Could use some opinions on this, because I honestly don't know which
way to go here...

The house that I've recently purchased has a solar hot water preheater
feeding a conventional gas water heater. The solar panel portion of
the preheater appears to be in good shape, BUT the install leaves
something to be desired. It's cantilevered off the railing of the deck
behind the house, and it's actually physically pulling the railing
over. I've got it propped up with a 2x6 for now but it will need to be
pulled back into position with a come-along and properly braced at some
point in the future if it is to remain.

Now tonight I was downstairs painting some car parts in the laundry
room and noticed some seepage coming out from below the tank of the
preheater. I removed the insulation blanket from around the tank and
found that apparently the liner has completely failed and the only
thing holding the water back is the metal wall of the tank itself,
which has some pinholes in it. To make matters worse, whoever
installed it did not install the appropriate valves to allow the solar
unit to be bypassed (so that the gas fired heater would be fed directly
from the cold water line.) So I can't shut the thing off without
killing all hot water to the house.

I'm tempted to just call a plumber and have the appropriate valves
installed to bypass it, and leave it bypassed until spring since I'm
thinking it's probably of dubious value in the winter. The question
is, is it really worth it to have the tank replaced, or is the whole
solar thing a bit of misguided ecological wishful thinking on the part
of the house's previous owners?

The tank appears to be a standard electric water heater tank with the
heating elements replaced with copper loops which circulate what I
assume is an antifreeze solution that runs between the tank and the
panel outside. There's a small electric circulation pump on a timer
that runs during daylight hours.

We did get a "home warranty" with the new house but I am wondering if
they will actually cover this unit since it is not the primary hot
water heater. I will find out in the AM, I suppose.

In light of the fact that the tank has failed and the panel is causing
issues that will need to be rectified - what would you do? FWIW the
piping etc. and the panel itself appear to be in good shape. I feel
like I need to do something right away, as it's seeping now and I can't
imagine that it will ever get better, nor even stay the same for long.

thanks,

nate

if this is a device common to your climate, it may be worth replacing
especially if the electric heating of the water is expensive. it's
difficult to get thoughts wrapped around the entire property when it
comes to energy saving, but do all the homework now.


N8N wrote:
Could use some opinions on this, because I honestly don't know which
way to go here...

The house that I've recently purchased has a solar hot water preheater
feeding a conventional gas water heater. The solar panel portion of
the preheater appears to be in good shape, BUT the install leaves
something to be desired. It's cantilevered off the railing of the deck
behind the house, and it's actually physically pulling the railing
over. I've got it propped up with a 2x6 for now but it will need to be
pulled back into position with a come-along and properly braced at some
point in the future if it is to remain.

Now tonight I was downstairs painting some car parts in the laundry
room and noticed some seepage coming out from below the tank of the
preheater. I removed the insulation blanket from around the tank and
found that apparently the liner has completely failed and the only
thing holding the water back is the metal wall of the tank itself,
which has some pinholes in it. To make matters worse, whoever
installed it did not install the appropriate valves to allow the solar
unit to be bypassed (so that the gas fired heater would be fed directly
from the cold water line.) So I can't shut the thing off without
killing all hot water to the house.

I'm tempted to just call a plumber and have the appropriate valves
installed to bypass it, and leave it bypassed until spring since I'm
thinking it's probably of dubious value in the winter. The question
is, is it really worth it to have the tank replaced, or is the whole
solar thing a bit of misguided ecological wishful thinking on the part
of the house's previous owners?

The tank appears to be a standard electric water heater tank with the
heating elements replaced with copper loops which circulate what I
assume is an antifreeze solution that runs between the tank and the
panel outside. There's a small electric circulation pump on a timer
that runs during daylight hours.

We did get a "home warranty" with the new house but I am wondering if
they will actually cover this unit since it is not the primary hot
water heater. I will find out in the AM, I suppose.

In light of the fact that the tank has failed and the panel is causing
issues that will need to be rectified - what would you do? FWIW the
piping etc. and the panel itself appear to be in good shape. I feel
like I need to do something right away, as it's seeping now and I can't
imagine that it will ever get better, nor even stay the same for long.

thanks,

nate

In article .com,
"N8N" wrote:

it's probably of dubious value in the winter.

At this point, it is of NO (read: zero) value NOW and for ANY season. Any
effort made, much less MONEY spent, would be better made/spent having it
REMOVED.

