ahead for cable customers that want to continue to use their existing
sets and cable. I base this on the following:

1- Considerable thought has been given by the FCC and Congress to
minimizing the transition impact. They are giving two $40 coupons to
over the air homes to help pay for converters. And it makes sense,
because Congress and the Pres can do a lot of stupid things and no one
cares. But if your TV stops working, all hell will break loose. All
this discussion has been focused on OTA, which today is a small
percentage of the total, maybe 15%. It would be pretty stupid for
everyone to ignore some impending big problem in cable land, while
worrying about OTA.

2- I've seen lots of discussion in various forums over the last few
years about the turn off of NTSC, and no one has said anything about
there being anything special that needs to be done that is gonna
impact consumers. Everyone instead says it only affects folks
receiving OTA

3- Technically, it's a simple and easy thing for the cable company to
continue to provide an NTSC signal from the head end. Or to continue
to provide it as a digital signal out of the cable box.

Jim Yanik wrote:
George wrote in news:QPSdnS67ip4ld1TbnZ2dnUVZ_h-
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Smitty Two wrote in
news

That particular phenomenon has nothing to do with digital *or* hdtv.
That's called "aspect ratio" and it's something that the television
user can (and should) adjust to match the source material. DAGS.

Aspect ratio should be automatic.

DTVs seem to have a feature which you can toggle on to fill the whole
screen. If you happen to be watching 4:5 programming it stretches
everything out. It drives me nuts but when I mentioned it out to a few
people they couldn't get it even when I pointed out that round things
shouldn't look ovals and everyone shouldn't look like a sumo wrestler.

Ah,you force the wrong aspect ratio.
Some people don't like the letterboxing,I guess...

In the cases I mentioned it wasn't letterboxing. They stretched it to
fill in the sides,then everything was squashed down.


it's 4:3 and 16:9 ratios,BTW

"Tired fingers" when I wrote that but I was close...

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:16:46 -0000, wrote:

On Aug 20, 5:19 pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:59:33 -0000, wrote:

...

If you have cable, the improvement will cost you zippo. The cable box
already supplies NTSC, S Video, Component, whatever you're using.
That isn't going to change.

'Scuse me, but how in the hull do *you* know what Comcast, TW,
Charter, etc are going to do in the coming years? Some doubt they
know they-own-selves.

Look, first, it's not years away, ATSC is already up and running.
HDTV programming is available right now through OTA, cable, and Sat.
It coexists with std def right now. You can watch much of prime time
in HD or std right now via cable. All those cable companies now
deliver a signal that works with your NTSC TV. And the signal from
most cable companies is already digital to the set top box, regardless
of whether the output is NTSC or HD. In Feb 2009, the only thing
that happens is NTSC OTA gets turned off.

Sounds like a sales pitch to me. Kinda like doin' the Funky Chicken
to dance around the stated Q ("how in the hull do *you* know ...")
which you cannot answer.

If you don't believe me, call your cable company and ask or do a bit
of research on the web.

Sho'ly, sho'ly. The cable co. is famous for taking great pains
to precisely define the technologies that they are cramming down
their customer's throats. :-)

And, no, I'll not be "researching" any sales pitches in the web.


Several years ago I could get premium (HBO, etc) channels on my NTSC
tuners. Not no' mo': gotta have a (Charter) Digital-Garbage Box (and
pay rent on it).

I assure you that you can get it right now.

Premium cable channels with only an NTSC tuner (no set-top box)?

Just call up and pay for
it instead of stealing it.

"Steal Yo Mama! And Granma too!!" :-)

I pay for what I get and I get what I pay for. And I'm not buying
the super-hyped garbage that you are selling.

Last I looked, there were incentives for cable vendors to further
convert to "digital". Not directly connected to the 2009 ATSC
changeover.

That's right, the incentives are to cram more channels down that
pipe. It's been going on, it works, so why should we expect it's
gonna disappear, just because broadcasters shutdown the NTSC
transmitters?

He thinks he's "The Oracle On The Mound" and can foresee all
eventualities. Doesn't even need to address specific issues
(per the above).

I think he's a troll or a spammer or both.

P

"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller

On Aug 21, 2:42 pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:16:46 -0000, wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:19 pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:59:33 -0000, wrote:

...





If you have cable, the improvement will cost you zippo. The cable box
already supplies NTSC, S Video, Component, whatever you're using.
That isn't going to change.

'Scuse me, but how in the hull do *you* know what Comcast, TW,
Charter, etc are going to do in the coming years? Some doubt they
know they-own-selves.

Look, first, it's not years away, ATSC is already up and running.
HDTV programming is available right now through OTA, cable, and Sat.
It coexists with std def right now. You can watch much of prime time
in HD or std right now via cable. All those cable companies now
deliver a signal that works with your NTSC TV. And the signal from
most cable companies is already digital to the set top box, regardless
of whether the output is NTSC or HD. In Feb 2009, the only thing
that happens is NTSC OTA gets turned off.

Sounds like a sales pitch to me. Kinda like doin' the Funky Chicken
to dance around the stated Q ("how in the hull do *you* know ...")
which you cannot answer.


Not a sales pitch. I don't care what you choose to do or watch. Just
pointing out that despite your efforts to spread FUD, there isn't some
big unknown gotcha out there for cable customers.


If you don't believe me, call your cable company and ask or do a bit
of research on the web.

Sho'ly, sho'ly. The cable co. is famous for taking great pains
to precisely define the technologies that they are cramming down
their customer's throats. :-)





And, no, I'll not be "researching" any sales pitches in the web.


Yeah, better to stay ignorant, and cast FUD around instead of making a
simple phone call or looking on the web for info pertaining to your
own cable company.







Several years ago I could get premium (HBO, etc) channels on my NTSC
tuners. Not no' mo': gotta have a (Charter) Digital-Garbage Box (and
pay rent on it).

I assure you that you can get it right now.

Premium cable channels with only an NTSC tuner (no set-top box)?

Just call up and pay for
it instead of stealing it.

"Steal Yo Mama! And Granma too!!" :-)

I pay for what I get and I get what I pay for. And I'm not buying
the super-hyped garbage that you are selling.


Again, not selling anything here.


Last I looked, there were incentives for cable vendors to further
convert to "digital". Not directly connected to the 2009 ATSC
changeover.

That's right, the incentives are to cram more channels down that
pipe. It's been going on, it works, so why should we expect it's
gonna disappear, just because broadcasters shutdown the NTSC
transmitters?

He thinks he's "The Oracle On The Mound" and can foresee all
eventualities. Doesn't even need to address specific issues
(per the above).

More FUD about "eventualites". Like the cable companies can't figure
out how the turnoff of NTSC broadcasting is going to impact them and
how they will accomodate it? And what specific issue would that be
that I haven't adressed?



I think he's a troll or a spammer or both.

P

"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

George wrote in news:bNidnUTU-
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
George wrote in news:QPSdnS67ip4ld1TbnZ2dnUVZ_h-
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Smitty Two wrote in
news

That particular phenomenon has nothing to do with digital *or* hdtv.
That's called "aspect ratio" and it's something that the television
user can (and should) adjust to match the source material. DAGS.

Aspect ratio should be automatic.

DTVs seem to have a feature which you can toggle on to fill the whole
screen. If you happen to be watching 4:5 programming it stretches
everything out. It drives me nuts but when I mentioned it out to a few
people they couldn't get it even when I pointed out that round things
shouldn't look ovals and everyone shouldn't look like a sumo wrestler.

