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#1
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating
Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. |
#2
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
On Mar 21, 3:49 pm, "scidoc" wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. ADDITIONAL INFO: WHEN FLUE SWITCH IS SHORTED BURNER LIGHTS. Now to determine why inducer motor not working, I think. |
#3
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
scidoc wrote:
As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas. There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the right track from my understanding of the sequence. Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep replacing parts and eventually find a problem. |
#4
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
"Ken" wrote in message ... scidoc wrote: As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas. There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the right track from my understanding of the sequence. Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep replacing parts and eventually find a problem. My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get. |
#5
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Ken" wrote in message ... scidoc wrote: As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas. There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the right track from my understanding of the sequence. Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep replacing parts and eventually find a problem. My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get. THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL. SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING. QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES. 2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD. 3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE REPLACED WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK??? |
#6
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
On 21 Mar 2007 22:23:35 -0700, "scidoc" wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote: "Ken" wrote in message ... scidoc wrote: As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This all worries me too. I get a lot more upset when someone I hire messes up than when I mess up myself. And I'm getting lazy too. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas. There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the right track from my understanding of the sequence. Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep replacing parts and eventually find a problem. My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get. THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL. SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING. QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES. 2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF I have no idea if it is 110 or not, but if there is no transformer to lower the 110, probably is. If there is a transformer, you can probably find two points near the relay to measure if it 110. If you can't merely replacing the relay likely won't work. SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD. 3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE REPLACED WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK??? Not counting the obvious, single pole/double pole/etc, not big enough, yes. Again, I haven't seen what heater boards are like in the last 20 years, if they are still single layer or multiple layer. Mulitple layer could be very hard, but on single layer, if your relay won't fit in the space, you can run wires from all the pin mounting points and put the actual relay anywhere you want. |
#7
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
scidoc wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote: "Ken" wrote in message ... scidoc wrote: As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas. There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the right track from my understanding of the sequence. Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep replacing parts and eventually find a problem. My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get. THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL. SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING. QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES. In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES. 2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD. Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied, then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem. 3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE REPLACED WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK??? You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should you seek a relay. To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products. |
#8
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GAS VALVE ON HEATER DOES NOT OPEN
On Mar 22, 4:55 am, Ken wrote:
scidoc wrote: On Mar 21, 8:30 pm, "Toller" wrote: "Ken" wrote in message ... scidoc wrote: As I am getting a little older, I'm getting lazy. Called Heating Repair to assess no heat from a BDP furnace. When told gas valve was defective, wife implored let him fix it. This was after $89 diagnosis fee not applied to $450 for valve. EF 32CW 183 replaced unit not working; now told igniter defective, then printed circuit board defective. As I am an elec engineer, I informed tech that multiple problems were not likely. Checked old solenoid coils have appropriate impedance. After throwing tech out, got off my ass and inspected furnace. Solenoid is clicking but no ignition. Checked wiring and by placing a little pressure on connector to printed circuit board furnace ignited and functioned normally for about ten days. Then stopped working. Inspected again and cleaned connections with switch cleaner. Now, pilot ignites, small fan does not turn (I think this flue fan did before) and after 5 seconds or so instead of gas valve fully opening goes back to clicking solenoid. I think either the flue is not present due to the fan not turning or less likely, the bimetal is not reacting to the pilot flame. I am an experienced hands on engineer who can fix anything, given adequate schematics. I understand safety. Can anyone explain the appropriate start sequence with voltages at appropriate locations? I have a pretty good general idea, and have worked on old furnaces before (my own). Thanks in advance for any help. When the thermostat calls for heat, I believe the first thing in the cycle is the starting of the flu blower/fan. A pressure switch detects it having turned on, and then the ignitor is activated followed by the gas. There are sensors for the gas having been lighted, but you are on the right track from my understanding of the sequence. Sounds like the guy you hired knew less than you do. Anyone can keep replacing parts and eventually find a problem. My father was a radio technician in WWII. He was taught to replace parts until the radio worked. And he was as close to "anyone" as you can get. THANKS FOR THE REPLY. THE MOTOR IMPEDANCE IS NORMAL. SO NOW NEED TO CHECK THE RELAY (SOLENOID) VOLTAGE AND DETERMINE IF IT IS SWITCHING. QUESTION: 1. DOES THE INDUCER RUN CONSTANTLY THE ENTIRE TIME THE FURNACE IS ON? I THINK YES. In order to exhaust the flu fumes, the fan will run prior to the lighting of the burners and continue until the flame goes out. YES. 2. THE VOLTAGE LOOKS LIKE 110 ON THE SCHEMATIC. I AM THINKING OF SUPPLYING 110 TO THE FAN DIRECTLY WITH JUMPERS BYPASSING THE RELAY TO TEST THE MOTOR WITH VOLTAGE. IF IT WORKS THE THE RELAY IS BAD. Looking at the motor faceplate for the inducer should tell you the voltage it operates on. Mine use 110 volt AC and I would GUESS yours is probably the same. It sounds like you are on the right track and understand where to look. Of course the relay is (probably) driven by a DC voltage so the problem could be further back. Establish the operating voltage of the motor, and measure what is applied when heat is called for by the thermostat. If it is 110v and it is being applied, then the motor or a motor start cap is your problem. 3. SINCE THE RELAY IS SEALED ON A PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, CAN IT BE REPLACED WITHOUT REPLACING THE BOARD? ANY 110 V RELAY SHOULD WORK??? You sound like you know more than the guy you hired, but do NOT jump to conclusions in trouble shooting a circuit. Establish what is incorrect and back up until you find what is not functioning as it should. If the relay is failing to latch and all voltages are there, only then should you seek a relay. To answer your question regarding the relay: Anything can be repaired if you can acquire the correct tools and parts. Most manufacturers do not "Re-invent the wheel," and use readily available parts. Some however do in order to force your purchase of their products. OK; BEERS FOR ALL! TAPPED THE RELAY AND A SMALL SPARK WAS VISIBLE AND THE FAN MOVED FOR 200 MSEC. REMOVED THE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD AND LO AND BEHOLD; A COLD SOLDER JOINT UNDER THE 110 SIDE OF THE RELAY. SOLDERED PIN, REINSTALLED BOARD. ALL IS WORKING. THERE IS STILL HOPE FOR US SELF REPAIR GUYS IN THIS WORLD. THE MOTOR IS 110. THAT PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED TO WHY THE SOLDER JOINT CRACKED. THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND SUPPORT. LET THERE BE HEAT! |
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