"Keith Stelter" wrote in
:

With so much stuff being made in China and India these days, The
Harbor Freight situation is kind of like the Family Dollar situation.
You can buy name brand athletic shoes for $100.00 at a sporting goods
store, or you can buy a nearly identical shoe made in the same factory
by the same people at Family Dollar for $10.00. You just aren't paying
for the name. Most of the tool companies who used to make quality
tools are having their stuff made in China now, so the impact wrench
that you get with a "Pittsburgh Tools" sticker on it at HF is the same
as the Rockwell or Ingersoll one that costs 3 times more. I own a
machine shop so I HATE that everything is going overseas, but at least
Harbor Freight is selling the imported stuff at a reasonable price
without trying to portray it as high quality by selling it under a
well known brand name.

A large part of the price difference is due to far less parts and service
support on the cheap stuff.Then,better tools have better
materials,tolerances,finer machining,better assembly and quality control.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Aug 10, 9:17 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Keith Stelter" wrote m:

With so much stuff being made in China and India these days, The
Harbor Freight situation is kind of like the Family Dollar situation.
You can buy name brand athletic shoes for $100.00 at a sporting goods
store, or you can buy a nearly identical shoe made in the same factory
by the same people at Family Dollar for $10.00. You just aren't paying
for the name. Most of the tool companies who used to make quality
tools are having their stuff made in China now, so the impact wrench
that you get with a "Pittsburgh Tools" sticker on it at HF is the same
as the Rockwell or Ingersoll one that costs 3 times more. I own a
machine shop so I HATE that everything is going overseas, but at least
Harbor Freight is selling the imported stuff at a reasonable price
without trying to portray it as high quality by selling it under a
well known brand name.

A large part of the price difference is due to far less parts and service
support on the cheap stuff.Then,better tools have better
materials,tolerances,finer machining,better assembly and quality control.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

And just when I put in a good word for Harbor Freight, they turn on
me! I've bought maybe a dozen things from them in the last several
years and was always satisfied. For the price, what you got was
usable and a good deal. I especially agreed with the person who said
they were good for the type of tool you might need once in a blue
moon, so you didn't have to have top quality, just something that
functions for very light use, once every few years.

So, my Honda Harmony mower transmission craps out. To take it apart,
I needed slip ring pliers of two different sizes. It looks like you
could spend over $100 for a set of Snap-On, or $30-45 for even a mid-
range set. HF has a store near me, so I looked online and they had a
set listed.

Went down yesterday and for $7 I got a set of 5 small ones. Now, for
the very low price, I'm not expecting anything great. By that, I mean
they don't have to have nice comfy handles. The tips don't have to be
machined to the finest tolerance. I don't need a chrome finish. And
they don't have to last a long time. But, I would expect them to be
USABLE for the intended purpose. If they worked for this one job,
for the price, I'd be very happy, as it will likely be a long time
before I need to use a pair again.

When I tried to use them, the little tips, .047", instead of being
hardened steel, just start to bend when you use them to open the slip
rings. On the second slip ring, they started slipping out of the
ring because one tip was clearly bent. I used a pair of pliers to
straighten it and finally got that ring off. OF course you know where
we going. After straightening it twice, on the third ring the little
tip broke off. Fortunately the set included a 45deg version of the
same size, so I managed to get them all off. Not sure if they'll last
to get them back on.

So, this is the first example of something I would say really is
garbage. There is some minimal level of functionality one expects in
a product. And if they can't make something that is suitable for even
very minimal use, then they shouldn't sell it regardless of the price.

My experience was with the Pittsburgh flare nut wrenches.
Oversized, and rounded the flare nuts. Oh, well. What to do?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

wrote in message
oups.com...

