I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick

On 20 Jul 2006 10:48:24 -0400, wrote:

I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick

( yawn )

I thought you were busy working on your perpetual motion
machine ?

Another great project for you to consider would be 'free
lunch'. If you could create 'free lunch', THAT would be a popular
item !


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick

I like your thinking, it should work. I take it your not really thinking
about hooking hoses up to the spouts of the kitchen sink taps, but to
the pipes feeding them.

About 40 years a go one of my friends had a water cooled central air
system in his Massachusetts home. All the equipment was in the basement
furnace room. The cooling water went down the drain most of the time,
but he did have a valving setup which allowed him to water his lawn with
that warm water if he wanted to.

Googling "heat pump water heater" got over 49,000 hits, and it looks
like it's proven technology:

http://tinyurl.com/zpkpd

and:

http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topwater.htm

Hmm, I wonder if Mr. Milligan even knows this technology exists? If he
does, I wonder why he felt the necessity to hurl an insult at you.
(Rhetorical question, see my sig line.)

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:34:39 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick

I like your thinking, it should work. I take it your not really thinking
about hooking hoses up to the spouts of the kitchen sink taps, but to
the pipes feeding them.

About 40 years a go one of my friends had a water cooled central air
system in his Massachusetts home. All the equipment was in the basement
furnace room. The cooling water went down the drain most of the time,
but he did have a valving setup which allowed him to water his lawn with
that warm water if he wanted to.

Googling "heat pump water heater" got over 49,000 hits, and it looks
like it's proven technology:

http://tinyurl.com/zpkpd

and:

http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topwater.htm

Hmm, I wonder if Mr. Milligan even knows this technology exists? If he
does, I wonder why he felt the necessity to hurl an insult at you.

Because I've known Nick for 10 years, and he's a ****ing loon.

Because his nonsense doesn't work.

Because HIS garbage has NOTHING to do with the system YOU
described. Merely 'uses water' does not count as 'being the same kind
of thing'.

Because Nick has once again displayed his incredibly
consistent ignorance, this time of basic household plumbing.

Because I've installed and serviced more heat pump water
heaters than you've ever read about on the Internet. I can, and I
have, take 'em apart down to the smallest nut and bolt, diganose and
fix or replace any broken parts, and put 'em back together. It was
part of how I made my living for 15 years.

Because when he talks about 'blocking condenser airflow' or
'removing fan blade', he displays his COMPLETE lack of understanding
of how to pipe or control such a system.

Because he thinks some little window unit is going to live
very long running at 110 ambient ( which is what he suggests ).

So bite me.

(Rhetorical question, see my sig line.)

Jeff

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

pjm, you dont install anything, you cant, you spend your whole
worthless life 24x7 ****ing at alt hvac jack offs, go home and pee pjm

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:55:16 -0700, Steve Cothran
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 23:48:16 GMT,
wrote:


Because I've installed and serviced more heat pump water
heaters than you've ever read about on the Internet.

So has anyone made one yet that works and is reliable? I bought into a
York HPWH around 1988. It didn't live very long. Maybe some big
advance since then?


I haven't followed it, but the thing is, you have to
understand the concept - it's very basic.

Instead of the high-side ( hot compressor discharge gas )
going to a coil with air blowing over it, it goes to a heat exchanger
with water on the other side. That's all there is to it. I recall
Amana used to do it, I forget who else.

It will be efficient in the same way a heat pump is - moving
heat instead of converting some other form of energy into heat.

But the plumbing had better not be set up like Nick said,
cause it just don't work.

And it had better have some kind of relief to control head
pressure, for instance a secondary air coil with appropriate valving
and thermostatic control.

And it better be on a SERIOUS compressor, not the little
throw-away rotary things they put in throw-away window-shakers.
'Serious' meaning 'real', like Copeland, Tecumseh, Bristol, etc.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick

I have a better idea. Cool your house from the coming winter cold or
the past one.

wrote:

But the plumbing had better not be set up like Nick said,
cause it just don't work.

How would that plumbing arrangement fail to work?

Nick

wrote in message
...