I suspect that the minimum service call charge of an average plumber (not
counting any charge for actual work) would not be paid back by the pre-heater
in 50 years or longer. These systems were near-worthless gimmicks when they
were new and working properly. Good luck.
--

JR

No project too small
All projects too big

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 07:10:04 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

At this point, it is of NO (read: zero) value NOW and for ANY season. Any
effort made, much less MONEY spent, would be better made/spent having it
REMOVED.

I suspect that the minimum service call charge of an average plumber (not
counting any charge for actual work) would not be paid back by the pre-heater
in 50 years or longer. These systems were near-worthless gimmicks when they
were new and working properly. Good luck.

My solar domestic water heating system was installed some 20+ years
ago and has probably paid for itself a couple times over. I have
replaced the storage tank once and one pump has been replaced twice.
An additional benefit over all those years is that I get hotter water
than I would have been inclined to get if I only had the electric HW
heater.

John Keith

N8N wrote:

Could use some opinions on this, because I honestly don't know which
way to go here...

The house that I've recently purchased has a solar hot water preheater
feeding a conventional gas water heater. The solar panel portion of
the preheater appears to be in good shape, BUT the install leaves
something to be desired. It's cantilevered off the railing of the deck
behind the house, and it's actually physically pulling the railing
over. I've got it propped up with a 2x6 for now but it will need to be
pulled back into position with a come-along and properly braced at some
point in the future if it is to remain.

Now tonight I was downstairs painting some car parts in the laundry
room and noticed some seepage coming out from below the tank of the
preheater. I removed the insulation blanket from around the tank and
found that apparently the liner has completely failed and the only
thing holding the water back is the metal wall of the tank itself,
which has some pinholes in it. To make matters worse, whoever
installed it did not install the appropriate valves to allow the solar
unit to be bypassed (so that the gas fired heater would be fed directly
from the cold water line.) So I can't shut the thing off without
killing all hot water to the house.

I'm tempted to just call a plumber and have the appropriate valves
installed to bypass it, and leave it bypassed until spring since I'm
thinking it's probably of dubious value in the winter. The question
is, is it really worth it to have the tank replaced, or is the whole
solar thing a bit of misguided ecological wishful thinking on the part
of the house's previous owners?

The tank appears to be a standard electric water heater tank with the
heating elements replaced with copper loops which circulate what I
assume is an antifreeze solution that runs between the tank and the
panel outside. There's a small electric circulation pump on a timer
that runs during daylight hours.

We did get a "home warranty" with the new house but I am wondering if
they will actually cover this unit since it is not the primary hot
water heater. I will find out in the AM, I suppose.

In light of the fact that the tank has failed and the panel is causing
issues that will need to be rectified - what would you do? FWIW the
piping etc. and the panel itself appear to be in good shape. I feel
like I need to do something right away, as it's seeping now and I can't
imagine that it will ever get better, nor even stay the same for long.

thanks,

nate

Not sure where you are, but in most climates a solar water heater or
preheater will work well and save a lot of gas / electricity for the
regular / backup heater. Just measure the inlet and outlet temperatures
on a halfway decent day to see how much benefit you're getting. Every
degree the solar panel raises the water is a degree the electric or gas
heater doesn't. Here in TX, I've got a few solar plans on the drawing
board.

Check alt.energy.homepower for more expertise on this stuff.

Pete C.

John Keith wrote:

My solar domestic water heating system was installed some 20+ years
ago and has probably paid for itself a couple times over.

Good... a 72/10 = 7.2% tax-free return, using "the rule of 72."

I have replaced the storage tank once and one pump has been replaced twice.

Tank water heaters are cheap, but maybe you're talking about a $1K stone-lined
monstrosity. A draindown system with a horizontal collector over a homebrew
tank with a $60 300'x1" piece of plastic pipe as a heat exchanger seems better.

Nick

In a previous house in Norther California, I had a passive solar
system.
8-9 mo. of the year it was the sole heater, valves made it a pre-heat
system the rest of the year. My dog got warm water baths in the winter!

JR you obviously got burned, but that doesn't make the whole idea bad.

RickR

Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article .com,
"N8N" wrote:

it's probably of dubious value in the winter.

At this point, it is of NO (read: zero) value NOW and for ANY season. Any
effort made, much less MONEY spent, would be better made/spent having it
REMOVED.

