The two recent threads describing one person's travails with Thompson's
Water Seal bring to mind something that's been bugging me recently
concerning this. I recently refinished a friend's front door, an
oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand name) that was
severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch it, I asked the
people at the hardwood store what they recommended for varnish: they
told me that their brand of water-based varnish was the stuff to use,
and should last 10 years or so. (I forget what brand; maybe McCloskey?)
It wasn't cheap.

Anyhow, I followed their suggestion. When it came time to varnish, I was
really disappointed at the look of the varnish, both in the can (it was
milky) and as it went on. It turned out OK, sort of: there were a few
spots of old varnish I couldn't quite remove, and these showed through
as blotches. It looks better than before I worked on it, but I have the
nagging feeling that an oil-based varnish would have blended with the
old varnish better.

I understand why states and counties are moving towards banning
oil-based stuff: I know about VOCs, and as a human being, I appreciate
not having to breathe photochemical smog. But I still prefer oil-based
paint and varnish. It just goes on so much more smoothly than
water-based stuff. It's too bad the substitute is so poor by comparison.
(Except for clean-up, which is a lot easier with water-based.)


--
Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War
II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan.
The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second
Lebanon War.

- Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist
(http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
The two recent threads describing one person's travails with Thompson's
Water Seal bring to mind something that's been bugging me recently
concerning this. I recently refinished a friend's front door, an
oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand name) that was
severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch it, I asked the
people at the hardwood store what they recommended for varnish: they
told me that their brand of water-based varnish was the stuff to use,
and should last 10 years or so. (I forget what brand; maybe McCloskey?)
It wasn't cheap.

Anyhow, I followed their suggestion. When it came time to varnish, I was
really disappointed at the look of the varnish, both in the can (it was
milky) and as it went on. It turned out OK, sort of: there were a few
spots of old varnish I couldn't quite remove, and these showed through
as blotches. It looks better than before I worked on it, but I have the
nagging feeling that an oil-based varnish would have bl
I understand why states and counties are moving towards banning
oil-based stuff: I know about VOCs, and as a human being, I appreciate
not having to breathe photochemical smog. But I still prefer oil-based
paint and varnish. It just goes on so much more smoothly than
water-based stuff. It's too bad the substitute is so poor by comparison.
(Except for clean-up, which is a lot easier with water-based.)


--
Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War
II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan.
The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second
Lebanon War.

- Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist
(http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html)

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:02:50 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

The two recent threads describing one person's travails with Thompson's
Water Seal bring to mind something that's been bugging me recently
concerning this. I recently refinished a friend's front door, an
oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand name) that was
severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch it, I asked the
people at the hardwood store what they recommended for varnish: they
told me that their brand of water-based varnish was the stuff to use,
and should last 10 years or so. (I forget what brand; maybe McCloskey?)
It wasn't cheap.

Anyhow, I followed their suggestion. When it came time to varnish, I was
really disappointed at the look of the varnish, both in the can (it was
milky) and as it went on. It turned out OK, sort of: there were a few
spots of old varnish I couldn't quite remove, and these showed through
as blotches. It looks better than before I worked on it, but I have the
nagging feeling that an oil-based varnish would have blended with the
old varnish better.

I understand why states and counties are moving towards banning
oil-based stuff: I know about VOCs, and as a human being, I appreciate
not having to breathe photochemical smog. But I still prefer oil-based
paint and varnish. It just goes on so much more smoothly than
water-based stuff. It's too bad the substitute is so poor by comparison.
(Except for clean-up, which is a lot easier with water-based.)

Yeah, and water based raises the wood grain. You'd think they could
come up with some sort of alcohol base. I dont think that produces
near as much VOC and is still not water. The old shellac was alcohol
based.

spake thus:

Yeah, and water based raises the wood grain. You'd think they could
come up with some sort of alcohol base. I dont think that produces
near as much VOC and is still not water. The old shellac was alcohol
based.

Still is. Good stuff; unfortunately, not up to such a weather-exposed
application like this.


--
Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War
II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan.
The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second
Lebanon War.

- Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist
(http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
The two recent threads describing one person's travails with Thompson's
Water Seal bring to mind something that's been bugging me recently
concerning this. I recently refinished a friend's front door, an
oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand name) that was
severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch it, I asked the
people at the hardwood store what they recommended for varnish: they
told me that their brand of water-based varnish was the stuff to use,
and should last 10 years or so. (I forget what brand; maybe McCloskey?)
It wasn't cheap.

Anyhow, I followed their suggestion. When it came time to varnish, I was
really disappointed at the look of the varnish, both in the can (it was
milky) and as it went on. It turned out OK, sort of: there were a few
spots of old varnish I couldn't quite remove, and these showed through
as blotches. It looks better than before I worked on it, but I have the
nagging feeling that an oil-based varnish would have blended with the
old varnish better.

