I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

wrote in message
...
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Rubber hose run through a PVC conduit?

Noozer wrote:
wrote in message
...
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Rubber hose run through a PVC conduit?

Rubber hose run through a PVC conduit?

good suggestion, aren't many pipe materials that will expand about
5% (10% along th ee pipe axis) without cracking or rupturing.

Most plastics used for pipe yield at ~2% expansion

Polybutyl? (PB) might work....but I'd test it first.

cheers
Bob

In article ,
wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

If you want to be sure it won't break there's no substitute for
burying it at or below the correct depth (frost line) for your area.
Check with local municipality or utilities.
--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -

wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Can you arrange the system so there is an air space in the pipe above
the water?

Mark

perforated drain pipe?

wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 16:17:57 -0400, wrote:

I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Is this a gravity drain system, or are you pumping?
If the former, why do you care whether the pipe cracks?

wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Well, if it freezes, it isn't going to do much good draining if there
is a source that isn't frozen as could easily be the case in many
situations.

What are you draining to have some context for a reasonable solution?
What amount of water does it have to carry?

But, if it is open and a straight run, it's unlikely freezing will
actually cause a heavy walled (Sch 40 or greater) pipe to break as
there would be an open end for expansion relief. Whether a solid pipe
is even needed is, of course, an open question (pun sorta' intended..
)

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:30:19 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 16:17:57 -0400, wrote:

I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Is this a gravity drain system, or are you pumping?
If the former, why do you care whether the pipe cracks?

Gravity fed. The water is suppose to go from point A to point B when
it is not froze. If it was cracked it would leak underground at that
point and cause a bog.

On 9 Oct 2006 09:06:43 -0700, "dpb" wrote:


wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Well, if it freezes, it isn't going to do much good draining if there
is a source that isn't frozen as could easily be the case in many
situations.

If it does freeze then some sort of heat tape would be required, but
if it was unbreakable it can't cause a bog to form.

What are you draining to have some context for a reasonable solution?
What amount of water does it have to carry?

It is 4 inch PVC right now but it can be made smaller to just
accommodate continuous drainage as opposed to part time rainstorm
volume.

But, if it is open and a straight run, it's unlikely freezing will
actually cause a heavy walled (Sch 40 or greater) pipe to break as
there would be an open end for expansion relief. Whether a solid pipe
is even needed is, of course, an open question (pun sorta' intended..
)

A 100 foot pipe is to long to allow all of the expansion to be
accommodated by the open end.

On 9 Oct 2006 03:11:23 -0700, "buffalobill"
wrote:

perforated drain pipe?

What is that?

On 8 Oct 2006 18:07:29 -0700, "Mark" wrote:


wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Can you arrange the system so there is an air space in the pipe above
the water?

Mark

No

wrote:
On 9 Oct 2006 09:06:43 -0700, "dpb" wrote:


wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Well, if it freezes, it isn't going to do much good draining if there
is a source that isn't frozen as could easily be the case in many
situations.

If it does freeze then some sort of heat tape would be required, but
if it was unbreakable it can't cause a bog to form.

What are you draining to have some context for a reasonable solution?
What amount of water does it have to carry?

It is 4 inch PVC right now but it can be made smaller to just
accommodate continuous drainage as opposed to part time rainstorm
volume.

Fail to understand the logic here. Making it smaller is almost
guaranteed to increase the likelihood of a solid blockage if it does
freeze as well as making the wall proportionally thinner. Making it
larger (or adding a parallel would seem more advantageous).

But, you still don't explain enough about what the water source is or
the configuration to make a rational answer of an overall solution
rather than trying to solve a specific question which is only a subset
of the actual problem.

As someone else noted, a perforated drain line (it's that black
corrugated stuff they use in backfills around basements where the
purpose in that case of the perforations is for water ingress to be
carried away by the pipe) in a gravel-filled trench _might_ solve the
problem. Sufficient grade to make the water flow so it doesn't ever
stand in the pipe to freeze solid enough to break is also possibly
another. Not enough info to really know much more specific to suggest.