I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a
Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser
coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing
or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette
SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F
cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap
and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the
sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to
110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

Nick, can you explain a little more here. Are you saying pump from a hot
water tank the cooler water at the bottom through plate heat exchanger and
into the top of the hot water tank? A loop through the hot water tank?

wrote:
wrote:


But the plumbing had better not be set up like Nick said,
cause it just don't work.


How would that plumbing arrangement fail to work?

Nick


It would sure fail if that "aquarium" he talked about placing the
condenser in didn't have a completely sealed top, city water pressure
would make it overflow in a jiffy.

And when he said, "when/if the tank water heater completely fills", I
assume he meant to say, "when/if all the water in the tank comes up to
110F temperature".

He didn't mention how he was going to handle switching the water
heater's original heating source back ON when he didn't need A/C. Or if
it's just a storage tank, what he was going to do with the cold air from
the A/C when he didn't need to cool the room.

Removing the condenser fan blade would provide a minuscule reduction in
motor power consumption, but if left there blowing air against the side
of that "aquarium" it'll just make some of the heat he's trying to put
into the water "fly away". Some thermal insulation around the "aquarium"
would seem to make sense though. OTOH if the design of the A/C had that
fan also blowing some air over the compressor to keep its operating
temperature down, then removing it might not be too smart.

It's an interesting academic discussion, better suited for a physics
classroom, but why reinvent the wheel? There seem to be plenty of
"tailor made" units which could accomplish what he wants to do, and
their materials and operating parameters were probably optimized by
their designers to be far better than what he'd achieve by "converting"
a cheap window A/C. In that regard I do agree with Mr. Milligan's
conclusion. It'd be a bummer to spend a lot of time and effort doing
what the OP suggested only to find that it suffered from infant
mortality during it's first few weeks of "field testing".




--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

News wrote:

I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy
using a Haier 5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect
to the condenser coil at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium
around it with no replumbing or recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F
water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20 400 Btu/h-F plate heat
exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold water into
the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and back
into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the
sink with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F,
when/if the tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons
of 60 F water to 110 takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about
5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h, so we might fill the tank in 3 hours,
with no hot water use.

Nick, can you explain a little more here. Are you saying pump from a hot
water tank the cooler water at the bottom through plate heat exchanger and
into the top of the hot water tank? A loop through the hot water tank?

Yes, with an existing conventional tank water heater. Powertech, Ltd has
an air conditioner something like this...

Nick

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

How would that plumbing arrangement fail to work?

It would sure fail if that "aquarium" he talked about placing the
condenser in didn't have a completely sealed top, city water pressure
would make it overflow in a jiffy.

No. The aquarium would be unpressurized. Its water would flow through one
side of the plate heat exchanger, with pressurized water on the other side.

And when he said, "when/if the tank water heater completely fills", I
assume he meant to say, "when/if all the water in the tank comes up to
110F temperature".

Yes.

He didn't mention how he was going to handle switching the water
heater's original heating source back ON when he didn't need A/C.

We might just disconnect the bottom element.

Removing the condenser fan blade would provide a minuscule reduction in
motor power consumption...

I disagree. Rhetorically-speaking, an assertion demands no more than a
counterassertion. Then again, perhaps you have numbers?

Nick

wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick

How about putting a water heater behind the refrigerator using it's hot
coils.
Another thing, have an air duct from the fridge to outside. Suck in
(under thermostatic control) cool air from the outside for the fridge
and when it's really cold, for the ice box.

--
Linux is just a fancy name for Windows blocker.

Claude Hopper

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:55:16 -0700, Steve Cothran
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 23:48:16 GMT,
wrote:


Because I've installed and serviced more heat pump water
heaters than you've ever read about on the Internet.
So has anyone made one yet that works and is reliable? I bought into a
York HPWH around 1988. It didn't live very long. Maybe some big
advance since then?


The pre-cooler on my friends pipeline dairy cooler worked VERY well,
cooling the milk as it entered the tank and providing ALL the hot
water required for cleaning up the dairy and pipeline when milking
finished.


Why not build thousands of nuclear power plants and make your home total
electric including heating.

--
Linux is just a fancy name for Windows blocker.

Claude Hopper

wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:


How would that plumbing arrangement fail to work?

It would sure fail if that "aquarium" he talked about placing the
condenser in didn't have a completely sealed top, city water pressure
would make it overflow in a jiffy.


