My kitchen cabinets are about 15 years old. The frames and doors
are solid wood (oak?) although the end panels appear to be veneered
plywood. They were apparently finished with an oil-based poly and
do have an ambered appearance.

The doors are in pretty good shape -- a few have some grease marks
and water stains mainly along the top edge. In a few cases, the
old poly has flaked off.

The frames are structurally great but the finish is in poor shape
with a lot of flaking.

I'd like to give them a makeover but stripping or sanding the
entire surface area down to bare wood is daunting. Therefore,
I'm considering a hybrid approach and would welcome any comments
or suggestions.

Frames:
1. Clean to remove all grease
2. Sand to bare wood
3. Stain? A quick test (few square inches) suggests this may
not be necessary for a decent match. But perhaps it will
help the appearance and give a better bonding surface for
the poly?
4. Apply 3 coats of Minwax Polycrylic Gloss
5. Lightly sand -- I'll probably use one of those scotchbright things
6. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Satin

Doors:
1. Use a "deglosser" product to clean/etch the surface
2. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Gloss
3. Lightly sand -- I'll probably use one of those scotchbright things
4. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Satin

An oil based poly may be slightly more durable but the Minwax
product seems almost as good and a *lot* more convenient.

Obviously, there's potential for a mismatch between the doors and
the frames. I can certainly live with that if it's minor.

Comments and suggestions much appreciated.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Malcolm Hoar wrote:
An oil based poly may be slightly more durable but the Minwax
product seems almost as good and a *lot* more convenient.

You realize that Polycrylic isn't polyurethane (it's acrylic), yes?
You realize that polyurethane is available in a water base, yes?

Myself, I'd choose the polyurethane...


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Malcolm Hoar wrote:
My kitchen cabinets are about 15 years old. The frames and doors
are solid wood (oak?) although the end panels appear to be veneered
plywood. They were apparently finished with an oil-based poly and
do have an ambered appearance.

The doors are in pretty good shape -- a few have some grease marks
and water stains mainly along the top edge. In a few cases, the
old poly has flaked off.

The frames are structurally great but the finish is in poor shape
with a lot of flaking.

I'd like to give them a makeover but stripping or sanding the
entire surface area down to bare wood is daunting. Therefore,
I'm considering a hybrid approach and would welcome any comments
or suggestions.

Frames:
1. Clean to remove all grease
2. Sand to bare wood
3. Stain? A quick test (few square inches) suggests this may
not be necessary for a decent match. But perhaps it will
help the appearance and give a better bonding surface for
the poly?
4. Apply 3 coats of Minwax Polycrylic Gloss
5. Lightly sand -- I'll probably use one of those scotchbright things
6. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Satin

Doors:
1. Use a "deglosser" product to clean/etch the surface
2. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Gloss
3. Lightly sand -- I'll probably use one of those scotchbright things
4. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Satin

An oil based poly may be slightly more durable but the Minwax
product seems almost as good and a *lot* more convenient.

Obviously, there's potential for a mismatch between the doors and
the frames. I can certainly live with that if it's minor.

How many cabinets are there?? Your idea to sand down to bare wood
sounds problematic.
Sanding is an unpleasant job and worth avoiding. For you to sand
down to bare wood will be more difficult than you think. It is
possible you may never be able to sand every bit of the paint off to
the degree that you wil find it to be stainable wood. It is more
likely for you to get it off if you use a paint stripper.

Even then, you may be dissapointed with what you find underneath.
Keep your options open until the stripping and sanding is done. thant
way you can decide, if necessary, to just paint them and call it good.

In article BAZNg.3668$xh3.3226@trnddc01, "dadiOH" wrote:
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
An oil based poly may be slightly more durable but the Minwax
product seems almost as good and a *lot* more convenient.

You realize that Polycrylic isn't polyurethane (it's acrylic), yes?
You realize that polyurethane is available in a water base, yes?

Yes and yes.

Myself, I'd choose the polyurethane...

Water or oil based?

