I live in St Louis and just got power back after losing it for four days for the
second time in one year.

The first time was in the summer and was merely inconvenient. This time I had
to have a way to keep the furnace running. I first borrowed a generator
(3550w), but I started feeling bad about putting so many hours on someone else's
unit and figured it was time I had my own so I went out and bought a Coleman
5000w with the Suzuki 10hp engine.

Problem (with both but more so with the new one) is that generator power is not
clean enough for my new-fangled electronically controlled furnace (Trane hv-80).
With the borrowed unit the board kept flashing an error code that basically
indicated to replace the controller board. Fiddling around with it for a while
and I was able to get it running. With the new one the glow igniter comes on
and apparently causes enough of a voltage fluctuation to disrupt the controller
board and I get a "check igniter" error code.

Do other people have these problems? Between the midwest and the gulf coast we
certainly have plenty of people who occasionally have to run on generators and
electronically controlled furnaces are pretty much the norm now. Is my Trane
just being particularly fussy? Everything else we powered off the generators
ran great.

Of course the "cover our ass" page of the generator manual suggests getting a
line conditioner for just about anything that's not a light bulb. Do I really
have to drop a few hundred more dollars on one of those just to get my furnace
to run?

By the way, what convinced me that this was the problem was that the furnace
fired right up when I temporarily ran it thought my computer UPS. The UPS alarm
squalled like hell because it wasn't big enough, but the voltage as measured
with my voltmeter held much better and the furnace lit up. It would be nice if
I could isolate the power to run the controller board from those that pull major
amps so I could just get a conditioner for that, but it looks like everything
hooks straight to the board so I don't know if that can be done.

Naturally, four hours after I got the new generator running the utility company
got our power back up. I would still like to get a handle on this before the
next time.

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:43:05 GMT, "Rick Brandt"
wrote:

Naturally, four hours after I got the new generator running the utility company
got our power back up. I would still like to get a handle on this before the
next time.

Of course.

What you need to do now is spend more money on a line
conditioner. This will guarantee that your power never goes out
again.

It's the law. Murphy's law.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

"Bubba" wrote in message
...
It could have been something as simple as the generator/s weren't
grounded properly. The new stuff with circuit boards are very finicky
when it comes to a good ground.
Bubba

Are you just talking about earth ground (rod) or does it need to be grounded to
the safety ground in the house?

I second that opinion. I live in an area of the U.S. which had an extended
power outage affecting several hundred thousand homes earlier this year, and
our climate is, like many cities in the Northeast, very cold in the winter.
Many homes with high efficiency newer furnaces had generator
incompatibilities, but inadequate generator grounding was an extremely
common problem which caused many furnaces not to work properly.

It is not surprising that permanently installed generators like my Generac
Guardian require an 8 foot long solid copper 5/8th inch diameter rod to be
driven into the ground and bonded electrically immediately next to the
generator.

Smarty


"Bubba" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:43:05 GMT, "Rick Brandt"
wrote:

I live in St Louis and just got power back after losing it for four days
for the
second time in one year.

The first time was in the summer and was merely inconvenient. This time I
had
to have a way to keep the furnace running. I first borrowed a generator
(3550w), but I started feeling bad about putting so many hours on someone
else's
unit and figured it was time I had my own so I went out and bought a
Coleman
5000w with the Suzuki 10hp engine.

Problem (with both but more so with the new one) is that generator power
is not
clean enough for my new-fangled electronically controlled furnace (Trane
hv-80).
With the borrowed unit the board kept flashing an error code that
basically
indicated to replace the controller board. Fiddling around with it for a
while
and I was able to get it running. With the new one the glow igniter comes
on
and apparently causes enough of a voltage fluctuation to disrupt the
controller
board and I get a "check igniter" error code.

Do other people have these problems? Between the midwest and the gulf
coast we
certainly have plenty of people who occasionally have to run on generators
and
electronically controlled furnaces are pretty much the norm now. Is my
Trane
just being particularly fussy? Everything else we powered off the
generators
ran great.

Of course the "cover our ass" page of the generator manual suggests
getting a
line conditioner for just about anything that's not a light bulb. Do I
really
have to drop a few hundred more dollars on one of those just to get my
furnace
to run?

By the way, what convinced me that this was the problem was that the
furnace
fired right up when I temporarily ran it thought my computer UPS. The UPS
alarm
squalled like hell because it wasn't big enough, but the voltage as
measured
with my voltmeter held much better and the furnace lit up. It would be
nice if
I could isolate the power to run the controller board from those that pull
major
amps so I could just get a conditioner for that, but it looks like
everything
hooks straight to the board so I don't know if that can be done.

Naturally, four hours after I got the new generator running the utility
company
got our power back up. I would still like to get a handle on this before
the
next time.







It could have been something as simple as the generator/s weren't
grounded properly. The new stuff with circuit boards are very finicky
when it comes to a good ground.
Bubba

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
I second that opinion. I live in an area of the U.S. which had an extended
power outage affecting several hundred thousand homes earlier this year, and
our climate is, like many cities in the Northeast, very cold in the winter.
Many homes with high efficiency newer furnaces had generator incompatibilities,
but inadequate generator grounding was an extremely common problem which caused
many furnaces not to work properly.