No. The aquarium would be unpressurized. Its water would flow through one
side of the plate heat exchanger, with pressurized water on the other side.



Arrgh (falling on my sword) I read right by that "$168 plate heat
exchanger" line, I mistakenly thought he was using the "aquarium" and
the condenser inside it as the heat exchanger. Now I see the OP
described a system requiring TWO pumps, making the whole idea even more
klutzy.


And when he said, "when/if the tank water heater completely fills", I
assume he meant to say, "when/if all the water in the tank comes up to
110F temperature".


Yes.


He didn't mention how he was going to handle switching the water
heater's original heating source back ON when he didn't need A/C.


We might just disconnect the bottom element.


Removing the condenser fan blade would provide a minuscule reduction in
motor power consumption...


I disagree. Rhetorically-speaking, an assertion demands no more than a
counterassertion. Then again, perhaps you have numbers?

Well, If you insist on being that way......The fan blade presents a
mechanical load on the motor, and I haven't yet encountered a simple
motor that doesn't draw less current when you reduce its load, but I
suppose there could be exceptions.

Since it's a very good bet the condenser fan blade will be driven by an
induction motor, removing the fan will lessen the load on that motor and
thus it will run closer to synchronous speed. The left hand graph in
Figure 3 on the page linked below shows that current (and hence power
used) decreases as the motor speeds up:

http://www.reliance.com/prodserv/motgen/b7097_2.htm

Capice?

And peace,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

Claude wrote:

wrote:

I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick


How about putting a water heater behind the refrigerator using it's hot
coils.

Funny you should mention that, my first job out of grad school circa '58
was with a commercial R&D company, Comstock & Westcott in Cambridge,
Mass. They had developed right before WWII (and I think patented it
too.) a gas powered refrigerator with a domestic hot water storage tank
built on top of it. They trade named it "Stator". The water in the tank
received the heat pumped out of the refrigerator.

The war years interfered with producing and marketing it, and during the
fat times after the war nobody gave a damn about saving energy, plus the
darn thing was about 8-1/2 feet tall and wouldn't fit in the post war
houses with their lower ceilings.

There were a couple of those units standing around in the company shop
when I started working there, but as far as I know no more were ever built.

Thanks for the mammaries...

Jeff

snipped
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:20:58 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:


How would that plumbing arrangement fail to work?

It would sure fail if that "aquarium" he talked about placing the
condenser in didn't have a completely sealed top, city water pressure
would make it overflow in a jiffy.


No. The aquarium would be unpressurized. Its water would flow through one
side of the plate heat exchanger, with pressurized water on the other side.



Arrgh (falling on my sword) I read right by that "$168 plate heat
exchanger" line, I mistakenly thought he was using the "aquarium" and
the condenser inside it as the heat exchanger. Now I see the OP
described a system requiring TWO pumps, making the whole idea even more
klutzy.

Nick is nothing if not inelegant :-)



And when he said, "when/if the tank water heater completely fills", I
assume he meant to say, "when/if all the water in the tank comes up to
110F temperature".


Yes.


He didn't mention how he was going to handle switching the water
heater's original heating source back ON when he didn't need A/C.


We might just disconnect the bottom element.


Removing the condenser fan blade would provide a minuscule reduction in
motor power consumption...


I disagree. Rhetorically-speaking, an assertion demands no more than a
counterassertion. Then again, perhaps you have numbers?

Well, If you insist on being that way......The fan blade presents a
mechanical load on the motor, and I haven't yet encountered a simple
motor that doesn't draw less current when you reduce its load, but I
suppose there could be exceptions.

Since it's a very good bet the condenser fan blade will be driven by an
induction motor, removing the fan will lessen the load on that motor and
thus it will run closer to synchronous speed. The left hand graph in
Figure 3 on the page linked below shows that current (and hence power
used) decreases as the motor speeds up:

http://www.reliance.com/prodserv/motgen/b7097_2.htm

Capice?

And peace,

Jeff

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

wrote in message
...
News wrote:

I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy
using a Haier 5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect
to the condenser coil at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium
around it with no replumbing or recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F
water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20 400 Btu/h-F plate heat
exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold water into
the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and back
into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the
sink with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F,
when/if the tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons
of 60 F water to 110 takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about
5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h, so we might fill the tank in 3 hours,
with no hot water use.

