All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's. Excellent
structural condition, lovely hardwood floors albeit in need of a
refinishing. Paid for a home inspection prior to placing a bid on
house. Inspector noted some electrical items that would be against code
now for new construction but nothing major (things like clothes washer
sharing a circuit with other receptacles, lack of GFCIs in the kitchen,
etc.) all receptacles in house are three prong type and tested OK with
cheap little $5 circuit tester. All visible wiring was old BX w/ cloth
covered conductors and inspector said that grounding through the armor
of the BX while not the way we do things now was perfectly OK. So I was
feeling pretty good about things electrically, and that gave me a good
feeling about the house, as I automatically anticipated issues with lack
of grounds etc. in a house of this age. Well some of the receps. were
a little loose and old looking so I bought a pack of new ones and
proceeded to replace them. Basement went fine. Got to the first floor
and identified some issues that will be easy to rectify. Then I got to
the three oldest circuits in the house, one of which started life as the
general first floor circuit and another the general second floor circuit
(the latter of which still serves the entire second floor.) The third
is a lighting only circuit which serves the lights at the stair
landings. It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period. I don't have a big problem with that on a lighting only circuit
but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical, but this isn't the
way we do things now, so it bothers me a little bit.

questions:

1) is this actually an acceptable method of retrofitting receptacles to
grounded type? I suspect not, but you never can tell.

2) if not, is this the kind of thing that would generally be covered by
a home warranty? We did spend the $$ for one, although AFAIK it
generally only covers things like appliances etc.

I don't blame the inspector for missing this one; he would have had to
pull a receptacle either on the south side of the first floor or
somewhere on the second floor to identify this issue; there's a lot of
wiring visible in the basement but it is all either BX or obviously
recently added Romex which does contain a ground, so there was no reason
to believe that this wasn't consistent throughout the house. However,
the transition from exposed BX to hidden NM seems to be original to the
house as far as I can tell; I wonder why that would be?

Any help, thoughts, advice, etc. greatly appreciated.

thanks,

nate

(it's a good thing the girlie was planning on repainting, I guess...)

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's. Excellent
structural condition, lovely hardwood floors albeit in need of a
refinishing. Paid for a home inspection prior to placing a bid on
house. Inspector noted some electrical items that would be against code
now for new construction but nothing major (things like clothes washer
sharing a circuit with other receptacles, lack of GFCIs in the kitchen,
etc.) all receptacles in house are three prong type and tested OK with
cheap little $5 circuit tester. All visible wiring was old BX w/ cloth
covered conductors and inspector said that grounding through the armor
of the BX while not the way we do things now was perfectly OK. So I was
feeling pretty good about things electrically, and that gave me a good
feeling about the house, as I automatically anticipated issues with lack
of grounds etc. in a house of this age. Well some of the receps. were
a little loose and old looking so I bought a pack of new ones and
proceeded to replace them. Basement went fine. Got to the first floor
and identified some issues that will be easy to rectify. Then I got to
the three oldest circuits in the house, one of which started life as the
general first floor circuit and another the general second floor circuit
(the latter of which still serves the entire second floor.) The third
is a lighting only circuit which serves the lights at the stair
landings. It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period. I don't have a big problem with that on a lighting only circuit
but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical, but this isn't the
way we do things now, so it bothers me a little bit.

questions:

1) is this actually an acceptable method of retrofitting receptacles to
grounded type? I suspect not, but you never can tell.

2) if not, is this the kind of thing that would generally be covered by
a home warranty? We did spend the $$ for one, although AFAIK it
generally only covers things like appliances etc.

I don't blame the inspector for missing this one; he would have had to
pull a receptacle either on the south side of the first floor or
somewhere on the second floor to identify this issue; there's a lot of
wiring visible in the basement but it is all either BX or obviously
recently added Romex which does contain a ground, so there was no reason
to believe that this wasn't consistent throughout the house. However,
the transition from exposed BX to hidden NM seems to be original to the
house as far as I can tell; I wonder why that would be?

Any help, thoughts, advice, etc. greatly appreciated.


Definitely not kosher to connect the receptical ground terminal to the
neutral terminal.

Consider replacing those recepticles with GFCI types with "ground not
connected" labels applied to them.

If you can definitely confirm upstream and downstream recepticals you
could use GFCI recepticals in the upstream ones and continue using
recepticals without ground holes on the downstream ones, or use
grounding type recepticals with the same "ground not connected" stickers
on them.

