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#1
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
I suspect that the answer is no, but want to double check.
Residential. Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. Obviously, wiring would match the breaker's capacity. thanks i |
#2
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
"Ignoramus2331" wrote in message ... I suspect that the answer is no, but want to double check. Residential. Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. Obviously, wiring would match the breaker's capacity. thanks i No |
#3
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote:
Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. Yes. "Multiwire branch circuits shall supply only line-to-neutral loads. ... Exception: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by the branch-circuit overcurrent device." [2005 NEC, Article 210.4(C)] -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#4
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Ignoramus2331" wrote in message m... Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. No Bzzzt! Sorry, but thanks for playing. Specifically permitted unter NEC 210.4(C), Exception 2. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#5
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:53:55 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. Yes. "Multiwire branch circuits shall supply only line-to-neutral loads. ... Exception: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by the branch-circuit overcurrent device." [2005 NEC, Article 210.4(C)] This is great. I have existing conduit going into my basement "workshop". It supplies 110v right now. I want to rewire it to supply 20A 220v, with neutral, and will add 110v outlets on both legs, as well as 220v outlets. On the main panel, I will use a double pole 220v breaker so that ``all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by'' that breaker. The reason for it I want to convert my drill press to three phase with VFD, mostly for tapping. I need 220v for it. Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. i |
#6
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article ,
Ignoramus2331 wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:53:55 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. Yes. "Multiwire branch circuits shall supply only line-to-neutral loads. ... Exception: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by the branch-circuit overcurrent device." [2005 NEC, Article 210.4(C)] This is great. I have existing conduit going into my basement "workshop". It supplies 110v right now. I want to rewire it to supply 20A 220v, with neutral, and will add 110v outlets on both legs, as well as 220v outlets. On the main panel, I will use a double pole 220v breaker so that ``all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by'' that breaker. The reason for it I want to convert my drill press to three phase with VFD, mostly for tapping. I need 220v for it. Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. i Other than the obvious concern about whether your existing conduit has enough room for the extra wires, I'm curious about your tapping requirements. We use standard 120 VAC drill presses all the time for tapping, with Tapmatic or other brand tapping heads. Are you talking about rigid tapping? Just curious. |
#7
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:33:30 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
Other than the obvious concern about whether your existing conduit has enough room for the extra wires, I'm curious about your tapping requirements. We use standard 120 VAC drill presses all the time for tapping, with Tapmatic or other brand tapping heads. Are you talking about rigid tapping? Just curious. I think that a 1/2" conduit has enough room for three 12 gauge conductors. I would have to double check. As for the drill press, there are many reasons why I may want my drill press to go slow, including drilling larger holes in steel, etc. i |
#8
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
According to Ignoramus2331 :
This is great. I have existing conduit going into my basement "workshop". It supplies 110v right now. I want to rewire it to supply 20A 220v, with neutral, and will add 110v outlets on both legs, as well as 220v outlets. On the main panel, I will use a double pole 220v breaker so that ``all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by'' that breaker. The reason for it I want to convert my drill press to three phase with VFD, mostly for tapping. I need 220v for it. Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. That sounds _way_ more than can be supported off a single circuit, 240/120 or otherwise. You'd be better off running multiple circuits, some dedicated 240, others 120. Or put a subpanel in the basement and do it from there. -- Chris Lewis, Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#9
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:22:58 -0500, Ignoramus2331
wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:53:55 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. Yes. "Multiwire branch circuits shall supply only line-to-neutral loads. ... Exception: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by the branch-circuit overcurrent device." [2005 NEC, Article 210.4(C)] This is great. I have existing conduit going into my basement "workshop". It supplies 110v right now. I want to rewire it to supply 20A 220v, with neutral, and will add 110v outlets on both legs, as well as 220v outlets. On the main panel, I will use a double pole 220v breaker so that ``all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by'' that breaker. The reason for it I want to convert my drill press to three phase with VFD, mostly for tapping. I need 220v for it. Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. i Some pumps use a lot of power. The one you are talking about is probably not as high as some, but you should consider it. The drill's power consumption could be high too. |
#10
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote:
Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. Now *that* part is a potential problem.You'll want to split the multiwire circuit into two separate 120V circuits on the LINE (input) side of the GFCI, or use a double-pole GFCI breaker. Those aren't cheap. The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. Good reason for using GFCIs. But why the same circuit? -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#11
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:39:57 -0000, Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Ignoramus2331 : This is great. I have existing conduit going into my basement "workshop". It supplies 110v right now. I want to rewire it to supply 20A 220v, with neutral, and will add 110v outlets on both legs, as well as 220v outlets. On the main panel, I will use a double pole 220v breaker so that ``all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by'' that breaker. The reason for it I want to convert my drill press to three phase with VFD, mostly for tapping. I need 220v for it. Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. That sounds _way_ more than can be supported off a single circuit, 240/120 or otherwise. You'd be better off running multiple circuits, some dedicated 240, others 120. Or put a subpanel in the basement and do it from there. Right now, the pump is 1 honest HP and draws about 10A 110V. I do not think that it will be a big deal for a 20A circuit. i |
#12
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:42:48 -0400, Terry wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:22:58 -0500, Ignoramus2331 wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:53:55 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: Can I have a circuit, protected by a double pole circuit breaker, that would have a neutral and both 220v, as well as 110v, outlets. Yes. "Multiwire branch circuits shall supply only line-to-neutral loads. ... Exception: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by the branch-circuit overcurrent device." [2005 NEC, Article 210.4(C)] This is great. I have existing conduit going into my basement "workshop". It supplies 110v right now. I want to rewire it to supply 20A 220v, with neutral, and will add 110v outlets on both legs, as well as 220v outlets. On the main panel, I will use a double pole 220v breaker so that ``all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simulaneously by'' that breaker. The reason for it I want to convert my drill press to three phase with VFD, mostly for tapping. I need 220v for it. Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. i Some pumps use a lot of power. The one you are talking about is probably not as high as some, but you should consider it. The drill's power consumption could be high too. The pump is 1 HP, about 10 amps or even a little less (I should look at the nameplate). It is a lawn sprinkler pump by Wayne. i |
#13
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:33:30 -0700, Smitty Two wrote: Other than the obvious concern about whether your existing conduit has enough room for the extra wires, I'm curious about your tapping requirements. We use standard 120 VAC drill presses all the time for tapping, with Tapmatic or other brand tapping heads. Are you talking about rigid tapping? Just curious. I think that a 1/2" conduit has enough room for three 12 gauge conductors. I would have to double check. Electrically, it depends on the conduit and the type of wire. For most combinations of the two, you're good, but (for example) with type RHH or RHW wire in Sched. 80 rigid PVC conduit, you're limited to two 12ga conductors total. Obviously if there are other wires there already, you need to take that into account as well when calculating the conduit capacity. Physically, you may find it awkward to pull three conductors through 1/2 conduit, especially if there are already conductors in it. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#14
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:49:42 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. Now *that* part is a potential problem.You'll want to split the multiwire circuit into two separate 120V circuits on the LINE (input) side of the GFCI, or use a double-pole GFCI breaker. Those aren't cheap. I would do the former (protect the outdoor outlets with an outlet GFCI, separate GFCI for 110v and 220v outlets). The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. Good reason for using GFCIs. But why the same circuit? All slots taken on the panel. i |
#15