It is not surprising that permanently installed generators like my Generac
Guardian require an 8 foot long solid copper 5/8th inch diameter rod to be
driven into the ground and bonded electrically immediately next to the
generator.

Well that's good to hear. The next time (knock wood) I'll hopefully have fewer
problems. That'll be Murphy at work of course. Ameren claims these are the two
worst storms in their history as far as customers losing power and they happened
just a few months apart. Now that I'm prepared a little better my generator
will likely just gather dust.

Rick Brandt wrote:

I live in St Louis and just got power back after losing it for four days for the
second time in one year.

The first time was in the summer and was merely inconvenient. This time I had
to have a way to keep the furnace running. I first borrowed a generator
(3550w), but I started feeling bad about putting so many hours on someone else's
unit and figured it was time I had my own so I went out and bought a Coleman
5000w with the Suzuki 10hp engine.

Problem (with both but more so with the new one) is that generator power is not
clean enough for my new-fangled electronically controlled furnace (Trane hv-80).
With the borrowed unit the board kept flashing an error code that basically
indicated to replace the controller board. Fiddling around with it for a while
and I was able to get it running. With the new one the glow igniter comes on
and apparently causes enough of a voltage fluctuation to disrupt the controller
board and I get a "check igniter" error code.

Do other people have these problems? Between the midwest and the gulf coast we
certainly have plenty of people who occasionally have to run on generators and
electronically controlled furnaces are pretty much the norm now. Is my Trane
just being particularly fussy? Everything else we powered off the generators
ran great.

Of course the "cover our ass" page of the generator manual suggests getting a
line conditioner for just about anything that's not a light bulb. Do I really
have to drop a few hundred more dollars on one of those just to get my furnace
to run?

By the way, what convinced me that this was the problem was that the furnace
fired right up when I temporarily ran it thought my computer UPS. The UPS alarm
squalled like hell because it wasn't big enough, but the voltage as measured
with my voltmeter held much better and the furnace lit up. It would be nice if
I could isolate the power to run the controller board from those that pull major
amps so I could just get a conditioner for that, but it looks like everything
hooks straight to the board so I don't know if that can be done.

Naturally, four hours after I got the new generator running the utility company
got our power back up. I would still like to get a handle on this before the
next time.

If you don't mind modifying the furnace controller, I'd try running the
power to it through a quality line filter (not conditioner and not just
surge suppresser) and locating the DC power supply on the controller and
piggybacking a larger filter cap. By keeping out line noise and
providing better ripple control on the DC power you might be able to
convince it that the generator is ok.

Pete C.

I bit the bullet and installed the Generac after two extended outages
without heat, light, etc. Even if I never need it, the peace of mind is
worth the investment.....

Smarty


"Rick Brandt" wrote in message
. net...
"Smarty" wrote in message
...
I second that opinion. I live in an area of the U.S. which had an extended
power outage affecting several hundred thousand homes earlier this year,
and our climate is, like many cities in the Northeast, very cold in the
winter. Many homes with high efficiency newer furnaces had generator
incompatibilities, but inadequate generator grounding was an extremely
common problem which caused many furnaces not to work properly.

It is not surprising that permanently installed generators like my
Generac Guardian require an 8 foot long solid copper 5/8th inch diameter
rod to be driven into the ground and bonded electrically immediately next
to the generator.

Well that's good to hear. The next time (knock wood) I'll hopefully have
fewer problems. That'll be Murphy at work of course. Ameren claims these
are the two worst storms in their history as far as customers losing power
and they happened just a few months apart. Now that I'm prepared a little
better my generator will likely just gather dust.

In article , "Rick Brandt" wrote:

Well that's good to hear. The next time (knock wood) I'll hopefully have fewer
problems. That'll be Murphy at work of course. Ameren claims these are the two
worst storms in their history as far as customers losing power and they happened
just a few months apart. Now that I'm prepared a little better my generator
will likely just gather dust.

Put some fuel stabilizer in the tank (Sta-Bil or something similar) and run it
for a few minutes before you store it -- we failed to do that after the last
time we used the generator about 2 years ago, and then last Friday when we
needed it, we couldn't get it started. :-( Took apart the carb, cleaned it
with solvent and then compressed air, reassembled... and all was well. But
it's a pain in the neck that could have been avoided with a stabilizer in the
fuel tank.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Rick
Brandt" wrote:

Well that's good to hear. The next time (knock wood) I'll hopefully
have fewer problems. That'll be Murphy at work of course. Ameren
claims these are the two worst storms in their history as far as
customers losing power and they happened just a few months apart.
Now that I'm prepared a little better my generator will likely just
gather dust.

Put some fuel stabilizer in the tank (Sta-Bil or something similar)
and run it
for a few minutes before you store it -- we failed to do that after
the last
time we used the generator about 2 years ago, and then last Friday
when we
needed it, we couldn't get it started. :-( Took apart the carb,
cleaned it
with solvent and then compressed air, reassembled... and all was
well. But
it's a pain in the neck that could have been avoided with a
stabilizer in the
fuel tank.

Boy, that's a fact! I try to run mine for 15 minutes minimum under loads
every two weeks, just to be certain, and so far so good. Since installing
the transfer switch, it's an easy job; push the start button, plug it in,
and flip a switch at the transfer box. It's no problem remembering to run
it; I'm in the garage all the time anyway.