As always, clear this stuff with your local electrical inspector he/she
may or may not go along with my ideas.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

It is not correct to wire outlets in that fashion, and I wouldn't expect
your home warranty to cover it, because it's not "broken" or something that
broke down, just improperly wired outlets. For people protection you can
install GFCI outlets, but it doesn't help for equipment that needs to be
grounded, for that you'll need to run grounded cables to those locations


"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than a
month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now that
I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues than
previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two story
colonial with full basement, built late 1940's. Excellent structural
condition, lovely hardwood floors albeit in need of a refinishing. Paid
for a home inspection prior to placing a bid on house. Inspector noted
some electrical items that would be against code now for new construction
but nothing major (things like clothes washer sharing a circuit with other
receptacles, lack of GFCIs in the kitchen, etc.) all receptacles in house
are three prong type and tested OK with cheap little $5 circuit tester.
All visible wiring was old BX w/ cloth covered conductors and inspector
said that grounding through the armor of the BX while not the way we do
things now was perfectly OK. So I was feeling pretty good about things
electrically, and that gave me a good feeling about the house, as I
automatically anticipated issues with lack of grounds etc. in a house of
this age. Well some of the receps. were a little loose and old looking
so I bought a pack of new ones and proceeded to replace them. Basement
went fine. Got to the first floor and identified some issues that will be
easy to rectify. Then I got to the three oldest circuits in the house,
one of which started life as the general first floor circuit and another
the general second floor circuit (the latter of which still serves the
entire second floor.) The third is a lighting only circuit which serves
the lights at the stair landings. It appears that throughout the house
wherever the wiring was hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and
there is no grounding, period. I don't have a big problem with that on a
lighting only circuit but the receptacles installed on the first and
second floor are grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided
by a jumper at each receptacle between the ground terminal and the
neutral. I realize that *theoretically* this is functionally identical,
but this isn't the way we do things now, so it bothers me a little bit.

questions:

1) is this actually an acceptable method of retrofitting receptacles to
grounded type? I suspect not, but you never can tell.

2) if not, is this the kind of thing that would generally be covered by a
home warranty? We did spend the $$ for one, although AFAIK it generally
only covers things like appliances etc.

I don't blame the inspector for missing this one; he would have had to
pull a receptacle either on the south side of the first floor or somewhere
on the second floor to identify this issue; there's a lot of wiring
visible in the basement but it is all either BX or obviously recently
added Romex which does contain a ground, so there was no reason to believe
that this wasn't consistent throughout the house. However, the transition
from exposed BX to hidden NM seems to be original to the house as far as I
can tell; I wonder why that would be?

Any help, thoughts, advice, etc. greatly appreciated.

thanks,

nate

(it's a good thing the girlie was planning on repainting, I guess...)

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It is not correct to wire outlets in that fashion, and I wouldn't expect
your home warranty to cover it, because it's not "broken" or something
that
broke down, just improperly wired outlets. For people protection you can
install GFCI outlets, but it doesn't help for equipment that needs to be
grounded, for that you'll need to run grounded cables to those locations

What equipment "needs" to be grounded?

You may find that today the answer is: not much!

Most audio/visual stuff (TVs, Stereos) doesn't have a ground.

I have a window A/C that has a GFCI built into the plug (which does have a
ground). But there isn't a ground wire to the case of the A/C.

Things like computers "need" to be grounded


"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It is not correct to wire outlets in that fashion, and I wouldn't expect
your home warranty to cover it, because it's not "broken" or something
that
broke down, just improperly wired outlets. For people protection you can
install GFCI outlets, but it doesn't help for equipment that needs to be
grounded, for that you'll need to run grounded cables to those locations

What equipment "needs" to be grounded?

You may find that today the answer is: not much!

Most audio/visual stuff (TVs, Stereos) doesn't have a ground.

I have a window A/C that has a GFCI built into the plug (which does have a
ground). But there isn't a ground wire to the case of the A/C.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Things like computers "need" to be grounded

Not at all.

They work just fine, thank you, with a "floating" ground. Often, however,
where these is a ground provided there is a network which provides a small
leakage path between BOTH power conductors and the chassis (ground). The
effect of this network would be to cause the chassis get a voltage on the
order of 55 volts. There is no shock hazard and the leakage of even
several of these systems is not likely to trip a GFCI.

There is a lot of "tradition" here.

When IBM started making PCs they had a ground. When folks starting making
audio/visual stuff include stereos and TVs, there usually wasn't a ground.
But both classes of equipment have user exposure to the "chassis." In the
audio/visual stuff its from the "RCA" female connectors. In the PC world
it's the connector shell including the mouse, keyboard, USB stuff, printer
and serial interface.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 08:04:56 -0400, John Gilmer wrote:

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Things like computers "need" to be grounded

Not at all.