Ah,you force the wrong aspect ratio.
Some people don't like the letterboxing,I guess...

In the cases I mentioned it wasn't letterboxing. They stretched it to
fill in the sides,then everything was squashed down.


it's 4:3 and 16:9 ratios,BTW

"Tired fingers" when I wrote that but I was close...



Normally,when displaying 16:9 video on a 4:3 display,there are dark bands
at the top and bottom of the screen.
for 4:3 video on a 16:9 display,you get the dark bands on the sides.
that's letterboxing.

So,if you stretch the horizontal to fill the screen,the image looks
squished.that's simple physics. You used to be able to see that same effect
at movie theaters when the projectionist didn't change lenses to fit the
film they were showing.

You also get the same thing when resizing pictures to fit your PC
display,depending on the original format of the pic. Some viewers like
Irfan View allow you to retain aspect ratio or to allow the stretch/squish
of the pic.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Aug 20, 4:52 pm, "Freckles" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On Aug 20, 1:45 pm, "Freckles" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

On Aug 20, 4:28 am, "Freckles" wrote:
wrote in message

. ..

I heard that in another year or so we will all be forced to either
buy
a HDTV or buy a converter. Having all standard tv sets, and I am
neither able to afford a HDTV, nor am I impressed by their picture,
I
am not at all happy about this. I live in the country where the
only
means to get tv channels is to either spend half my paycheck on
satellite, or use an antenna on the roof. I chose the antenna, and
most of the time I get fairly good reception on a few local
channels.

I suppose I will have no choice but to buy a convertor, but I surely
will make a big fuss about it with whatever governmental agency is
behind this conspiracy to promote the sales of HDTVs and the crappy
broken up and spotty pictures they produce. I sure hope that the
convertor will produce a better picture on a standard tv than that
on
the actual hdtvs.

Anyhow, my question is whether I will also have to buy a new rooftop
antenna. My present antenna broke during a windstorm and I
temporarily fixed it with some tubing and ducttape. I was planning
to
buy a new antenna when a friend told me that he thinks I will need a
HDTV antenna too, but was not sure if an old antenna would also
work.
Does anyone know? Will I be able to use the same rotor or does that
need to be changed too?

If anyone knows what government agency to file a complaint about
this
HDTV conspiracy, please let me know. Tv channels have been the same
since the beginning of television, and now we got these republican
morons forcing us to change just so the HDTV companies can rob
people
charging them ten or more times the price of a regular tv and giving
them a lousy picture. Just the same story as always these days, pay
more, and get less..... I wonder how much money the republicans are
getting to shove this HDTV **** on us?

James

Unless the program you are viewing on a HDTV is broadcast in HD, your
picture will not be very good. If fact it probably wont be as good as
the
ones you receive on a regular TV set.

And on what basis are you making this claim that a std def picture on
ATSC isn't going to look as good as it would on NTSC? The picture
should be better. No more ghosting, no more snow. Now, I'm sure
there are pathological cases, where the ATSC transmitter is located
somewhere different from the NTSC one, blocked, greater distance,
etc. But that is the exception, not typical.

From personal experience and the experiences of many family members and
friends.

Without clarification of what you were watching and on what eqpt, the
above statement is just about meaningless. For example,you could
take an ATSC signal that is being broadcast at low resolution, ie
programming that is not offered in HD and watch it on a 65" HDTV. Of
course that will look like crap, because you're blowing up a low
resolution signal. You could take the same programming in NTSC, put
it on the same big set and it will look like crap too. Put the same
thing on a small TV and it will look as good as NTSC. But some people
seeing it on the big TV attribute the problem to ATSC, or HDTV.

What's so difficult to understand? When a program is broadcast in HD and
received on a HDTV the picture is fantastic, regardless of the TV size. If
the program is not HD and it is received on a HDTV, the picture quality is
not very good regardless of the screen size.

So, you think a std def source looks as good on a 65" HD Display as it
does on a 27" HD Display? Many people have bought big HD sets and
been shocked at how bad a std def cable source looks that looked fine
on their old 27" TV.




I spent many hours in a number of different stores looking at and finding
out about the different HDTVs because I'm in the market to buy one. NTSC and
ATSC are meaningless to me and I would bet to most other TV shoppers also.

To use your terminology, what's so difficult to understand? And it
would be a good idea to understand what the difference is. Would be
very bad to bring home a a set without an ATSC tuner if you expect to
use an antenna. Until recently, that was a very real problem.




I've been looking into HDTV's for a couple of years now, and the quality of
HDTVs keep going up and the prices keep going down. By February of 2009,
quality will most likely be even better and prices even lower.





However, if it is a HD program the
picture will be extremely clear and beautiful when viewed on A HDTV,
if
not
something is very wrong.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
dicko wrote :





On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:18:40 -0500, wrote:

I heard that in another year or so we will all be forced to either buy
a HDTV or buy a converter. Having all standard tv sets, and I am
neither able to afford a HDTV, nor am I impressed by their picture, I
am not at all happy about this. I live in the country where the only
means to get tv channels is to either spend half my paycheck on
satellite, or use an antenna on the roof. I chose the antenna, and
most of the time I get fairly good reception on a few local channels.

I suppose I will have no choice but to buy a convertor, but I surely
will make a big fuss about it with whatever governmental agency is
behind this conspiracy to promote the sales of HDTVs and the crappy
broken up and spotty pictures they produce. I sure hope that the
convertor will produce a better picture on a standard tv than that on
the actual hdtvs.

Anyhow, my question is whether I will also have to buy a new rooftop
antenna. My present antenna broke during a windstorm and I
temporarily fixed it with some tubing and ducttape. I was planning to
buy a new antenna when a friend told me that he thinks I will need a
HDTV antenna too, but was not sure if an old antenna would also work.
Does anyone know? Will I be able to use the same rotor or does that
need to be changed too?

If anyone knows what government agency to file a complaint about this
HDTV conspiracy, please let me know. Tv channels have been the same
since the beginning of television, and now we got these republican
morons forcing us to change just so the HDTV companies can rob people
charging them ten or more times the price of a regular tv and giving
them a lousy picture. Just the same story as always these days, pay
more, and get less..... I wonder how much money the republicans are
getting to shove this HDTV **** on us?

James

Nobody has related any real life experiences with watching DTV on a
regularTV so I will.

I live in a rural area where analog TV reception can at best be
classified as awful. Scratchy, staticy, ghosty, fluttery, you name it,
it was in the picture. But I put up with it. Until a few years ago
when I had had enough and I bought a converter box for my TV. Man!
let me tell you. It was like moving the studio into your living room.
It was a crystal clear perfect picture the likes of which I had never
seen before. Sure it had some problems with pixelation and an
occasion freeze, but it was a friggin perfect picture!

So stop complaining about your crappy picture and go out and buy a
converter box. Sure they'll be cheaper in a year when the government
starts handing out the rebates, but then you'll have missed out on
doing the one thing that can improve your picture the most for those
months you've waited.

Go towww.antennaweb.organd see if it says you can pick up any DTV
stations and then just go for it.

-dickm

my objection is that instead of letting the MARKET decide,government forced
the conversion,and thus obsoleted my 2 TVs and VCR,"taking" my property
without compensation.
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only one
coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.





When TracFone's carriers dropped the old analog cellphone service,TracFone
sent me a free GSM phone to replace the analog phone.