What DOES bug me though, is storing the gasoline for it for an extended
power outage over the winter as I'm sure some fellow NYers here are familiar
withg. If/when this thing goes plugs-up on me, the next one will be a
diesel unit! Diesel's a lot easier and safer to store. It's only 5000
watts but it's had a lot of use and been trucked all over the county for 8
years now - it's gotta go soon! I think. Actually, I hope, and during the
summer!

Just my 2 cents;

Pop`

Pete C. wrote:
Rick Brandt wrote:

I live in St Louis and just got power back after losing it for four
days for the second time in one year.

The first time was in the summer and was merely inconvenient. This
time I had to have a way to keep the furnace running. I first
borrowed a generator (3550w), but I started feeling bad about
putting so many hours on someone else's unit and figured it was time
I had my own so I went out and bought a Coleman 5000w with the
Suzuki 10hp engine.

Problem (with both but more so with the new one) is that generator
power is not clean enough for my new-fangled electronically
controlled furnace (Trane hv-80). With the borrowed unit the board
kept flashing an error code that basically indicated to replace the
controller board. Fiddling around with it for a while and I was
able to get it running. With the new one the glow igniter comes on
and apparently causes enough of a voltage fluctuation to disrupt the
controller board and I get a "check igniter" error code.

Do other people have these problems? Between the midwest and the
gulf coast we certainly have plenty of people who occasionally have
to run on generators and electronically controlled furnaces are
pretty much the norm now. Is my Trane just being particularly
fussy? Everything else we powered off the generators ran great.

Of course the "cover our ass" page of the generator manual suggests
getting a line conditioner for just about anything that's not a
light bulb. Do I really have to drop a few hundred more dollars on
one of those just to get my furnace to run?

By the way, what convinced me that this was the problem was that the
furnace fired right up when I temporarily ran it thought my computer
UPS. The UPS alarm squalled like hell because it wasn't big enough,
but the voltage as measured with my voltmeter held much better and
the furnace lit up. It would be nice if I could isolate the power
to run the controller board from those that pull major amps so I
could just get a conditioner for that, but it looks like everything
hooks straight to the board so I don't know if that can be done.

Naturally, four hours after I got the new generator running the
utility company got our power back up. I would still like to get a
handle on this before the next time.

If you don't mind modifying the furnace controller, I'd try running
the power to it through a quality line filter (not conditioner and
not just surge suppresser) and locating the DC power supply on the
controller and piggybacking a larger filter cap. By keeping out line
noise and providing better ripple control on the DC power you might
be able to convince it that the generator is ok.

Pete C.

Actually, that can work quite well. The cap needs to be in the 1,000 uFd
range or higher and, of course rated for the voltage to be put across it,
AND installed with proper polarity.
I did it for my nephew, but ... I wouldn't do it for anyone else except
under dire circumstances because as soon as you touch the box, you've
nullified any warranty that might still exist, plus taken responsibility for
any real or perceived damage to the controllerg.
Fortunately my old Wayne doesn't care.

Pop`

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:43:05 GMT, "Rick Brandt"
wrote:

Naturally, four hours after I got the new generator running the utility
company
got our power back up. I would still like to get a handle on this before
the
next time.

Of course.

What you need to do now is spend more money on a line
conditioner. This will guarantee that your power never goes out
again.


Run the motors direct offa the generator but place a cheap assed UPS inline
between the generator and control board.

For the OP....sitting here on my desk there's a used/surplus Corcom# 20r6
EMI filter ( hmm...sitting right next to Paul's bottle opener, in fact
!!!)--if you'd like to be it's proud new owner then just let me know....


It's the law. Murphy's law.


http://tinyurl.com/42cyv

--

SVL

Were these wired with two wires from the generator to the furnace or
three?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
I second that opinion. I live in an area of the U.S. which had an
extended
power outage affecting several hundred thousand homes earlier this
year, and
our climate is, like many cities in the Northeast, very cold in the
winter.
Many homes with high efficiency newer furnaces had generator
incompatibilities, but inadequate generator grounding was an extremely
common problem which caused many furnaces not to work properly.

It is not surprising that permanently installed generators like my
Generac
Guardian require an 8 foot long solid copper 5/8th inch diameter rod
to be
driven into the ground and bonded electrically immediately next to the
generator.

Smarty

Circuit board off the UPS and blower off the generator? You'd have to
do some serious wiring, to make sure the two powers don't meet.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

If you don't mind modifying the furnace controller, I'd try running
the
power to it through a quality line filter (not conditioner and not
just
surge suppresser) and locating the DC power supply on the controller
and
piggybacking a larger filter cap. By keeping out line noise and
providing better ripple control on the DC power you might be able to
convince it that the generator is ok.

Pete C.

Both. Of course, if you wired the furnace into your generator using a
three wire cord (third wire being ground) that should take care of it.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Rick Brandt" wrote in message
. net...
"Bubba" wrote in message
...
It could have been something as simple as the generator/s weren't
grounded properly. The new stuff with circuit boards are very
finicky
when it comes to a good ground.
Bubba

Are you just talking about earth ground (rod) or does it need to be
grounded to
the safety ground in the house?