I figure the Minwax Polycrylic will outlast the water based
polyurethane. It's likely not quite as durable as a good
quality oil based polyurethane. But it is more convenient.

I *think* the existing finish is oil based polyurethane but
I could be wrong about that. Another nice feature of the
Polycrylic is that it should be compatible with the existing
finish, whatever was actually used.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article . com, "Lawrence" wrote:

How many cabinets are there??

43 doors and drawer-fronts :-(

Your idea to sand down to bare wood sounds problematic.
Sanding is an unpleasant job and worth avoiding. For you to sand
down to bare wood will be more difficult than you think. It is
possible you may never be able to sand every bit of the paint off to
the degree that you wil find it to be stainable wood. It is more
likely for you to get it off if you use a paint stripper.

I have tried a couple of inconspicuous test spots and
it looks like the frames could be sanded in a couple of
days. Stripper would be my fallback. The surface area is
not that large, it's completely flat (with the doors off)
and the old finish seems to come off pretty easily.

However, sanding the doors down to bare wood looks like it
will take more like a couple of weeks. Using stripper wouldn't
be much more pleasant. Hence, the thought of trying a deglosser
and slapping a new finish on top of the old.

I suspect the existing finish on the doors is different to
that on the frames. The finish on the frames seems thinner
and has shown dramtically more signs of wear and tear.

Even then, you may be dissapointed with what you find underneath.
Keep your options open until the stripping and sanding is done. thant
way you can decide, if necessary, to just paint them and call it good.

That option might require a Family Law attorney ;-)


--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Malcolm Hoar wrote:

Primary considerations:

How many doors and drawers? Flat, flush doors or panel and frame? End
panels .. are you SURE they are veneer and not printed woodgrain? Don't
ask why .... )

All loose finish should be removed. Water stains should be sanded to
clear wood. I would not put satin over gloss .. no point at all (that I
know of) in using the gloss unless you want the finish to be glossy. I
like semi best.

Removing part of the old finish is an iffy task, IMO. Too hard to
foresee how it will look recoated.

You can get the built-up grease with mineral spirits and fine steel
wool, if needed. Toothpicks or whatever to get gunk out of crevices.
Let it dry well or wipe quickly with denatured alcohol.

Don't use 3M on new finish - it is likely to stick if the finish is not
completely cured.

For a project of considerable size, there isn't a whole lot of
difference as to the amount of work or cleanup by choosing oil based
finish vs. water base. I like Minwax fast drying poly, but used it on a
smaller project. Satin has nice amount of gloss and flows on nicely.

With all of the work removing hardware and taking stuff down, it isn't
that much more to strip the clear finish, sand lightly if water stains
still show, and put on 2 or 3 coats of clear finish. Oak is a pretty
deep brown without any stain .. I like it plain )

clipped
I *think* the existing finish is oil based polyurethane but
I could be wrong about that. Another nice feature of the
Polycrylic is that it should be compatible with the existing
finish, whatever was actually used.

Once dry and cured, it doesn't really matter unless the old finish was
just plain oil. Of course, if it is peeling the loose stuff has to go.
Clean, dry, free of dust.....

In article .net, Norminn wrote:
Malcolm Hoar wrote:

Primary considerations:

How many doors and drawers?

33 doors and 10 drawers.

Flat, flush doors or panel and frame?

Panel and frame.

End panels .. are you SURE they are veneer and not printed woodgrain? Don't
ask why .... )

Yes, I am certain they are veneer.

All loose finish should be removed. Water stains should be sanded to
clear wood. I would not put satin over gloss .. no point at all (that I
know of) in using the gloss unless you want the finish to be glossy. I
like semi best.

The thinking is that the undercoats will be as clear as possible.
The satin is only required on the top coat.

Don't use 3M on new finish - it is likely to stick if the finish is not
completely cured.

Good point.