I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote in
oups.com:

On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
dicko wrote
:





On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:18:40 -0500, wrote:

I heard that in another year or so we will all be forced to either
buy a HDTV or buy a converter. Having all standard tv sets, and I
am neither able to afford a HDTV, nor am I impressed by their
picture, I am not at all happy about this. I live in the country
where the only means to get tv channels is to either spend half my
paycheck on satellite, or use an antenna on the roof. I chose the
antenna, and most of the time I get fairly good reception on a few
local channels.

I suppose I will have no choice but to buy a convertor, but I
surely will make a big fuss about it with whatever governmental
agency is behind this conspiracy to promote the sales of HDTVs and
the crappy broken up and spotty pictures they produce. I sure hope
that the convertor will produce a better picture on a standard tv
than that on the actual hdtvs.

Anyhow, my question is whether I will also have to buy a new
rooftop antenna. My present antenna broke during a windstorm and I
temporarily fixed it with some tubing and ducttape. I was planning
to buy a new antenna when a friend told me that he thinks I will
need a HDTV antenna too, but was not sure if an old antenna would
also work. Does anyone know? Will I be able to use the same rotor
or does that need to be changed too?

If anyone knows what government agency to file a complaint about
this HDTV conspiracy, please let me know. Tv channels have been
the same since the beginning of television, and now we got these
republican morons forcing us to change just so the HDTV companies
can rob people charging them ten or more times the price of a
regular tv and giving them a lousy picture. Just the same story as
always these days, pay more, and get less..... I wonder how much
money the republicans are getting to shove this HDTV **** on us?

James

Nobody has related any real life experiences with watching DTV on a
regularTV so I will.

I live in a rural area where analog TV reception can at best be
classified as awful. Scratchy, staticy, ghosty, fluttery, you name
it, it was in the picture. But I put up with it. Until a few years
ago when I had had enough and I bought a converter box for my TV.
Man! let me tell you. It was like moving the studio into your
living room. It was a crystal clear perfect picture the likes of
which I had never seen before. Sure it had some problems with
pixelation and an occasion freeze, but it was a friggin perfect
picture!

So stop complaining about your crappy picture and go out and buy a
converter box. Sure they'll be cheaper in a year when the
government starts handing out the rebates, but then you'll have
missed out on doing the one thing that can improve your picture the
most for those months you've waited.

Go towww.antennaweb.organd see if it says you can pick up any DTV
stations and then just go for it.

-dickm

my objection is that instead of letting the MARKET decide,government
forced the conversion,and thus obsoleted my 2 TVs and VCR,"taking" my
property without compensation.
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only
one coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.

Which doesn't do a lot of good for my VCR.


When TracFone's carriers dropped the old analog cellphone
service,TracFone sent me a free GSM phone to replace the analog
phone.

I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -




and those converters will cost MORE than the coupon's worth,thus STILL
"taking" from me.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

wrote in
oups.com:

On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:

They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only
one coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.



http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...subcat=&p rod
Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=

$200 for one converter.

I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

--
Jim Yanik




--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:18:40 -0500, wrote:

I heard that in another year or so we will all be forced to either buy
a HDTV or buy a converter. Having all standard tv sets, and I am
neither able to afford a HDTV, nor am I impressed by their picture, I
am not at all happy about this. I live in the country where the only
means to get tv channels is to either spend half my paycheck on
satellite, or use an antenna on the roof. I chose the antenna, and
most of the time I get fairly good reception on a few local channels.

You can get satellite TV installed for free in four rooms with
individual boxes IIRC. Your monthly service will vary, but I'm pretty
sure you can get a basic 200 channel deal with no premium channels for
around $30/month. If you're only earning $60/month, you will have
trouble mounting a dish to a cardboard box or shopping cart. You must
have a slick WiFi setup, hanging out at Starbucks. But seriously...
its not THAT expensive.

I suppose I will have no choice but to buy a convertor, but I surely
will make a big fuss about it with whatever governmental agency is
behind this conspiracy to promote the sales of HDTVs and the crappy
broken up and spotty pictures they produce. I sure hope that the
convertor will produce a better picture on a standard tv than that on
the actual hdtvs.

I have a HDTV and the picture is _very_ impressive, but you can still
use your existing TV with either a cable box converter or a satellite
receiver, and the unit will convert the new digital TV signal into a
less sharp analog signal.

Anyhow, my question is whether I will also have to buy a new rooftop
antenna. My present antenna broke during a windstorm and I
temporarily fixed it with some tubing and ducttape. I was planning to
buy a new antenna when a friend told me that he thinks I will need a
HDTV antenna too, but was not sure if an old antenna would also work.
Does anyone know? Will I be able to use the same rotor or does that
need to be changed too?

Assuming you buy a digital-capable TV (not a HD TV), you should be
able to buy an antenna specifically designed to pick up the new
signals. IF you buy a HDTV, only then will you be faced with the
dilemma of whether to try and capture OTA HD signals with a
HD-designed antenna, or if you spring for the monthly satellite or
cable service. Comcast basic cable currently costs about $9.00/month.
You'd have to assume when there is no analog signal to broadcast and
all they can send is digital and digital HD... pricing might go up a
skoosh, but if they try to rip everyone off... yeah, congress will get
involved because free TV is like air and votes... both are needed.

If anyone knows what government agency to file a complaint about this
HDTV conspiracy, please let me know. Tv channels have been the same
since the beginning of television, and now we got these republican
morons forcing us to change just so the HDTV companies can rob people
charging them ten or more times the price of a regular tv and giving
them a lousy picture. Just the same story as always these days, pay
more, and get less..... I wonder how much money the republicans are
getting to shove this HDTV **** on us?

I think you should write to both your congressmen and to the Director
of the FCC, but its a done deal and has been delayed for about 5 years
already.
James

James... I assume this post was a joke but I figured I'd go along with
it.

On Aug 22, 2:23 am, wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:





dicko wrote :

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:18:40 -0500, wrote:

I heard that in another year or so we will all be forced to either buy
a HDTV or buy a converter. Having all standard tv sets, and I am
neither able to afford a HDTV, nor am I impressed by their picture, I
am not at all happy about this. I live in the country where the only
means to get tv channels is to either spend half my paycheck on
satellite, or use an antenna on the roof. I chose the antenna, and
most of the time I get fairly good reception on a few local channels.

I suppose I will have no choice but to buy a convertor, but I surely
will make a big fuss about it with whatever governmental agency is
behind this conspiracy to promote the sales of HDTVs and the crappy
broken up and spotty pictures they produce. I sure hope that the
convertor will produce a better picture on a standard tv than that on
the actual hdtvs.

Anyhow, my question is whether I will also have to buy a new rooftop
antenna. My present antenna broke during a windstorm and I
temporarily fixed it with some tubing and ducttape. I was planning to
buy a new antenna when a friend told me that he thinks I will need a
HDTV antenna too, but was not sure if an old antenna would also work.
Does anyone know? Will I be able to use the same rotor or does that
need to be changed too?

If anyone knows what government agency to file a complaint about this
HDTV conspiracy, please let me know. Tv channels have been the same
since the beginning of television, and now we got these republican
morons forcing us to change just so the HDTV companies can rob people
charging them ten or more times the price of a regular tv and giving
them a lousy picture. Just the same story as always these days, pay
more, and get less..... I wonder how much money the republicans are
getting to shove this HDTV **** on us?

James

Nobody has related any real life experiences with watching DTV on a
regularTV so I will.