They work just fine, thank you, with a "floating" ground. Often, however,
where these is a ground provided there is a network which provides a small
leakage path between BOTH power conductors and the chassis (ground). The
effect of this network would be to cause the chassis get a voltage on the
order of 55 volts. There is no shock hazard and the leakage of even
several of these systems is not likely to trip a GFCI.

There is a lot of "tradition" here.

When IBM started making PCs they had a ground. When folks starting making
audio/visual stuff include stereos and TVs, there usually wasn't a ground.
But both classes of equipment have user exposure to the "chassis." In the
audio/visual stuff its from the "RCA" female connectors. In the PC world
it's the connector shell including the mouse, keyboard, USB stuff, printer
and serial interface.

There's a big difference between A/V equipment and computers. Well, at
least in Europe, I don't know much about US regulations.
Most A/V stuff has reinforced or double insulation. That's why they
have a plug without ground. Computers (except some laptops) usually
have only 'normal' insulation. A single fault in the insulation can
create a connection between the live pole and the cabinet. Without a
grounded cabinet, that could be lethal. With grounded cabinet, you just
blow a fuse.

In case of fire or other damage, the insurance company can give you a
hard time, if they find out that you have class I equipment connected to
a socket without ground.

BTW: the 55 V you mentioned (115 V over here) is more than enough to
blow a serial or parallel port when connecting a grounded printer to a
non-grounded PC. For me, that's also a good reason to ground my PC.

--
Maurice

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period.

It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob

Bob F wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period.


It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob


No, it's definitely some early type of NM, although it may not be
officially designated as such. There's two plastic-insulated conductors
(that must be a pretty early use of same; as far as automotive stuff
goes I believe the transition was made about 1955 - at least it was for
Studebaker; I have a '55 coupe which (fortunately) has plastic
insulation on the wiring) in what appears to be a tar-impregnated cloth
jacket. But no ground.

I really, REALLY don't want to have to rewire two complete circuits,
although at this point it kind of looks like I'm going to have to. I
might even have to involve a *gasp* electrician due to the magnitude of
what this project looks like it's shaping up to be, which makes my
Y-chromosome cower in shame. I suppose I could just install new
non-grounded receptacles ahd that would be technically correct, although
then I'm back where I started, as there's computer equipment on the
second floor, and a UPS theoretically should have a ground... also
would feel better if the stuff in the bathroom were grounded (although I
was thinking of rewiring the bathroom anyway to meet current code with a
dedicated circuit, GFCI, etc. which is somewhat doable as there's a
small chase going down to the basement behind the bathtub, and an access
panel, so it's "just" a matter of getting a cable from behind the
bathtub up into the attic and then back down to the light switch...)

I suppose it's not acceptable to cheat and ground stuff to the nearest
water pipe...

nate


--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Bob F wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period.


It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob


No, it's definitely some early type of NM, although it may not be
officially designated as such. There's two plastic-insulated conductors
(that must be a pretty early use of same; as far as automotive stuff
goes I believe the transition was made about 1955 - at least it was for
Studebaker; I have a '55 coupe which (fortunately) has plastic
insulation on the wiring) in what appears to be a tar-impregnated cloth
jacket. But no ground.

I really, REALLY don't want to have to rewire two complete circuits,
although at this point it kind of looks like I'm going to have to. I
might even have to involve a *gasp* electrician due to the magnitude of
what this project looks like it's shaping up to be, which makes my
Y-chromosome cower in shame. I suppose I could just install new
non-grounded receptacles ahd that would be technically correct, although
then I'm back where I started, as there's computer equipment on the
second floor, and a UPS theoretically should have a ground... also
would feel better if the stuff in the bathroom were grounded (although I
was thinking of rewiring the bathroom anyway to meet current code with a
dedicated circuit, GFCI, etc. which is somewhat doable as there's a
small chase going down to the basement behind the bathtub, and an access
panel, so it's "just" a matter of getting a cable from behind the
bathtub up into the attic and then back down to the light switch...)

I suppose it's not acceptable to cheat and ground stuff to the nearest
water pipe...

nate




You can still buy ungrounded receptacles and put things back like
original. Most circuits don't really need a ground, like the upstairs
bedroom convenience outlets.

Where you really need grounds (bathroom, kitchen counters near the sink,
your computer UPS, etc,) you can run a separate green wire back to the
service panel ground (or to the nearest grounding electrode conductor,
if that is easier.) The ground wire does not have to run with the
current-carrying wires if you are updating old work.

You can also install a GFCI breaker and then use 3-wire receptacles,
leaving the ground terminal disconnected. In this case, you technically
need to put a sticker that says "GFCI Protected. No Equipment Ground."
on each of the grounding outlets that has a floating ground.