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:49:42 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: Also, on the same circuit, outside the basement wall, I want to add outdoor receptacles (110v and 220v) for my pool's pump. It would be GFCI protected and I will use outdoor rared hardware. Now *that* part is a potential problem.You'll want to split the multiwire circuit into two separate 120V circuits on the LINE (input) side of the GFCI, or use a double-pole GFCI breaker. Those aren't cheap. I would do the former (protect the outdoor outlets with an outlet GFCI, separate GFCI for 110v and 220v outlets). The above mentioned pump runs a water slide on my inflatable round pool, which also doubles as a water filter. Good reason for using GFCIs. But why the same circuit? All slots taken on the panel. Half-height breakers are a good solution to that, if your panel supports them. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#16
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:56:47 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:33:30 -0700, Smitty Two wrote: Other than the obvious concern about whether your existing conduit has enough room for the extra wires, I'm curious about your tapping requirements. We use standard 120 VAC drill presses all the time for tapping, with Tapmatic or other brand tapping heads. Are you talking about rigid tapping? Just curious. I think that a 1/2" conduit has enough room for three 12 gauge conductors. I would have to double check. Electrically, it depends on the conduit and the type of wire. For most combinations of the two, you're good, but (for example) with type RHH or RHW wire in Sched. 80 rigid PVC conduit, you're limited to two 12ga conductors total. Obviously if there are other wires there already, you need to take that into account as well when calculating the conduit capacity. Physically, you may find it awkward to pull three conductors through 1/2 conduit, especially if there are already conductors in it. Well, I would pull out the existing wires and pull new ones in. It is not that long. Just one bend from the panel. My conduit is steel. i |
#17
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:56:47 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: Electrically, it depends on the conduit and the type of wire. For most combinations of the two, you're good, but (for example) with type RHH or RHW wire in Sched. 80 rigid PVC conduit, you're limited to two 12ga conductors total. Obviously if there are other wires there already, you need to take that into account as well when calculating the conduit capacity. Physically, you may find it awkward to pull three conductors through 1/2 conduit, especially if there are already conductors in it. Well, I would pull out the existing wires and pull new ones in. It is not that long. Just one bend from the panel. My conduit is steel. Rigid or flexible? Thickwall, intermediate, or thinwall? What type of conductors? -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#18
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:10:13 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:56:47 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: Electrically, it depends on the conduit and the type of wire. For most combinations of the two, you're good, but (for example) with type RHH or RHW wire in Sched. 80 rigid PVC conduit, you're limited to two 12ga conductors total. Obviously if there are other wires there already, you need to take that into account as well when calculating the conduit capacity. Physically, you may find it awkward to pull three conductors through 1/2 conduit, especially if there are already conductors in it. Well, I would pull out the existing wires and pull new ones in. It is not that long. Just one bend from the panel. My conduit is steel. Rigid or flexible? Thickwall, intermediate, or thinwall? What type of conductors? thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN i |
#19
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote:
thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN Code permits up to 9 (!!) 12AWG THHN conductors in 1/2" thinwall ("electrical metallic tubing" or EMT), so you're perfectly good with three or four. Even though Code permits using the conduit as the equipment grounding conductor, I prefer to pull a separate wire when possible. Nine would be pretty tough to pull, though. g -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#20
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:22 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN Code permits up to 9 (!!) 12AWG THHN conductors in 1/2" thinwall ("electrical metallic tubing" or EMT), so you're perfectly good with three or four. Even though Code permits using the conduit as the equipment grounding conductor, I prefer to pull a separate wire when possible. Nine would be pretty tough to pull, though. g And seriously derated in ampacity. -- Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net |
#21
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:22 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN Code permits up to 9 (!!) 12AWG THHN conductors in 1/2" thinwall ("electrical metallic tubing" or EMT), so you're perfectly good with three or four. Even though Code permits using the conduit as the equipment grounding conductor, I prefer to pull a separate wire when possible. Nine would be pretty tough to pull, though. g OK... So, my plans are solidifying, then. I am going to make it a 20A, 220V, circuit, protected by a double pole breaker. For the outdoor receptacle, I will have two outlets: one double 110v GFCI outlet on one of the legs, and one 20A, 220v outlet, protected by its own GFCI. I hope that such a thing exists. The outdoor 20a outlet, would be for the purposes of maybe upgrading the pool pump one day or adding a pool heater. i |