I live in a rural area where analog TV reception can at best be
classified as awful. Scratchy, staticy, ghosty, fluttery, you name it,
it was in the picture. But I put up with it. Until a few years ago
when I had had enough and I bought a converter box for my TV. Man!
let me tell you. It was like moving the studio into your living room.
It was a crystal clear perfect picture the likes of which I had never
seen before. Sure it had some problems with pixelation and an
occasion freeze, but it was a friggin perfect picture!

So stop complaining about your crappy picture and go out and buy a
converter box. Sure they'll be cheaper in a year when the government
starts handing out the rebates, but then you'll have missed out on
doing the one thing that can improve your picture the most for those
months you've waited.

Go towww.antennaweb.organdsee if it says you can pick up any DTV
stations and then just go for it.

-dickm

my objection is that instead of letting the MARKET decide,government forced
the conversion,and thus obsoleted my 2 TVs and VCR,"taking" my property
without compensation.
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only one
coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.





When TracFone's carriers dropped the old analog cellphone service,TracFone
sent me a free GSM phone to replace the analog phone.

I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ineligible if you have cable subscription, even though you also have
an OTA antenna. IOW they are not helping out those who use BOTH cable
and OTA, only those that use OTA exclusively is my understanding. I
use both so I'm SOL.

It's easy to replace a regular TV with a HD TV. If you watch TV at
all, the improvement is well worth the cost. I have a plasma TV, but
no cable. I have a power HD antennae in the attic that works great.
Sometimes the reception is not too good when there are storms so I
switch over to a regular broadcast which usually eliminates cut-outs.
Or, I watch a DVD. Cable cost would exceed the plasma TV cost in 3
years or less. With an antennae you will need to do some
experimentation. I bought 5 HD power antennas, kept the best one, and
returned the others. I found that antenna cost has little to do with
quality, at least for the ones under $50. That's progress: It's time
to trash the rabbit ears.

RickH wrote in
ups.com:

On Aug 22, 2:23 am, wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:


my objection is that instead of letting the MARKET
decide,government forced the conversion,and thus obsoleted my 2 TVs
and VCR,"taking" my property without compensation.
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only
one coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.





When TracFone's carriers dropped the old analog cellphone
service,TracFone sent me a free GSM phone to replace the analog
phone.

I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ineligible if you have cable subscription, even though you also have
an OTA antenna. IOW they are not helping out those who use BOTH cable
and OTA, only those that use OTA exclusively is my understanding. I
use both so I'm SOL.




I don't have cable or satellite TV.Just OTA.
Sometimes I have both TVs on,on different channels,and tape a third.

If you have cable,what do you need OTA for?
I can see satellite dish TV possibly needing OTA for local channels,but not
cable.
If you have cable,they will handle the DTV problem with their box.
Sat.dish is already DTV.

BTW,how will they know you have cable?

FYI,there's going to be a limited quantity of $40 coupons available before
their funds run out.
Jan 01,2008,there's going to be a big rush to get your request in the
queue.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Aug 22, 1:27 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote groups.com:

On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only
one coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.

http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...at=CATV&subcat...
Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=

$200 for one converter.

That vendor appears to be more targeted at pro audio than consumers.
There are other vendors selling them today for $75:

http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...i_sku=35401162

And if it's $75 now, like all consumer electronics, how much do you
think it will be in 18 months, when you have to buy it? The coupons
are not even out yet.

There are a wide number of ATSC to USB tuners for PC out there right
now that cost $50.

Granted, you will be out some bucks, but it's not nearly as bad as you
make it out to be. If you buy 3 tuners in 2009 for $150, get $80
back, you're out more like $70.



I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

Depending on the bitching that starts when most people who are gonna
be impacted finally wake up, you may get that before it's over.
Personally, I don't see this as such a big deal. There was no great
social compact to provide NTSC forever. And compared to other govt
taking by various means, this seems small potatoes. How about cases
where the loss is major and you get squat? For example, if you own a
piece of land where you could legally divide and put up 4 houses, the
town changes the zoning and now you can only put up one. That's a
huge economic loss to the citizen, easily hundreds of thousands of
dollars, and there is zippo compensation.




--
Jim Yanik

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

wrote in
ups.com:

On Aug 22, 1:27 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
groups.com:

On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only
one coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.

http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...at=CATV&subcat.
.. Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=

$200 for one converter.

That vendor appears to be more targeted at pro audio than consumers.
There are other vendors selling them today for $75:

http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...ASE&ci_src=175
88969&ci_sku=35401162

And if it's $75 now, like all consumer electronics, how much do you
think it will be in 18 months, when you have to buy it? The coupons
are not even out yet.

There are a wide number of ATSC to USB tuners for PC out there right
now that cost $50.

great. send me the $50.
Oh,wait!my old but still usable computer doesn't have USB;(W98 1st edition)
So send me a copy of W98 SE,too,and I'll upgrade.

Granted, you will be out some bucks, but it's not nearly as bad as you
make it out to be.

If I don't have it to spare,it is.

If you buy 3 tuners in 2009 for $150, get $80
back, you're out more like $70.

That's $70 bucks of MY money that I would have spent elsewhere,on MY choice
of goods/services,if I have it at all.Maybe I'll have to go without my
medicines,or skip a few meals....maybe my limited budget has been allocated
already.



I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

Depending on the bitching that starts when most people who are gonna
be impacted finally wake up, you may get that before it's over.
Personally, I don't see this as such a big deal. There was no great
social compact to provide NTSC forever.

No,but it should have been left up to the consumer market,not arbitrarily
decided by government.

And compared to other govt
taking by various means, this seems small potatoes.

OH,-that- makes it OK....

How about cases
where the loss is major and you get squat? For example, if you own a
piece of land where you could legally divide and put up 4 houses, the
town changes the zoning and now you can only put up one. That's a
huge economic loss to the citizen, easily hundreds of thousands of
dollars, and there is zippo compensation.

That is a little bit different,as the land owner was speculating on FUTURE
development. Zoning rules have been subject to change for a long
time,affected by growth and other variables.

It's not like he had 4 houses and was made to remove 3 of them,or that the
3 extra houses (already built) could not be used.

It's like you having and using 3 cars,and the gov't comes in and takes away
the road to your house(and everyone elses,too),and puts in a bike path[no
cars allowed],and says we're giving you a coupon for part of the cost of a
bicycle,and that is how you must travel now.
Your car has become worthless,unusable.AND you have to take money you would
have used elsewhere(if you have it to spare at all),and spend it on a bike.

that is far different than people gradually disposing of their cars on
their own choice and switching to bicycles;and then the road being
underused,a new bike path put in its place.

I *already have* 3 working NTSC receivers IN USE,the
infrastructure supplying them (transmitters,antennas,program sources) is
*already in place*,and now the gov't has said I can't use them anymore.
That's a taking without compensation.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Aug 23, 1:43 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote roups.com:





On Aug 22, 1:27 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
groups.com:

On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my home,only
one coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC tuners/converters.

http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...at=CATV&subcat.
.. Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=

$200 for one converter.

That vendor appears to be more targeted at pro audio than consumers.
There are other vendors selling them today for $75:

http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...ASE&ci_src=175
88969&ci_sku=35401162

And if it's $75 now, like all consumer electronics, how much do you
think it will be in 18 months, when you have to buy it? The coupons
are not even out yet.

There are a wide number of ATSC to USB tuners for PC out there right
now that cost $50.

great. send me the $50.
Oh,wait!my old but still usable computer doesn't have USB;(W98 1st edition)
So send me a copy of W98 SE,too,and I'll upgrade.