But, if it is open and a straight run, it's unlikely freezing will
actually cause a heavy walled (Sch 40 or greater) pipe to break as
there would be an open end for expansion relief. Whether a solid pipe
is even needed is, of course, an open question (pun sorta' intended..
)

A 100 foot pipe is to long to allow all of the expansion to be
accommodated by the open end.

An open end is unconstrained...

Or you could just fill a foot long section, plug it and put it in the
freezer maybe?

wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

If you want to be sure it won't break there's no substitute for
burying it at or below the correct depth (frost line) for your area.
Check with local municipality or utilities.
--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:12:58 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:30:19 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 16:17:57 -0400, wrote:

I need to solve a water drainage problem. I need a source for pipe or
tubing that will not break when the standing water in it freezes.

It doesn't matter if it freezes. I just need it to not break. It will
be run100 feet horizontal just under the surface of the lawn.

Is this a gravity drain system, or are you pumping?
If the former, why do you care whether the pipe cracks?

Gravity fed. The water is suppose to go from point A to point B when
it is not froze. If it was cracked it would leak underground at that
point and cause a bog.

Is it gravity fed to open air? In that case, most times it
will be empty anyway. It will only freeze up when the
underground part (or downhill end) is below freezing when
the water supply isn't.

Unless the end is plugged, even if it's cracked, water should
prefer flosing in the pipe to working it's way out into the ground.
You'd get enough to encourage root-growth in that direction,
but you shouldn't get a bog.

Unless you just like to see a lot of posts, don't make
us pry the relevent details out of you. Where are you?
(What climate). Where is the water coming from,
and how much of it is there? Where are you trying to
get the water to go? What's the intervening terrain?
Is there power available?

--Goedjn

Gravity fed. The water is suppose to go from point A to point B when
it is not froze. If it was cracked it would leak underground at that
point and cause a bog.

Is it gravity fed to open air? In that case, most times it
will be empty anyway. It will only freeze up when the
underground part (or downhill end) is below freezing when
the water supply isn't.

There is no downhill end. It is horizontal and will have standing
water in it.

Unless the end is plugged, even if it's cracked, water should
prefer flosing in the pipe to working it's way out into the ground.
You'd get enough to encourage root-growth in that direction,
but you shouldn't get a bog.

The present system makes a bog. That is why I need a pipe that will
not break.

Unless you just like to see a lot of posts, don't make
us pry the relevent details out of you. Where are you?
(What climate). Where is the water coming from,
and how much of it is there? Where are you trying to
get the water to go? What's the intervening terrain?
Is there power available?

--Goedjn

This post is an attempt to see if there are any realistic solutions
to an existing broken drain pipe system. This is not my system but
my uphill neighbors system. If I can come up with an easy solution
for his water drainage system it will end my water bogged back yard.
If not I will have to go to court to get it solved, but for now I am
just looking for an easy way for my neighbor to fix his problem.

It is 4 inch PVC right now but it can be made smaller to just
accommodate continuous drainage as opposed to part time rainstorm
volume.

Fail to understand the logic here. Making it smaller is almost
guaranteed to increase the likelihood of a solid blockage if it does
freeze as well as making the wall proportionally thinner. Making it
larger (or adding a parallel would seem more advantageous).

There is a continual flow of water. If that can be maintained then a
one inch pipe will do good enough. If it plugs or freezes that will be
alright as long as it doesn't leak underground and cause a bog.

But, you still don't explain enough about what the water source is or
the configuration to make a rational answer of an overall solution
rather than trying to solve a specific question which is only a subset
of the actual problem.

This drainage system is a flawed system from my uphill neighbor.
(Pool backwash, Funneled backyard slope to a manhole cover,
Downspouts, Sump pump, Stupid engineering/neighbor) I don't care if it
freezes or plugs as long as it doesn't break underground and saturate
my downhill property.

plumbers are cheaper than attorneys.


wrote:
Gravity fed. The water is suppose to go from point A to point B when
it is not froze. If it was cracked it would leak underground at that
point and cause a bog.