You can also protect circuits by wiring them thru the LOAD terminals of
a GFCI receptacle.

The most practical solution will probably end up being a mixture of
these methods. HTH :-)

Bob

i would run a seperate ground wire to the effected outlets.

how many are a problem? 5 10 50?

most older homes have few outlets, might be time to upgrade.

do not connect grounds to neutrals in the right situation it can
kill........

zxcvbob wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

Bob F wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no
grounding,
period.



It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob


No, it's definitely some early type of NM, although it may not be
officially designated as such. There's two plastic-insulated
conductors (that must be a pretty early use of same; as far as
automotive stuff goes I believe the transition was made about 1955 -
at least it was for Studebaker; I have a '55 coupe which (fortunately)
has plastic insulation on the wiring) in what appears to be a
tar-impregnated cloth jacket. But no ground.

I really, REALLY don't want to have to rewire two complete circuits,
although at this point it kind of looks like I'm going to have to. I
might even have to involve a *gasp* electrician due to the magnitude
of what this project looks like it's shaping up to be, which makes my
Y-chromosome cower in shame. I suppose I could just install new
non-grounded receptacles ahd that would be technically correct,
although then I'm back where I started, as there's computer equipment
on the second floor, and a UPS theoretically should have a ground...
also would feel better if the stuff in the bathroom were grounded
(although I was thinking of rewiring the bathroom anyway to meet
current code with a dedicated circuit, GFCI, etc. which is somewhat
doable as there's a small chase going down to the basement behind the
bathtub, and an access panel, so it's "just" a matter of getting a
cable from behind the bathtub up into the attic and then back down to
the light switch...)

I suppose it's not acceptable to cheat and ground stuff to the nearest
water pipe...

nate




You can still buy ungrounded receptacles and put things back like
original. Most circuits don't really need a ground, like the upstairs
bedroom convenience outlets.

Where you really need grounds (bathroom, kitchen counters near the sink,
your computer UPS, etc,) you can run a separate green wire back to the
service panel ground (or to the nearest grounding electrode conductor,
if that is easier.) The ground wire does not have to run with the
current-carrying wires if you are updating old work.

You can also install a GFCI breaker and then use 3-wire receptacles,
leaving the ground terminal disconnected. In this case, you technically
need to put a sticker that says "GFCI Protected. No Equipment Ground."
on each of the grounding outlets that has a floating ground.

You can also protect circuits by wiring them thru the LOAD terminals of
a GFCI receptacle.

The most practical solution will probably end up being a mixture of
these methods. HTH :-)

Bob



that may be doable at least upstairs; is it kosher to run, say, THHN
without conduit or greenfield or would I need some kind of plenum rated
wire? Please excuse the dumb questions; I know a lot about fire alarm
but just enough to be dangerous about plain old electrical stuff. Since
I really like this house (and paid enough for it!) I'd like to "do it
right" whenever possible, and certainly would like to be able to say
with a straight face to any prospective buyers in the future that
everything is up to snuff.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

Bob F wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to
mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less
than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no
grounding,
period.



It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob


No, it's definitely some early type of NM, although it may not be
officially designated as such. There's two plastic-insulated
conductors (that must be a pretty early use of same; as far as
automotive stuff goes I believe the transition was made about 1955 -
at least it was for Studebaker; I have a '55 coupe which
(fortunately) has plastic insulation on the wiring) in what appears
to be a tar-impregnated cloth jacket. But no ground.

I really, REALLY don't want to have to rewire two complete circuits,
although at this point it kind of looks like I'm going to have to. I
might even have to involve a *gasp* electrician due to the magnitude
of what this project looks like it's shaping up to be, which makes my
Y-chromosome cower in shame. I suppose I could just install new
non-grounded receptacles ahd that would be technically correct,
although then I'm back where I started, as there's computer equipment
on the second floor, and a UPS theoretically should have a ground...
also would feel better if the stuff in the bathroom were grounded
(although I was thinking of rewiring the bathroom anyway to meet
current code with a dedicated circuit, GFCI, etc. which is somewhat
doable as there's a small chase going down to the basement behind the
bathtub, and an access panel, so it's "just" a matter of getting a
cable from behind the bathtub up into the attic and then back down to
the light switch...)

I suppose it's not acceptable to cheat and ground stuff to the
nearest water pipe...

nate




You can still buy ungrounded receptacles and put things back like
original. Most circuits don't really need a ground, like the upstairs
bedroom convenience outlets.

Where you really need grounds (bathroom, kitchen counters near the
sink, your computer UPS, etc,) you can run a separate green wire back
to the service panel ground (or to the nearest grounding electrode
conductor, if that is easier.) The ground wire does not have to run
with the current-carrying wires if you are updating old work.