Granted, you will be out some bucks, but it's not nearly as bad as you
make it out to be.

If I don't have it to spare,it is.

If you buy 3 tuners in 2009 for $150, get $80
back, you're out more like $70.

That's $70 bucks of MY money that I would have spent elsewhere,on MY choice
of goods/services,if I have it at all.Maybe I'll have to go without my
medicines,or skip a few meals....maybe my limited budget has been allocated
already.



I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

Depending on the bitching that starts when most people who are gonna
be impacted finally wake up, you may get that before it's over.
Personally, I don't see this as such a big deal. There was no great
social compact to provide NTSC forever.

No,but it should have been left up to the consumer market,not arbitrarily
decided by government.

And compared to other govt
taking by various means, this seems small potatoes.

OH,-that- makes it OK....

How about cases
where the loss is major and you get squat? For example, if you own a
piece of land where you could legally divide and put up 4 houses, the
town changes the zoning and now you can only put up one. That's a
huge economic loss to the citizen, easily hundreds of thousands of
dollars, and there is zippo compensation.

That is a little bit different,as the land owner was speculating on FUTURE
development. Zoning rules have been subject to change for a long
time,affected by growth and other variables.

Yes, it is a little bit different. But the govt still changed
something that directly negatively impacted the guy, and big time.
And speculation has nothing to do with it. Any fair appraisal of the
property before the zoning change and immediately after would show a
substantial change in property value, regardless of what anyone ever
intended to do with the property. And not your $70, but perhaps
$200K, without any compensation for the zoning change. Or how about
the guy that bought a bar, the govt bans smoking in bars, and now the
guy's business is down 20%? Or when they banned alcohol in the
20's? Did the govt offer any compensation in those cases, which are
orders of magnitude more financial impact? Did I get any compensation
when the govt decided to stop the manufacture of Freon, so I wound up
having to convert my classic car to R134?

You're so wrapped up in your little $70 issue, yet obviously have no
empathy for those that are impacted with no compensation at all.


It's not like he had 4 houses and was made to remove 3 of them,or that the
3 extra houses (already built) could not be used.

It's like you having and using 3 cars,and the gov't comes in and takes away
the road to your house(and everyone elses,too),and puts in a bike path[no
cars allowed],and says we're giving you a coupon for part of the cost of a
bicycle,and that is how you must travel now.
Your car has become worthless,unusable.AND you have to take money you would
have used elsewhere(if you have it to spare at all),and spend it on a bike.

that is far different than people gradually disposing of their cars on
their own choice and switching to bicycles;and then the road being
underused,a new bike path put in its place.

I *already have* 3 working NTSC receivers IN USE,the
infrastructure supplying them (transmitters,antennas,program sources) is
*already in place*,and now the gov't has said I can't use them anymore.
That's a taking without compensation.

They didn't say you can't use them anymore. The VCR still plays
tapes. You can still put a tape in the VCR and watch it on your
TV's. And they are giving you $80 is compensation. You may not like
it. But even under eminent domain, I've yet to see anyone that was
happy with what they got.

Also, what about the rights of the broadcasters, ie the guys that own
the transmitters and are the other half of the equation. They had a
say in the whole move from NTSC to ATSC and are OK with it. Maybe you
should call them up and complain.




--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Jim Yanik wrote:

SNIP HAPPENS

BTW,how will they know you have cable?


Cable company customer lists, of course.

FYI,there's going to be a limited quantity of $40 coupons available before
their funds run out.
Jan 01,2008,there's going to be a big rush to get your request in the
queue.

On Aug 23, 3:05 pm, jJim McLaughlin


BTW,how will they know you have cable?

Cable company customer lists, of course.


But....
What if you have a house in town with cable, and a trailer or cabin in
the country with OTA? Same name but 2 completely separate locations.

Red

wrote in
ups.com:

On Aug 23, 1:43 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
roups.com:





On Aug 22, 1:27 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
groups.com:

On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my
home,only one coupon per household.

I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC
tuners/converters.

http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...cat=CATV&subca
t.
.. Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=

$200 for one converter.

That vendor appears to be more targeted at pro audio than
consumers. There are other vendors selling them today for $75:

http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...BBASE&ci_src=1
75
88969&ci_sku=35401162

And if it's $75 now, like all consumer electronics, how much do you
think it will be in 18 months, when you have to buy it? The
coupons are not even out yet.

There are a wide number of ATSC to USB tuners for PC out there
right now that cost $50.

great. send me the $50.
Oh,wait!my old but still usable computer doesn't have USB;(W98 1st
edition) So send me a copy of W98 SE,too,and I'll upgrade.



Granted, you will be out some bucks, but it's not nearly as bad as
you make it out to be.

If I don't have it to spare,it is.

If you buy 3 tuners in 2009 for $150, get $80
back, you're out more like $70.

That's $70 bucks of MY money that I would have spent elsewhere,on MY
choice of goods/services,if I have it at all.Maybe I'll have to go
without my medicines,or skip a few meals....maybe my limited budget
has been allocated already.



I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.

Depending on the bitching that starts when most people who are
gonna be impacted finally wake up, you may get that before it's
over. Personally, I don't see this as such a big deal. There was
no great social compact to provide NTSC forever.

No,but it should have been left up to the consumer market,not
arbitrarily decided by government.

And compared to other govt
taking by various means, this seems small potatoes.

OH,-that- makes it OK....

How about cases
where the loss is major and you get squat? For example, if you
own a piece of land where you could legally divide and put up 4
houses, the town changes the zoning and now you can only put up
one. That's a huge economic loss to the citizen, easily hundreds
of thousands of dollars, and there is zippo compensation.

That is a little bit different,as the land owner was speculating on
FUTURE development. Zoning rules have been subject to change for a
long time,affected by growth and other variables.

Yes, it is a little bit different. But the govt still changed
something that directly negatively impacted the guy, and big time.
And speculation has nothing to do with it. Any fair appraisal of the
property before the zoning change and immediately after would show a
substantial change in property value, regardless of what anyone ever
intended to do with the property. And not your $70, but perhaps
$200K, without any compensation for the zoning change. Or how about
the guy that bought a bar, the govt bans smoking in bars, and now the
guy's business is down 20%?

Except that restaurants and bars have had INCREASES in business since the
smoking bans.People LIKE to be able to breathe clean air,not come home
reeking of cigarette stench.
(usually,bars get exempted from the no smoking law,anyways)

Or when they banned alcohol in the
20's? Did the govt offer any compensation in those cases, which are
orders of magnitude more financial impact?

All that is still the "ah,that makes it OK" BS.

Did I get any compensation
when the govt decided to stop the manufacture of Freon, so I wound up
having to convert my classic car to R134?

Ah,but you did not have to convert;AC servicers are still capable of
reclaiming and refilling R-12 systems.And your auto AC was *still working*
when the R-12 supply was halted. Now if the gov't took your R-12 out of
your AC,that would be a different matter.


You're so wrapped up in your little $70 issue,

TVs are important sources of information,particularly with hurricane and
disaster notification and public service info.
Loss of that is much more than a "$70 issue".

yet obviously have no
empathy for those that are impacted with no compensation at all.


It's not like he had 4 houses and was made to remove 3 of them,or
that the 3 extra houses (already built) could not be used.