: I needed slip ring pliers of two different sizes. It looks
like you
:
: Went down yesterday and for $7 I got a set of 5 small ones.
Now, for
:
: When I tried to use them, the little tips, .047", instead of
being
: hardened steel, just start to bend when you use them to open
the slip
: rings. On the second slip ring, they started slipping out of
the
: ring because one tip was clearly bent. I used a pair of
pliers to
: straighten it and finally got that ring off. OF course you
know where
: we going. After straightening it twice, on the third ring the
little
: tip broke off.
:
: So, this is the first example of something I would say really
is
: garbage. There is some minimal level of functionality one
expects in
: a product. And if they can't make something that is suitable
for even
: very minimal use, then they shouldn't sell it regardless of the
price.
:

On Aug 11, 5:49 am, wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:17 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:





"Keith Stelter" wrote m:

With so much stuff being made in China and India these days, The
Harbor Freight situation is kind of like the Family Dollar situation.
You can buy name brand athletic shoes for $100.00 at a sporting goods
store, or you can buy a nearly identical shoe made in the same factory
by the same people at Family Dollar for $10.00. You just aren't paying
for the name. Most of the tool companies who used to make quality
tools are having their stuff made in China now, so the impact wrench
that you get with a "Pittsburgh Tools" sticker on it at HF is the same
as the Rockwell or Ingersoll one that costs 3 times more. I own a
machine shop so I HATE that everything is going overseas, but at least
Harbor Freight is selling the imported stuff at a reasonable price
without trying to portray it as high quality by selling it under a
well known brand name.

A large part of the price difference is due to far less parts and service
support on the cheap stuff.Then,better tools have better
materials,tolerances,finer machining,better assembly and quality control.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

And just when I put in a good word for Harbor Freight, they turn on
me! I've bought maybe a dozen things from them in the last several
years and was always satisfied. For the price, what you got was
usable and a good deal. I especially agreed with the person who said
they were good for the type of tool you might need once in a blue
moon, so you didn't have to have top quality, just something that
functions for very light use, once every few years.

So, my Honda Harmony mower transmission craps out. To take it apart,
I needed slip ring pliers of two different sizes. It looks like you
could spend over $100 for a set of Snap-On, or $30-45 for even a mid-
range set. HF has a store near me, so I looked online and they had a
set listed.

Went down yesterday and for $7 I got a set of 5 small ones. Now, for
the very low price, I'm not expecting anything great. By that, I mean
they don't have to have nice comfy handles. The tips don't have to be
machined to the finest tolerance. I don't need a chrome finish. And
they don't have to last a long time. But, I would expect them to be
USABLE for the intended purpose. If they worked for this one job,
for the price, I'd be very happy, as it will likely be a long time
before I need to use a pair again.

When I tried to use them, the little tips, .047", instead of being
hardened steel, just start to bend when you use them to open the slip
rings. On the second slip ring, they started slipping out of the
ring because one tip was clearly bent. I used a pair of pliers to
straighten it and finally got that ring off. OF course you know where
we going. After straightening it twice, on the third ring the little
tip broke off. Fortunately the set included a 45deg version of the
same size, so I managed to get them all off. Not sure if they'll last
to get them back on.

So, this is the first example of something I would say really is
garbage. There is some minimal level of functionality one expects in
a product. And if they can't make something that is suitable for even
very minimal use, then they shouldn't sell it regardless of the price.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not too much information on this ............... but in some
countries they have what might best be called "Fitness for use"
legislation. In other words a product should not just work it should
also perform for a reasonable length of time.
So if your fridge conks out after less than a couple of years, say, or
your sewing machine jams, or the bristles fall out of a toothbrush, or
auto tyres fly apart in less than a few months, they do not meet the
"The fitness for use" requirement and the manufacturer/supplier must
replace or reimburse.
This is not to say that a fridge should be expected to last 35 years,
a sewing machine to not show some wear an tear after say ten years,
etc. etc. Although our fidge is at least 20 years old, our dryer is
45, and we probably all know of 100 year old treadle sewing machines
eh?
maybe we need that kind of legislation in relation to other than food
in North America?

"terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 11, 5:49 am, wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:17 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:





"Keith Stelter" wrote
m:

With so much stuff being made in China and India these days, The
Harbor Freight situation is kind of like the Family Dollar situation.
You can buy name brand athletic shoes for $100.00 at a sporting goods
store, or you can buy a nearly identical shoe made in the same
factory
by the same people at Family Dollar for $10.00. You just aren't
paying
for the name. Most of the tool companies who used to make quality
tools are having their stuff made in China now, so the impact wrench
that you get with a "Pittsburgh Tools" sticker on it at HF is the
same
as the Rockwell or Ingersoll one that costs 3 times more. I own a
machine shop so I HATE that everything is going overseas, but at
least
Harbor Freight is selling the imported stuff at a reasonable price
without trying to portray it as high quality by selling it under a
well known brand name.