Is it gravity fed to open air? In that case, most times it
will be empty anyway. It will only freeze up when the
underground part (or downhill end) is below freezing when
the water supply isn't.

There is no downhill end. It is horizontal and will have standing
water in it.

Unless the end is plugged, even if it's cracked, water should
prefer flosing in the pipe to working it's way out into the ground.
You'd get enough to encourage root-growth in that direction,
but you shouldn't get a bog.

The present system makes a bog. That is why I need a pipe that will
not break.

Unless you just like to see a lot of posts, don't make
us pry the relevent details out of you. Where are you?
(What climate). Where is the water coming from,
and how much of it is there? Where are you trying to
get the water to go? What's the intervening terrain?
Is there power available?

--Goedjn

This post is an attempt to see if there are any realistic solutions
to an existing broken drain pipe system. This is not my system but
my uphill neighbors system. If I can come up with an easy solution
for his water drainage system it will end my water bogged back yard.
If not I will have to go to court to get it solved, but for now I am
just looking for an easy way for my neighbor to fix his problem.

On 9 Oct 2006 22:54:58 -0700, "buffalobill"
wrote:

plumbers are cheaper than attorneys.

That is why I posted my original post.

wrote:
On 9 Oct 2006 22:54:58 -0700, "buffalobill"
wrote:

plumbers are cheaper than attorneys.

That is why I posted my original post.


Yes but the OP asked a vey specfic questions.......IMO the wrong one


Your "problem description" (until ~10+ back & forth posts, guesses,
questions) has been incomplete & vague.

If you want good viable soltuons you have to lay out the situation so
people can understand, analyze & solve it.

I don't understand how water draining from your "uphill" (how much
uphill?) neighbor's yard to a storm dran can have standing water &
create a "bog"

Got to have blockage and / or a "low spot" in the run. Drains are not
supposed to have standing water...mosquitoes!

Based on your peicemeal description:

don't worry about freezing, bigger pipe is better (3"+) , a 1" line in
the application will not work, correct the slope issues so you have no
standing water (no standing water, no freezing issues) , correct any
blockage or potential for blockage.

A hundred foot run isn't thatn far but you need ~2' of fall along that
length to get reiable flushing flow.

Fix the problem correctly.......like someone said plumbers (actually a
landscape guy) are cheaper than attorneys (plus the result will be
much more satisfying)

good luck YMMV

cheers

Your "problem description" (until ~10+ back & forth posts, guesses,
questions) has been incomplete & vague.

If you want good viable soltuons you have to lay out the situation so
people can understand, analyze & solve it.

The details of where or why are irrelevant. I could be in need of
tubing or piping that will not break when standing water was left in
it for use on the moon. It wouldn't make any difference. I still need
the pipe, and that is all that I was asking for.

wrote:
Your "problem description" (until ~10+ back & forth posts, guesses,
questions) has been incomplete & vague.

If you want good viable soltuons you have to lay out the situation so
people can understand, analyze & solve it.

The details of where or why are irrelevant. I could be in need of
tubing or piping that will not break when standing water was left in
it for use on the moon. It wouldn't make any difference. I still need
the pipe, and that is all that I was asking for.

Not necessarily. "Right answer to the wrong question."

An open-ended Sch 40 or above steel pipe isn't going to split (ultimate
burst pressure is roughly 8000 psi), but it still isn't necessarily the
solution to the problem as described. The pressure will relieved along
the length before it actually splits.

I don't have data for solid-wall PVC handy, but I'd be pretty confident
large diameter Sch 40 won't either, and quite comfortable w/ Sch 80.
But, still doesn't sound like it's the way to get rid of your problem.

Would seem far better to either divert the water from above around the
property or if that's not possible/practical, provide adequate grade
for the runoff or an open drainage system of some sort (not necessarily
not covered, just not solid pipe subject to the freezing problems).

Seems as though you're fixated on the pipe and not willing to consider
alternatives nor providing sufficient data/information to elicit really
useful responses other than conjectures of what the situation _might_
be.