It's like you having and using 3 cars,and the gov't comes in and
takes away the road to your house(and everyone elses,too),and puts in
a bike path[no cars allowed],and says we're giving you a coupon for
part of the cost of a bicycle,and that is how you must travel now.
Your car has become worthless,unusable.AND you have to take money you
would have used elsewhere(if you have it to spare at all),and spend
it on a bike.

that is far different than people gradually disposing of their cars
on their own choice and switching to bicycles;and then the road being
underused,a new bike path put in its place.

I *already have* 3 working NTSC receivers IN USE,the
infrastructure supplying them (transmitters,antennas,program sources)
is *already in place*,and now the gov't has said I can't use them
anymore. That's a taking without compensation.

They didn't say you can't use them anymore. The VCR still plays
tapes. You can still put a tape in the VCR and watch it on your
TV's.

The PRIMARY reason people buy VCRs is to time-shift TV programs,so they can
watch them when *they want*,not just when broadcast.

And they are giving you $80 is compensation. You may not like
it. But even under eminent domain, I've yet to see anyone that was
happy with what they got.

Also, what about the rights of the broadcasters, ie the guys that own
the transmitters and are the other half of the equation. They had a
say in the whole move from NTSC to ATSC and are OK with it. Maybe you
should call them up and complain.

Broadcasters get to write off equipment costs on tax returns.
and they already have a budget for equipment upgrades,and they recover
their expenses through ad fees.They can increase those fees if they wish.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Red wrote:
On Aug 23, 3:05 pm, jJim McLaughlin

BTW,how will they know you have cable?

Cable company customer lists, of course.



But....
What if you have a house in town with cable, and a trailer or cabin in
the country with OTA? Same name but 2 completely separate locations.

Red

Smile. Bend over. Grab your ankles. Its the government. (BFG)

I figure the fedss could get from the post ofice a listing, with 11
(yes, there are really 11) digit zip codes, of all residental addresses
just like they do for the census,cross that with cable
company customer lists , delete all cable company customer
addresses and mail coupons to the remaning addresses in the
USPS residenses list.

But it really ain't my problem, I don't care how they do it,
and I won't play "yeah, but" games with you.

Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote in
ups.com:

On Aug 23, 1:43 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
roups.com:





On Aug 22, 1:27 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
groups.com:
On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my
home,only one coupon per household.
I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC
tuners/converters.
http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...cat=CATV&subca
t.
.. Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=
$200 for one converter.
That vendor appears to be more targeted at pro audio than
consumers. There are other vendors selling them today for $75:
http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...BBASE&ci_src=1
75
88969&ci_sku=35401162
And if it's $75 now, like all consumer electronics, how much do you
think it will be in 18 months, when you have to buy it? The
coupons are not even out yet.
There are a wide number of ATSC to USB tuners for PC out there
right now that cost $50.
great. send me the $50.
Oh,wait!my old but still usable computer doesn't have USB;(W98 1st
edition) So send me a copy of W98 SE,too,and I'll upgrade.



Granted, you will be out some bucks, but it's not nearly as bad as
you make it out to be.
If I don't have it to spare,it is.

If you buy 3 tuners in 2009 for $150, get $80
back, you're out more like $70.
That's $70 bucks of MY money that I would have spent elsewhere,on MY
choice of goods/services,if I have it at all.Maybe I'll have to go
without my medicines,or skip a few meals....maybe my limited budget
has been allocated already.



I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.
Depending on the bitching that starts when most people who are
gonna be impacted finally wake up, you may get that before it's
over. Personally, I don't see this as such a big deal. There was
no great social compact to provide NTSC forever.
No,but it should have been left up to the consumer market,not
arbitrarily decided by government.

And compared to other govt
taking by various means, this seems small potatoes.
OH,-that- makes it OK....

How about cases
where the loss is major and you get squat? For example, if you
own a piece of land where you could legally divide and put up 4
houses, the town changes the zoning and now you can only put up
one. That's a huge economic loss to the citizen, easily hundreds
of thousands of dollars, and there is zippo compensation.
That is a little bit different,as the land owner was speculating on
FUTURE development. Zoning rules have been subject to change for a
long time,affected by growth and other variables.
Yes, it is a little bit different. But the govt still changed
something that directly negatively impacted the guy, and big time.
And speculation has nothing to do with it. Any fair appraisal of the
property before the zoning change and immediately after would show a
substantial change in property value, regardless of what anyone ever
intended to do with the property. And not your $70, but perhaps
$200K, without any compensation for the zoning change. Or how about
the guy that bought a bar, the govt bans smoking in bars, and now the
guy's business is down 20%?

Except that restaurants and bars have had INCREASES in business since the
smoking bans.People LIKE to be able to breathe clean air,not come home
reeking of cigarette stench.
(usually,bars get exempted from the no smoking law,anyways)

Or when they banned alcohol in the
20's? Did the govt offer any compensation in those cases, which are
orders of magnitude more financial impact?

All that is still the "ah,that makes it OK" BS.

Did I get any compensation
when the govt decided to stop the manufacture of Freon, so I wound up
having to convert my classic car to R134?

Ah,but you did not have to convert;AC servicers are still capable of
reclaiming and refilling R-12 systems.And your auto AC was *still working*
when the R-12 supply was halted. Now if the gov't took your R-12 out of
your AC,that would be a different matter.

You're so wrapped up in your little $70 issue,

TVs are important sources of information,particularly with hurricane and
disaster notification and public service info.
Loss of that is much more than a "$70 issue".

yet obviously have no
empathy for those that are impacted with no compensation at all.

It's not like he had 4 houses and was made to remove 3 of them,or
that the 3 extra houses (already built) could not be used.

It's like you having and using 3 cars,and the gov't comes in and
takes away the road to your house(and everyone elses,too),and puts in
a bike path[no cars allowed],and says we're giving you a coupon for
part of the cost of a bicycle,and that is how you must travel now.
Your car has become worthless,unusable.AND you have to take money you
would have used elsewhere(if you have it to spare at all),and spend
it on a bike.

that is far different than people gradually disposing of their cars
on their own choice and switching to bicycles;and then the road being
underused,a new bike path put in its place.

I *already have* 3 working NTSC receivers IN USE,the
infrastructure supplying them (transmitters,antennas,program sources)
is *already in place*,and now the gov't has said I can't use them
anymore. That's a taking without compensation.
They didn't say you can't use them anymore. The VCR still plays
tapes. You can still put a tape in the VCR and watch it on your
TV's.

The PRIMARY reason people buy VCRs is to time-shift TV programs,so they can
watch them when *they want*,not just when broadcast.

And they are giving you $80 is compensation. You may not like
it. But even under eminent domain, I've yet to see anyone that was
happy with what they got.

Also, what about the rights of the broadcasters, ie the guys that own
the transmitters and are the other half of the equation. They had a
say in the whole move from NTSC to ATSC and are OK with it. Maybe you
should call them up and complain.

Broadcasters get to write off equipment costs on tax returns.
and they already have a budget for equipment upgrades,and they recover
their expenses through ad fees.They can increase those fees if they wish.

If it's such a big deal, where were you when they took away channels 70
thru 83 and sold them to the cellular phone companies? And channels
60-69 will be gone after the changeover for "emergency services" use.
How about when they did away with party line telephones? How about when
they forced you to buy airbags, or seat belts, or even windshield wipers
on cars? Things change. Get over it. If you can't afford three converter
boxes, then you shouldn't have three televisions either. Television,
especially color, is a luxury, at least that's what my parent's told me
for years. If you need weather warnings and/or news, use a radio... Oh
yeah, I forgot, that's going digital as well. Tough luck.