You can also install a GFCI breaker and then use 3-wire receptacles,
leaving the ground terminal disconnected. In this case, you
technically need to put a sticker that says "GFCI Protected. No
Equipment Ground." on each of the grounding outlets that has a
floating ground.

You can also protect circuits by wiring them thru the LOAD terminals
of a GFCI receptacle.

The most practical solution will probably end up being a mixture of
these methods. HTH :-)

Bob



that may be doable at least upstairs; is it kosher to run, say, THHN
without conduit or greenfield or would I need some kind of plenum rated
wire? Please excuse the dumb questions; I know a lot about fire alarm
but just enough to be dangerous about plain old electrical stuff. Since
I really like this house (and paid enough for it!) I'd like to "do it
right" whenever possible, and certainly would like to be able to say
with a straight face to any prospective buyers in the future that
everything is up to snuff.

nate


From what I can tell, the electric code is silent about that. I just
run a #12 green THHN / THWN-2 wire inside the wall cavities, staple to
the ceiling joists, etc. I run them as neatly as possible and where
they are unlikely to be physically abused. I ground them at a big
split-bolt connector on the main grounding electrode conductor a couple
of feet from where it goes into the electric panel.

I have an older house, and I'm trying to get one properly grounded
duplex outlet in each room, and I don't worry about the ungrounded
convenience outlets. All the basement, bathroom, and utility room
outlets are grounded and GFCI'ed (except the outlet for the freezers.)
All the kitchen outlets are grounded except for one that I couldn't get
a ground wire to so I installed a GFCI receptacle. (the one that I
couldn't ground just happened to be the outlet close to the sink)

Bob

No but you could pull a bare ground around to each box. How's the access?

--
Steve Barker


"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period.


It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob


No, it's definitely some early type of NM, although it may not be
officially designated as such. There's two plastic-insulated conductors
(that must be a pretty early use of same; as far as automotive stuff goes
I believe the transition was made about 1955 - at least it was for
Studebaker; I have a '55 coupe which (fortunately) has plastic insulation
on the wiring) in what appears to be a tar-impregnated cloth jacket. But
no ground.

I really, REALLY don't want to have to rewire two complete circuits,
although at this point it kind of looks like I'm going to have to. I
might even have to involve a *gasp* electrician due to the magnitude of
what this project looks like it's shaping up to be, which makes my
Y-chromosome cower in shame. I suppose I could just install new
non-grounded receptacles ahd that would be technically correct, although
then I'm back where I started, as there's computer equipment on the second
floor, and a UPS theoretically should have a ground... also would feel
better if the stuff in the bathroom were grounded (although I was thinking
of rewiring the bathroom anyway to meet current code with a dedicated
circuit, GFCI, etc. which is somewhat doable as there's a small chase
going down to the basement behind the bathtub, and an access panel, so
it's "just" a matter of getting a cable from behind the bathtub up into
the attic and then back down to the light switch...)

I suppose it's not acceptable to cheat and ground stuff to the nearest
water pipe...

nate


--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Bob F wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period.

It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob

Knob and tube went out before the 1940's in almost all parts of the
United States which is where the OP is from, I think.

H. R. (Bob) Hofmann

Negative. K&T was used up until almost 1950 in rural areas and actually was
overlapped by the early romex. The house i grew up in was K&T and was built
in '45. The house I'm rebuilding right now was wired in the early '40's and
has cloth romex. Not a knob or tube in sight. Google 'knob and tube' for
more info than you want to know.

--
Steve Barker



wrote in message
oups.com...

Knob and tube went out before the 1940's in almost all parts of the
United States which is where the OP is from, I think.

H. R. (Bob) Hofmann

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bob F wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to
mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less
than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's.
It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no
grounding,
period.

It's also possible that the wiring could be knob-and-tube in a house of
that age.

Bob

Knob and tube went out before the 1940's in almost all parts of the
United States which is where the OP is from, I think.

My first house, built in 1948, had knob and tube.

Bob

Electrical really isn't that difficult for a homeowner to do. You can
get a book on how to do it at the local library. I am a sheetmetal man
and I rewired my whole house without any problems and it passed the
city inspection with ease. It had four fuses for the whole house. I
ripped out the fuse panel and replaced it with circuit breakers. I had
a ranch type home and that made it easier.

If you are talking first floor, I would pull the receptacle, and then
go into the basement and drill a hole through the floor and sill plate
into the wall now run new wire through the hole and pull it out through
where the receptical was removed. They have new plastic boxes that can
go right back into the hole with no nailing required. As you tighten a
screw, a plastic flag flips out and secures the box to the drywall.
Then run that wire under the the floor to the box and hook it up.

