On 23 Aug 2006 17:04:16 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


Is it OK to aggressively thin latex paint with distilled water? My
aim in doing so is NOT to increase coverage, but rather to improve the
penetration into splits and cracks and rough areas. My intent would
be to allow this first thinned coat to soak in and dry thoroughly, then
apply two more coats of the same product, unthinned.

By overthinning the latex paint, you break down the chemical bonding
of the "glue" base which holds it together. Any paint over the top
would be more easily removed.


If the answer is "no", could you please give some technical explanation
why it is not a good idea.

Jus' cuz.


I already tried this on some old treated pine deck boards I used to
repair portions of an exterior porch stairs. I washed and rinsed the
boards, then let them dry thoroughly. Then I painted them with an
exterior acrylic latex porch paint thinned 50/50 with distilled water.
This first coat had remarkable penetration. After it dried
thoroughly (a couple of days in 85 degree weather in the garage) I put
2 more coats of the same product, unthinned, allowing thorough drying
between coats. I used these boards to replace some worn exterior
porch stair treads, but they've only been in place for a couple of
weeks so far so I won't know the results for a couple of years.

In the past, I've used an oil primer, followed by 2 coats of latex
topcoat, but haven't had very good results. The latex bonded
tenaciously to the primer, but the primer blistered and peeled away

Blistering and peeling are indicators of moisture damage. Since the
primer came up, too, I'd wager that it was the wood which was still
wet.


from the wood. This exterior application sees lots of sun, rain,
snow, and foot traffic.

Make POSITIVE SURE that the wood is dry, the primer is dry [I'd use
all oil-based if it was available, all latex (including primer) if
not.] As you have seen, 2 days at 85F wasn't enough to dry the wood
after washing. Also, make sure it's properly rinsed. Soap films can be
really tenacious. Give it a week to dry AND protect it from dew.

Another possibility arises when you paint things out in the sun. It's
best to paint while it's warm and dry, but not in the direct sunlight
if at all possible. That, too, can cause blistering as the outside
layer of paint dries more quickly than the inside, sealing in more
moisture than it normally would. (I've only read about this part, not
experienced it firsthand.)

Also avoid cheap paints. Good, durable, long-lived paint ain't cheap.

G'luck!


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On 24 Aug 2006 14:04:23 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


Steve B wrote:

Look at the two.

I just looked at a container of Floetrol today. Until now, I'd never
heard of it.

Floetrol is a latex medium with additional binders which are not in
water. It's good stuff. (I have a quart of it on my kitchen floor
waiting to be used with the latex enamel I'll use to repaint all the
interior house trim this month.)


The product is every bit as thick as latex paint.

Very cheap latex paint maybe. Floetrol is nowhere near as thick as the
latex paints I have been using.

It has the same polymers and surfactants as latex paint. It has added polymers and surfactants to help the paint flow and "skin" properly.

How do you know this? The label on the container lists no ingredients.
The MSDS doesn't list any ingredients (it does say the boiling point
is 212F though). Where did you get your information?

Perhaps he
http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerS...oetrol+FAQ.htm


If I paint one board with 8 ounces of high quality latex paint, using
as many coats as it takes to use up the paint, and I paint a second
board with 8 ounces of the same high quality latex paint plus 2 ounces
of distilled water, again using as many coats as it takes to use up the
10 ounces of thinned paint, are you saying the second board has a
"weaker" film? And if so, _why_?

Yes. Take an ounce of Elmer's glue. Thin it with water. Does it still
work as well? You've thinned out the chemical bonding. Ditto your
thinned paint. Most manufacturers ask you not to thin more than 10%
because it messes with the durability of their paint formula. You're
thinning 25-50% and it'll come back to bite you, ah gare-on-tee.

If you're low on engine oil in your car, it is recommended that you
don't add water to that, either.


OT, just heard on the news - Pluto has been stripped of its planet
status.

This just in: Everything We (You) Know Is Wrong. The sun isn't going
down, the horizon is moving UP!