A large part of the price difference is due to far less parts and
service
support on the cheap stuff.Then,better tools have better
materials,tolerances,finer machining,better assembly and quality
control.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

And just when I put in a good word for Harbor Freight, they turn on
me! I've bought maybe a dozen things from them in the last several
years and was always satisfied. For the price, what you got was
usable and a good deal. I especially agreed with the person who said
they were good for the type of tool you might need once in a blue
moon, so you didn't have to have top quality, just something that
functions for very light use, once every few years.

So, my Honda Harmony mower transmission craps out. To take it apart,
I needed slip ring pliers of two different sizes. It looks like you
could spend over $100 for a set of Snap-On, or $30-45 for even a mid-
range set. HF has a store near me, so I looked online and they had a
set listed.

Went down yesterday and for $7 I got a set of 5 small ones. Now, for
the very low price, I'm not expecting anything great. By that, I mean
they don't have to have nice comfy handles. The tips don't have to be
machined to the finest tolerance. I don't need a chrome finish. And
they don't have to last a long time. But, I would expect them to be
USABLE for the intended purpose. If they worked for this one job,
for the price, I'd be very happy, as it will likely be a long time
before I need to use a pair again.

When I tried to use them, the little tips, .047", instead of being
hardened steel, just start to bend when you use them to open the slip
rings. On the second slip ring, they started slipping out of the
ring because one tip was clearly bent. I used a pair of pliers to
straighten it and finally got that ring off. OF course you know where
we going. After straightening it twice, on the third ring the little
tip broke off. Fortunately the set included a 45deg version of the
same size, so I managed to get them all off. Not sure if they'll last
to get them back on.

So, this is the first example of something I would say really is
garbage. There is some minimal level of functionality one expects in
a product. And if they can't make something that is suitable for even
very minimal use, then they shouldn't sell it regardless of the price.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not too much information on this ............... but in some
countries they have what might best be called "Fitness for use"
legislation. In other words a product should not just work it should
also perform for a reasonable length of time.
So if your fridge conks out after less than a couple of years, say, or
your sewing machine jams, or the bristles fall out of a toothbrush, or
auto tyres fly apart in less than a few months, they do not meet the
"The fitness for use" requirement and the manufacturer/supplier must
replace or reimburse.
This is not to say that a fridge should be expected to last 35 years,
a sewing machine to not show some wear an tear after say ten years,
etc. etc. Although our fidge is at least 20 years old, our dryer is
45, and we probably all know of 100 year old treadle sewing machines
eh?
maybe we need that kind of legislation in relation to other than food
in North America?


I disagree.
I own a machine shop, and we make industrial valves that are shipped all
over the world. Because of some crazy "Fit for use" claims by customers in
our industry (not against us thank God), we have to mark our prices WAY up
when we ship to countries that have Fit for Use laws because of additional
mandatory insurance coverage and higher interest rates on loans if the
materials are going to one of those countries. It's like any lawsuit
situation. It doesn't matter if the customer SHOULD KNOW that MacDonald's
coffee is hot. If he pours it on his balls and sues them, they still have to
spend money to defend themselves!
Even if the tool doesn't have a guarantee, take it back to the store next
time you are in the area. Ask for the store manager and politely explain how
bad it is and how it failed. If they hear it from enough people the word
will get back to the boys upstairs. OR he might just say "what do ya want
for $7.00?".

On Aug 11, 9:29 am, "Keith Stelter" wrote:
"terry" wrote in message

oups.com...





On Aug 11, 5:49 am, wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:17 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:

"Keith Stelter" wrote
m:

With so much stuff being made in China and India these days, The
Harbor Freight situation is kind of like the Family Dollar situation.
You can buy name brand athletic shoes for $100.00 at a sporting goods
store, or you can buy a nearly identical shoe made in the same
factory
by the same people at Family Dollar for $10.00. You just aren't
paying
for the name. Most of the tool companies who used to make quality
tools are having their stuff made in China now, so the impact wrench
that you get with a "Pittsburgh Tools" sticker on it at HF is the
same
as the Rockwell or Ingersoll one that costs 3 times more. I own a
machine shop so I HATE that everything is going overseas, but at
least
Harbor Freight is selling the imported stuff at a reasonable price
without trying to portray it as high quality by selling it under a
well known brand name.