I'm no fan of water-based paint or varnish on wood, but your prep is why
the job doesn't look good. Old varnish should have been stripped with
paint remover, and weathered wood sanded. Clear finish on wood that
gets a lot of sun is like a "greenhouse" effect, as it seems to allow
more heat and damage to the wood. Oil-based varnish on wood with
remnants of old finish or uneven removal of old stain would also give
less than satisfactory results.

I understand why states and counties are moving towards banning
oil-based stuff: I know about VOCs, and as a human being, I appreciate
not having to breathe photochemical smog. But I still prefer oil-based
paint and varnish. It just goes on so much more smoothly than
water-based stuff. It's too bad the substitute is so poor by comparison.
(Except for clean-up, which is a lot easier with water-based.)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
The two recent threads describing one person's travails with
Thompson's Water Seal bring to mind something that's been bugging me
recently concerning this. I recently refinished a friend's front
door, an oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand
name) that was severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch
it, I asked the people at the hardwood store what they recommended
for varnish: they told me that their brand of water-based varnish was
the stuff to use, and should last 10 years or so. (I forget what
brand; maybe McCloskey?) It wasn't cheap. ...


Frankly your best bet is to find a good boat store and get a real marine
varnish.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

I hope you used a Marine-exterior rated varnish, but not removing all
the old finish doesnt say much for your work.

David,

We use water based finishes for 75% of the stuff we do. If you want a
deeper look (oil based look) You can apply one or two coats of amber shellac
and then finish with two coats of exterior clear acrylic. Water based
exterior is still not as good as the Marine spar varnishes. Either way
always remove all the old finish.

cm


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
The two recent threads describing one person's travails with Thompson's
Water Seal bring to mind something that's been bugging me recently
concerning this. I recently refinished a friend's front door, an
oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand name) that was
severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch it, I asked the
people at the hardwood store what they recommended for varnish: they told
me that their brand of water-based varnish was the stuff to use, and
should last 10 years or so. (I forget what brand; maybe McCloskey?) It
wasn't cheap.

Anyhow, I followed their suggestion. When it came time to varnish, I was
really disappointed at the look of the varnish, both in the can (it was
milky) and as it went on. It turned out OK, sort of: there were a few
spots of old varnish I couldn't quite remove, and these showed through as
blotches. It looks better than before I worked on it, but I have the
nagging feeling that an oil-based varnish would have blended with the old
varnish better.

I understand why states and counties are moving towards banning oil-based
stuff: I know about VOCs, and as a human being, I appreciate not having to
breathe photochemical smog. But I still prefer oil-based paint and
varnish. It just goes on so much more smoothly than water-based stuff.
It's too bad the substitute is so poor by comparison. (Except for
clean-up, which is a lot easier with water-based.)


--
Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War
II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan.
The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second
Lebanon War.

- Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist
(http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html)

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:02:50 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
David Nebenzahl quickly quoth:

The two recent threads describing one person's travails with Thompson's
Water Seal bring to mind something that's been bugging me recently

Thompson does GREAT with their advertising. The problem is that their
product is more like a Yugo while it's being marketed as a Rolls.
I don't have a deck, but I've seen befores and afters with Thompson's
and Penofin. I wouldn't use Thompson's if you -gave- it to me. My
sister had a great story about that. She hired a guy to refinish her
deck and bought the Thompson's for it. (we hadn't discussed it) A few
minutes after he started, she was walking by the sliding glassdoor and
saw the guy splashing it on like you would dump a bucket of water out.
After she straightened him out, she said he could buy any additional
product to finish the job. It would be coming out of his pay. After
trying it once, she said she wouldn't buy Thompson's again. Their
advertising is so pervasive (as is Wagner's) you'd think they were
good products.


concerning this. I recently refinished a friend's front door, an
oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand name) that was
severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch it, I asked the
people at the hardwood store what they recommended for varnish: they
told me that their brand of water-based varnish was the stuff to use,
and should last 10 years or so. (I forget what brand; maybe McCloskey?)
It wasn't cheap.

Yeah, both poly and acrylic waterborne finishes have a blue hue, while
oil imparts an amber hue. For a Craftsman finish, oil varnish would
have been more apropos, more true from a historic standpoint. Check
out Waterlox Original sometime. It's a rub-on finish made from linseed
and tung oils plus varnish resins. I buy their medium sheen and
degloss with Johnson's wax on a 0000 steel wool pad. It's perfect for
a Stickley finish. 30% ammonia is available at surveyor supply shops
for $7-8 a gallon, if you're into fuming your own quartersawn white
oak to make the look entirely original.


