"Stubby" wrote in message
news


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

Talk to the owner of a good established paint store. Most
wont carry crap because they are personally seeing the people if things
go wrong, not like the big box store.
This is clearly wrong. A store owner, and I did operate a retail
business,
wants to stock what sells. That's why cheap products exist in the first
place.

I notice you say "did" operate a retail business. If you sold a quality
product that would get repeat customers, maybe you'd still be in business.
My local paint store sells various grades, but they do not sell crap. Bob
has been in the paint business for over 30 years because of his good
reputation.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
So far as what it looks like after painting, I always say...

Walk into a house - any house and tell me what brand of paint they used.

Was it Ralph Loren, Walmart, or you can't tell what brand?

I use Walmart myself...



I agree with the fact you can't tell brand. I tried WalMart stuff once.
After the fourth coat I decided I'd never try it again. That may have just
been that color and that batch but it was back to my regular store.

wrote:
Ether Jones wrote:
wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On 18 Sep 2006 21:20:03 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
quickly quoth:

Well...according to the supplier it was "ready to paint", but we put it
up, caulked, waited three weeks, then lightly sanded and powerwashed
it. Then we used Bin (or Kilz, or whatever Behr recommended) on the
knots, Behr latex exterior primer, and 2 coats of Behr exterior
"Premium Plus". We also had one wall of a carport painted at the same
time as the shed (right next to each other), and it already had a
perfectly serviceable coat of paint. Since the shed was to be a
different color, we powerwashed the carport wall as well, and painted
it. It had EXACTLY the same amount of peeling as the new siding in the
same amount of time.

Don't you see the key? You powerwashed then painted. Paint doesn't
like moisture. You mentioned waiting 3 weeks the first time but didn't
mention any wait prior to painting after powerwashing.

No, that's NOT the key. I didn't mention waiting 4 (sunny) days between
powerwashing and beginning to paint because, well, only a complete
IDIOT would start the prep with the wood still wet. Same reason I
originally failed to mention leaving the raw wood for several weeks,
only an IDIOT paints green wood. We waited 4 days, applied the Bin,
waited 2 more days, applied the primer. Waited 2 more days, applied
coat one. After 2 more days, coat two. Sheesh. It wasn't bad prep or
moisture, it was lousy paint. Hilary

Your anger is misplaced Hilary.

I assume you used oil-based primer on the knots. 4 days is not long
enough after power washing to be using oil-based primer.

Anger??? What anger?

The "IDIOT" anger. The "Sheesh" anger.

Whatever. No, I did NOT use the oil-based knot
sealer, I used the latex Bin stuff recommended by the Behr paint can.

In your post to which I was responding, you said:

"Then we used Bin (or Kilz, or whatever Behr recommended) on the knots,
Behr latex exterior primer"

This sounds like you used BIN or Kilz on the knots, and Behr latex
primer on the rest of the wood. Two different primers. The usual
reason for using spot primer on the knots is because oil primer works
better than latex primer on knots. That's why most knot primer is
oil-based. That's why I assumed that the spot primer you used on the
knots was oil-based.

Are you sure the knot-primer you used was water-based? The way you
stated it ("or whatever Behr recommended") sure makes it sound like you
didn't recall clearly what product you used. If it was indeed an oil
primer, that might help explain the problem you experienced.

Ether Jones wrote:
wrote:
Ether Jones wrote:
wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On 18 Sep 2006 21:20:03 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
quickly quoth:

Well...according to the supplier it was "ready to paint", but we put it
up, caulked, waited three weeks, then lightly sanded and powerwashed
it. Then we used Bin (or Kilz, or whatever Behr recommended) on the
knots, Behr latex exterior primer, and 2 coats of Behr exterior
"Premium Plus". We also had one wall of a carport painted at the same
time as the shed (right next to each other), and it already had a
perfectly serviceable coat of paint. Since the shed was to be a
different color, we powerwashed the carport wall as well, and painted
it. It had EXACTLY the same amount of peeling as the new siding in the
same amount of time.

Don't you see the key? You powerwashed then painted. Paint doesn't
like moisture. You mentioned waiting 3 weeks the first time but didn't
mention any wait prior to painting after powerwashing.

No, that's NOT the key. I didn't mention waiting 4 (sunny) days between
powerwashing and beginning to paint because, well, only a complete
IDIOT would start the prep with the wood still wet. Same reason I
originally failed to mention leaving the raw wood for several weeks,
only an IDIOT paints green wood. We waited 4 days, applied the Bin,
waited 2 more days, applied the primer. Waited 2 more days, applied
coat one. After 2 more days, coat two. Sheesh. It wasn't bad prep or
moisture, it was lousy paint. Hilary

Your anger is misplaced Hilary.

I assume you used oil-based primer on the knots. 4 days is not long
enough after power washing to be using oil-based primer.

Anger??? What anger?

The "IDIOT" anger. The "Sheesh" anger.

Whatever. No, I did NOT use the oil-based knot
sealer, I used the latex Bin stuff recommended by the Behr paint can.

In your post to which I was responding, you said:

"Then we used Bin (or Kilz, or whatever Behr recommended) on the knots,
Behr latex exterior primer"

This sounds like you used BIN or Kilz on the knots, and Behr latex
primer on the rest of the wood. Two different primers. The usual
reason for using spot primer on the knots is because oil primer works
better than latex primer on knots. That's why most knot primer is
oil-based. That's why I assumed that the spot primer you used on the
knots was oil-based.

Are you sure the knot-primer you used was water-based? The way you
stated it ("or whatever Behr recommended") sure makes it sound like you
didn't recall clearly what product you used. If it was indeed an oil
primer, that might help explain the problem you experienced.

Yes...I'm sure. I know because I can read a can of paint. I know what
it is because it's the same stuff I'm using now - Bin latex. I still
had an old can of it in the garage, and it's the same as what was
recommended by the California paint people (my local paint guy called
them to ask). Yes, we are using it just on the knots, and we prime over
both the wood and the Bin. I know it's water based because it cleans up
with just water and a little ammonia. Stinky, but cleans up fast. The
boards are dry to the touch in an hour and can supposedly be primed the
next day, although I wait at least 48 hours. For this current paint job
I KNOW the wood is dry (not green, etc.) because the clapboards sat in
my garage for 6 months before we were ready to put up the siding.
Again, I've been painting exterior structures for more than 40 years,
and the only paint I've EVER had start peeling in such a short time was
Behr. I had a contractor paint my house years ago with some big box
brand (he supplied the paint - I was SO stupid!) and it lasted less
than 2 years. I found an old paint can in the garage recently that was
the same color as that job, and lo and behold, that was Behr paint,
too! It wasn't even the "Premium" stuff, so yeah, I really think that
there's a huge difference in quality and results when it comes to
paint. H

wrote:
Ether Jones wrote:
wrote:
Ether Jones wrote:
wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On 18 Sep 2006 21:20:03 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
quickly quoth:

Well...according to the supplier it was "ready to paint", but we put it
up, caulked, waited three weeks, then lightly sanded and powerwashed
it. Then we used Bin (or Kilz, or whatever Behr recommended) on the
knots, Behr latex exterior primer, and 2 coats of Behr exterior
"Premium Plus". We also had one wall of a carport painted at the same
time as the shed (right next to each other), and it already had a
perfectly serviceable coat of paint. Since the shed was to be a
different color, we powerwashed the carport wall as well, and painted
it. It had EXACTLY the same amount of peeling as the new siding in the
same amount of time.

Don't you see the key? You powerwashed then painted. Paint doesn't
like moisture. You mentioned waiting 3 weeks the first time but didn't
mention any wait prior to painting after powerwashing.

No, that's NOT the key. I didn't mention waiting 4 (sunny) days between
powerwashing and beginning to paint because, well, only a complete
IDIOT would start the prep with the wood still wet. Same reason I
originally failed to mention leaving the raw wood for several weeks,
only an IDIOT paints green wood. We waited 4 days, applied the Bin,
waited 2 more days, applied the primer. Waited 2 more days, applied
coat one. After 2 more days, coat two. Sheesh. It wasn't bad prep or
moisture, it was lousy paint. Hilary

Your anger is misplaced Hilary.

I assume you used oil-based primer on the knots. 4 days is not long
enough after power washing to be using oil-based primer.

Anger??? What anger?

The "IDIOT" anger. The "Sheesh" anger.

Whatever. No, I did NOT use the oil-based knot
sealer, I used the latex Bin stuff recommended by the Behr paint can.

In your post to which I was responding, you said:

"Then we used Bin (or Kilz, or whatever Behr recommended) on the knots,
Behr latex exterior primer"

This sounds like you used BIN or Kilz on the knots, and Behr latex
primer on the rest of the wood. Two different primers. The usual
reason for using spot primer on the knots is because oil primer works
better than latex primer on knots. That's why most knot primer is
oil-based. That's why I assumed that the spot primer you used on the
knots was oil-based.

Are you sure the knot-primer you used was water-based? The way you
stated it ("or whatever Behr recommended") sure makes it sound like you
didn't recall clearly what product you used. If it was indeed an oil
primer, that might help explain the problem you experienced.

Yes...I'm sure. I know because I can read a can of paint. I know what
it is because it's the same stuff I'm using now - Bin latex. I still
had an old can of it in the garage, and it's the same as what was
recommended by the California paint people (my local paint guy called
them to ask). Yes, we are using it just on the knots, and we prime over
both the wood and the Bin. I know it's water based because it cleans up
with just water and a little ammonia. Stinky, but cleans up fast. The
boards are dry to the touch in an hour and can supposedly be primed the
next day, although I wait at least 48 hours. For this current paint job
I KNOW the wood is dry (not green, etc.) because the clapboards sat in
my garage for 6 months before we were ready to put up the siding.
Again, I've been painting exterior structures for more than 40 years,
and the only paint I've EVER had start peeling in such a short time was
Behr. I had a contractor paint my house years ago with some big box
brand (he supplied the paint - I was SO stupid!) and it lasted less
than 2 years. I found an old paint can in the garage recently that was
the same color as that job, and lo and behold, that was Behr paint,
too! It wasn't even the "Premium" stuff, so yeah, I really think that
there's a huge difference in quality and results when it comes to
paint. H

Back to the shed: what exactly is peeling? Is the paint peeling from
the primer (and the primer is still adhering to the wood), or is the
primer peeling from the wood (and the paint is still adhering to the
primer)? The difference is important.

I'm assuming the primer and the topcoat paint are different colors so
you can see the difference.

"Ether Jones" wrote in message
ups.com...

Paying $28 for a gallon of paint doesn't guarantee that you're getting
good paint.

Assuming it's the right paint for the job, it pretty much does.

Paying $15 for a gallon of paint doesn't guarantee that you're getting
junk paint.

"Junk" paint, no, not necessarily. But just because a store has "buying
power" does not turn $15 paint into $30 paint. It's just not possible to
use the same ingredients for that price.

How much do you think it costs the manufacturer to make a gallon of
good quality latex paint? What percentage of the price you pay do you
think is the actual cost of making the paint?

Obviously it's partly the research that went into developing the paint.
It's also the superior and higher concentration of materils, such as 100%
acrylic, etc.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

Here, BM-labelled paint is pretty much all the same stuff.

That makes no sense.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
So far as what it looks like after painting, I always say...

Walk into a house - any house and tell me what brand of paint they used.

Was it Ralph Loren, Walmart, or you can't tell what brand?

You absolutely cannot tell the brand. But sometimes you can tell the
quality, and sometimes not. Quality affects different things. For example,
how many coats it takes, or how much you have to cover or clean up because
of high splatter. But you can't tell those things after the job is done, if
the job was done right.

On the other hand, if the paint looks dirty and worn and can't be cleaned
well after only a short time, then it was probably cheap paint. But the
people who paid for it and lived with it will know. So, your "point" is
moot.

"trbo20" wrote in message
ups.com...
Then
consider that the price difference between a top-shelf paint and a
low-end paint is about $30 / room. In the grand scheme of things, it's
not a lot of money.

Actually, it's usually $0 when you can put it on in one coat rather than 2.

jeffc wrote:

But just because a store has "buying
power" does not turn $15 paint into $30 paint. It's just not possible to
use the same ingredients for that price.

How do you know this? Do you have data on the manufacturer's cost for
binder, pigments, and fillers? Where did you get the data?


How much do you think it costs the manufacturer to make a gallon of
good quality latex paint? What percentage of the price you pay do you
think is the actual cost of making the paint?

Obviously it's partly the research that went into developing the paint.
It's also the superior and higher concentration of materils, such as 100%
acrylic, etc.

You can walk into the big-box stores and buy 100% acrylic (with the
exact same CAS number as the $30 paint) for under $15. It's too bad
they're not required by law to list percentages in addition to CAS
numbers. It would make comparison shopping a whole lot less mysterious
and anecdotal.

I must have two dozen different paints and primers in my basement.
Some of the very inexpensive ones are quite good.

"Ether Jones" wrote in
oups.com:


Al Bundy wrote:
"Ether Jones" wrote in
ups.com:


Al Bundy wrote:

But $15 Walmart paint is $15 Walmart paint.

Why, just because?

With their massive purchasing power WalMart has huge clout. No
other company is in a better position to sell quality paint
inexpensively.

That doesn't mean everything at WalMart is a quality product - far
from it. But conversely, just because something is sold at WalMart
doesn't mean it is an inferior product.

Check out the July 06 issue of Consumer Reports. McCloskey
Multi-Use is highly rated. McCloskey's "Multi-Use" line is (or
was) marketed exclusively by WalMart. It sells for about $13/gal.




Why, just because?


I tried some of the Color Place exterior white slightly tinted on not
too picky trim. The trim was white to start with. It took two coats
to get a decent cover. It was just try it, what the hell. I knew
better.

So, "$15 Walmart paint", Color Place line.

As I said, "That doesn't mean everything at WalMart is a quality
product - far from it"

I bought 2 gallons of ColorPlace exterior satin off-white latex 4
years ago at WalMart and did my wrap-around porch railings and posts.
One coat did the job; still looks great. I understand that recently
the manufacturer of the ColorPlace line was changed. So, if your
experience is typical, the paint is no longer very good quality.

So, you've got to shop around and get up-to-date infomation from
people who know the score. Paying $30 for a gallon of paint doesn't
guarantee you're getting good paint; paying $15 for a gallon doesn't
guarantee you're getting junk paint.

The old addage "you get what you pay for" is true more often than not,
but not always.




Fully agree with all that!

Tony Hwang wrote in
news:X0UPg.556589$iF6.411649@pd7tw2no:

Stubby wrote:


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

Talk to the owner of a good established paint store. Most

wont carry crap because they are personally seeing the people if
things go wrong, not like the big box store.

This is clearly wrong. A store owner, and I did operate a retail
business,
wants to stock what sells. That's why cheap products exist in the
first place.

Hi,
To adegree, I am running a small business too. But I have a reputation
and customer loyalty to look out. Any how my customers concern is not
the cost, the quality and good experienced information.
How about, cheap people buy cheap?



How about, cheap people buy cheap?

Ya gotta give 'em that one folks...:-)

trbo20 wrote:
Ether Jones wrote:
trbo20 wrote:

Another thing to note here is that many paints are made by the same
manufacturer. Sears Weatherbeater, Walmart Color Place, and Dutch Boy
are all Sherwin Williams under the lid.

How do you know that ColorPlace is made by SW? There's nothing
anywhere on the label.

I used to mix paint for a living and would attend training sessions
given by a Sherwin Williams rep annually. A lot of paints are made by
them. I suspect they like to keep their name off the label so that
their reputation isn't tarnished by cheap paint outlets.