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You wont know with your experiment till it fails, what if it peals in
sheets in 4 years, well it could. Quit experimenting and follow
directions. Primer for decks is often paint thinned properly, properly
is the key.

m Ransley wrote:

Quit experimenting and follow directions.

That was the whole point of the message to which you were responding:
WHAT directions?

Can you recommend (by brand name and model number) even ONE primer
whose labelling explicitly allows usage on horizontal wood surfaces
exposed to weather and foot traffic?

Larry Jaques wrote:
On 24 Aug 2006 14:04:23 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


Steve B wrote:
It has the same polymers and surfactants as latex paint. It has added polymers and surfactants to help the paint flow and "skin" properly.

How do you know this? The label on the container lists no ingredients.
The MSDS doesn't list any ingredients (it does say the boiling point
is 212F though). Where did you get your information?

Perhaps he
http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerS...oetrol+FAQ.htm

Or not. I've read that link. There is no mention at all of polymers
or surfactants. All its says is that Floetrol contains "conditioners".
My shampoo contains "conditioners" too... maybe I could use that?
It's cheaper... :-)


If you're low on engine oil in your car, it is recommended that you
don't add water to that, either.

It's also recommended in my car owner's manual that I do NOT add
third-party additives to my oil, either. Just like the label on my
latex which says "Do not thin"... not "Do not thin, except with
Floetrol, which, although made by our competitor, contains the exact
same chemistry as our proprietary acrylic binding system".


I'll probably pick up a gallon of Floetrol today and give it a try on
some of the boards I am refinishing and give it a fair try. It would
be nice to have more information about it though. Like what's in it.

"Ether Jones" wrote in message
ups.com...

Larry Jaques wrote:
On 24 Aug 2006 14:04:23 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


Steve B wrote:
It has the same polymers and surfactants as latex paint. It has added
polymers and surfactants to help the paint flow and "skin" properly.

How do you know this? The label on the container lists no ingredients.
The MSDS doesn't list any ingredients (it does say the boiling point
is 212F though). Where did you get your information?

Perhaps he
http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerS...oetrol+FAQ.htm

Or not. I've read that link. There is no mention at all of polymers
or surfactants. All its says is that Floetrol contains "conditioners".
My shampoo contains "conditioners" too... maybe I could use that?
It's cheaper... :-)


If you're low on engine oil in your car, it is recommended that you
don't add water to that, either.

It's also recommended in my car owner's manual that I do NOT add
third-party additives to my oil, either. Just like the label on my
latex which says "Do not thin"... not "Do not thin, except with
Floetrol, which, although made by our competitor, contains the exact
same chemistry as our proprietary acrylic binding system".


I'll probably pick up a gallon of Floetrol today and give it a try on
some of the boards I am refinishing and give it a fair try. It would
be nice to have more information about it though. Like what's in it.


Just paint the ****ing boards and shut up, already!

Sheesh!

Steve

Steve B wrote:
"Ether Jones" wrote


No disagreeing with you, but where did you get this information? There
is no information on the product label, and the MSDS lists no
ingredients at all.

Just do what I did. I wrote to the company and asked them to please send me
the private patent information that contains all their ingredients and trade
secrets. They sent them to me immediately.

The sarcasm is misplaced.

If you don't know what's in the product, don't be telling people you
do.

By the way, patents are not "private". If it was patented (which it is
not), that information would be publicly available.

"Ether Jones" wrote in message
oups.com...

Steve B wrote:
"Ether Jones" wrote


No disagreeing with you, but where did you get this information? There
is no information on the product label, and the MSDS lists no
ingredients at all.

Just do what I did. I wrote to the company and asked them to please send
me
the private patent information that contains all their ingredients and
trade
secrets. They sent them to me immediately.

The sarcasm is misplaced.

If you don't know what's in the product, don't be telling people you
do.

By the way, patents are not "private". If it was patented (which it is
not), that information would be publicly available.


Good God, Man. Do you beat dead horses for a living, or just for fun?

Steve

Do what the deck paint label says, or call the manufacturer. For oil
deck paint the usual recomended way by manufacturers that is printed on
labels is thin the oil paint with thinner. Ive only thinned latex to
make it original in thickness after it has thickened by air, Ive never
thinned to spray. The usual max recomended thinning of latex is 10% for
spraying. Each product is different, follow its instructions. Your
previous failures may be to damp a wood [ use a moisture meter ] I do.
Or to hot in sun, to humid, to cold etc etc. Or even crappy paint.

m Ransley wrote:
Do what the deck paint label says, or call the manufacturer. For oil
deck paint the usual recomended way by manufacturers that is printed on
labels is thin the oil paint with thinner. Ive only thinned latex to
make it original in thickness after it has thickened by air, Ive never
thinned to spray. The usual max recomended thinning of latex is 10% for
spraying. Each product is different, follow its instructions. Your
previous failures may be to damp a wood [ use a moisture meter ] I do.
Or to hot in sun, to humid, to cold etc etc. Or even crappy paint.

Just got off the phone with the tech support person for the latex I am
using this year. What she said surprised me but also fit the facts of
my personal experience. She said DON'T USE PRIMER. When I asked
why, she said there ARE NO PRIMERS that hold up well to foot traffic.
Well, that certainly is in agreement with my previous experience, and
would explain why the paint on my porch steps failed so quickly.

Two years ago I oil-primed and latex-topcoated the porch steps, and the
system failed after one year. The paint was adhering to the primer,
but the primer was peeling from the wood. The latex I used back then
was Dutch Boy Porch and Floor, and the label directions said to use an
oil primer, so I did. In an earlier post, I speculated that the reason
for the failure might be that the "conventional wisdom" (latex topcoat
over oil primer) did not apply to what I was trying to do (horizontal
wood exposed to weather and foot traffic). Looks like that might be
correct.

The porch and floor latex I am using this year (made by Sherwin
Williams) does NOT say to use an oil primer, or any primer for that
matter.

The tech rep also said that even though the label says "do not thin",
it is OK to thin with water up to 12% FOR THE FIRST COAT ONLY to
improve penetration into hard-to-reach places as long as there is a
second, unthinned coat applied.

At any rate, the next couple of years should be interesting to see what
happens. One set of steps I power-washed, let dry, and painted with
no primer, just like the label said. On a few of the steps I thinned
with water for the first coat. The other set of steps I disassembled,
planed, power-sanded, and applied paint/primer/stain/sealer in many
different combinations to see which would hold up better.

On Tuesday, September 5, 2006 10:03:57 AM UTC-4, Ether Jones wrote:
m Ransley wrote:
Do what the deck paint label says, or call the manufacturer. For oil
deck paint the usual recomended way by manufacturers that is printed on
labels is thin the oil paint with thinner. Ive only thinned latex to
make it original in thickness after it has thickened by air, Ive never
thinned to spray. The usual max recomended thinning of latex is 10% for
spraying. Each product is different, follow its instructions. Your
previous failures may be to damp a wood [ use a moisture meter ] I do.
Or to hot in sun, to humid, to cold etc etc. Or even crappy paint.

Just got off the phone with the tech support person for the latex I am
using this year. What she said surprised me but also fit the facts of
my personal experience. She said DON'T USE PRIMER. When I asked
why, she said there ARE NO PRIMERS that hold up well to foot traffic.
Well, that certainly is in agreement with my previous experience, and
would explain why the paint on my porch steps failed so quickly.

Two years ago I oil-primed and latex-topcoated the porch steps, and the
system failed after one year. The paint was adhering to the primer,
but the primer was peeling from the wood. The latex I used back then
was Dutch Boy Porch and Floor, and the label directions said to use an
oil primer, so I did. In an earlier post, I speculated that the reason
for the failure might be that the "conventional wisdom" (latex topcoat
over oil primer) did not apply to what I was trying to do (horizontal
wood exposed to weather and foot traffic). Looks like that might be
correct.

The porch and floor latex I am using this year (made by Sherwin
Williams) does NOT say to use an oil primer, or any primer for that
matter.

The tech rep also said that even though the label says "do not thin",
it is OK to thin with water up to 12% FOR THE FIRST COAT ONLY to
improve penetration into hard-to-reach places as long as there is a
second, unthinned coat applied.

At any rate, the next couple of years should be interesting to see what
happens. One set of steps I power-washed, let dry, and painted with
no primer, just like the label said. On a few of the steps I thinned
with water for the first coat. The other set of steps I disassembled,
planed, power-sanded, and applied paint/primer/stain/sealer in many
different combinations to see which would hold up better.


Mr. Jones, I commend you on your patience & methodology. Both on how you handled this thread, as well as your experiments with your steps.

I am disappointed however, that you have never posted the results/findings of your investigation. Although I can hardly blame you based on replies & feedback you were getting from other posters. But I would appreciate very much for you to kindly share what you have learned.

You express yourself clearly & concisely, your questions are valid & pertinent and your logic has been sound. You have a genuine thirst for knowledge & a hunger for the truth. You are not ego-driven like nearly all of those who commented on your question (I can't say "answered" because none did, and even saying "responded" seems to imply more relevance & substance than most posts contained)- you were merely seeking information, which in the end you were able to obtain on your own.
It is rather disturbing how poor the average/typical levels are for such basic skills as reading, comprehension & short-term memory, which this thread exemplifies. It's baffling to me why everyone seemed to get so worked up, trying to turn it around & criticize the question or you- even resorting to swearing & name calling all because THEY were unable to answer your question or even provide any truly useful, pertinent information. People can be so ridiculous, silly & ignorant.

In any case, thank you! I found the information you shared very helpful and informative.

On 12/12/2014 11:49 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 5, 2006 10:03:57 AM UTC-4, Ether Jones wrote:




!!!LOOK AT THE DATE!!!!

I agree with Jonpa..., most of the information was useful and informative. The posters replying to the thread didn't seem to grasp the idea of what was being discussed, and offered little in that direction.

Mineral spirits? Gasoline? Just follow the directions? The reason for using primer in the first place is to fill in the bumps, creases, and other imperfections on the bare wood. The same is true of the primer you spray on your car's body to avoid rust.

My problem isn't decking, mine is beehive lids that absorb huge amounts of moisture from the respiration of the bees clustering in winter. The wet wood lifts the paint and flakes it off. Acrylic primer doesn't seem to work at all.

As for the date, we're aware of it, Philo. We're wishing for a followup to the experiment concerning the thinned paint as a primer substitute.

wrote:

My problem isn't decking, mine is beehive lids that absorb huge
amounts of moisture from the respiration of the bees clustering in
winter. The wet wood lifts the paint and flakes it off. Acrylic
primer doesn't seem to work at all.


Quilt boxes . That is , a shallow tray above the cluster that's filled
with wood shavings or other absorbent material . Do you have an upper
opening for warm moist air to escape ? If not , I'm surprised you don't have
cold water dripping on the bees , a sure way to kill a colony .
I use an inner cover with an outer that's covered by aluminum flashing ,
no paint on my covers .
--
Snag

On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 02:00:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I agree with Jonpa..., most of the information was useful and informative. The posters replying to the thread didn't seem to grasp the idea of what was being discussed, and offered little in that direction.

Mineral spirits? Gasoline? Just follow the directions? The reason for using primer in the first place is to fill in the bumps, creases, and other imperfections on the bare wood. The same is true of the primer you spray on your car's body to avoid rust.

My problem isn't decking, mine is beehive lids that absorb huge amounts of moisture from the respiration of the bees clustering in winter. The wet wood lifts the paint and flakes it off. Acrylic primer doesn't seem to work at all.

As for the date, we're aware of it, Philo. We're wishing for a followup to the experiment concerning the thinned paint as a primer substitute.
The funstion you are referring to is the filler. A "primer" enhances
adhesion of the paint to the substrate. Thinned latex isn't much good
for either.