A large part of the price difference is due to far less parts and
service
support on the cheap stuff.Then,better tools have better
materials,tolerances,finer machining,better assembly and quality
control.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

And just when I put in a good word for Harbor Freight, they turn on
me! I've bought maybe a dozen things from them in the last several
years and was always satisfied. For the price, what you got was
usable and a good deal. I especially agreed with the person who said
they were good for the type of tool you might need once in a blue
moon, so you didn't have to have top quality, just something that
functions for very light use, once every few years.

So, my Honda Harmony mower transmission craps out. To take it apart,
I needed slip ring pliers of two different sizes. It looks like you
could spend over $100 for a set of Snap-On, or $30-45 for even a mid-
range set. HF has a store near me, so I looked online and they had a
set listed.

Went down yesterday and for $7 I got a set of 5 small ones. Now, for
the very low price, I'm not expecting anything great. By that, I mean
they don't have to have nice comfy handles. The tips don't have to be
machined to the finest tolerance. I don't need a chrome finish. And
they don't have to last a long time. But, I would expect them to be
USABLE for the intended purpose. If they worked for this one job,
for the price, I'd be very happy, as it will likely be a long time
before I need to use a pair again.

When I tried to use them, the little tips, .047", instead of being
hardened steel, just start to bend when you use them to open the slip
rings. On the second slip ring, they started slipping out of the
ring because one tip was clearly bent. I used a pair of pliers to
straighten it and finally got that ring off. OF course you know where
we going. After straightening it twice, on the third ring the little
tip broke off. Fortunately the set included a 45deg version of the
same size, so I managed to get them all off. Not sure if they'll last
to get them back on.

So, this is the first example of something I would say really is
garbage. There is some minimal level of functionality one expects in
a product. And if they can't make something that is suitable for even
very minimal use, then they shouldn't sell it regardless of the price.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not too much information on this ............... but in some
countries they have what might best be called "Fitness for use"
legislation. In other words a product should not just work it should
also perform for a reasonable length of time.
So if your fridge conks out after less than a couple of years, say, or
your sewing machine jams, or the bristles fall out of a toothbrush, or
auto tyres fly apart in less than a few months, they do not meet the
"The fitness for use" requirement and the manufacturer/supplier must
replace or reimburse.
This is not to say that a fridge should be expected to last 35 years,
a sewing machine to not show some wear an tear after say ten years,
etc. etc. Although our fidge is at least 20 years old, our dryer is
45, and we probably all know of 100 year old treadle sewing machines
eh?
maybe we need that kind of legislation in relation to other than food
in North America?

I disagree.
I own a machine shop, and we make industrial valves that are shipped all
over the world. Because of some crazy "Fit for use" claims by customers in
our industry (not against us thank God), we have to mark our prices WAY up
when we ship to countries that have Fit for Use laws because of additional
mandatory insurance coverage and higher interest rates on loans if the
materials are going to one of those countries. It's like any lawsuit
situation. It doesn't matter if the customer SHOULD KNOW that MacDonald's
coffee is hot. If he pours it on his balls and sues them, they still have to
spend money to defend themselves!
Even if the tool doesn't have a guarantee, take it back to the store next
time you are in the area. Ask for the store manager and politely explain how
bad it is and how it failed. If they hear it from enough people the word
will get back to the boys upstairs. OR he might just say "what do ya want
for $7.00?".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not sure exactly what the legislation in those other countries spells
out. But here in the USA under existing law there is the concept of
"warranty of merchantibility", which has been around for a long time,
perhaps hundreds of years and is applied in civil cases all the time.
It means that if you sell a product, it has to be reasonably fit for
the purpose intended. For example, if a store sold you a brand new
chair and it broke apart the first time a 150lb person sat in it, that
would not meet the warranty of merchantibility and you would win the
case, even if the chair did not have a specific warranty.

And in the case of my pliers, I think it's pretty clear that they fail
that standard. I may tell them those slip ring pliers were crap when
I'm there again and see what they say/do.