We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?

Thanks

On Mar 18, 2:08 pm, blueman wrote:
We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?

That's likely the case.

Painters _rarely_ hit the top and bottom of a door. No one sees the
top and bottom of a door anyway, right?
Doors should be sealed on all six faces to minimize the effects of
changes in humidity. Always. If the door binds and someone trims it
with a plane, it has to be resealed.

R

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:08:34 GMT, blueman wrote:

We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

If the door is properly built -- I'm sure it was -- there is adequate
space for the panels to expand. Sometimes people naively glue panels
into place, and this can cause big problems.

IIUC painting and varnishing of panel door should be done lightly at
the places where the panels meet the doors. So one won't see a ridge
when the panel shrinks.

As to sealing the door, shouldn't that be done when the humidity is
intermediate for the location of the door? Does that make a
difference?

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?

Thanks

Or just stop raiding the refrigerator, or expect to be heard, until
the linoleum does wear out.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:08:34 GMT, blueman wrote:

We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

If the door is properly built -- I'm sure it was -- there is adequate
space for the panels to expand. Sometimes people naively glue panels
into place, and this can cause big problems.

If the joinery is 125yrs old it is built well enough.

IIUC painting and varnishing of panel door should be done lightly at
the places where the panels meet the doors. So one won't see a ridge
when the panel shrinks.

As to sealing the door, shouldn't that be done when the humidity is
intermediate for the location of the door? Does that make a
difference?

Never heard of either of those suggestions. Whatever you use to 'seal' a
piece of wood it will never prevent gradual changes in moisture content.

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?

I don't really understand how a panel can be 'cupping', but the best thing
to do is just leave it be, it's an old door in an old house. I don't know
what the climate is like where you are but I have seen a lot of old joinery
which doesn't really fit well and isn't too straight but it is important to
leave and preserve these things and not do unecessary renovation. In my part
of the world a lot of old doors have not fitted too well since the owners
installed heating and damp proofed the walls of buildings which had been
generally cold damp and draughty for hundreds of years.

Tim W

"blueman" wrote in message
...
We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?


Driest time inside, wettest out. Sounds like a recipe for adjustment.
Solid wood will move. Unless you have intrusion problems with the March
winds, wait it out.

blueman wrote:
We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?

Thanks

Any chance you've got a roof or plumbing leak?

Bill


--
I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject
is worth (much) unless backed up with enough genuine information to make
him really know what he's talking about.

H. P. Lovecraft

http://nmwoodworks.com


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"Tim W" writes:

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:08:34 GMT, blueman wrote:

We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

If the door is properly built -- I'm sure it was -- there is adequate
space for the panels to expand. Sometimes people naively glue panels
into place, and this can cause big problems.

If the joinery is 125yrs old it is built well enough.
I'm sure it is. The panels are floating.


IIUC painting and varnishing of panel door should be done lightly at
the places where the panels meet the doors. So one won't see a ridge
when the panel shrinks.

As to sealing the door, shouldn't that be done when the humidity is
intermediate for the location of the door? Does that make a
difference?

Never heard of either of those suggestions. Whatever you use to 'seal' a
piece of wood it will never prevent gradual changes in moisture content.

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?

I don't really understand how a panel can be 'cupping', but the best thing
to do is just leave it be, it's an old door in an old house.

Cupping in the sense of grain on panels is vertical and the panel is
(cupped or bowed) similar to the way a 1x10 piece of pine would be
said to be cupped.

I'm sure it's nothing since the house is so old, the doors are
varnished (not painted) and the last coat of varnish was at least
10-20 years ago.

The house was of course built before electricy and central heat but
again nothing has changed in the interior environment (as far as the
doors are concerned) in a long time so I am assuming this is just part
of the natural cycle.

My only question remains is what would cause cupping during the "dry"
months (here in New England it is still winter and with forced hot
air, the humidity is very low in the house maybe 20-30%) vs. the
summer when it gets quite humid since we don't (yet) have central air.

I don't know
what the climate is like where you are but I have seen a lot of old joinery
which doesn't really fit well and isn't too straight but it is important to
leave and preserve these things and not do unecessary renovation. In my part
of the world a lot of old doors have not fitted too well since the owners
installed heating and damp proofed the walls of buildings which had been
generally cold damp and draughty for hundreds of years.

Tim W

Bill in Detroit writes:

blueman wrote:
We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.
I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.
Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing
it?
I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?
Thanks

Any chance you've got a roof or plumbing leak?

Nope -- plus this is the first floor of a 3 story home with
basement. Basement is dry and no signs of leaks on any of the
floors...


Bill


--
I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject
is worth (much) unless backed up with enough genuine information to
make him really know what he's talking about.

H. P. Lovecraft

http://nmwoodworks.com


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"George" writes:

"blueman" wrote in message
...
We have 2-over-2 paneled interior doors in our 125 year old Italianate
house. We have only lived in the house for 2 years, but now for the
first time I am noticing that many of the panels are getting severely
cupped.