I suspect that the minimum service call charge of an average plumber (not
counting any charge for actual work) would not be paid back by the pre-heater
in 50 years or longer. These systems were near-worthless gimmicks when they
were new and working properly. Good luck.
--

JR

No project too small
All projects too big

In article .com,
"RickR" wrote:

JR you obviously got burned

Not I, said the duck. ...at least, not by solar-heated water!

that doesn't make the whole idea bad.

The whole idea? Of course not.

However, I adamantly reject the idea that there are savings sufficient to pay
back the initial cost of the system, not to mention maintenance.

Look at the Subject line above again. The OP's issue with a PRE-heater system
in need of major repair as well as repair of the structural damage done by the
collector makes removal the ONLY choice *IF* saving money is the goal.

One only has to look around - and pay attention - for a short time to see the
idled, abandoned and eventually removed solar systems to figure it out: The
cost savings are NOT there.

Until cold fusion becomes practical; until the price of a hydrogen fuel cell
falls to within reach of other than the hyper-rich; until alternative energy
is available in quantity equaling what we have now in (mean, evil) oil, gas
and coal, I will remain unimpressed with it.

Save energy? Sure. Save the Earth? Whatever. Save money? No way.

Now, if you want to talk geothermal...
--

JR

buffalobill wrote:
if this is a device common to your climate, it may be worth replacing
especially if the electric heating of the water is expensive. it's
difficult to get thoughts wrapped around the entire property when it
comes to energy saving, but do all the homework now.


N8N wrote:
Could use some opinions on this, because I honestly don't know which
way to go here...

The house that I've recently purchased has a solar hot water preheater
feeding a conventional gas water heater. The solar panel portion of
....

I keep all my utility payments in a spreadsheet. I have about 15+ years
of monthly numbers. It is easy to see how there are two components of
natural gas payments: the constant, seasonless cooking, hot water,
drier, clocks and computers. Then there is the big heating expense
which varies dramatically with the season.

During the Summer months, my usage will be under 25 cu-ft ($30).
However, a good, cold January will see 250+ cu-ft used.

So, a solar water heater might be able to eliminate the 25 cu-ft ($30)
constant use, but won't make a dent in the heating cost.

If you can install a solar (pre) heater for $360 per year you'll be
ahead. I've known several people who have done this but were
disappointed when various plastic and rubber parts yielded to the
sunlight, making for expensive repairs. The bottom line is solar
heaters are poor investments.

Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article .com,
"RickR" wrote:

JR you obviously got burned

Not I, said the duck. ...at least, not by solar-heated water!

that doesn't make the whole idea bad.

The whole idea? Of course not.

However, I adamantly reject the idea that there are savings sufficient to pay
back the initial cost of the system, not to mention maintenance.

Look at the Subject line above again. The OP's issue with a PRE-heater system
in need of major repair as well as repair of the structural damage done by the
collector makes removal the ONLY choice *IF* saving money is the goal.

One only has to look around - and pay attention - for a short time to see the
idled, abandoned and eventually removed solar systems to figure it out: The
cost savings are NOT there.

Until cold fusion becomes practical; until the price of a hydrogen fuel cell
falls to within reach of other than the hyper-rich; until alternative energy
is available in quantity equaling what we have now in (mean, evil) oil, gas
and coal, I will remain unimpressed with it.

Save energy? Sure. Save the Earth? Whatever. Save money? No way.

Now, if you want to talk geothermal...
--

JR

Those abandoned / removed solar systems you reference are almost all
ones from the '70s and the earliest experiments with the technology.
Rather like the first automobiles, you don't see many in use today
because the technology has improved greatly and today's models are
vastly more reliable and efficient.

Pete C.

I suspect that the minimum service call charge of an average plumber (not
counting any charge for actual work) would not be paid back by the pre-heater
in 50 years or longer. These systems were near-worthless gimmicks when they
were new and working properly. Good luck.


The above statement (converning the system (not the cost of a
plumber) is completely false...

In my previous home I had a solar hot water "set-up" preheated my
ground water ...saved at least 30 bucks a month ...completely
eliminated the cost of operating my swimmimg pool and Hot tub..which I
ran 24/7 (pool summer only) ... Installation was completey free
after various grants, tax breaks etc.. No lose situation...

Now repairs, etc could have been a horse of another color I will
admit.. just never needed any in the 10 years or so I had that house..

Bob G.