I like to run em dry.

Also, for hard starts, sometimes some ether sprayed onto the air
filter helps.

If you remove the spark plug and spray ether into the spark plug hole,
you turn a $500 generator into a $75 hunk of scrap to sell on Ebay. A
relative of mine had this happen.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
In article , "Rick
Brandt" wrote:

Well that's good to hear. The next time (knock wood) I'll hopefully
have fewer
problems. That'll be Murphy at work of course. Ameren claims these
are the two
worst storms in their history as far as customers losing power and
they happened
just a few months apart. Now that I'm prepared a little better my
generator
will likely just gather dust.

Put some fuel stabilizer in the tank (Sta-Bil or something similar)
and run it
for a few minutes before you store it -- we failed to do that after
the last
time we used the generator about 2 years ago, and then last Friday
when we
needed it, we couldn't get it started. :-( Took apart the carb,
cleaned it
with solvent and then compressed air, reassembled... and all was well.
But
it's a pain in the neck that could have been avoided with a stabilizer
in the
fuel tank.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
Run the motors direct offa the generator but place a cheap assed UPS inline
between the generator and control board.

Problem is the incoming AC goes to the board where it is converted for use by
the board's circuitry and than also distributed to the high amp stuff on various
connectors. Not sure I could isolate the AC that powers the board without
serious modifications.

If I could though then you're right that it wouldn't take much of a UPS to power
the board itself. There's not that much on it and nothing that looks high
wattage.

If you get a diesel unit, please consider running it on kerosene.
Diesel gels, and I've known another fellow in northern NYS who
couldn't get his diesel genny started when it was cold.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Pop`" wrote in message
news:2B3dh.8059$Ga7.1881@trnddc01...

Boy, that's a fact! I try to run mine for 15 minutes minimum under
loads
every two weeks, just to be certain, and so far so good. Since
installing
the transfer switch, it's an easy job; push the start button, plug it
in,
and flip a switch at the transfer box. It's no problem remembering to
run
it; I'm in the garage all the time anyway.

What DOES bug me though, is storing the gasoline for it for an
extended
power outage over the winter as I'm sure some fellow NYers here are
familiar
withg. If/when this thing goes plugs-up on me, the next one will be
a
diesel unit! Diesel's a lot easier and safer to store. It's only
5000
watts but it's had a lot of use and been trucked all over the county
for 8
years now - it's gotta go soon! I think. Actually, I hope, and
during the
summer!

Just my 2 cents;

Pop`

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Both. Of course, if you wired the furnace into your generator using a
three wire cord (third wire being ground) that should take care of it.

sigh

Jake, do you want this one?




--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Rick Brandt" wrote in message
. net...
"Bubba" wrote in message
...
It could have been something as simple as the generator/s weren't
grounded properly. The new stuff with circuit boards are very
finicky
when it comes to a good ground.
Bubba

Are you just talking about earth ground (rod) or does it need to be
grounded to
the safety ground in the house?

Rick Brandt wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

Run the motors direct offa the generator but place a cheap assed UPS inline
between the generator and control board.


Problem is the incoming AC goes to the board where it is converted for use by
the board's circuitry and than also distributed to the high amp stuff on various
connectors. Not sure I could isolate the AC that powers the board without
serious modifications.

If I could though then you're right that it wouldn't take much of a UPS to power
the board itself. There's not that much on it and nothing that looks high
wattage.



I just looked into doing this on my Goodman board.
All I need to do is yank the 24V transformer primary
leads off the board. Plug those leads into the UPS.

The generator continues to power all the 120V loads
which are (relay) switched by the board.

This is a 95% *single* speed furnace.
I would be leary of doing it on a var speed control.

Jim

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I like to run em dry.

Also, for hard starts, sometimes some ether sprayed onto the air
filter helps.


WD-40 has (at least it used to have propane) as the propellant...


If you remove the spark plug and spray ether into the spark plug hole,
you turn a $500 generator into a $75 hunk of scrap to sell on Ebay. A
relative of mine had this happen.


With Stormy's 'help', just about anything is possible...

Next time, suggest simply dip the end of the spark plug into the gas tank
and then quickly replace it.

--

SVL

The best solution is to run the carb dry by turning the gas off at the
tank and letting the unit run until it quits. The other poster's
advice about periodically running it is a good idea as well but you can
get by with just starting it a few times a year. You do need to put
stabilizer in the tank if you are going to leave gas in it for more
than a few months. But even with stabilizer it will not last forever
and eventually should be drained. I run mine twice a year and if I
reach the end of the year and have not had to use it I drain the gas
from the tank. I also keep a 5 gallon container of gas with stabilizer
in it around. Periodically I use that gas in the lawn equipment and
replace it with fresh gas and stabilizer. That way you are ready to go
whenever. Usually you have some advance warning but not always. I've
had mine for about 8 years now.

I have not had the problems you are having with your furnace though.
One of my furnaces is newer but it too seems happy with the generator
power. Make sure you have all three lines well connected. I back feed
my main panel and it's always worked fine.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Rick Brandt" wrote:

Well that's good to hear. The next time (knock wood) I'll hopefully have fewer
problems. That'll be Murphy at work of course. Ameren claims these are the two
worst storms in their history as far as customers losing power and they happened
just a few months apart. Now that I'm prepared a little better my generator
will likely just gather dust.