With all of the work removing hardware and taking stuff down, it isn't
that much more to strip the clear finish, sand lightly if water stains
still show, and put on 2 or 3 coats of clear finish. Oak is a pretty
deep brown without any stain .. I like it plain )

There isn't too much hardware -- just the door hinges. Sanding and/or
stripping will be most of the work.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article .net, Norminn wrote:
clipped
I *think* the existing finish is oil based polyurethane but
I could be wrong about that. Another nice feature of the
Polycrylic is that it should be compatible with the existing
finish, whatever was actually used.

Once dry and cured, it doesn't really matter unless the old finish was
just plain oil. Of course, if it is peeling the loose stuff has to go.
Clean, dry, free of dust.....

90% of the surface area is door (versus frame). However, 90% of
the peeling is on the frame.

So the doors are in pretty good shape -- just a touch-up job
here and there. The finish on the cabinet frames is in a fairly
sorry state.

Hence the thought of using different treatments for door .v.
frame.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
I'd like to give them a makeover but stripping or sanding the
entire surface area down to bare wood is daunting. Therefore,
I'm considering a hybrid approach and would welcome any comments
or suggestions.


What worked for me was a good cleaning to get any grease off. Lightly sand
with 220 grit. Put one coat of oil based poly. Lightly sand with 320 grit,
second coat of poly. Done and looks great.

I think you are making more work than needed. Also, I don't understand the
need to put a coat of gloss followed by sating.

In article , "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
I'd like to give them a makeover but stripping or sanding the
entire surface area down to bare wood is daunting. Therefore,
I'm considering a hybrid approach and would welcome any comments
or suggestions.


What worked for me was a good cleaning to get any grease off. Lightly sand
with 220 grit. Put one coat of oil based poly. Lightly sand with 320 grit,
second coat of poly. Done and looks great.

I think this will work for the doors. And it's fairly similar
to my initial strategy. I was wondering about the "deglosser"
as opposed to the cleaning and light sanding. The deglossers
are *supposed* to achieve the same thing.

However, this isn't going to work on my frames. Too much old
poly has flaked off.

I think you are making more work than needed. Also, I don't understand the
need to put a coat of gloss followed by sating.

I've seen several expect recommendations that one should
always use gloss for all of the undercoats. Choose your
top coat according to the finish you want (gloss, satin
or whatever).

It means the undercoats are perfectly clear/transparent.
The satin effect that one might consider desirable for
the top coat is generally undesirable in the deeper
layers of the finish (makes them slighly cloudy).

I've never actually tried this myself but those recommendations
do seem to make sense to me.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Malcolm Hoar wrote:

Myself, I'd choose the polyurethane...

Water or oil based?

Either
__________

I figure the Minwax Polycrylic will outlast the water based
polyurethane.

Not likely.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Malcolm Hoar wrote:

In article BAZNg.3668$xh3.3226@trnddc01, "dadiOH" wrote:

Malcolm Hoar wrote:

An oil based poly may be slightly more durable but the Minwax
product seems almost as good and a *lot* more convenient.

You realize that Polycrylic isn't polyurethane (it's acrylic), yes?
You realize that polyurethane is available in a water base, yes?


Yes and yes.


Myself, I'd choose the polyurethane...


Water or oil based?

I figure the Minwax Polycrylic will outlast the water based
polyurethane. It's likely not quite as durable as a good
quality oil based polyurethane. But it is more convenient.

I *think* the existing finish is oil based polyurethane but
I could be wrong about that. Another nice feature of the
Polycrylic is that it should be compatible with the existing
finish, whatever was actually used.


Either finish, if it doesn't seal the grain, can allow moisture to get
in. Includes joints with end grain. Lots of woodworkers thin the first
coat of finish a bit so it sinks into the grain better. Oil finish,
IMO, is a good deal tougher and less apt to soak up dirt/stains. The
areas that are flaking probably were either greasy or too glossy to hold
the next coat. On the peeling frames, I would scrape carefully to get
the flaky stuff off and then sand until they are uniform. If the doors
are not stained, a clear finish on the frames should be a close match
with clear finish. After scraping off loose finish, just a scrubbing
with steel wool and mineral spirits likely would get them in shape for
another coat or two. If there is bare wood, it will show darker when
the min. spririts are wet. MS dries pretty quick - give it a day or two.