If you are talking the second floor, it is pretty much the same, but I
would go up to the attic.

If you have any other questions, just ask
Pat








Nate Nagel wrote:
All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's. Excellent
structural condition, lovely hardwood floors albeit in need of a
refinishing. Paid for a home inspection prior to placing a bid on
house. Inspector noted some electrical items that would be against code
now for new construction but nothing major (things like clothes washer
sharing a circuit with other receptacles, lack of GFCIs in the kitchen,
etc.) all receptacles in house are three prong type and tested OK with
cheap little $5 circuit tester. All visible wiring was old BX w/ cloth
covered conductors and inspector said that grounding through the armor
of the BX while not the way we do things now was perfectly OK. So I was
feeling pretty good about things electrically, and that gave me a good
feeling about the house, as I automatically anticipated issues with lack
of grounds etc. in a house of this age. Well some of the receps. were
a little loose and old looking so I bought a pack of new ones and
proceeded to replace them. Basement went fine. Got to the first floor
and identified some issues that will be easy to rectify. Then I got to
the three oldest circuits in the house, one of which started life as the
general first floor circuit and another the general second floor circuit
(the latter of which still serves the entire second floor.) The third
is a lighting only circuit which serves the lights at the stair
landings. It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period. I don't have a big problem with that on a lighting only circuit
but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical, but this isn't the
way we do things now, so it bothers me a little bit.

questions:

1) is this actually an acceptable method of retrofitting receptacles to
grounded type? I suspect not, but you never can tell.

2) if not, is this the kind of thing that would generally be covered by
a home warranty? We did spend the $$ for one, although AFAIK it
generally only covers things like appliances etc.

I don't blame the inspector for missing this one; he would have had to
pull a receptacle either on the south side of the first floor or
somewhere on the second floor to identify this issue; there's a lot of
wiring visible in the basement but it is all either BX or obviously
recently added Romex which does contain a ground, so there was no reason
to believe that this wasn't consistent throughout the house. However,
the transition from exposed BX to hidden NM seems to be original to the
house as far as I can tell; I wonder why that would be?

Any help, thoughts, advice, etc. greatly appreciated.

thanks,

nate

(it's a good thing the girlie was planning on repainting, I guess...)

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

In article , Nate Nagel wrote:

but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical,

No, it isn't, not even theoretically. This makes it possible for the chassis
of any piece of equipment plugged into the outlet to become electrically live,
and it's not at all safe.

but this isn't the
way we do things now, so it bothers me a little bit.

Should bother you _a_lot_.

questions:

1) is this actually an acceptable method of retrofitting receptacles to
grounded type? I suspect not, but you never can tell.

No way.

2) if not, is this the kind of thing that would generally be covered by
a home warranty? We did spend the $$ for one, although AFAIK it
generally only covers things like appliances etc.

No.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , Nate Nagel
wrote:

but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical,

No, it isn't, not even theoretically. This makes it possible for the
chassis
of any piece of equipment plugged into the outlet to become electrically
live,
and it's not at all safe.

If the two wire circuit (w/o ground) is protected by a GFCI, it's quite
safe. Under some circumstances it is more safe than a grounded outlet
without a GFCI.

If you have an old house replacing behind the wall wiring just to get
"grounds" isn't necessary. If you are knocking out walls and/or adding new
circuits you new wiring should meet code but so long as you have GFCI
protection, there is no reason to fear for your safety with old wiring w/o
ground. BUT you should "test" your GFCI using the build in test button.
An external GFCI tester will not trip an ungrounded GFCI outlet.

In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , Nate Nagel
wrote:

but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical,

No, it isn't, not even theoretically. This makes it possible for the
chassis
of any piece of equipment plugged into the outlet to become electrically
live,
and it's not at all safe.

If the two wire circuit (w/o ground) is protected by a GFCI, it's quite
safe. Under some circumstances it is more safe than a grounded outlet
without a GFCI.

Well, yes -- but that's not the situation that was being discussed here.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

bareceptables 20 amp all by itself GFCI

hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.

refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping
fridge circuit NO GFCI!

kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI!
gas stove must be GFCI protected.

furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip
freezing home...

washer and dryer together on their own circuit

this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........

I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.

aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by
overloads

hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.

Yeah. Most just use an ungrounded (2 prong) plug and some have a GFCI
built into the plug assembly.


refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping
fridge circuit NO GFCI!