As for write-offs, you obviously have never been in business. Equipment
and expenditures over a certain dollar value must be DEPRECIATED over
the expected life of the equipment. Same thing is true of your old junk
televisions. If your house burned down tomorrow, do you think your
insurance company is going to pay you what you spent to buy those old
junkers? Fat chance, even with a full replacement value policy. You'd be
paid for like kind and quality.

The change from analog to digital broadcasting was announced over ten
years ago, proposed ten before that, and postponed at least twice. The
final date was set by an act of Congress, so if you are that opposed to
the change, blame your representative and senators, and vote them out!

Husky wrote in
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote in
ups.com:

On Aug 23, 1:43 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
roups.com:





On Aug 22, 1:27 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
groups.com:
On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my
home,only one coupon per household.
I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC
tuners/converters.
http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...0&cat=CATV&sub
ca t.
.. Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=
$200 for one converter.
That vendor appears to be more targeted at pro audio than
consumers. There are other vendors selling them today for $75:
http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...EWBBASE&ci_src
=1 75
88969&ci_sku=35401162
And if it's $75 now, like all consumer electronics, how much do
you think it will be in 18 months, when you have to buy it? The
coupons are not even out yet.
There are a wide number of ATSC to USB tuners for PC out there
right now that cost $50.
great. send me the $50.
Oh,wait!my old but still usable computer doesn't have USB;(W98 1st
edition) So send me a copy of W98 SE,too,and I'll upgrade.



Granted, you will be out some bucks, but it's not nearly as bad as
you make it out to be.
If I don't have it to spare,it is.

If you buy 3 tuners in 2009 for $150, get $80
back, you're out more like $70.
That's $70 bucks of MY money that I would have spent elsewhere,on
MY choice of goods/services,if I have it at all.Maybe I'll have to
go without my medicines,or skip a few meals....maybe my limited
budget has been allocated already.



I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.
Depending on the bitching that starts when most people who are
gonna be impacted finally wake up, you may get that before it's
over. Personally, I don't see this as such a big deal. There was
no great social compact to provide NTSC forever.
No,but it should have been left up to the consumer market,not
arbitrarily decided by government.

And compared to other govt
taking by various means, this seems small potatoes.
OH,-that- makes it OK....

How about cases
where the loss is major and you get squat? For example, if you
own a piece of land where you could legally divide and put up 4
houses, the town changes the zoning and now you can only put up
one. That's a huge economic loss to the citizen, easily hundreds
of thousands of dollars, and there is zippo compensation.
That is a little bit different,as the land owner was speculating on
FUTURE development. Zoning rules have been subject to change for a
long time,affected by growth and other variables.
Yes, it is a little bit different. But the govt still changed
something that directly negatively impacted the guy, and big time.
And speculation has nothing to do with it. Any fair appraisal of
the property before the zoning change and immediately after would
show a substantial change in property value, regardless of what
anyone ever intended to do with the property. And not your $70,
but perhaps $200K, without any compensation for the zoning change.
Or how about the guy that bought a bar, the govt bans smoking in
bars, and now the guy's business is down 20%?

Except that restaurants and bars have had INCREASES in business since
the smoking bans.People LIKE to be able to breathe clean air,not come
home reeking of cigarette stench.
(usually,bars get exempted from the no smoking law,anyways)

Or when they banned alcohol in the
20's? Did the govt offer any compensation in those cases, which are
orders of magnitude more financial impact?

All that is still the "ah,that makes it OK" BS.

Did I get any compensation
when the govt decided to stop the manufacture of Freon, so I wound
up having to convert my classic car to R134?

Ah,but you did not have to convert;AC servicers are still capable of
reclaiming and refilling R-12 systems.And your auto AC was *still
working* when the R-12 supply was halted. Now if the gov't took your
R-12 out of your AC,that would be a different matter.

You're so wrapped up in your little $70 issue,

TVs are important sources of information,particularly with hurricane
and disaster notification and public service info.
Loss of that is much more than a "$70 issue".

yet obviously have no
empathy for those that are impacted with no compensation at all.

It's not like he had 4 houses and was made to remove 3 of them,or
that the 3 extra houses (already built) could not be used.

It's like you having and using 3 cars,and the gov't comes in and
takes away the road to your house(and everyone elses,too),and puts
in a bike path[no cars allowed],and says we're giving you a coupon
for part of the cost of a bicycle,and that is how you must travel
now. Your car has become worthless,unusable.AND you have to take
money you would have used elsewhere(if you have it to spare at
all),and spend it on a bike.

that is far different than people gradually disposing of their cars
on their own choice and switching to bicycles;and then the road
being underused,a new bike path put in its place.

I *already have* 3 working NTSC receivers IN USE,the
infrastructure supplying them (transmitters,antennas,program
sources) is *already in place*,and now the gov't has said I can't
use them anymore. That's a taking without compensation.
They didn't say you can't use them anymore. The VCR still plays
tapes. You can still put a tape in the VCR and watch it on your
TV's.

The PRIMARY reason people buy VCRs is to time-shift TV programs,so
they can watch them when *they want*,not just when broadcast.

And they are giving you $80 is compensation. You may not like
it. But even under eminent domain, I've yet to see anyone that was
happy with what they got.

Also, what about the rights of the broadcasters, ie the guys that
own the transmitters and are the other half of the equation. They
had a say in the whole move from NTSC to ATSC and are OK with it.
Maybe you should call them up and complain.

Broadcasters get to write off equipment costs on tax returns.
and they already have a budget for equipment upgrades,and they
recover their expenses through ad fees.They can increase those fees
if they wish.

If it's such a big deal, where were you when they took away channels
70 thru 83 and sold them to the cellular phone companies?

Which didn't kill the entire use of anyone's TV.

And channels
60-69 will be gone after the changeover for "emergency services" use.
How about when they did away with party line telephones?

Same thing;didn't kill the complete use of your phone.
How about
when they forced you to buy airbags, or seat belts, or even windshield
wipers on cars?

They didn't force me to install them on my old car.

Things change. Get over it. If you can't afford three
converter boxes, then you shouldn't have three televisions either.

What an elitist.

Television, especially color, is a luxury, at least that's what my
parent's told me for years. If you need weather warnings and/or news,
use a radio... Oh yeah, I forgot, that's going digital as well. Tough
luck.

As for write-offs, you obviously have never been in business.
Equipment and expenditures over a certain dollar value must be
DEPRECIATED over the expected life of the equipment. Same thing is
true of your old junk televisions. If your house burned down tomorrow,
do you think your insurance company is going to pay you what you spent
to buy those old junkers? Fat chance, even with a full replacement
value policy. You'd be paid for like kind and quality.

The change from analog to digital broadcasting was announced over ten
years ago, proposed ten before that, and postponed at least twice. The
final date was set by an act of Congress, so if you are that opposed
to the change, blame your representative and senators, and vote them
out!