Put some fuel stabilizer in the tank (Sta-Bil or something similar) and run it
for a few minutes before you store it -- we failed to do that after the last
time we used the generator about 2 years ago, and then last Friday when we
needed it, we couldn't get it started. :-( Took apart the carb, cleaned it
with solvent and then compressed air, reassembled... and all was well. But
it's a pain in the neck that could have been avoided with a stabilizer in the
fuel tank.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Millions of BIG UPS are tossed every year because the batteries are
expensive.....

so find a used surplus LARGE UPS, plug in generator and try it in
advance of next outage.

cheap solution you really dont nreed the battery just the conditioning

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
ups.com...
The best solution is to run the carb dry by turning the gas off at the
tank and letting the unit run until it quits. The other poster's
advice about periodically running it is a good idea as well but you can
get by with just starting it a few times a year. You do need to put
stabilizer in the tank if you are going to leave gas in it for more
than a few months. But even with stabilizer it will not last forever
and eventually should be drained. I run mine twice a year and if I
reach the end of the year and have not had to use it I drain the gas
from the tank. I also keep a 5 gallon container of gas with stabilizer
in it around. Periodically I use that gas in the lawn equipment and
replace it with fresh gas and stabilizer. That way you are ready to go
whenever. Usually you have some advance warning but not always. I've
had mine for about 8 years now.

I have not had the problems you are having with your furnace though.
One of my furnaces is newer but it too seems happy with the generator
power. Make sure you have all three lines well connected. I back feed
my main panel and it's always worked fine.

The main panel has a proper ground

"Rick Brandt" wrote in message
t...
"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
Run the motors direct offa the generator but place a cheap assed UPS
inline
between the generator and control board.

Problem is the incoming AC goes to the board where it is converted for use
by the board's circuitry and than also distributed to the high amp stuff
on various connectors. Not sure I could isolate the AC that powers the
board without serious modifications.

If I could though then you're right that it wouldn't take much of a UPS to
power the board itself. There's not that much on it and nothing that
looks high wattage.

You might be able to run the whole furnace off of a UPS that is fed by the
generator, but the generator *STILL* needs a good earth ground.

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Circuit board off the UPS and blower off the generator? You'd have to
do some serious wiring, to make sure the two powers don't meet.

Who said anything about a UPS or separating power? I didn't say that. I
said to run all the power through a quality filter block (~$20 surplus)
and to add an additional filter cap to the controllers DC supply. The
filter keeping out spikes and hash and the extra cap reducing ripple
should make the controller happier with generator power. Void the
controller warranty of course.

Pete C.

Yes, it does.

I'm wondering if he has tried to connect directly to the furnace with
it disconnected completely from the main. Not just with the breaker
off. In that case he probably does have a floating ground at the
furnace. If you just turn off the breaker and connect the two hot and
the common from the generator to the furnace then the main panel will
give you an earth ground and tie the common and ground together. Not
exactly the way you should do it but it should work and you would not
have a floating ground.

There is a mechanical lockout available for several brands of main
panels that works with one double breaker at the top of the panel and
the main breaker. It mechanically locks out the double breaker when
the main is on and then locks out the main when the double breaker is
on. That lets you back feed a generator safely through the double
breaker. I just take my two ac compressors and electric dryer breakers
offline and then switch the rest of the house over to the generator. I
have a 4400 and it runs everything pretty well. I have to instruct the
rest of the houshold to turn off lights and things when they are not
being used. I run computers, tvs, audio equipment, etc all without
problems. Most elecronics has switching power supplies these days and
they can handle some pretty trashy power. One winter ice storm we even
kept the christmas lights running on the outside. But that is sort of
rubbing your neighbors faces in it :-) Won't start my 2 ton upstairs
ac compressor even with it as the only device powered up and the air
handler fan off.

Noon-Air wrote:
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
ups.com...
The best solution is to run the carb dry by turning the gas off at the
tank and letting the unit run until it quits. The other poster's
advice about periodically running it is a good idea as well but you can
get by with just starting it a few times a year. You do need to put
stabilizer in the tank if you are going to leave gas in it for more
than a few months. But even with stabilizer it will not last forever
and eventually should be drained. I run mine twice a year and if I
reach the end of the year and have not had to use it I drain the gas
from the tank. I also keep a 5 gallon container of gas with stabilizer
in it around. Periodically I use that gas in the lawn equipment and
replace it with fresh gas and stabilizer. That way you are ready to go
whenever. Usually you have some advance warning but not always. I've
had mine for about 8 years now.

I have not had the problems you are having with your furnace though.
One of my furnaces is newer but it too seems happy with the generator
power. Make sure you have all three lines well connected. I back feed
my main panel and it's always worked fine.

The main panel has a proper ground

Generators produce "nasty" electricity. Ok for lights and motors, but not
"clean" enough for anything electronic like a TV, computer, or anything
which has an electronic controller like your furnace.

So place a power line conditioner or your UPS (many have a power line
conditioner built in) between the generator and your electronic devices.

I connect my generator to my UPS when the power goes out and the UPS screams
like a stuck pig (due to poor quality electricity), but everything
electronic runs fine.