I am surprised because now the house is at its maximum dryness and I
would have expected more cupping during the summer as the panels
expand against the door frame.

Is it natural to have such cupping and if so what would be causing it?

I assume that since the house is so old and since I didn't notice the
cupping in the summer months that this is just cyclical and will
resolve when the humidity returns, right?


Driest time inside, wettest out. Sounds like a recipe for
adjustment. Solid wood will move. Unless you have intrusion problems
with the March winds, wait it out.

I agree. But again I would have thought such "cupping" would occur
more during the wet months when the panel would be expanding against a
rigid frame.

But perhaps what is really happening is that the panels are quite thin
(I would say 1/4" or less) with dimensions of maybe 36" x 12" from a
single piece of wood (no laminations or joints) so that
perhaps the natural stresses in the thin wood panels lead to such
cupping during the dry months. In fact, several of the panels have
cracks in them which presumably have occured over the past 125 years
or so do to stresses, seasonal changes, abuse???? -- I guess this is
understandable in large thin panels like our doors.

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I agree. But again I would have thought such "cupping" would occur
more during the wet months when the panel would be expanding against a
rigid frame.


Not unless you're air conditioned to dead dry and the outside's in the rain.
Right now my relative humidity is 84% outside (snow, too), and 28% inside.
Don't think it'll ever get that bad with the opposite sides of the panel in
the summer.

But perhaps what is really happening is that the panels are quite thin
(I would say 1/4" or less) with dimensions of maybe 36" x 12" from a
single piece of wood (no laminations or joints) so that
perhaps the natural stresses in the thin wood panels lead to such
cupping during the dry months. In fact, several of the panels have
cracks in them which presumably have occured over the past 125 years
or so do to stresses, seasonal changes, abuse???? -- I guess this is
understandable in large thin panels like our doors.

Got too dry on one side. Weathering? Lots of humidity cycles shouldn't
make cracks, only extremes.

[...snip...]

I agree. But again I would have thought such "cupping" would occur
more during the wet months when the panel would be expanding against a
rigid frame.

[...snip...]

Hmm, if it was just a change in humidity, the panel would expand
equally on both sides, no cupping.

Perhaps you have a difference in the finish on the back side vs. the
front, so the panel moves more on one side than the other. How are
they finished, front and back?

"Jim Weisgram" wrote in message
...
[...snip...]

I agree. But again I would have thought such "cupping" would occur
more during the wet months when the panel would be expanding against a
rigid frame.

[...snip...]

Hmm, if it was just a change in humidity, the panel would expand
equally on both sides, no cupping.

There are, after all, _two_ sides to the panel.

Jim Weisgram wrote in
:

[...snip...]

I agree. But again I would have thought such "cupping" would occur
more during the wet months when the panel would be expanding against a
rigid frame.

[...snip...]

Hmm, if it was just a change in humidity, the panel would expand
equally on both sides, no cupping.

not considering the GRAIN direction of the wood.
Now if the panel was quartersawn,then you would get little or no
cupping.Flatsawn wood will cup because of the curvature of the wood grain.


Perhaps you have a difference in the finish on the back side vs. the
front, so the panel moves more on one side than the other. How are
they finished, front and back?


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Weisgram writes:
[...snip...]

I agree. But again I would have thought such "cupping" would occur
more during the wet months when the panel would be expanding against a
rigid frame.

[...snip...]

Hmm, if it was just a change in humidity, the panel would expand
equally on both sides, no cupping.

Perhaps you have a difference in the finish on the back side vs. the
front, so the panel moves more on one side than the other. How are
they finished, front and back?

Both sides are varnished and I have notices this now on most but not
all of my doors (and again these are all interior doors with not
appreciable difference in atmospher on the two sides). The degree of
cupping varies by panel -- some are quite severe, others are less so.

Again the only thing I keep coming back to is that the panel is a
single large but thin sheet of wood so that it may not take much
"differential" stress to lead to such cupping.

[...snip...]


Again the only thing I keep coming back to is that the panel is a
single large but thin sheet of wood so that it may not take much
"differential" stress to lead to such cupping.

You know, your first statement about these panels implied the cupping
was recent; but if it is just that you are now noticing the cupping,
and it was there all along, then perhaps what you have are panels that
were formed long ago from wood that was not dry enough, or wood that
was reactive enough, to warp after the panels were formed.

Otherwise, it seems odd to have panels decades old all start warping
at the same time.

Regarding your other comment, that these are interior doors and the
panels are all indoors, so why is one side different than the other
.... I may be belaboring the point, but ... say you removed all the
finish from one side, and left all the finish on the other, then you
have a panel that will change humidity quickly on one side, and slowly
on the other, and the shrinkage/expansion on one side could be fast
with little change on the other, and you get a warp when the humidity
changes, and then the warp flattens out as both sides equalize
humidity.