Saw an episode on "Ask TOH" just a few weeks ago of very similar nature
on an buried drain---solution again had little specifically to do with
the drain itself but I could easily envision that homeowner asking
essentially the same question that wouldn't have elicited the response
to come and look at the actual problem and get a fix.

Seems as though you're fixated on the pipe and not willing to consider
alternatives nor providing sufficient data/information to elicit really
useful responses other than conjectures of what the situation _might_
be.


I have no power to advise a neighbor on how to do the job correctly.
That advise would range from no underground plumbing at all to an
elaborate expensive re-engineering/re-installation job.That type of
advice can only be given by a judge if it goes that far.

The only thing I can do is see if there is an alternative unbreakable
pipe that can simply replace the existing broken one. I might be able
to convince the neighbor to do this simple inexpensive job. Even
though doing this is a jimmy rigged solution to a faulty design it
still satisfies my problem of an artificial bogg forming in my back
yard.

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:19:04 -0400, wrote:


Seems as though you're fixated on the pipe and not willing to consider
alternatives nor providing sufficient data/information to elicit really
useful responses other than conjectures of what the situation _might_
be.


I have no power to advise a neighbor on how to do the job correctly.
That advise would range from no underground plumbing at all to an
elaborate expensive re-engineering/re-installation job.That type of
advice can only be given by a judge if it goes that far.

The only thing I can do is see if there is an alternative unbreakable
pipe that can simply replace the existing broken one. I might be able
to convince the neighbor to do this simple inexpensive job. Even
though doing this is a jimmy rigged solution to a faulty design it
still satisfies my problem of an artificial bogg forming in my back
yard.

Silverwing's laws, #37.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/2888/laws.html

wrote:
Your "problem description" (until ~10+ back & forth posts, guesses,
questions) has been incomplete & vague.

If you want good viable soltuons you have to lay out the situation so
people can understand, analyze & solve it.

The details of where or why are irrelevant. I could be in need of
tubing or piping that will not break when standing water was left in
it for use on the moon. It wouldn't make any difference. I still need
the pipe, and that is all that I was asking for.


The details of where or why are irrelevant.

I disagree as another poster said "right answer, wrong question"
equal no solution

I could be in need of tubing or piping that will not break when standing water was left in
it for use on the moon. It wouldn't make any difference. I still need
the pipe, and that is all that I was asking for.

yes, you "could" BUT you aren't.....you're here on planet earth with
drainage problem

Also it seems you are assuming that freezing was (is) the relevant
issue. Drains that drain properly don't freeze, seems like drainage is
the issue not freezing.

Providing a solution that survives freezing seems like the wrong
anwser, esp witha small diameter pipe

but hey , "The details of where or why are irrelevant"

cheers
Bob

Providing a solution that survives freezing seems like the wrong
anwser, esp witha small diameter pipe

but hey , "The details of where or why are irrelevant"

I don't care about drainage. That's his problem. If his property
doesn't drain it won't affect me. I only care that his drainage
pipe won't rupture and affect me. So the details of his drain are
irrelevant.

wrote:
Providing a solution that survives freezing seems like the wrong
anwser, esp with a small diameter pipe

but hey , "The details of where or why are irrelevant"

I don't care about drainage. That's his problem. If his property
doesn't drain it won't affect me. I only care that his drainage
pipe won't rupture and affect me. So the details of his drain are
irrelevant.


I don't care about drainage.\

I only care that his drainage pipe won't rupture and affect me

So the details of his drain are irrelevant.

Except when the system doesn't work properly and affects you

You are beyond help.

I wish you good luck, you're gonna need it..

cheers
Bob

I don't care about drainage.\

I only care that his drainage pipe won't rupture and affect me

So the details of his drain are irrelevant.

Except when the system doesn't work properly and affects you

EXACTLY AS YOU STATED......When his pipe breaks( it doesn't work
properly) it effects me, otherwise it doesn't effect me.

You are beyond help.


I wish you good luck, you're going to need it.

cheers
Bob

You are the one that can't comprehend what I am saying so I'll spell
it out for you.

