As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.

After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.

Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.

I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.

On Mar 21, 3:49 pm, "scidoc" wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.

After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.

Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.

I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.

ADDITIONAL INFO:

WHEN FLUE SWITCH IS SHORTED BURNER LIGHTS.
Now to determine why inducer motor not working, I think.

scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.

After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.

Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.

I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.


When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the
cycle is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects
it having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the
gas. There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on
the right track from my understanding of the sequence.

Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.

"Ken" wrote in message
...
scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.

After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.

Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.

I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.


When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.

Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.
My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.

On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message

...

scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.

After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.

Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.

I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.

When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.

Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.

My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.

THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.

QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.

2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF
SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.

3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???

On 21 Mar 2007 22:23:35 -0700, "scidoc" wrote:

On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message

...

scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.

This all worries me too. I get a lot more upset when someone I hire
messes up than when I mess up myself. And I'm getting lazy too.

This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.

After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.

Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.

I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.

When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.

Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.

My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.

THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.

QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.

2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF

I have no idea if it is 110 or not, but if there is no transformer to
lower the 110, probably is. If there is a transformer, you can
probably find two points near the relay to measure if it 110. If you
can't merely replacing the relay likely won't work.

SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.

3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???

Not counting the obvious, single pole/double pole/etc, not big enough,
yes.

Again, I haven't seen what heater boards are like in the last 20
years, if they are still single layer or multiple layer. Mulitple
layer could be very hard, but on single layer, if your relay won't fit
in the space, you can run wires from all the pin mounting points and
put the actual relay anywhere you want.

scidoc wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message

...

scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.
After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.
Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.
I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.
When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.
Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.
My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.

THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.

QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.

In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the
lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES.




2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF
SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.

Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the
voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is
probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and
understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a
DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the
operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is
called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied,
then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem.


3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???


You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to
conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect
and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the
relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should
you seek a relay.

To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be
repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most
manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available
parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products.

On Mar 22, 4:55 am, Ken wrote:
scidoc wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message

...

scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.
After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.
Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.
I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.
When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.
Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.
My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.

THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.

QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.

In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the
lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES.



2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF
SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.

Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the
voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is
probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and
understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a
DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the
operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is
called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied,
then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem.



3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???

You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to
conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect
and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the
relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should
you seek a relay.

To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be
repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most
manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available
parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products.

OK; BEERS FOR ALL!

TAPPED THE RELAY AND A SMALL SPARK WAS VISIBLE AND THE FAN MOVED FOR
200 MSEC.
REMOVED THE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD AND LO AND BEHOLD; A COLD SOLDER
JOINT
UNDER THE 110 SIDE OF THE RELAY. SOLDERED PIN, REINSTALLED BOARD.
ALL IS WORKING. THERE IS STILL HOPE FOR US SELF REPAIR GUYS IN THIS
WORLD.

THE MOTOR IS 110. THAT PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED TO WHY THE SOLDER JOINT
CRACKED.

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND SUPPORT.

LET THERE BE HEAT!

On Mar 22, 2:20 pm, "scidoc" wrote:
On Mar 22, 4:55 am, Ken wrote:



scidoc wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message

...

scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.
After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.
Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.
I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.
When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.
Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.
My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.

THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.

QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.

In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the
lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES.

2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF
SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.

Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the
voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is
probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and
understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a
DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the
operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is
called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied,
then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem.

3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???

You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to
conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect
and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the
relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should
you seek a relay.

To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be
repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most
manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available
parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products.

OK; BEERS FOR ALL!

TAPPED THE RELAY AND A SMALL SPARK WAS VISIBLE AND THE FAN MOVED FOR
200 MSEC.
REMOVED THE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD AND LO AND BEHOLD; A COLD SOLDER
JOINT
UNDER THE 110 SIDE OF THE RELAY. SOLDERED PIN, REINSTALLED BOARD.
ALL IS WORKING. THERE IS STILL HOPE FOR US SELF REPAIR GUYS IN THIS
WORLD.

THE MOTOR IS 110. THAT PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED TO WHY THE SOLDER JOINT
CRACKED.

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND SUPPORT.

LET THERE BE HEAT!

************************************************** ************************************************** ****************

NOW THE HEATING GUY WANTS TO CHARGE $500 FOR REPLACING THE GAS VALVE
AND
NOT FIXING THE FURNACE. 2 DIFFERENT TECHS CAME OUT. WAS TOO ANGRY TO
TALK TO THE
OWNER WHEN HE CALLED LAST WEEK. NOW I HAVE CALMED DOWN A BIT.

ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS GUY WOULD BE APPRECIATED? THE NEW
GAS VALVE IS IN,
THE OLD GAS VALVE HAS A GOOD SOLENOID.

scidoc wrote:
On Mar 22, 2:20 pm, "scidoc" wrote:
On Mar 22, 4:55 am, Ken wrote:



scidoc wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message
...
scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.
After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.
Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.
I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.
When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.
Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.
My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.
THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.
QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.
In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the
lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES.
2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF
SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.
Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the
voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is
probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and
understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a
DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the
operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is
called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied,
then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem.
3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???
You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to
conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect
and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the
relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should
you seek a relay.
To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be
repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most
manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available
parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products.
OK; BEERS FOR ALL!

TAPPED THE RELAY AND A SMALL SPARK WAS VISIBLE AND THE FAN MOVED FOR
200 MSEC.
REMOVED THE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD AND LO AND BEHOLD; A COLD SOLDER
JOINT
UNDER THE 110 SIDE OF THE RELAY. SOLDERED PIN, REINSTALLED BOARD.
ALL IS WORKING. THERE IS STILL HOPE FOR US SELF REPAIR GUYS IN THIS
WORLD.

THE MOTOR IS 110. THAT PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED TO WHY THE SOLDER JOINT
CRACKED.

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND SUPPORT.

LET THERE BE HEAT!

************************************************** ************************************************** ****************

NOW THE HEATING GUY WANTS TO CHARGE $500 FOR REPLACING THE GAS VALVE
AND
NOT FIXING THE FURNACE. 2 DIFFERENT TECHS CAME OUT. WAS TOO ANGRY TO
TALK TO THE
OWNER WHEN HE CALLED LAST WEEK. NOW I HAVE CALMED DOWN A BIT.

ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS GUY WOULD BE APPRECIATED? THE NEW
GAS VALVE IS IN,
THE OLD GAS VALVE HAS A GOOD SOLENOID.


If it were me, I would offer him something like half of what he wants.
Tell him if he does not take it, remove and replace the old units and
you will report the incident to the BBB and whatever organization that
licenses his company. There are surely good people out there, but too
many are crooks counting on the customer to be dazzled by their BS.
Good luck.

If you would like to see more examples, go to the news group alt.hvac

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:26:40 GMT, Ken wrote:

scidoc wrote:
On Mar 22, 2:20 pm, "scidoc" wrote:
On Mar 22, 4:55 am, Ken wrote:



scidoc wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message
...
scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.
After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.
Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.
I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.
When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.
Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.
My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.
THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.
QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.
In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the
lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES.
2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF
SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.
Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the
voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is
probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and
understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a
DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the
operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is
called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied,
then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem.
3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???
You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to
conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect
and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the
relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should
you seek a relay.
To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be
repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most
manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available
parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products.
OK; BEERS FOR ALL!

TAPPED THE RELAY AND A SMALL SPARK WAS VISIBLE AND THE FAN MOVED FOR
200 MSEC.
REMOVED THE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD AND LO AND BEHOLD; A COLD SOLDER
JOINT
UNDER THE 110 SIDE OF THE RELAY. SOLDERED PIN, REINSTALLED BOARD.
ALL IS WORKING. THERE IS STILL HOPE FOR US SELF REPAIR GUYS IN THIS
WORLD.

THE MOTOR IS 110. THAT PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED TO WHY THE SOLDER JOINT
CRACKED.

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND SUPPORT.

LET THERE BE HEAT!

************************************************** ************************************************** ****************

NOW THE HEATING GUY WANTS TO CHARGE $500 FOR REPLACING THE GAS VALVE
AND
NOT FIXING THE FURNACE. 2 DIFFERENT TECHS CAME OUT. WAS TOO ANGRY TO
TALK TO THE
OWNER WHEN HE CALLED LAST WEEK. NOW I HAVE CALMED DOWN A BIT.

ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS GUY WOULD BE APPRECIATED? THE NEW
GAS VALVE IS IN,
THE OLD GAS VALVE HAS A GOOD SOLENOID.


If it were me, I would offer him something like half of what he wants.
Tell him if he does not take it, remove and replace the old units and
you will report the incident to the BBB and whatever organization that
licenses his company. There are surely good people out there, but too
many are crooks counting on the customer to be dazzled by their BS.
Good luck.

If you would like to see more examples, go to the news group alt.hvac


I've watched this story with interest.
I've had similar problems with many of the "pros" around here.
Just because they are licensed doesn't mean they are competent!