I have run refrigerators on a GFCI circuit because the outlet was on a
counter and I wanted all counter outlets protected. An old fridge tripped
out once a year or so (I think during defrost some water got onto the quartz
heater wiring) but when we replaced it with a new model (10 years ago) it
didn't trip. For my money, a modern fridge would not trip a GFCI unless
there is something WRONG!

I had a dishwasher on a GFCI but when the door seal leaked the water got the
heater terminals wet. Again, it was reasonable to cut the circuit when
water was getting into the wires.


kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI!
gas stove must be GFCI protected.

Yes but the main reason is the "convenience" outlet.


furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip
freezing home...

Why would it trip?


washer and dryer together on their own circuit

I have a clothes washer on a GFCI circuit (it's a duplex outlet and
something else may be plugged into it.) I know that the washer is supposed
to be on it's own circuit but ...

Now that you got me going, I wonder whether the over the oven microwave
would trip a GFCI. I don't think it would.


this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........

I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.

Our last two places had one circuit PER ROOM. Any trip kills everything
(including lights) in the entire room.

aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by
overloads

Frankly, we just don't trip the CBs very often. Before I put in the over
the oven microwave, we had a coffee maker, toaster, popcorn popper, and
microwave on one table. We had to remember to turn off the coffee maker if
we were using the toaster and the microwave at the same time. I think the
coffee maker and the toaster will still trip a CB every few months.

wrote:
bareceptables 20 amp all by itself GFCI

hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.

refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping
fridge circuit NO GFCI!

kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI!
gas stove must be GFCI protected.

furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip
freezing home...

washer and dryer together on their own circuit

this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........

I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.

aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by
overloads


Would you care to quote chapter and verse on your assertion that the Gas
Stove must be GFCI protected.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

bareceptables 20 amp all by itself GFCI

hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.

refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping
fridge circuit NO GFCI!

kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI!
gas stove must be GFCI protected.

furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip
freezing home...

washer and dryer together on their own circuit

this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........

I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.

aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by
overloads

If the two wire circuit (w/o ground) is protected by a GFCI, it's quite
safe. Under some circumstances it is more safe than a grounded outlet
without a GFCI.

Well, yes -- but that's not the situation that was being discussed here.

What?

That's EXACTLY the situation being discussed.

In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:


If the two wire circuit (w/o ground) is protected by a GFCI, it's quite
safe. Under some circumstances it is more safe than a grounded outlet
without a GFCI.

Well, yes -- but that's not the situation that was being discussed here.

What?

That's EXACTLY the situation being discussed.

Ummmmmm.... maybe I missed it, but where did the original post make any
mention of GFCIs??

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Nate Nagel wrote:


but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical,


No, it isn't, not even theoretically. This makes it possible for the chassis
of any piece of equipment plugged into the outlet to become electrically live,
and it's not at all safe.

It is functionally identical, so long as the neutral isn't broken. They
connect to the same terminal strip at the breaker box, after all. If
the neutral is broken, of course, all bets are off, and this is why I
brought it up in the first place.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

It is functionally identical, so long as the neutral isn't broken. They
connect to the same terminal strip at the breaker box, after all. If
the neutral is broken, of course, all bets are off, and this is why I
brought it up in the first place.

Doesn't matter. The rules are the the ground and neutral are bonded at the
service entrance or the breaker box. Not afterward.

It's no longer code but most older homes with an electric dryer or an
electric stove used a three wire plug. The neutral was connected to the
chassis of the dryer or stove. In new installations the chassis is
connected to a separate ground wire. In theory the "new way" is safer, in
practice it doesn't make any difference but electricians don't have a
choice.

The basic idea behind the grounding scheme is that the protective ground
only carries fault currents.

In article , Nate Nagel wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Nate Nagel
wrote:


but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical,


No, it isn't, not even theoretically. This makes it possible for the chassis
of any piece of equipment plugged into the outlet to become electrically
live,
and it's not at all safe.

It is functionally identical, so long as the neutral isn't broken.

No, it is *not*, as I just pointed out. You seem to be unaware that the
neutral wire carries current. If the ground and neutral are interconnected at
the receptacle, anyone simultaneously touching the metal chassis of any
equipment plugged into that outlet, and anything else that's grounded (e.g. a
water pipe or faucet, or simply standing on a concrete floor) makes a parallel
path to ground for the current in the neutral conductor -- and enough current
can pass through that person's body to cause a significant danger.

They
connect to the same terminal strip at the breaker box, after all.

And that is the *only* place that they are permitted by Code to be connected.
The Code _explicitly_prohibits_ interconnections anywhere else. Do you suppose
there might actually be a reason for that, or do you think they just did that
at random?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

(Doug Miller) writes:

In article , Nate Nagel wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Nate Nagel
wrote:


but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical,


No, it isn't, not even theoretically. This makes it possible for the chassis
of any piece of equipment plugged into the outlet to become electrically
live,
and it's not at all safe.