His natural drainage without underground piping or with a plugged line
or with undersized piping will not effect me. My property can handle
the water when it's spread out in a natural way. I can only be
effected by his water if the pipe he runs ALL of the water through
breaks because it is close to my property line and I am downhill from
him.

If you can't understand that then........

"I wish you good luck, you're going to need it."

wrote:
I don't care about drainage.\

I only care that his drainage pipe won't rupture and affect me

So the details of his drain are irrelevant.

Except when the system doesn't work properly and affects you

EXACTLY AS YOU STATED......When his pipe breaks( it doesn't work
properly) it effects me, otherwise it doesn't effect me.

You are beyond help.


I wish you good luck, you're going to need it.

cheers
Bob

You are the one that can't comprehend what I am saying so I'll spell
it out for you.

His natural drainage without underground piping or with a plugged line
or with undersized piping will not effect me. My property can handle
the water when it's spread out in a natural way. I can only be
effected by his water if the pipe he runs ALL of the water through
breaks because it is close to my property line and I am downhill from
him.

If you can't understand that then........

"I wish you good luck, you're going to need it."



Be sure & let us know how this all works out. I can't wait.

cheers
Bob

His natural drainage without underground piping or with a plugged line
or with undersized piping will not effect me. My property can handle
the water when it's spread out in a natural way. I can only be
effected by his water if the pipe he runs ALL of the water through
breaks because it is close to my property line and I am downhill from
him.

So, he has installed a system that negatively affects you. Sue him.

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:08:20 GMT, "Noozer" wrote:

His natural drainage without underground piping or with a plugged line
or with undersized piping will not effect me. My property can handle
the water when it's spread out in a natural way. I can only be
effected by his water if the pipe he runs ALL of the water through
breaks because it is close to my property line and I am downhill from
him.

So, he has installed a system that negatively affects you. Sue him.

That may be the outcome.

cheers
Bob

Thank you for your help but at this time your recommendations
are not needed.

swimming pools in buffalo ny not permitted to backwash onto neighbor's
lawn.
maybe your local building inspector is your best local advisor on this
assorted drainage problem.
if mosquitoes can breed in any standing water other health problems
occur. [west nile virus, popping up in ny state]
refer to cdc website for your local risk on that.



wrote:
It is 4 inch PVC right now but it can be made smaller to just
accommodate continuous drainage as opposed to part time rainstorm
volume.

Fail to understand the logic here. Making it smaller is almost
guaranteed to increase the likelihood of a solid blockage if it does
freeze as well as making the wall proportionally thinner. Making it
larger (or adding a parallel would seem more advantageous).

There is a continual flow of water. If that can be maintained then a
one inch pipe will do good enough. If it plugs or freezes that will be
alright as long as it doesn't leak underground and cause a bog.

But, you still don't explain enough about what the water source is or
the configuration to make a rational answer of an overall solution
rather than trying to solve a specific question which is only a subset
of the actual problem.

This drainage system is a flawed system from my uphill neighbor.
(Pool backwash, Funneled backyard slope to a manhole cover,
Downspouts, Sump pump, Stupid engineering/neighbor) I don't care if it
freezes or plugs as long as it doesn't break underground and saturate
my downhill property.

On 11 Oct 2006 03:31:27 -0700, "buffalobill"
wrote:

swimming pools in buffalo ny not permitted to backwash onto neighbor's
lawn.
maybe your local building inspector is your best local advisor on this
assorted drainage problem.
if mosquitoes can breed in any standing water other health problems
occur. [west nile virus, popping up in ny state]
refer to cdc website for your local risk on that.

I have the TWP's building supervisor involved also. I am taking a
multi path approach to getting this solved. The one path I haven't
looked into is notifying the DNR (dept of Natural Resources).
Unknowingly my neighbor is putting his pool waste, downspout,
backyard runoff and sump pump waste into the ground water
supply/water table. We all use wells around here and my guess
is the DNR would have the biggest beef about what is occurring.