What I was told was that they would mix the additive ratio to
specificatioins, and create a color mixing system for the chain.
Sherwin Williams could sell all the bottom shelf paint they wanted
without hurting their name as long as they were willing to give up the
retail profits and only collect on the wholesale.

I know Wal-Mart paint used to be made by a subsidiary of Sherwin
Williams called "United Coatings". In answering your question, I
don't know that they still do anymore. A Google search yielded
recent MSDS that specifically stated United Coatings no longer made
Wal-Mart paint, so it appears I may have been wrong on that.

I'd be curious to know who is making their paint now. It may still be
Sherwin Williams, I just can't find anything definitive on it.

I just got off the phone with ColorPlace tech support. I called the
number listed on one of the gallons of their latex porch floor paint I
had in the basement. I asked the guy who makes their paint. He told
me Sherwin Williams.

That's just one data point, and I wouldn't take it to the bank. While
I was on the phone with him, I asked about the application directions
listed on the label. The label said to use an oil-based primer to
prime bare wood before applying the paint. Now, WalMart doesn't sell
an oil-based primer rated for horizontal wood surfaces exposed to
weather and foot traffic, so what am I supposed to use? He recommended
I pick something up at Lowe's. I had already looked at all the primers
at Lowe's and I've yet to find one that is rated for foot traffic. I
thanked him and said good-day.

Now this is VERY interesting, because about a week ago I had a
conversation with Sherwin Williams tech support about some porch floor
paint they make for the local DoItBest hardware/paint store here in
town. This stuff costs $25 per gallon, and nowhere on the label did it
mention priming. So I asked whether this was an oversight, or if they
really didn't want me to prime the wood. The answer: DON'T prime the
wood. Reason: their research shows that their porch floor latex holds
up better when applied to bare wood. The primers don't hold up well to
the foot traffic combined with the expansion/contraction of the wood
due to moisture, and the primer tends to separate from the wood.

This parallels my own personal experience. I oil-primed and
latex-topcoated some porch steps two years ago (because that's what the
label said to do), and the primer blistered off within a year. So this
year I hand-scraped and power-washed the steps and the breezeway, and
put down the porch floor latex without any primer. It should be
interesting to see what happens.

Just for clarification, BIN is a product of the Zinsser company. It
is neither an oil-based primer nor a latex primer, but a pigmented
shellac and normally recommended for interior use. Zinsser makes
several other primers including "123", a latex interior/exterior
primer, and "Coverstain", an oil-based int/ext primer.

Kilz is a brand name of MasterChem Industries. They make several oil
based and latex based products that use 'Kilz' in the name.




--
Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work.

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
lwasserm(@)charm(.)net

wrote:
Just for clarification, BIN is a product of the Zinsser company. It
is neither an oil-based primer nor a latex primer, but a pigmented
shellac and normally recommended for interior use. Zinsser makes
several other primers including "123", a latex interior/exterior
primer, and "Coverstain", an oil-based int/ext primer.

Kilz is a brand name of MasterChem Industries. They make several oil
based and latex based products that use 'Kilz' in the name.

Does either Zinsser or MasterChem make a water-base primer rated for
horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and heavy foot traffic?

In article .com,
Ether Jones wrote:

wrote:
Just for clarification, BIN is a product of the Zinsser company. It
is neither an oil-based primer nor a latex primer, but a pigmented
shellac and normally recommended for interior use. Zinsser makes
several other primers including "123", a latex interior/exterior
primer, and "Coverstain", an oil-based int/ext primer.

Kilz is a brand name of MasterChem Industries. They make several oil
based and latex based products that use 'Kilz' in the name.

Does either Zinsser or MasterChem make a water-base primer rated for
horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and heavy foot traffic?


Sorry, you'll have to do your own research to answer that one Both
their websites are easy to find, and I recall getting a prompt email
response from Zinsser a few years ago.
--
Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work.

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
lwasserm(@)charm(.)net

wrote:
In article .com,
Ether Jones wrote:

wrote:
Just for clarification, BIN is a product of the Zinsser company. It
is neither an oil-based primer nor a latex primer, but a pigmented
shellac and normally recommended for interior use. Zinsser makes
several other primers including "123", a latex interior/exterior
primer, and "Coverstain", an oil-based int/ext primer.

Kilz is a brand name of MasterChem Industries. They make several oil
based and latex based products that use 'Kilz' in the name.

Does either Zinsser or MasterChem make a water-base primer rated for
horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and heavy foot traffic?


Sorry, you'll have to do your own research to answer that one Both
their websites are easy to find, and I recall getting a prompt email
response from Zinsser a few years ago.

I've already checked the websites and the store shelves. I've yet to
find a water-base primer from any company that's explicitly rated for
horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and foot traffic. You
seemed knowledgeable; thought maybe there was some street wisdom that
one of their products could be successfully used in that type of
application, even though the labelling didn't explicitly indicate such.

Zinsser owns Wolman. Wolman makes a product called "Woodlife Classic".
Ever heard of it?

According to jeffc :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

Here, BM-labelled paint is pretty much all the same stuff.

That makes no sense.

In the sense that BM _here_ doesn't appear to have multiple _grades_
of paint labelled as "Benjamin Moore". There's one grade labelled
"Benjamin Moore" (with different names for flat vs. satin etc),
and the other is labeled "Para".
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I just got off the phone with ColorPlace tech support. I called the
number listed on one of the gallons of their latex porch floor paint I
had in the basement. I asked the guy who makes their paint. He told
me Sherwin Williams.

That's just one data point, and I wouldn't take it to the bank. While
I was on the phone with him, I asked about the application directions
listed on the label. The label said to use an oil-based primer to
prime bare wood before applying the paint. Now, WalMart doesn't sell
an oil-based primer rated for horizontal wood surfaces exposed to
weather and foot traffic, so what am I supposed to use? He recommended
I pick something up at Lowe's. I had already looked at all the primers
at Lowe's and I've yet to find one that is rated for foot traffic. I
thanked him and said good-day.

Now this is VERY interesting, because about a week ago I had a
conversation with Sherwin Williams tech support about some porch floor
paint they make for the local DoItBest hardware/paint store here in
town. This stuff costs $25 per gallon, and nowhere on the label did it
mention priming. So I asked whether this was an oversight, or if they
really didn't want me to prime the wood. The answer: DON'T prime the
wood. Reason: their research shows that their porch floor latex holds
up better when applied to bare wood. The primers don't hold up well to
the foot traffic combined with the expansion/contraction of the wood
due to moisture, and the primer tends to separate from the wood.

This parallels my own personal experience. I oil-primed and
latex-topcoated some porch steps two years ago (because that's what the
label said to do), and the primer blistered off within a year. So this
year I hand-scraped and power-washed the steps and the breezeway, and
put down the porch floor latex without any primer. It should be
interesting to see what happens.

Wow, that is very interesting. Not using a primer on bare wood goes
against everything I've ever heard on the topic. My personal
experience is that the oil primer holds and the paint wears off. I
pretty much just accept that my porch needs to be top coated every two
years. I've always assumed that porch floor coating is an area that
modern materials science still hasn't found the ideal solution for.

I know with oil primer that's it's crucial that your wood be bone dry.
Any moisture will interfere with adhesion and penetration. This is
often a problem with horizontal wood, especially when it's not
properly sloped and shaded from direct sunlight by a porch roof.

Thanks for sharing the follow-up.

trbo20 wrote:

My personal
experience is that the oil primer holds and the paint wears off. I
pretty much just accept that my porch needs to be top coated every two
years.

I wouldn't mind topcoating the porch floor every two years, just as
long as I didn't have to get down on my hands and knees for hours
scraping off blistering primer. What a mess!

What oil primer did you use, and what kind of wood do you have?

According to Ether Jones :

trbo20 wrote:

My personal
experience is that the oil primer holds and the paint wears off. I
pretty much just accept that my porch needs to be top coated every two
years.

I wouldn't mind topcoating the porch floor every two years, just as
long as I didn't have to get down on my hands and knees for hours
scraping off blistering primer. What a mess!

What oil primer did you use, and what kind of wood do you have?

Transparent stains don't need primer, and won't blister or flake.
So you just have to topcoat.

Solid stains generally don't need primer either, and a _good_ one
won't flake, so topcoating is fine.

For insurance, we always use transparent stain for decking, and
solid stain for verticals and railings.

We've not had to scrape anything. Yet...
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I wouldn't mind topcoating the porch floor every two years, just as
long as I didn't have to get down on my hands and knees for hours
scraping off blistering primer. What a mess!

What oil primer did you use, and what kind of wood do you have?

I'm not sure I remember, but I'm guessing it was just Sears
Weatherbeater oil because that's what I have in my basement at the
moment. I usually use that for exterior priming, although I understand
that BM makes a much better product. As for the wood type, again, I'm
not sure. I'm guessing it's just ordinary tongue and groove pine.

If you really want to make your paint job last, you might look into
some industrial priming solutions. There's something called Aluthane
that is supposed to be perfect for less than ideal wood surface
conditions. From what I've read on it, it doesn't readily accept a
latex top coat but a good scratch sanding might help that.

trbo20 wrote:
I wouldn't mind topcoating the porch floor every two years, just as
long as I didn't have to get down on my hands and knees for hours
scraping off blistering primer. What a mess!

What oil primer did you use, and what kind of wood do you have?

I'm not sure I remember, but I'm guessing it was just Sears
Weatherbeater oil because that's what I have in my basement at the
moment. I usually use that for exterior priming, although I understand
that BM makes a much better product. As for the wood type, again, I'm
not sure. I'm guessing it's just ordinary tongue and groove pine.

If you really want to make your paint job last, you might look into
some industrial priming solutions. There's something called Aluthane
that is supposed to be perfect for less than ideal wood surface
conditions. From what I've read on it, it doesn't readily accept a
latex top coat but a good scratch sanding might help that.

I just found a product by Wolman called "Woodlife Classic". It is a
water-base clear wood sealer that is latex-paintable. I called Wolman
tech support and they assured me that it is rated for horizontal
surfaces with foot traffic.

Has anybody had any experience with this product? My intent would be
to use it to seal the nooks and crannies in my weathered wood porch
floor (e.g between boards and at the base of railing posts where they
sit on the porch floor) before topcoating with a quality latex porch
floor paint.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Ether Jones :

trbo20 wrote:

My personal
experience is that the oil primer holds and the paint wears off. I
pretty much just accept that my porch needs to be top coated every two
years.

I wouldn't mind topcoating the porch floor every two years, just as
long as I didn't have to get down on my hands and knees for hours
scraping off blistering primer. What a mess!

What oil primer did you use, and what kind of wood do you have?

Transparent stains don't need primer, and won't blister or flake.
So you just have to topcoat.

Are you suggesting that I can "prime" the bare wood with a transparent
stain, and then put latex topcoat over that?

Solid stains generally don't need primer either, and a _good_ one
won't flake, so topcoating is fine.

Well, everything I ever read or was told by "tech support" people is
contrary to that (topcoating stain).

Nevertheless, several weeks ago I used Cabot semi-solid stain under a
latex topcoat on some porch steps just to see how ot would hold up
compared to past efforts. I'll have a pretty good idea next Spring.


For insurance, we always use transparent stain for decking,

I want to make sure I understand correctly what you are saying. Are
you saying you put down transparent stain, then latex topcoat over
that, on the deck surface?

and
solid stain for verticals and railings.

We've not had to scrape anything. Yet...

I use "toner" stain (between clear and semi-transparent) on my deck and
of course there's no peeling or blistering. I just have to re-apply
ever couple of years. I don't mind that.

But on my exposed wrap-around porch, the previous owner had painted it
to compliment the house color, so I don't have the option of reverting
to stain. Stripping the entire porch back to bare wood is out of the
question. It's over 60 feet long and 8 feet wide.

According to Ether Jones :

Chris Lewis wrote:

Transparent stains don't need primer, and won't blister or flake.
So you just have to topcoat.

Are you suggesting that I can "prime" the bare wood with a transparent
stain, and then put latex topcoat over that?

No. We don't paint outdoor decking/structure. The transparent (or
opaque) stain _is_ the finish coat. When they wear thin, we just
add another layer or two.

For insurance, we always use transparent stain for decking,

I want to make sure I understand correctly what you are saying. Are
you saying you put down transparent stain, then latex topcoat over
that, on the deck surface?

Nope ;-)

and
solid stain for verticals and railings.

We've not had to scrape anything. Yet...

I use "toner" stain (between clear and semi-transparent) on my deck and
of course there's no peeling or blistering. I just have to re-apply
ever couple of years. I don't mind that.

But on my exposed wrap-around porch, the previous owner had painted it
to compliment the house color, so I don't have the option of reverting
to stain. Stripping the entire porch back to bare wood is out of the
question. It's over 60 feet long and 8 feet wide.

I think you're doomed to scrape.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article . com,
Ether Jones wrote:

...snipped...
I've already checked the websites and the store shelves. I've yet to
find a water-base primer from any company that's explicitly rated for
horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and foot traffic. You
seemed knowledgeable; thought maybe there was some street wisdom that
one of their products could be successfully used in that type of
application, even though the labelling didn't explicitly indicate such.

Zinsser owns Wolman. Wolman makes a product called "Woodlife Classic".
Ever heard of it?


I've heard of Wolman but am not familiar with any specific products.
I gether that you are intent on using a latex product for your
application. If you would consider another type, I would recommend a
good quality, exterior rated oil-based poly floor paint. Over bare
wood many of these products recommend priming by simply using a
slightly thinned coat of the same porduct. I have had good results and
long wear from these on outdoor porches over the years.

Although, I recently heard that many such items are being taken off
the market in my area for environmental reasons. Does that have
anything to do with your need to use a latex floor paint?

--
Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work.

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
lwasserm(@)charm(.)net

wrote:
In article . com,
Ether Jones wrote:

...snipped...
I've already checked the websites and the store shelves. I've yet to
find a water-base primer from any company that's explicitly rated for
horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and foot traffic. You
seemed knowledgeable; thought maybe there was some street wisdom that
one of their products could be successfully used in that type of
application, even though the labelling didn't explicitly indicate such.

Zinsser owns Wolman. Wolman makes a product called "Woodlife Classic".
Ever heard of it?


I've heard of Wolman but am not familiar with any specific products.
I gether that you are intent on using a latex product for your
application. If you would consider another type, I would recommend a
good quality, exterior rated oil-based poly floor paint. Over bare
wood many of these products recommend priming by simply using a
slightly thinned coat of the same porduct. I have had good results and
long wear from these on outdoor porches over the years.

Although, I recently heard that many such items are being taken off
the market in my area for environmental reasons. Does that have
anything to do with your need to use a latex floor paint?

No. The reason for preferring latex has to do with the particular
application requirements. In my experience, oil-base products are
VERY sensitive to moisture in the wood. With the exception of July
and maybe August, it's difficult to find enough warm dry days in a row
to make sure the wood is absolutely bone dry. Latex is far more
forgiving with regard to slight moisture in the wood.

In over 25 years of professional painting experience I have used many
brands of paint. Overall I prefer Benjamin Moore for many reasons. I
actually end up saving money [even though the paint costs more per
gallon than average paint] because I need less, I don't need to recoat
to get a good hide. I recently tried Behr paint (homeowner bought it)
and it was so bad I got a full refund for the client. I have had
similar experience with Glidden, except their primers seem to be pretty
good.

Rodda, Parker Paint, and Sherwin Williams are all "ok" paint but truly
nothing comes close to Ben Moore.

Jeff




Scott Townsend wrote:
Kelly Moore, Benjamin Moore, Sherman William, Glidden, Berr, Etc...

In Painting the Exterior of a house, is there really that big of a
Difference in the Paint itself, or are we just talking colors or?

I was recommended some Benjamin Moore paint and for this project I need to
cut some costs. Will Glidden or Home Depot Paint work just as well?

Thanks,
Scott-

jeffreydesign wrote:
In over 25 years of professional painting experience I have used many
brands of paint. Overall I prefer Benjamin Moore for many reasons. I
actually end up saving money [even though the paint costs more per
gallon than average paint] because I need less, I don't need to recoat
to get a good hide. I recently tried Behr paint (homeowner bought it)
and it was so bad I got a full refund for the client. I have had
similar experience with Glidden, except their primers seem to be pretty
good.

Rodda, Parker Paint, and Sherwin Williams are all "ok" paint but truly
nothing comes close to Ben Moore.

A lot of folks have praised Benjamin Moore paint but they all seem to
cite the same reason: it hides well. How well a paint "hides" during
initial application is only one measure of the quality of the paint.
Equally important, or arguably far more important, is how well does it
hold up over time. How does the fading and peeling resistance of
Benjamin Moore compare to the competition? That's tougher to answer, I
know, but it's a more important consideration for many people than
whether or not you have to go over it a second time.

Ether Jones wrote:

A lot of folks have praised Benjamin Moore paint but they all seem to
cite the same reason: it hides well. How well a paint "hides" during
initial application is only one measure of the quality of the paint.
Equally important, or arguably far more important, is how well does it
hold up over time. How does the fading and peeling resistance of
Benjamin Moore compare to the competition? That's tougher to answer, I
know, but it's a more important consideration for many people than
whether or not you have to go over it a second time.

I've never understood the "hides well" argument. I rarely change
exterior colors so that's never a problem for re-painting, but for new
wood, doesn't everyone use a primer the same color or a touch lighter
than the final paint color? I'm painting my house a deep red (same as
before) and California makes a colored primer called "Russet", which is
a shade lighter than the paint. I'm getting fantastic results with one
coat of primer and one coat of paint. We'll see how it lasts. Even when
I couldn't get a pre-mixed colored primer I had tint added to the
primer to make it the right shade. I've always done it this way. Isn't
this standard practice? What am I missing? Hilary

"jeffreydesign" wrote in message
oups.com...
In over 25 years of professional painting experience I have used many
brands of paint. Overall I prefer Benjamin Moore for many reasons. I
actually end up saving money [even though the paint costs more per
gallon than average paint] because I need less, I don't need to recoat
to get a good hide. I recently tried Behr paint (homeowner bought it)
and it was so bad I got a full refund for the client. I have had
similar experience with Glidden, except their primers seem to be pretty
good.

Rodda, Parker Paint, and Sherwin Williams are all "ok" paint but truly
nothing comes close to Ben Moore.

All "ok" huh. Why don't you mention specifically which paint products
you're talking about so we know what you're saying. For someone with 25
years of "professional" painting experience, you're about as vague as you
can be. It's like saying Chevrolet cars are the fastest. Downright
meaningless.

jim evans wrote:
On 21 Sep 2006 07:45:34 -0700, wrote:


Ether Jones wrote:

A lot of folks have praised Benjamin Moore paint but they all seem to
cite the same reason: it hides well. How well a paint "hides" during
initial application is only one measure of the quality of the paint.
Equally important, or arguably far more important, is how well does it
hold up over time.

snip

'm painting my house a deep red (same as
before) and California makes a colored primer called "Russet", which is
a shade lighter than the paint. I'm getting fantastic results with one
coat of primer and one coat of paint.

Consumer Reports rates Benjamin Moore poor. They rate California
paint top notch. Shame we can't buy California paint in Texas.

-- jim

I consider myself INCREDIBLY lucky that the California paint
distributor is closer to my house than any other brand name paint
distributor or any big box store. The price is about $39/gallon, but
hey, who cares about the cost of the paint when the real cost is the
time and effort in prep. If it really lasts the 10 years Consumer
Reports says it can, then it's money VERY well spent. The fact that it
goes on smoothly with no drips or splatters and covers beautifully in
one coat doesn't upset me either
Hilary

On 20 Sep 2006 21:55:25 -0700, "jeffreydesign"
wrote:

In over 25 years of professional painting experience I have used many
brands of paint. Overall I prefer Benjamin Moore for many reasons. I
actually end up saving money [even though the paint costs more per
gallon than average paint] because I need less, I don't need to recoat
to get a good hide. I recently tried Behr paint (homeowner bought it)
and it was so bad I got a full refund for the client. I have had
similar experience with Glidden, except their primers seem to be pretty
good.

Rodda, Parker Paint, and Sherwin Williams are all "ok" paint but truly
nothing comes close to Ben Moore.

Jeff



I've heard the above claim for years that Benjamin Moore paint was
the best.

As a professional landlord who does as much interior and exterior
painting as many painting professionals, I just don't see it.

Benjamin Moore's interior paints are overpriced and don't perform as
well as some lower prices varieties.

Their exterior paints are Ok - just OK in my opinion.
I've had terrible luck with some of their porch and deck paints
compared with other brands, and yes, I'm talking about using the same
appication techniques.

For exterior stains, I've have found that the Behr 10 year solid color
stains are excellent.

Some of the Benjamin Moore semi-gloss exterior trim paint that I've
used weathered no better than the Gidden. But the Glidden was only 60%
of the Benjamin Moore's price.

Professional painters have often bragged to me about the quality of
the paint that they used or the quality of their jobs. However, do
they truly go back to examine their work 3 or 5 years later?

I hired one such painter to do exterior work at one of my rental
buildings. He used finish paint on bare wood without priming. He
argued with me saying that his 25 years of experience proved his
quality. I asked him for another reference. After driving to that
reference where he had done the same thing on window sills (no
primer), I noted that after just two years, his prior job was peeling
on all the sills.

I then fired him...

Want an exterior paint job that will truly last?
Prime the wood with pure linseed oil, wait the month it will take to
dry and then finish with a top coat of oil paint.
Of course, the above isn't too practical in most cases....
:-)


Doug

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:14:42 GMT, Doug
wrote:

[...]

Want an exterior paint job that will truly last?
Prime the wood with pure linseed oil, wait the month it will take to
dry and then finish with a top coat of oil paint.
Of course, the above isn't too practical in most cases....
:-)

Sigh! Whom to believe?

I had always thought oil paint best for exterior wood.
But was told it is not as flexible as acrylic, so might crack/peel
over time. I have to do ALL my wretched, miserable-looking window
wood trim, so want best bang for my buck.

???

Aspasia

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:32:38 -0500, jim evans
wrote:

On 21 Sep 2006 07:45:34 -0700, wrote:


Ether Jones wrote:

A lot of folks have praised Benjamin Moore paint but they all seem to
cite the same reason: it hides well. How well a paint "hides" during
initial application is only one measure of the quality of the paint.
Equally important, or arguably far more important, is how well does it
hold up over time.

snip

'm painting my house a deep red (same as
before) and California makes a colored primer called "Russet", which is
a shade lighter than the paint. I'm getting fantastic results with one
coat of primer and one coat of paint.

Consumer Reports rates Benjamin Moore poor.

Which type of paint? Indoor? Exterior? Oil? Acrylic?

Which isssue of Consumer Reports?

They rate California
paint top notch. Shame we can't buy California paint in Texas.

Can't buy it in California either, AFAIK. I checked dealer locations;
none in Calif.

Wonder why? Environmtenal regs? Anybody know?

Aspasia

aspasia wrote in message
Sigh! Whom to believe?

I had always thought oil paint best for exterior wood.
But was told it is not as flexible as acrylic, so might crack/peel
over time. I have to do ALL my wretched, miserable-looking window
wood trim, so want best bang for my buck.

It does not matter is some areas. Oil based paints are being phased out due
to the VOC in them.

aspasia wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:14:42 GMT, Doug
wrote:

[...]

Want an exterior paint job that will truly last?
Prime the wood with pure linseed oil, wait the month it will take to
dry and then finish with a top coat of oil paint.
Of course, the above isn't too practical in most cases....
:-)

Sigh! Whom to believe?

I had always thought oil paint best for exterior wood.
But was told it is not as flexible as acrylic, so might crack/peel
over time. I have to do ALL my wretched, miserable-looking window
wood trim, so want best bang for my buck.

If your wood is BONE DRY, and you expect dry warm weather for an entire
week after painting (NO rain or dew etc), and these are all
non-foot-traffic surfaces (like window trim), and there are no exposed
areas of the wood that could absorb moisture (like end cuts that are
inaccessible to paint but water could get in there), then go with oil,
even though it's messier to deal with.

Otherwise, use a high quality 100% acrylic latex; the glossier the
better (as far as durability is concerned; if you need to hide
imperfections then less glossy is better).

aspasia wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:14:42 GMT, Doug
wrote:

[...]

Want an exterior paint job that will truly last?
Prime the wood with pure linseed oil, wait the month it will take to
dry and then finish with a top coat of oil paint.
Of course, the above isn't too practical in most cases....
:-)

Sigh! Whom to believe?

I had always thought oil paint best for exterior wood.
But was told it is not as flexible as acrylic, so might crack/peel
over time. I have to do ALL my wretched, miserable-looking window
wood trim, so want best bang for my buck.

If your wood is BONE DRY, and you expect dry warm weather for an entire
week after painting (NO rain or dew etc), and these are all
non-foot-traffic surfaces (like window trim), and there are no exposed
areas of the wood that could absorb moisture (like end cuts that are
inaccessible to paint but water could get in there), then go with oil,
even though it's messier to deal with.

Otherwise, use a high quality 100% acrylic latex; the glossier the
better (as far as durability is concerned; if you need to hide
imperfections then less glossy is better).

aspasia wrote:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:32:38 -0500, jim evans
wrote:

On 21 Sep 2006 07:45:34 -0700, wrote:

Consumer Reports rates Benjamin Moore poor.

Which type of paint? Indoor? Exterior? Oil? Acrylic?

Which isssue of Consumer Reports?

consumer reports exterior paints rated:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F514214DD

Ether Jones wrote:

aspasia wrote:


On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:32:38 -0500, jim evans
wrote:


On 21 Sep 2006 07:45:34 -0700, wrote:


Consumer Reports rates Benjamin Moore poor.


Which type of paint? Indoor? Exterior? Oil? Acrylic?


Which isssue of Consumer Reports?


consumer reports exterior paints rated:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F514214DD

These are only latex paints tested on wood. Does CR rate alkyd paints
separately, or not at all? Also, most are flat or low-luster. Are
those still popular choices?