#22
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
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#23
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
In article ,
Ignoramus2331 wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:22 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN Code permits up to 9 (!!) 12AWG THHN conductors in 1/2" thinwall ("electrical metallic tubing" or EMT), so you're perfectly good with three or four. Even though Code permits using the conduit as the equipment grounding conductor, I prefer to pull a separate wire when possible. Nine would be pretty tough to pull, though. g OK... So, my plans are solidifying, then. I am going to make it a 20A, 220V, circuit, protected by a double pole breaker. For the outdoor receptacle, I will have two outlets: one double 110v GFCI outlet on one of the legs, and one 20A, 220v outlet, protected by its own GFCI. I hope that such a thing exists. The outdoor 20a outlet, would be for the purposes of maybe upgrading the pool pump one day or adding a pool heater. i Are you going to make your own three-phase in the basement? |
#24
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:19:20 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:22 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN Code permits up to 9 (!!) 12AWG THHN conductors in 1/2" thinwall ("electrical metallic tubing" or EMT), so you're perfectly good with three or four. Even though Code permits using the conduit as the equipment grounding conductor, I prefer to pull a separate wire when possible. Nine would be pretty tough to pull, though. g OK... So, my plans are solidifying, then. I am going to make it a 20A, 220V, circuit, protected by a double pole breaker. For the outdoor receptacle, I will have two outlets: one double 110v GFCI outlet on one of the legs, and one 20A, 220v outlet, protected by its own GFCI. I hope that such a thing exists. The outdoor 20a outlet, would be for the purposes of maybe upgrading the pool pump one day or adding a pool heater. i Are you going to make your own three-phase in the basement? I will use a VFD, which "sort of" makes three phase. I do make real three phase in the garage, however. i |
#25
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
Art Greenberg wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:22 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN Code permits up to 9 (!!) 12AWG THHN conductors in 1/2" thinwall ("electrical metallic tubing" or EMT), so you're perfectly good with three or four. Even though Code permits using the conduit as the equipment grounding conductor, I prefer to pull a separate wire when possible. Nine would be pretty tough to pull, though. g And seriously derated in ampacity. That is an interesting point. Say you have 4 circuits - hot and neutral - plus a ground wire - 9 wires all #12. The ground wire does not count for derating. For 8 wires (up to 9 wires) the derating is 70%. The ampacity of THHN is 30A (but it must in general be protected at 20A). 70% of 30A is 21A. The 4 circuits may be used at 20A. THHN is wonderful stuff. -- bud-- |
#26
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
Ignoramus2331 wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:22 GMT, Doug Miller wrote: In article , Ignoramus2331 wrote: thinwall, rigid, 12 gauge THHN Code permits up to 9 (!!) 12AWG THHN conductors in 1/2" thinwall ("electrical metallic tubing" or EMT), so you're perfectly good with three or four. Even though Code permits using the conduit as the equipment grounding conductor, I prefer to pull a separate wire when possible. Nine would be pretty tough to pull, though. g OK... So, my plans are solidifying, then. I am going to make it a 20A, 220V, circuit, protected by a double pole breaker. For the outdoor receptacle, I will have two outlets: one double 110v GFCI outlet on one of the legs, and one 20A, 220v outlet, protected by its own GFCI. I hope that such a thing exists. The outdoor 20a outlet, would be for the purposes of maybe upgrading the pool pump one day or adding a pool heater. Easiest (not necessarily least expensive) might be two-phase GFCI breaker. Then the whole circuit is protected. Yours aye, W. Underhill -- "Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star" -- Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/ SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/ LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/ |
#27
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
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#28
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NEC question -- can a circuit have both 220v and 110v outlets
On 2007-08-06, bud-- wrote:
I never figured out why the same wire, when wet, has a lower ampacity. Any clue? Since the ampacity is based on the temperature at which the insulation will start to break down, presumably when wet the insulation will break down at a lower temperature. Just a WAG. Cheers, Wayne |
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