Far too many of you are too willing to accept the gov't taking your stuff
without compensation;Sheeples.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Aug 27, 1:29 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
Husky wrote :





Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote in
roups.com:

On Aug 23, 1:43 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

On Aug 22, 1:27 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote
groups.com:
On Aug 21, 8:17 am, Jim Yanik wrote:
They will not give coupons for all three receivers in my
home,only one coupon per household.
I'ts two $40 coupons per household to buy ATSC
tuners/converters.
http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?ba...0&cat=CATV&sub
ca t.
.. Class=TVCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=
$200 for one converter.
That vendor appears to be more targeted at pro audio than
consumers. There are other vendors selling them today for $75:
http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...EWBBASE&ci_src
=1 75
88969&ci_sku=35401162
And if it's $75 now, like all consumer electronics, how much do
you think it will be in 18 months, when you have to buy it? The
coupons are not even out yet.
There are a wide number of ATSC to USB tuners for PC out there
right now that cost $50.
great. send me the $50.
Oh,wait!my old but still usable computer doesn't have USB;(W98 1st
edition) So send me a copy of W98 SE,too,and I'll upgrade.

Granted, you will be out some bucks, but it's not nearly as bad as
you make it out to be.
If I don't have it to spare,it is.

If you buy 3 tuners in 2009 for $150, get $80
back, you're out more like $70.
That's $70 bucks of MY money that I would have spent elsewhere,on
MY choice of goods/services,if I have it at all.Maybe I'll have to
go without my medicines,or skip a few meals....maybe my limited
budget has been allocated already.

I should be getting 3 converters at no cost.
Depending on the bitching that starts when most people who are
gonna be impacted finally wake up, you may get that before it's
over. Personally, I don't see this as such a big deal. There was
no great social compact to provide NTSC forever.
No,but it should have been left up to the consumer market,not
arbitrarily decided by government.

And compared to other govt
taking by various means, this seems small potatoes.
OH,-that- makes it OK....

How about cases
where the loss is major and you get squat? For example, if you
own a piece of land where you could legally divide and put up 4
houses, the town changes the zoning and now you can only put up
one. That's a huge economic loss to the citizen, easily hundreds
of thousands of dollars, and there is zippo compensation.
That is a little bit different,as the land owner was speculating on
FUTURE development. Zoning rules have been subject to change for a
long time,affected by growth and other variables.
Yes, it is a little bit different. But the govt still changed
something that directly negatively impacted the guy, and big time.
And speculation has nothing to do with it. Any fair appraisal of
the property before the zoning change and immediately after would
show a substantial change in property value, regardless of what
anyone ever intended to do with the property. And not your $70,
but perhaps $200K, without any compensation for the zoning change.
Or how about the guy that bought a bar, the govt bans smoking in
bars, and now the guy's business is down 20%?

Except that restaurants and bars have had INCREASES in business since
the smoking bans.People LIKE to be able to breathe clean air,not come
home reeking of cigarette stench.
(usually,bars get exempted from the no smoking law,anyways)

Or when they banned alcohol in the
20's? Did the govt offer any compensation in those cases, which are
orders of magnitude more financial impact?

All that is still the "ah,that makes it OK" BS.

Did I get any compensation
when the govt decided to stop the manufacture of Freon, so I wound
up having to convert my classic car to R134?

Ah,but you did not have to convert;AC servicers are still capable of
reclaiming and refilling R-12 systems.And your auto AC was *still
working* when the R-12 supply was halted. Now if the gov't took your
R-12 out of your AC,that would be a different matter.

You're so wrapped up in your little $70 issue,

TVs are important sources of information,particularly with hurricane
and disaster notification and public service info.
Loss of that is much more than a "$70 issue".

yet obviously have no
empathy for those that are impacted with no compensation at all.

It's not like he had 4 houses and was made to remove 3 of them,or
that the 3 extra houses (already built) could not be used.

It's like you having and using 3 cars,and the gov't comes in and
takes away the road to your house(and everyone elses,too),and puts
in a bike path[no cars allowed],and says we're giving you a coupon
for part of the cost of a bicycle,and that is how you must travel
now. Your car has become worthless,unusable.AND you have to take
money you would have used elsewhere(if you have it to spare at
all),and spend it on a bike.

that is far different than people gradually disposing of their cars
on their own choice and switching to bicycles;and then the road
being underused,a new bike path put in its place.

I *already have* 3 working NTSC receivers IN USE,the
infrastructure supplying them (transmitters,antennas,program
sources) is *already in place*,and now the gov't has said I can't
use them anymore. That's a taking without compensation.
They didn't say you can't use them anymore. The VCR still plays
tapes. You can still put a tape in the VCR and watch it on your
TV's.

The PRIMARY reason people buy VCRs is to time-shift TV programs,so
they can watch them when *they want*,not just when broadcast.

And they are giving you $80 is compensation. You may not like
it. But even under eminent domain, I've yet to see anyone that was
happy with what they got.

Also, what about the rights of the broadcasters, ie the guys that
own the transmitters and are the other half of the equation. They
had a say in the whole move from NTSC to ATSC and are OK with it.
Maybe you should call them up and complain.

Broadcasters get to write off equipment costs on tax returns.
and they already have a budget for equipment upgrades,and they
recover their expenses through ad fees.They can increase those fees
if they wish.

If it's such a big deal, where were you when they took away channels
70 thru 83 and sold them to the cellular phone companies?

Which didn't kill the entire use of anyone's TV.

And channels
60-69 will be gone after the changeover for "emergency services" use.
How about when they did away with party line telephones?

Same thing;didn't kill the complete use of your phone.

How about
when they forced you to buy airbags, or seat belts, or even windshield
wipers on cars?

They didn't force me to install them on my old car.

Things change. Get over it. If you can't afford three
converter boxes, then you shouldn't have three televisions either.

What an elitist.





Television, especially color, is a luxury, at least that's what my
parent's told me for years. If you need weather warnings and/or news,
use a radio... Oh yeah, I forgot, that's going digital as well. Tough
luck.

As for write-offs, you obviously have never been in business.
Equipment and expenditures over a certain dollar value must be
DEPRECIATED over the expected life of the equipment. Same thing is
true of your old junk televisions. If your house burned down tomorrow,
do you think your insurance company is going to pay you what you spent
to buy those old junkers? Fat chance, even with a full replacement
value policy. You'd be paid for like kind and quality.

The change from analog to digital broadcasting was announced over ten
years ago, proposed ten before that, and postponed at least twice. The
final date was set by an act of Congress, so if you are that opposed
to the change, blame your representative and senators, and vote them
out!

Far too many of you are too willing to accept the gov't taking your stuff
without compensation;Sheeples.




Including you, hypocrite. You said govt changing the zoning of land
someone owns so that it goes from accomodating 4 buildable lots to 1,
resulting in a change in value of say $200K, is no big deal, because
it was based on speculation. That if govt bans smoking in your bar,
and you lose 20% of your business, it's no big deal, because according
to you, business always increases. Or when govt mandated the phase
out of R12 and I had to convert my classic car to freon. You're
right, I didn't HAVE to. I could have tried to continue to get R12,
but if you know the history of this, you know the cost went through
the roof in the 90s, it was in short supply. So, it made more sense
to bite the bullet and convert. Either way, buy expensive R12 or
convert, the result is the same, $$$ out of my pocket, by a govt
action.

You've defended or made excuses for all of the above, which are all
cases of govt changing the status quo that result in real economic
loss. But when it comes to your own case, where you are at least
getting $80 to help pay for ATSC tuners that should cost about $50
each by late next year, and you might be out $70, if you buy 3 of
them, well that'a big Fnng deal. What a crybaby.








--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heard of SNIP ? You dont have to quote the same 100+ lines to add ONE of
your own

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message

BIG SNIP

Far too many of you are too willing to accept the gov't taking your stuff
without compensation;Sheeples.


--
Jim Yanik