Nick, can you explain a little more here. Are you saying pump from a hot
water tank the cooler water at the bottom through plate heat exchanger and
into the top of the hot water tank? A loop through the hot water tank?

Yes, with an existing conventional tank water heater. Powertech, Ltd has
an air conditioner something like this...

Nick

That they do.

yaofeng wrote:
wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold
water into the other side of the heat exchanger from a cold kitchen tap and
back into the hot tap, and dump some hot water from the hot tap into the sink
with a solenoid valve if the cold tap ever reaches say, 100 F, when/if the
tank water heater completely fills. Heating 50 gallons of 60 F water to 110
takes about 21K Btu, and the AC would make about 5000(1+1/3) = 6700 Btu/h,
so we might fill the tank in 3 hours, with no hot water use.

When I blocked the Haier AC condenser airflow to make the exit temp 110 F,
its cool air temp and power use (from a Kill-a-Watt) barely changed.

This could be more efficient than a typical "portable air conditioner" with
air hoses. Removing the condenser fan blade might also raise the COP.

Nick

I have a better idea. Cool your house from the coming winter cold or
the past one.


There are places that do almost that. The very first shopping center
in the world was in Minneapolis. They stored the heat from the summer
in a natural underground pool of water. Then they used that heat during
the winter to heat the building. They didn't need all the heat that ws
stored so it got to where they had to do additional cooling during the
winter.

As for using an AC to heat water. Why? If you need air conditioning
there is more than adequate solar heat for water. Heating water will
only degrade the operation of the refrigerant. And the water will not
be warm enough for any practical use. We already have problems with a
surplus of warm water. Nuclear Power plants for example.

If water is used for cooling a large supply of cold water is needed.

A building in the San Fernando Valley used a large pool with fountains
to cool their refrigerant. The water started to get too warm so they
raised the nozzles on the fountains a couple feet to get more
evaporation and cooling.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

... The aquarium would be unpressurized. Its water would flow through one
side of the plate heat exchanger, with pressurized water on the other side.

Arrgh (falling on my sword) I read right by that "$168 plate heat
exchanger" line, I mistakenly thought he was using the "aquarium" and
the condenser inside it as the heat exchanger. Now I see the OP described
a system requiring TWO pumps, making the whole idea even more klutzy.

It is klutzy, but a little cheaper than commercial heat pump water heaters
at $600+. And possibly more reliable. If the $84 AC fails, it's easy to buy
another. The pressurized pump might be $150. The aquarium pump might be $10.

Removing the condenser fan blade would provide a minuscule reduction in
motor power consumption...

I disagree.

I meant "more than miniscule." Perhaps a significant fraction of
the 55 watts the AC draws when the compressor is not running.

Nick, ex-K3VZW

wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:


... The aquarium would be unpressurized. Its water would flow through one
side of the plate heat exchanger, with pressurized water on the other side.

Arrgh (falling on my sword) I read right by that "$168 plate heat
exchanger" line, I mistakenly thought he was using the "aquarium" and
the condenser inside it as the heat exchanger. Now I see the OP described
a system requiring TWO pumps, making the whole idea even more klutzy.


It is klutzy, but a little cheaper than commercial heat pump water heaters
at $600+. And possibly more reliable. If the $84 AC fails, it's easy to buy
another. The pressurized pump might be $150. The aquarium pump might be $10.


Removing the condenser fan blade would provide a minuscule reduction in
motor power consumption...

I disagree.


I meant "more than miniscule." Perhaps a significant fraction of
the 55 watts the AC draws when the compressor is not running.

Nick, ex-K3VZW



I unnerstand now....But I dinna know that modern cheap window A/Cs keep
the condenser fan running when the compressor switches off. Do they?

So, my using the term "miniscule" was relative to the compressor power
draw, you see.

It's been about 35 years since I owned a window AC, we've had central
air for at least that long. G

Jeff







--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

... I dinna know that modern cheap window A/Cs keep the condenser fan
running when the compressor switches off. Do they?

Most do, IME. It's usually on the same shaft with the evaporator fan.

And saving 20 watts(?) is good even if the compressor is also running.
People are strange: they are more likely to buy a $1000 radio with
their $50K car than they are to pay $1000 for a standalone radio.

Nick

wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold

This is actually not crazy at all.

5500btus for 550watts of power is an excellent return on your power
that's 10btus per watt (ie EER 10). 3.41btus per watt of electricity
means that if you used 550 watts for straight heating you would only
yield 1875 btus (that's an EER of 3.4). If you couple that with
getting cooling on one side and heat in your water you could have even
more savings.

Here is support of this idea:

1. Commercial pool heaters come in an electric heat exchanger version
(which is simply a reverse A/C. On warm days they are actually more
efficient then oil or gas since it's a heat exchanger and not simply
gaining all it's energy from the fuel source.

2. My brother purchased a unit a while back (they come up on ebay
every once and a while) which is a made from scratch version of this
that mounts in his house that gives him 5000 btu's of cooling and on
the condenser has a water loop that circulates into his hot water
heater. I don't think they make it anymore it was the WH6BX and made
for the house. Take a look at:

http://www.aers.com/specsheets.html
Look at the spec sheet for the: R106K-5

This is a little more industrial, but is the same conceptually.

3. I took a window a/c unit a while back to heat a small swimming pool
(kids pool 1500 gallons). I literally built a plexyglass box around
the condenser inside the unit with the top off. That way I didn't have
to break the refrigerant line since I have no idea how to charge them.
I removed the fan blade, but left the motor shaft untouched. I then
ran a small pond pump from the swimming pool through the condenser.
Overall it worked. Measurements on input temperature vs output
temperature and flow rate showed over 90% reclamation of the heat. The
A/C side sending out cold air. However the big problem was I held the
entire plexyglass enclosure together with RTV and I had multiple leaks.
In the end I went with a solar cover. If you choose to do this, low
pressure is the only way to do it unless you cut your condenser out of
the unit and encase it in something else. Maybe encasing it with metal
would have worked better but soldering around the condenser may not be
safe.

Good luck. I might be able to dig up a photo. Email me if you are
interested.

One little additional comment, heat exchangers only work well in warm
weather. In the North you don't see them on homes, because when it's
10 degrees out it's not efficient to extract energy from the air.

lowtech87501

wrote in message
ps.com...
wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a
Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser
coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no
replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette
SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F
cold

This is actually not crazy at all.

5500btus for 550watts of power is an excellent return on your power
that's 10btus per watt (ie EER 10). 3.41btus per watt of electricity
means that if you used 550 watts for straight heating you would only
yield 1875 btus (that's an EER of 3.4). If you couple that with
getting cooling on one side and heat in your water you could have even
more savings.

Here is support of this idea:

1. Commercial pool heaters come in an electric heat exchanger version
(which is simply a reverse A/C. On warm days they are actually more
efficient then oil or gas since it's a heat exchanger and not simply
gaining all it's energy from the fuel source.

2. My brother purchased a unit a while back (they come up on ebay
every once and a while) which is a made from scratch version of this
that mounts in his house that gives him 5000 btu's of cooling and on
the condenser has a water loop that circulates into his hot water
heater. I don't think they make it anymore it was the WH6BX and made
for the house. Take a look at:

http://www.aers.com/specsheets.html
Look at the spec sheet for the: R106K-5

This is a little more industrial, but is the same conceptually.

3. I took a window a/c unit a while back to heat a small swimming pool
(kids pool 1500 gallons). I literally built a plexyglass box around
the condenser inside the unit with the top off. That way I didn't have
to break the refrigerant line since I have no idea how to charge them.
I removed the fan blade, but left the motor shaft untouched. I then
ran a small pond pump from the swimming pool through the condenser.
Overall it worked. Measurements on input temperature vs output
temperature and flow rate showed over 90% reclamation of the heat. The
A/C side sending out cold air. However the big problem was I held the
entire plexyglass enclosure together with RTV and I had multiple leaks.
In the end I went with a solar cover. If you choose to do this, low
pressure is the only way to do it unless you cut your condenser out of
the unit and encase it in something else. Maybe encasing it with metal
would have worked better but soldering around the condenser may not be
safe.

Good luck. I might be able to dig up a photo. Email me if you are
interested.

One little additional comment, heat exchangers only work well in warm
weather. In the North you don't see them on homes, because when it's
10 degrees out it's not efficient to extract energy from the air.

lowtech87501
I have a coaxial heat exchanger in place of a condenser on a 6500 btuh
window shaker. The whole mess is on a little cart, along with a circulator
pump. In the spring I roll it out beside the aboveground pool and in about a
week the water is in the 80's. I also have a desuperheater on the house A/C
that makes free hot water.

Hi folks. I work for AERS, Inc. which was sited earlier in this
thread. They have successful heat pump water heating installations
numbering in the tens of thousands-- residential, commercial and
industrial. For the R106K, 1/3rd of the heat generated by this unit is
purchased electricity. The other 2/3rds comes from renewable sources--
heat and humidity found inside the house or even in a crawl space under
the house. The cooling and the dehumidification are added benefits
during the cooling season. And for those interested in the "green"
factor, only solar water heating has a smaller carbon dioxide emissions
footprint than heat pump water heating.

I belive most window shakers are built to handle ambients right around
95 - 100 F and then then they are running at pretty high pressures.
I'd guess one of these units could generate 110 F water, but for how
long? My guess is not long. It would be similar to running the wife's
mini van at 110 MPH all the time. It'll do it-- for a while.

I've heard of successful conversions of air conditioning equipment to
outdoor pool water heaters in other HVAC forums. The successful ones
know how to braze refrigeration lines and charge the equipment to
optimum operating pressures. These aren't within the normal DIYer
skill set.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from your project, but there are
inherent limitations when trying to heat water from a unit optimized
for space cooling.

Greg
wrote:
wrote:
I'm still thinking about heating water with 1/3 the usual energy using a Haier
5K Btu/h window AC ($84 at Wal-Mart.) The pipes connect to the condenser coil
at the top, so we could build a thin aquarium around it with no replumbing or
recharging and pump 1.5 gpm of 110 F water out through a $168 Doucette SB1-20
400 Btu/h-F plate heat exchanger with a 110 F thermostat and pump 60 F cold

This is actually not crazy at all.

5500btus for 550watts of power is an excellent return on your power
that's 10btus per watt (ie EER 10). 3.41btus per watt of electricity
means that if you used 550 watts for straight heating you would only
yield 1875 btus (that's an EER of 3.4). If you couple that with
getting cooling on one side and heat in your water you could have even
more savings.

Here is support of this idea:

1. Commercial pool heaters come in an electric heat exchanger version
(which is simply a reverse A/C. On warm days they are actually more
efficient then oil or gas since it's a heat exchanger and not simply
gaining all it's energy from the fuel source.

2. My brother purchased a unit a while back (they come up on ebay
every once and a while) which is a made from scratch version of this
that mounts in his house that gives him 5000 btu's of cooling and on
the condenser has a water loop that circulates into his hot water
heater. I don't think they make it anymore it was the WH6BX and made
for the house. Take a look at:

http://www.aers.com/specsheets.html
Look at the spec sheet for the: R106K-5

This is a little more industrial, but is the same conceptually.

3. I took a window a/c unit a while back to heat a small swimming pool
(kids pool 1500 gallons). I literally built a plexyglass box around
the condenser inside the unit with the top off. That way I didn't have
to break the refrigerant line since I have no idea how to charge them.
I removed the fan blade, but left the motor shaft untouched. I then
ran a small pond pump from the swimming pool through the condenser.
Overall it worked. Measurements on input temperature vs output
temperature and flow rate showed over 90% reclamation of the heat. The
A/C side sending out cold air. However the big problem was I held the
entire plexyglass enclosure together with RTV and I had multiple leaks.
In the end I went with a solar cover. If you choose to do this, low
pressure is the only way to do it unless you cut your condenser out of
the unit and encase it in something else. Maybe encasing it with metal
would have worked better but soldering around the condenser may not be
safe.

Good luck. I might be able to dig up a photo. Email me if you are
interested.

One little additional comment, heat exchangers only work well in warm
weather. In the North you don't see them on homes, because when it's
10 degrees out it's not efficient to extract energy from the air.

lowtech87501