Doug

Doug wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:26:40 GMT, Ken wrote:

scidoc wrote:
On Mar 22, 2:20 pm, "scidoc" wrote:
On Mar 22, 4:55 am, Ken wrote:



scidoc wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message
...
scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat
from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored
let him fix it.
This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF
32CW 183 replaced
unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit
board defective. As I am
an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not
likely. Checked old solenoid
coils have appropriate impedance.
After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace.
Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing
a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace
ignited and functioned normally for about ten days.
Then stopped working.
Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner.
Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan
did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully
opening
goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not
present
due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting
to the pilot flame.
I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given
adequate
schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate
start
sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good
general idea,
and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance
for any help.
When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle
is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it
having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas.
There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the
right track from my understanding of the sequence.
Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep
replacing parts and eventually find a problem.
My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts
until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get.
THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL.
SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE
AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING.
QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME
THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES.
In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the
lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES.
2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF
SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY
TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD.
Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the
voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is
probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and
understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a
DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the
operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is
called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied,
then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem.
3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE
REPLACED
WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK???
You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to
conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect
and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the
relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should
you seek a relay.
To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be
repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most
manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available
parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products.
OK; BEERS FOR ALL!

TAPPED THE RELAY AND A SMALL SPARK WAS VISIBLE AND THE FAN MOVED FOR
200 MSEC.
REMOVED THE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD AND LO AND BEHOLD; A COLD SOLDER
JOINT
UNDER THE 110 SIDE OF THE RELAY. SOLDERED PIN, REINSTALLED BOARD.
ALL IS WORKING. THERE IS STILL HOPE FOR US SELF REPAIR GUYS IN THIS
WORLD.

THE MOTOR IS 110. THAT PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED TO WHY THE SOLDER JOINT
CRACKED.

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND SUPPORT.

LET THERE BE HEAT!
************************************************** ************************************************** ****************

NOW THE HEATING GUY WANTS TO CHARGE $500 FOR REPLACING THE GAS VALVE
AND
NOT FIXING THE FURNACE. 2 DIFFERENT TECHS CAME OUT. WAS TOO ANGRY TO
TALK TO THE
OWNER WHEN HE CALLED LAST WEEK. NOW I HAVE CALMED DOWN A BIT.

ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS GUY WOULD BE APPRECIATED? THE NEW
GAS VALVE IS IN,
THE OLD GAS VALVE HAS A GOOD SOLENOID.

If it were me, I would offer him something like half of what he wants.
Tell him if he does not take it, remove and replace the old units and
you will report the incident to the BBB and whatever organization that
licenses his company. There are surely good people out there, but too
many are crooks counting on the customer to be dazzled by their BS.
Good luck.

If you would like to see more examples, go to the news group alt.hvac


I've watched this story with interest.
I've had similar problems with many of the "pros" around here.
Just because they are licensed doesn't mean they are competent!

Doug



That Doug, is the understatement of the year!!! I have been in my
present home for over 30 years. It was new when I bought it, and less
than two years after I moved in one of the condenser units stopped
running. Since there were stickers applied to the furnace and AC
stating who had installed them and it was so new, I figured I would call
them to fix what I thought was still under warranty.

A "Tech" came to my house and inside of ten minutes diagnosed my
problem as a faulty compressor. Thinking that this would surely still
be covered, I said something like "Go ahead, it won't cost me anything."
To which he informed me that the compressor was covered but the labor
was NOT. That labor would be $600.

Having a background in electronics and also being nosy, I watched him
"Diagnose" the problem. He never once took out a meter to see if the
contactor was being activated by the thermostat, nor if it even had
power going to any of the components. I watched in disbelief not saying
a word because I wanted to see whether they were honest or not. I saw
all I needed to see and told the "Tech" I would contact him when I
decided what I wanted to do. After he left I took out my meter and
inside of five minutes determined there was no 24v AC at the coil for
the contactor. Looking at the wires going to it I saw they were spliced
(perhaps I should say wrapped) and covered with electrical tape.
Opening the tape showed oxidation and a poor connection. Once soldered
and taped the unit ran fine. I might also say it ran fine for another
30+ years!!!!!!!!

Now I am not a HVAC person, nor have I been trained in the trade.
There is much I cannot and will not attempt. There are however many
simple tasks that a person with very little skill can attempt without
jeopardizing the safety of their family. When in doubt, DON'T. It is a
shame that so many of those in the trade are either incompetent or
dishonest. I would be very upset if their acts tainted my trade and I
were one of the honest ones.