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message

I think this will work for the doors. And it's fairly similar
to my initial strategy. I was wondering about the "deglosser"
as opposed to the cleaning and light sanding. The deglossers
are *supposed* to achieve the same thing.

It probably does. I don' thave any experience with it, but I would have to
assume it does some cleaning when applied.


However, this isn't going to work on my frames. Too much old
poly has flaked off.

If that is the case, sanding would be in order.



I've seen several expect recommendations that one should
always use gloss for all of the undercoats. Choose your
top coat according to the finish you want (gloss, satin
or whatever).

It means the undercoats are perfectly clear/transparent.
The satin effect that one might consider desirable for
the top coat is generally undesirable in the deeper
layers of the finish (makes them slighly cloudy).

Makes sense. I recently re-finished an old dresser. On the top, I used
gloss poly, sanding between coats. Let it cure for two weeks, then sanded
with 600 grit wet. Then 4F pumice, then rottenstone. Each was done until my
arm felt like going through puberty again. The surface was smooooooth. but
dull. A good coat of wax brought ot to a nice lustre. Great for a pice of
furniture, but a lot of work for all that youh ave to do.

Malcolm Hoar wrote:

However, sanding the doors down to bare wood looks like it
will take more like a couple of weeks.

Drum/wide belt sander for the doors would be worlds faster. Cabinet
shops have them if you don't.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

In article 66kOg.18586$c22.1586@trnddc07, "dadiOH" wrote:
Malcolm Hoar wrote:

However, sanding the doors down to bare wood looks like it
will take more like a couple of weeks.

Drum/wide belt sander for the doors would be worlds faster. Cabinet
shops have them if you don't.

Yeah. Maybe I'll look at the possibility of getting the doors
sanded and sprayed in the shop. Do the frames manually at home.

If I remove the door furniture and deliver the door to the
shop myself and collect 'em when done, the cost may not be too
prohibitive. It'll save a lot of tedious work and give a
better result (assuming the shop is professional).

Thanks!

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article , (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:
My kitchen cabinets are about 15 years old. The frames and doors
are solid wood (oak?) although the end panels appear to be veneered
plywood. They were apparently finished with an oil-based poly and
do have an ambered appearance.

The doors are in pretty good shape -- a few have some grease marks
and water stains mainly along the top edge. In a few cases, the
old poly has flaked off.

The frames are structurally great but the finish is in poor shape
with a lot of flaking.

I'd like to give them a makeover but stripping or sanding the
entire surface area down to bare wood is daunting. Therefore,
I'm considering a hybrid approach and would welcome any comments
or suggestions.

Frames:
1. Clean to remove all grease
2. Sand to bare wood
3. Stain? A quick test (few square inches) suggests this may
not be necessary for a decent match. But perhaps it will
help the appearance and give a better bonding surface for
the poly?
4. Apply 3 coats of Minwax Polycrylic Gloss
5. Lightly sand -- I'll probably use one of those scotchbright things
6. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Satin

Doors:
1. Use a "deglosser" product to clean/etch the surface
2. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Gloss
3. Lightly sand -- I'll probably use one of those scotchbright things
4. Apply 1 coat of Minwax Polycrylic Satin

This project is now (nearly) finished. In the end, I...

* Sanded the doors and frames to bare wood, finishing with
400 grit sandpaper. This was a ****ty job! I did try using
stripper but it really didn't save any time.

* I elected to not apply any stain.

* I finished with 4 coats of gloss oil-based poly with a
light sanding between coats (combination of 400 grit
sandpaper and 000 synthetic steel wool).

* Finally, I de-glossed with 0000 steel wool and a good
quality wax. I was delighted with that effect although
next time I might try synthetic steel wool to avoid the
steel wire dust/wax gunk from accumulating in the corners
of the moldings etc.

We're very pleased with the final result. Obviously we'll
have to see how well it holds up over time but 4 coats of
good quality oil-based poly should prove fairly durable.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~