Many offer solutions and yet almost no one first identified
(defines) 'dirty' electricity. Somehow all 'dirt' is same and all
conditioners solve that problem? Not for one minute. 'Dirt' is how
the naive magically 'fix' electric problems without first learning
which electrical parameter is causing problems.

First off, this is why Honda generators are so strongly recommended.
Hondas and other better generators solve you problem and other 'dirty
electricity' problems. Now you are buying numerous solutions to solve
what the more expensive Honda already solved for less money. 'Water
under a bridge' only for the lurkers who would learn from this problem.

Second, 'dirty' electricity could be voltage too high, voltage too
low, incorrect cycles, spikes between square waves (also called
modified sine waves to confuse the naive), excessive harmonics, etc.
Different problems would even define different 'conditioners'. If
filtering is required, these $10 solutions would do what that entire
UPS might have provided:
http://www.schurterinc.com/products/usa/pemfilter.asp
http://www.corcom.com/
http://www.cor.com/PDF/Q.pdf
http://www.interpower.com/ic/p30-35list.asp

http://www.interpower.com/scripts/ws...nly_filter=YES

So the question is whether furnace electronics were so poorly
designed as to not include that filter, or if electronic controller is
so well designed as to shutdown furnace due to AC electric problems.
Shutdown to protect other parts if the system from damage. Again, a
question that should be answered before assuming solutions.

You are correct. Manufacturer now intentionally short us of facts
because (as demonstrated in this post) so many somehow know without
first obtaining facts. Why bother providing technical facts when so
many have little idea even what 'dirty electricity' is? So many
assume all 'dirty' electricity can be solved by another magic device
called a 'line conditioner' without first asking even what that
conditioner does.

The typical UPS connects AC mains directly to its output. So where
or what is the line conditioning?

Try the filter. It is a cheap solution, would do more 'conditioning'
than the UPS, and provides useful information.

What were voltages when furnace would not work? I did not see those
important numbers.

Rick Brandt wrote:
Problem is the incoming AC goes to the board where it is converted for use by
the board's circuitry and than also distributed to the high amp stuff on various
connectors. Not sure I could isolate the AC that powers the board without
serious modifications.

If I could though then you're right that it wouldn't take much of a UPS to power
the board itself. There's not that much on it and nothing that looks high
wattage.

jamesgangnc posted for all of us...

I back feed
my main panel and it's always worked fine.


How would you like to be back fed you fundy idiot?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

Rick Brandt posted for all of us...

I live in St Louis and just got power back after losing it for four days for the
second time in one year.

220 - 221 whatever it takes...

--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

Now me, being an electronic genius, I wash all my electricity in the washing
machine ( operated by hand crank) before it goes to my breaker panel. I
found that sometimes the dirt particles were so big they interfered with the
circuit breaker safety function. I installed a fuel filter in my Generac so
the dirt that may be in the gasoline never gets into the lectric. Wish the
power company would filter their dirt diesel fuel too.
I have a ketch_UPS near my PC, but use it to make the hamburgers taste
better.

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself after looking at PJ's trailer site :-] I
realize I'm an idiot, just check out my name.

Bob

"w_tom" wrote in message
ups.com...
Many offer solutions and yet almost no one first identified
(defines) 'dirty' electricity. Somehow all 'dirt' is same and all
conditioners solve that problem? Not for one minute. 'Dirt' is how
the naive magically 'fix' electric problems without first learning
which electrical parameter is causing problems.

First off, this is why Honda generators are so strongly recommended.
Hondas and other better generators solve you problem and other 'dirty
electricity' problems. Now you are buying numerous solutions to solve
what the more expensive Honda already solved for less money. 'Water
under a bridge' only for the lurkers who would learn from this problem.

Second, 'dirty' electricity could be voltage too high, voltage too
low, incorrect cycles, spikes between square waves (also called
modified sine waves to confuse the naive), excessive harmonics, etc.
Different problems would even define different 'conditioners'. If
filtering is required, these $10 solutions would do what that entire
UPS might have provided:
http://www.schurterinc.com/products/usa/pemfilter.asp
http://www.corcom.com/
http://www.cor.com/PDF/Q.pdf
http://www.interpower.com/ic/p30-35list.asp

http://www.interpower.com/scripts/ws...nly_filter=YES

So the question is whether furnace electronics were so poorly
designed as to not include that filter, or if electronic controller is
so well designed as to shutdown furnace due to AC electric problems.
Shutdown to protect other parts if the system from damage. Again, a
question that should be answered before assuming solutions.

You are correct. Manufacturer now intentionally short us of facts
because (as demonstrated in this post) so many somehow know without
first obtaining facts. Why bother providing technical facts when so
many have little idea even what 'dirty electricity' is? So many
assume all 'dirty' electricity can be solved by another magic device
called a 'line conditioner' without first asking even what that
conditioner does.

The typical UPS connects AC mains directly to its output. So where
or what is the line conditioning?

Try the filter. It is a cheap solution, would do more 'conditioning'
than the UPS, and provides useful information.

What were voltages when furnace would not work? I did not see those
important numbers.

Rick Brandt wrote:
Problem is the incoming AC goes to the board where it is converted for
use by
the board's circuitry and than also distributed to the high amp stuff on
various
connectors. Not sure I could isolate the AC that powers the board
without
serious modifications.

If I could though then you're right that it wouldn't take much of a UPS
to power
the board itself. There's not that much on it and nothing that looks
high
wattage.

Simpler power supplies use the transform then convert to dc approach.
The biggest problem with these power supplies is higher frequency noise
that passes through the power supply and the confuses the control
electronics. One characteristic of electrolitic capacitors used in
these power supplies is that they become ineffective at high
frequencies. 2, 3, 4th etc harmonics are not an issue because the
transformer is quite happy to turn 120 cycle into 24 volts just like it
did the 60 cycle. And harmonics drop in potential exponentially with
each doubling of the frequency. Square and deformed sine waves as well
as voltage variations will change the output voltage of the transformer
but in this case it is stepping down by a factor of 6. If the
manufacturer did a half way decent job the output side has a regulator
and any voltage differences are handled by that.

Most of the other modern electronics uses switching power supplies
these days. These can handle an incredible variation in supply power
and still produce clean dc at the output.

Many conditioners do attempt to filter out high frequency noise. How
well they do it is another matter. Cheap conditioners do not clean up
deformed or off frequency sine waves. A ups would do that because they
convert the input to dc and then convert it back to ac. But those
problems are not likely to be the cause of his trouble.

Honda does make an excellent product. I like everything honda makes.
Trouble with honda generators is they are expensive. No question you
are getting a far superior product for your money. But for a generator
that I'm going to use on and off for a few days every year or two I'm
not so concerned with life expectancy and these cheap 4 to 6 kwatt
generators can be had often for $500 or so.

w_tom wrote:
Many offer solutions and yet almost no one first identified
(defines) 'dirty' electricity. Somehow all 'dirt' is same and all
conditioners solve that problem? Not for one minute. 'Dirt' is how
the naive magically 'fix' electric problems without first learning
which electrical parameter is causing problems.

First off, this is why Honda generators are so strongly recommended.
Hondas and other better generators solve you problem and other 'dirty
electricity' problems. Now you are buying numerous solutions to solve
what the more expensive Honda already solved for less money. 'Water
under a bridge' only for the lurkers who would learn from this problem.

Second, 'dirty' electricity could be voltage too high, voltage too
low, incorrect cycles, spikes between square waves (also called
modified sine waves to confuse the naive), excessive harmonics, etc.
Different problems would even define different 'conditioners'. If
filtering is required, these $10 solutions would do what that entire
UPS might have provided:
http://www.schurterinc.com/products/usa/pemfilter.asp
http://www.corcom.com/
http://www.cor.com/PDF/Q.pdf
http://www.interpower.com/ic/p30-35list.asp

http://www.interpower.com/scripts/ws...nly_filter=YES

So the question is whether furnace electronics were so poorly
designed as to not include that filter, or if electronic controller is
so well designed as to shutdown furnace due to AC electric problems.
Shutdown to protect other parts if the system from damage. Again, a
question that should be answered before assuming solutions.

You are correct. Manufacturer now intentionally short us of facts
because (as demonstrated in this post) so many somehow know without
first obtaining facts. Why bother providing technical facts when so
many have little idea even what 'dirty electricity' is? So many
assume all 'dirty' electricity can be solved by another magic device
called a 'line conditioner' without first asking even what that
conditioner does.

The typical UPS connects AC mains directly to its output. So where
or what is the line conditioning?

Try the filter. It is a cheap solution, would do more 'conditioning'
than the UPS, and provides useful information.

What were voltages when furnace would not work? I did not see those
important numbers.

Rick Brandt wrote:
Problem is the incoming AC goes to the board where it is converted for use by
the board's circuitry and than also distributed to the high amp stuff on various
connectors. Not sure I could isolate the AC that powers the board without
serious modifications.

If I could though then you're right that it wouldn't take much of a UPS to power
the board itself. There's not that much on it and nothing that looks high
wattage.

jamesgangnc wrote:
...
Many conditioners do attempt to filter out high frequency noise. How
well they do it is another matter. Cheap conditioners do not clean up
deformed or off frequency sine waves. A ups would do that because they
convert the input to dc and then convert it back to ac. But those
problems are not likely to be the cause of his trouble.
...

The computer grade UPS does not do 'input to dc and then convert it
back...'. However these myths are encouraged when selling a cheap
products to cure everything. The typical UPS connects AC mains
directly to its output - no filtering or condition. Why? An appliance
using these UPSes is not bothered by such 'dirty' electricity. Look
at that output for computer grade UPSes. This one outputs for 120
volts - two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts
between those square waves - when in battery backup mode.

Why is that acceptable? Because that obviously 'dirty' electricity
(high THD number in its specs) will never harm computers. Computers are
that much more robust - again in direct contradiction to myths.
Meanwhile, $500+ UPSes do the 'input to dc...' stuff. Manufacturers
love it when others claim a $100 or $200 UPS does same. Myths then
promote sales.

Most plug-in UPSes have near zero conditioning. Need line
conditioning? Then look at products from Zerosurge, Brickwall, and
Surgex. Look at the size and look at the price. If an output from a
generator requires line conditioning, then these are your products - or
why the Honda and equivalent products are less expensive.