It is functionally identical, so long as the neutral isn't broken.

No, it is *not*, as I just pointed out. You seem to be unaware that the
neutral wire carries current.

That's true.

If the ground and neutral are interconnected at
the receptacle, anyone simultaneously touching the metal chassis of any
equipment plugged into that outlet, and anything else that's grounded (e.g. a
water pipe or faucet, or simply standing on a concrete floor) makes a parallel
path to ground for the current in the neutral conductor -- and enough current
can pass through that person's body to cause a significant danger.

In normal cases there are not enough current that can pass
through the person body to cause a significant danger.

Even though the is a lot of current going on the neutral
wire, the potential difference between the neutral wire and
the "real" ground is quite low. Typically in normal operation
(all wiring OK) up to few volts, transients to higher voltages.

When the voltage difference between ground and the neutral
is just few volts, not much current can flow between a person
that touches them both. The human body and skin has
considerable resistance, especially on low voltages.

The dangerous voltage differences exist and dangerous currents
can only flow when the neutral gets broken...

Wiring where grounded outlets gets only two wires
(live and combinet neutral+ground) used to be quite common
practice in several European countries (for example Finland)
for a quit long time. At some point the regulations changed
demanding separate neutral and ground wires to outlets in
most cases.

--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/

Nate Nagel wrote:
All right, I'm feeling mildly dumb and a little sheepish not to mention
slightly sick here... just bought a house for the first time less than
a month ago, and knew that it had some minor wiring "issues" but now
that I'm assessing what I have it appears that there are bigger issues
than previously anticipated. Anyway, here's the deal. House is a two
story colonial with full basement, built late 1940's. Excellent
structural condition, lovely hardwood floors albeit in need of a
refinishing. Paid for a home inspection prior to placing a bid on
house. Inspector noted some electrical items that would be against code
now for new construction but nothing major (things like clothes washer
sharing a circuit with other receptacles, lack of GFCIs in the kitchen,
etc.) all receptacles in house are three prong type and tested OK with
cheap little $5 circuit tester. All visible wiring was old BX w/ cloth
covered conductors and inspector said that grounding through the armor
of the BX while not the way we do things now was perfectly OK. So I was
feeling pretty good about things electrically, and that gave me a good
feeling about the house, as I automatically anticipated issues with lack
of grounds etc. in a house of this age. Well some of the receps. were
a little loose and old looking so I bought a pack of new ones and
proceeded to replace them. Basement went fine. Got to the first floor
and identified some issues that will be easy to rectify. Then I got to
the three oldest circuits in the house, one of which started life as the
general first floor circuit and another the general second floor circuit
(the latter of which still serves the entire second floor.) The third
is a lighting only circuit which serves the lights at the stair
landings. It appears that throughout the house wherever the wiring was
hidden behind plaster it was run in NM not BX and there is no grounding,
period. I don't have a big problem with that on a lighting only circuit
but the receptacles installed on the first and second floor are
grounding type and it appears that the ground is provided by a jumper at
each receptacle between the ground terminal and the neutral. I realize
that *theoretically* this is functionally identical, but this isn't the
way we do things now, so it bothers me a little bit.

questions:

1) is this actually an acceptable method of retrofitting receptacles to
grounded type? I suspect not, but you never can tell.

2) if not, is this the kind of thing that would generally be covered by
a home warranty? We did spend the $$ for one, although AFAIK it
generally only covers things like appliances etc.

I don't blame the inspector for missing this one; he would have had to
pull a receptacle either on the south side of the first floor or
somewhere on the second floor to identify this issue; there's a lot of
wiring visible in the basement but it is all either BX or obviously
recently added Romex which does contain a ground, so there was no reason
to believe that this wasn't consistent throughout the house. However,
the transition from exposed BX to hidden NM seems to be original to the
house as far as I can tell; I wonder why that would be?

Any help, thoughts, advice, etc. greatly appreciated.

thanks,

nate

(it's a good thing the girlie was planning on repainting, I guess...)


Nate
Those boot leg ground connections are a real danger. If any part of the
neutral conductor fails the metal shell of any grounded appliance
downstream of the open conductor will be energized through the connected
loads to 120 volts. Removing the bootleg grounds and installing ground
fault circuit interuptor protection on the affected circuits should be
your first order of business. That will provide safety to humans but
not to solid state electronics until you can upgrade the wiring.

Have your home warranty contract reviewed by a competent attorney. If
it has coverage for concealed defect it may cover the steps I have
outlined.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison