My home in Charleston, SC is raised a full story with the garage
underneath. This past week I have been making changes to the spacing in
between the structural columns and in this process I moved my water
heater towards the interior about 10' (it was agfainst the outer wall
and because of lattice work, exposed to the elements).

I mounted a junction box with cover inside the insulated and sheet
rocked ceiling and ran an extension of 10 guage Romex to the new
location. I replaced the wooden water heater stand with a new metal
stand and extended the pipes using Pex and quick connectors. The stand
sits upon a concrete garage floor. I connected the Romex ground to the
appropriate location on the water heater.

All the pipes in my home are Pex or CPVC and as far as I can tell there
is no copper. While I was installing a new heater blanket I received a
"small" shock (i.e. like a tounge on a fresh 9 volt) whenever I touch a
screw on the water heater or the stand itself. I flipped the breaker
and checked where I wired the water heater to the new Romex to make
sure there was no connection to the heater - there wasn't and I added
another 1" of tape to make sure.

When I was shocked I was barefoot so it is possible it has been like
this since "forever" since I don't think I have had this type of
contact with the water heater before (always wearing shoes - if I have
ever touched the screws at all).

So, my question is - am I in danger? Even if no, how do I fix this? My
first inclination after reading other posts is that the water heater is
not grounded. The problem went away after I cut the breaker and
re-touched the water heater.

All help is appreciated -

Ian Jones

wrote in message
oups.com...
My home in Charleston, SC is raised a full story with the garage
underneath. This past week I have been making changes to the spacing in
between the structural columns and in this process I moved my water
heater towards the interior about 10' (it was agfainst the outer wall
and because of lattice work, exposed to the elements).

I mounted a junction box with cover inside the insulated and sheet
rocked ceiling and ran an extension of 10 guage Romex to the new
location. I replaced the wooden water heater stand with a new metal
stand and extended the pipes using Pex and quick connectors. The stand
sits upon a concrete garage floor. I connected the Romex ground to the
appropriate location on the water heater.

All the pipes in my home are Pex or CPVC and as far as I can tell there
is no copper. While I was installing a new heater blanket I received a
"small" shock (i.e. like a tounge on a fresh 9 volt) whenever I touch a
screw on the water heater or the stand itself. I flipped the breaker
and checked where I wired the water heater to the new Romex to make
sure there was no connection to the heater - there wasn't and I added
another 1" of tape to make sure.

When I was shocked I was barefoot so it is possible it has been like
this since "forever" since I don't think I have had this type of
contact with the water heater before (always wearing shoes - if I have
ever touched the screws at all).

So, my question is - am I in danger? Even if no, how do I fix this? My
first inclination after reading other posts is that the water heater is
not grounded. The problem went away after I cut the breaker and
re-touched the water heater.

All help is appreciated -

Ian Jones


Clearly the WH is not grounded. The ground on the Romex must be open
downstream. Easiest fix would be to find a proper local ground (ground rod
or piece of rebar sticking out of your foundation) and ground it directly to
that. If you do have a hot wire charging the WH, that is certainly very
dangerous but if you do connect a good ground, it should trip the breaker if
that were the case.

If you measure an AC voltage less than 115V on the WH to ground or neutral,
you may have current leakage through the water itself which may be coming in
at (I have no idea) another electric appliance piped to the water supply.

On 1 Jun 2006 16:22:29 -0700, wrote:

My home in Charleston, SC is raised a full story with the garage
underneath. This past week I have been making changes to the spacing in
between the structural columns and in this process I moved my water
heater towards the interior about 10' (it was agfainst the outer wall
and because of lattice work, exposed to the elements).

I mounted a junction box with cover inside the insulated and sheet
rocked ceiling and ran an extension of 10 guage Romex to the new
location. I replaced the wooden water heater stand with a new metal
stand and extended the pipes using Pex and quick connectors. The stand
sits upon a concrete garage floor. I connected the Romex ground to the
appropriate location on the water heater.

All the pipes in my home are Pex or CPVC and as far as I can tell there
is no copper. While I was installing a new heater blanket I received a
"small" shock (i.e. like a tounge on a fresh 9 volt) whenever I touch a
screw on the water heater or the stand itself. I flipped the breaker
and checked where I wired the water heater to the new Romex to make
sure there was no connection to the heater - there wasn't and I added
another 1" of tape to make sure.

When I was shocked I was barefoot so it is possible it has been like
this since "forever" since I don't think I have had this type of
contact with the water heater before (always wearing shoes - if I have
ever touched the screws at all).

So, my question is - am I in danger? Even if no, how do I fix this? My
first inclination after reading other posts is that the water heater is
not grounded. The problem went away after I cut the breaker and
re-touched the water heater.

All help is appreciated -

Ian Jones


I would check the calrod elements. It sounds like one is perforated.

wrote in message
oups.com...

I mounted a junction box with cover inside the insulated and sheet
rocked ceiling and ran an extension of 10 guage Romex to the new
location. I replaced the wooden water heater stand with a new metal
stand and extended the pipes using Pex and quick connectors. The stand
sits upon a concrete garage floor. I connected the Romex ground to the
appropriate location on the water heater.


Was it connected to the electrical box with 10/3 or 10/3 with ground? And
did you extend it with the exact same wiring? Older homes in most areas
used only 10/3 so there would have been no actual ground. Wood is not a
strong conductor. Metal is. Modern code requires a separate ground.
Grounding it all the way back to the box is the proper way.

The bad cal-rod is also a strong possibility.

Colbyt

Thanks for the reply. I pulled the front off my breaker box and checked
that the ground for the WH line was connected to the core ground
(terminology?) and it appeared to be so (it was hard to follow
everything without touching and moving wires).

When I patched the line I did so for both live wires and the ground so
the WH should be grounded all the way back to the panel - unless I
attached the ground incorrectly on the WH. I will research that.

A friend suggested I connect the stand back to the ground on the WH but
I am not sure if that would help if the whole unit is not grounded.
Since it appears the WH is properly grounded I will check the cal-rod
suggestion.


Colbyt wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

I mounted a junction box with cover inside the insulated and sheet
rocked ceiling and ran an extension of 10 guage Romex to the new
location. I replaced the wooden water heater stand with a new metal
stand and extended the pipes using Pex and quick connectors. The stand
sits upon a concrete garage floor. I connected the Romex ground to the
appropriate location on the water heater.


Was it connected to the electrical box with 10/3 or 10/3 with ground? And
did you extend it with the exact same wiring? Older homes in most areas
used only 10/3 so there would have been no actual ground. Wood is not a
strong conductor. Metal is. Modern code requires a separate ground.
Grounding it all the way back to the box is the proper way.

The bad cal-rod is also a strong possibility.

Colbyt

New development: I now don't have hot water (I did afeter I installed
everything) - so something happened after all that - this seems
coincidental and leads me to believe I have screwed something up!

wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I pulled the front off my breaker box and checked
that the ground for the WH line was connected to the core ground
(terminology?) and it appeared to be so (it was hard to follow
everything without touching and moving wires).

When I patched the line I did so for both live wires and the ground so
the WH should be grounded all the way back to the panel - unless I
attached the ground incorrectly on the WH. I will research that.

A friend suggested I connect the stand back to the ground on the WH but
I am not sure if that would help if the whole unit is not grounded.
Since it appears the WH is properly grounded I will check the cal-rod
suggestion.


Colbyt wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

I mounted a junction box with cover inside the insulated and sheet
rocked ceiling and ran an extension of 10 guage Romex to the new
location. I replaced the wooden water heater stand with a new metal
stand and extended the pipes using Pex and quick connectors. The stand
sits upon a concrete garage floor. I connected the Romex ground to the
appropriate location on the water heater.


Was it connected to the electrical box with 10/3 or 10/3 with ground? And
did you extend it with the exact same wiring? Older homes in most areas
used only 10/3 so there would have been no actual ground. Wood is not a
strong conductor. Metal is. Modern code requires a separate ground.
Grounding it all the way back to the box is the proper way.

The bad cal-rod is also a strong possibility.

Colbyt

"ianjones" wrote in message
ups.com...
New development: I now don't have hot water (I did afeter I installed
everything) - so something happened after all that - this seems
coincidental and leads me to believe I have screwed something up!


Check the style and pick up a couple of elements while you are out today.
There are two types, screw in and bolt in. If yours are the screw in type
your might also need an element wrench (just a cheap over sized socket).

The process of moving the heater could have caused some scale to flake off
and speed up the failure rate. Bottom one dies first 90% of the time. Low
volume users never miss it until the top one dies. No HW says they are both
dead, or a wire burnt in to, or the breaker tripped.


Colbyt

How do I determine what types they are?

Colbyt wrote:
"ianjones" wrote in message
ups.com...
New development: I now don't have hot water (I did afeter I installed
everything) - so something happened after all that - this seems
coincidental and leads me to believe I have screwed something up!


Check the style and pick up a couple of elements while you are out today.
There are two types, screw in and bolt in. If yours are the screw in type
your might also need an element wrench (just a cheap over sized socket).

The process of moving the heater could have caused some scale to flake off
and speed up the failure rate. Bottom one dies first 90% of the time. Low
volume users never miss it until the top one dies. No HW says they are both
dead, or a wire burnt in to, or the breaker tripped.


Colbyt

My apologies for the silly questions - I was in the office and when I
got home I realized a simple inspection answered most of them.

They are screw in elements and the upper element near the base has a
split and calcification building up inside the rod. This leads me to
believe it has been like this for awhile. In any case, I am going to
clean the water heater and replace both elements and I will report back
on success/failure - thanks for the help.

Any suggestions/tips on cleaning would be appreciated.

ianjones wrote:
How do I determine what types they are?

Colbyt wrote:
"ianjones" wrote in message
ups.com...
New development: I now don't have hot water (I did afeter I installed
everything) - so something happened after all that - this seems
coincidental and leads me to believe I have screwed something up!


Check the style and pick up a couple of elements while you are out today.
There are two types, screw in and bolt in. If yours are the screw in type
your might also need an element wrench (just a cheap over sized socket).

The process of moving the heater could have caused some scale to flake off
and speed up the failure rate. Bottom one dies first 90% of the time. Low
volume users never miss it until the top one dies. No HW says they are both
dead, or a wire burnt in to, or the breaker tripped.


Colbyt

"ianjones" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK - I replaced both heating elements but still received the shock. I
tried grounding the stand directly to the Romex ground - still shocked.
I checked my outside grounding rod and it looked like the grounding
wire had come unattached so I purchased a new connector, cleaned and
steel brushed the connections and re-attached it, still shocked.

At this point, I am not really getting hot water and there is obviously
something wrong with my hot water heater internally.

Thoughts?

There is nothing "internal" in an electric water heater except the elements
that you replaced. The only other part they have is two thermostats both of
which have reset buttons. Most likely those tripped when the element burnt
out. Those are usually located under an access panel close to the elements.
Press one of the buttons and then place your ear on the side of the metal
tank. You should hear the element humming. You can press the other button
but remember that both elements do not come on at the same time.

You can also check the internal wiring to make sure nothing is frayed. The
minor shock could be from that or it might be a utility line feedback. You
could test this by grounding yourself and touching some other grounded metal
appliances inside the home.

Could this shock be a static one? If you touch the heater, don't move
anything except your hand and touch it again do you feel the shock? Is the
air dry where you are? My nylon jacket sets me on fire when I get out of my
truck in the garage during dry weather.

Colbyt

"Colbyt" wrote in message
m...

"ianjones" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK - I replaced both heating elements but still received the shock. I
tried grounding the stand directly to the Romex ground - still shocked.
I checked my outside grounding rod and it looked like the grounding
wire had come unattached so I purchased a new connector, cleaned and
steel brushed the connections and re-attached it, still shocked.

At this point, I am not really getting hot water and there is obviously
something wrong with my hot water heater internally.

Thoughts?

There is nothing "internal" in an electric water heater except the
elements that you replaced. The only other part they have is two
thermostats both of which have reset buttons. Most likely those tripped
when the element burnt out. Those are usually located under an access
panel close to the elements. Press one of the buttons and then place your
ear on the side of the metal tank. You should hear the element humming.
You can press the other button but remember that both elements do not come
on at the same time.

You can also check the internal wiring to make sure nothing is frayed. The
minor shock could be from that or it might be a utility line feedback. You
could test this by grounding yourself and touching some other grounded
metal appliances inside the home.

Could this shock be a static one? If you touch the heater, don't move
anything except your hand and touch it again do you feel the shock? Is the
air dry where you are? My nylon jacket sets me on fire when I get out of
my truck in the garage during dry weather.

Colbyt
You're kidding, right? The guy is complaining of getting a shock from his
water heater (although a minor shock) and you want him to put his ear to the
unit or ground himself and touch other potential "shocking" appliances. By
this time, I think I would be touching this heater, only with a meter.

Tom G.

I used my voltmeter on the elements to confirm they are receiving power
and they are - I pressed the reset buttons and will report back.

BTW - I only receive a shock when I am not wearing shoes.

Tom G wrote:
"Colbyt" wrote in message
m...

"ianjones" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK - I replaced both heating elements but still received the shock. I
tried grounding the stand directly to the Romex ground - still shocked.
I checked my outside grounding rod and it looked like the grounding
wire had come unattached so I purchased a new connector, cleaned and
steel brushed the connections and re-attached it, still shocked.

At this point, I am not really getting hot water and there is obviously
something wrong with my hot water heater internally.

Thoughts?

There is nothing "internal" in an electric water heater except the
elements that you replaced. The only other part they have is two
thermostats both of which have reset buttons. Most likely those tripped
when the element burnt out. Those are usually located under an access
panel close to the elements. Press one of the buttons and then place your
ear on the side of the metal tank. You should hear the element humming.
You can press the other button but remember that both elements do not come
on at the same time.

You can also check the internal wiring to make sure nothing is frayed. The
minor shock could be from that or it might be a utility line feedback. You
could test this by grounding yourself and touching some other grounded
metal appliances inside the home.

Could this shock be a static one? If you touch the heater, don't move
anything except your hand and touch it again do you feel the shock? Is the
air dry where you are? My nylon jacket sets me on fire when I get out of
my truck in the garage during dry weather.

Colbyt
You're kidding, right? The guy is complaining of getting a shock from his
water heater (although a minor shock) and you want him to put his ear to the
unit or ground himself and touch other potential "shocking" appliances. By
this time, I think I would be touching this heater, only with a meter.

Tom G.

ianjones wrote:
I used my voltmeter on the elements to confirm they are receiving power
and they are - I pressed the reset buttons and will report back.

BTW - I only receive a shock when I am not wearing shoes.

That's because shoes insulate you from the floor. Could it
be possible that a wire to either the upper or lower
thermostat could be contacting the case? It's a long shot.

Let's get serious about this:

Kill power and disconnect the two legs and ground at the
heater. Disconnect the wires at each electrode. Do you
read any resistance between either leg and ground or the
heater case? If all is open, connect up the upper thermostat
again. See if you have any grounding from that. Connect up
the upper thermostat. . . keep trying as you connect up the
lower things.

The thermostats in an electric heater only break one leg of
the 240v to switch elements on/off. The upper thermostat
has priority. If the upper calls for heat, the upper element
switches on. Only when the upper thermostat opens at
setpoint will the lower one be permitted to cut on, if needed.

Nonnymus

"Tom G" wrote in message
news:vNrgg.7865$3i3.3251@trnddc08...
You're kidding, right? The guy is complaining of getting a shock from
his water heater (although a minor shock) and you want him to put his ear
to the unit or ground himself and touch other potential "shocking"
appliances. By this time, I think I would be touching this heater, only
with a meter.


If it was going to kill him, He would already be dead. MINOR is the
keyword.