I run my generator for 15 minutes with full load on the first of every
month. The gas tank is filled (about once a year) with gas containing a
double shot of Sta-bil.


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Sorry, all my ups experience is with the big ones that convert
everything to dc and then invert it back.

How do the little ones switch from the line to the batteries without
interrupting the output? They just switch and you live with the blip?

Not that any of this is going to help the guy trying to run his furnace
:-)

w_tom wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
...
Many conditioners do attempt to filter out high frequency noise. How
well they do it is another matter. Cheap conditioners do not clean up
deformed or off frequency sine waves. A ups would do that because they
convert the input to dc and then convert it back to ac. But those
problems are not likely to be the cause of his trouble.
...

The computer grade UPS does not do 'input to dc and then convert it
back...'. However these myths are encouraged when selling a cheap
products to cure everything. The typical UPS connects AC mains
directly to its output - no filtering or condition. Why? An appliance
using these UPSes is not bothered by such 'dirty' electricity. Look
at that output for computer grade UPSes. This one outputs for 120
volts - two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts
between those square waves - when in battery backup mode.

Why is that acceptable? Because that obviously 'dirty' electricity
(high THD number in its specs) will never harm computers. Computers are
that much more robust - again in direct contradiction to myths.
Meanwhile, $500+ UPSes do the 'input to dc...' stuff. Manufacturers
love it when others claim a $100 or $200 UPS does same. Myths then
promote sales.

Most plug-in UPSes have near zero conditioning. Need line
conditioning? Then look at products from Zerosurge, Brickwall, and
Surgex. Look at the size and look at the price. If an output from a
generator requires line conditioning, then these are your products - or
why the Honda and equivalent products are less expensive.

Christopher;
That doesnt make sense... You spray ether or starting fluid into the
carb, not the
actual air filter. Putting it into the spark plug hole is an option
but not normally taken.

What did they do to the motor?

Tom

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I like to run em dry.

Also, for hard starts, sometimes some ether sprayed onto the air
filter helps.

If you remove the spark plug and spray ether into the spark plug hole,
you turn a $500 generator into a $75 hunk of scrap to sell on Ebay. A
relative of mine had this happen.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

The relative who had spray ether into the spark hole, it dried out the
cylinder walls. The piston froze up. After breaking the piston loose
with a large wrench on the flywheel nut, the motor was able to start
up and run for about half second. Then it threw a piston rod.

Ether on the air filter delivers only vapor into the cylinder, much
less likely to dry out the cylinder wall.

The generator was sold on ebay for about $75.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

wrote in message
ups.com...
Christopher;
That doesnt make sense... You spray ether or starting fluid into
the
carb, not the
actual air filter. Putting it into the spark plug hole is an option
but not normally taken.

What did they do to the motor?

Tom

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I like to run em dry.

Also, for hard starts, sometimes some ether sprayed onto the air
filter helps.

If you remove the spark plug and spray ether into the spark plug
hole,
you turn a $500 generator into a $75 hunk of scrap to sell on Ebay.
A
relative of mine had this happen.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

On 7 Dec 2006 10:48:59 -0800, wrote:

Christopher;
That doesnt make sense... You spray ether or starting fluid into the
carb, not the
actual air filter.

No, actually Stormy sprays it on the air filter.

Stormy's a ****ing idiot.



Putting it into the spark plug hole is an option
but not normally taken.

What did they do to the motor?

Tom

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I like to run em dry.

Also, for hard starts, sometimes some ether sprayed onto the air
filter helps.

If you remove the spark plug and spray ether into the spark plug hole,
you turn a $500 generator into a $75 hunk of scrap to sell on Ebay. A
relative of mine had this happen.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

jamesgangnc wrote:
How do the little ones switch from the line to the batteries without
interrupting the output? They just switch and you live with the blip?

Output is interrupted during switchover. Relay must 'break before
make'. This is no problem to computers that must have robust power
supplies. One spec number defines number of milliseconds that computer
must keep working without power - typically 17 milliseconds. Often,
that computer's spec number is higher. But a battery backup UPS makes
the switchover typically in less then 10 milliseconds.

This switchover number is not relevant to the OP. It is listed in
UPS numerical specifications. A number from those specs that is
relevant to the OP is THD.

Well, nobody said he had to spray the whole can into the engine. Just one
little spritz will get 'er going if the spark is there (and timed
correctly).


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
The relative who had spray ether into the spark hole, it dried out the
cylinder walls. The piston froze up. After breaking the piston loose
with a large wrench on the flywheel nut, the motor was able to start
up and run for about half second. Then it threw a piston rod.

Ether on the air filter delivers only vapor into the cylinder, much
less likely to dry out the cylinder wall.

The generator was sold on ebay for about $75.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Christopher;
That doesnt make sense... You spray ether or starting fluid into
the
carb, not the
actual air filter. Putting it into the spark plug hole is an option
but not normally taken.

What did they do to the motor?

Tom

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I like to run em dry.

Also, for hard starts, sometimes some ether sprayed onto the air
filter helps.

If you remove the spark plug and spray ether into the spark plug
hole,
you turn a $500 generator into a $75 hunk of scrap to sell on Ebay.
A
relative of mine had this happen.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.