Anyhow, I followed their suggestion. When it came time to varnish, I was
really disappointed at the look of the varnish, both in the can (it was
milky) and as it went on. It turned out OK, sort of: there were a few
spots of old varnish I couldn't quite remove, and these showed through
as blotches. It looks better than before I worked on it, but I have the
nagging feeling that an oil-based varnish would have blended with the
old varnish better.

It would have, but it taught you a lesson, too. Next time, do take
that extra time to prep better. Use an extension on your scraper
and/or a methylene chloride based stripper if need be, but get those
tough areas better. It's truly worth the extra effort, as prep work
makes 90% of the finish.


I understand why states and counties are moving towards banning
oil-based stuff: I know about VOCs, and as a human being, I appreciate
not having to breathe photochemical smog. But I still prefer oil-based
paint and varnish. It just goes on so much more smoothly than
water-based stuff. It's too bad the substitute is so poor by comparison.
(Except for clean-up, which is a lot easier with water-based.)

I absolutely agree and use oil-based finishes everywhere possible. I
haven't tried Waterlox outside, but I did refinish a front door in
full California sun (but protected from direct rain) using Watco oil
finish. It looked great, and took a 15 minute refinish every six
months or so to keep it looking brand new. (5 minute cleaning, 10
minute dry time, 5 minute wipe-on, 20 minute catalyze/harden time, 5
minute wipe-off)

Waterlox will be going on some screen doors for my current house. One
is full afternoon sun and direct rain. I'm looking forward to seeing
how Waterlox does in the weather. I just love the stuff. (Original,
NOT that trash with poly in it. I very much dislike polyurinestain.

I'll buy oil-based finishes for woodwork for as long as they're
available, and I'll fight for their availability!


--
Deep doubts, deep wisdom; small doubts, little wisdom.
--Chinese Proverb
----
www.diversify.com - Your Wise & Willing Website Wonk

Larry Jaques spake thus:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:02:50 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
David Nebenzahl quickly quoth:

... I recently refinished a friend's front door, an
oak-veneered Craftsman (genre of architecture, not brand name) that was
severely weathered. When I was buying veneer to patch it, I asked the
people at the hardwood store what they recommended for varnish: they
told me that their brand of water-based varnish was the stuff to use,
and should last 10 years or so. (I forget what brand; maybe McCloskey?)
It wasn't cheap.

Yeah, both poly and acrylic waterborne finishes have a blue hue, while
oil imparts an amber hue. For a Craftsman finish, oil varnish would
have been more apropos, more true from a historic standpoint. Check
out Waterlox Original sometime. It's a rub-on finish made from linseed
and tung oils plus varnish resins. I buy their medium sheen and
degloss with Johnson's wax on a 0000 steel wool pad. It's perfect for
a Stickley finish. 30% ammonia is available at surveyor supply shops
for $7-8 a gallon, if you're into fuming your own quartersawn white
oak to make the look entirely original.

I don't think this would have been appropriate treatment for this door;
it's an entry door which is directly exposed to afternoon sun, as well
as rain in the winter. (I'm trying to spare the homeowner, who's a
friend of mine, having to renew the finish every 6 months or whenever.)
Whatever goes on it has to be really tough.

Anyhow, I followed their suggestion. When it came time to varnish, I was
really disappointed at the look of the varnish, both in the can (it was
milky) and as it went on. It turned out OK, sort of: there were a few
spots of old varnish I couldn't quite remove, and these showed through
as blotches. It looks better than before I worked on it, but I have the
nagging feeling that an oil-based varnish would have blended with the
old varnish better.

It would have, but it taught you a lesson, too. Next time, do take
that extra time to prep better. Use an extension on your scraper
and/or a methylene chloride based stripper if need be, but get those
tough areas better. It's truly worth the extra effort, as prep work
makes 90% of the finish.

In my defense, I tried to remove as much of the old finish as possible,
but I was constrained by two things: working with thin veneer and not
wanting to sand through it or make it peel off (I already had to replace
or reglue large sections where this was happening), and trying not to
turn this into a massive two-week refinishing job. In any case, the end
result was more than acceptable to my friends.


--
Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War
II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan.
The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second
Lebanon War.

- Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist
(http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html)

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:38:20 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
David Nebenzahl quickly quoth:

In my defense, I tried to remove as much of the old finish as possible,
but I was constrained by two things: working with thin veneer and not

Thin veneer on an -exterior- door?!? Oy vay.


wanting to sand through it or make it peel off (I already had to replace
or reglue large sections where this was happening), and trying not to
turn this into a massive two-week refinishing job. In any case, the end
result was more than acceptable to my friends.

I guess that's what counts. g


--
Deep doubts, deep wisdom; small doubts, little wisdom.
--Chinese Proverb
----
www.diversify.com - Your Wise & Willing Website Wonk