It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire. It also cut the neutral wire**, although I don't know yet
if that is thought to have anything to do with the electrocution.

Why her? Doing her stretching before the game, she touched both this
first fence and another fence a couple feet away. One was hot and the
other was a ground.


**I don't know who it did all this with only a quarter inch, but
that's what they said and what their diagram showed.

The fence over the electric cable was built 20 or 30 years ago.


No one seems to remember who built it. Would they, should they have
checked for electric cables underneath 20 or 30 years ago? By using
maps or were there detectors in use then?

"mm" wrote in message

The fence over the electric cable was built 20 or 30 years ago.


No one seems to remember who built it. Would they, should they have
checked for electric cables underneath 20 or 30 years ago? By using
maps or were there detectors in use then?

OMG, what a freak thing to happen, so many years later. Thanks for the
followup.

In article ,
mm wrote:

Would they, should they have checked for electric cables
underneath 20 or 30 years ago?

Yes. They may well have and were told there was NOTHING there. Erroneous
"all clear" tickets are a problem in the locating world.

By using maps or were there detectors in use then?

There was perfectly good and reliable cable locating equipment then, and even
earlier.

Main lines (electric, com, etc) are always on a "map" somewhere. Individual
service "drops" or individual service lines usually are NOT. A simple buried
run to a street light fixture would probably NOT be on any map.

With the proliferation of directional boring it is possible (and not uncommon)
to go UNDER an obstruction. Of course, going AROUND the object is preferred.
The wire in question could have been placed AFTER the fence using directional
boring. One would assume that was considered during the investigation of this
tragic accident.

:\
JR

In article , mm wrote:

The fence over the electric cable was built 20 or 30 years ago.

No one seems to remember who built it. Would they, should they have
checked for electric cables underneath 20 or 30 years ago? By using
maps or were there detectors in use then?

"Call Before You Dig" has been around for at least that long.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

And this also shows that all the folks who said it's hard to understand
how this can happen, as electricity simply follows the easiest path to
ground were wrong. The pole was in the ground, even had concrete
surrounding some of it, which someone else said was a reasonably good
conductor. And certainly there were other poles in the fence that
offered a ground path too. Low and behold, the current actually
traveled from a cable in the ground up into the fence. Current will
follow multiple paths and split according to the resistance. That's
what happened here.

mm wrote:
It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire.

For a 3.5' tall fence post, the post hole was probably dug about 1.5' -
2' deep. Not that deep at all. Considering the bottom of the post
miraculously stopped just at the cable, it's very possible that the guy
digging it, knew he hit the cable, was thankful he didn't die, and
figured that the concrete would cover the top of the cable and prevent
the post from touching the cable itself. Of course the cable being the
limiting factor in the hole depth would mean that the post would not be
set at the same height as the rest - assuming the guy was relatively
careful about setting his posts. I'd check the top of all of the
poles to see if that particular pole was noticeably higher than the
rest, or to see if it had been cut (a cut in the field would look
different than a factory cut post end).

R

mm wrote:
It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire. It also cut the neutral wire**, although I don't know yet
if that is thought to have anything to do with the electrocution.

Why her? Doing her stretching before the game, she touched both this
first fence and another fence a couple feet away. One was hot and the
other was a ground.


**I don't know who it did all this with only a quarter inch, but
that's what they said and what their diagram showed.

The fence over the electric cable was built 20 or 30 years ago.


No one seems to remember who built it. Would they, should they have
checked for electric cables underneath 20 or 30 years ago? By using
maps or were there detectors in use then?



In the last couple of years we've had a spate of pet dogs being
electrocuted while being walked by their owners on paved city streets
here in Red Sox Nation.

Usually blamed on someone doing maintenance screwing up and energizing
conductors which didn't terminate where they were thought to and were
touching earth below the pavement.

I too had difficulty understanding how the current flowdivision created
a deadly potential difference in a distance the span of a dog's feet,
but I can't argue with what happened especially since the local utility
companies admitted there was something defective there. I suppose maybe
there could have been some grounded person hole covers (PC term
G)involved, located right next to some wet high potential pavement.

IIRC those incidents created a big rush among urban pet ownersto to buy
rubber dog booties.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Life is like a sewer -- what you get out of it depends on what you put
into it."

You have to wonder if the post digger saw the line. Last week, I
started up my sprinkler system, having put in grass seed. Lo and
behold, a burbling spring in the back yard, where the neighbor had his
fence put up last fall. The post diggers not only cut my sprinkler
line- right on the property line- they poured the footing fully
surrounding it. I think they saw, but kept their mouths shut. Oh
well, I moved it over- still a piece of pvc in their footing. Good
for a few curses and a few laughs, not tragic like in this case.

RicodJour wrote:
mm wrote:

It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire.

For a 3.5' tall fence post, the post hole was probably dug about 1.5' -
2' deep. Not that deep at all. Considering the bottom of the post
miraculously stopped just at the cable, it's very possible that the guy
digging it, knew he hit the cable, was thankful he didn't die, and
figured that the concrete would cover the top of the cable and prevent
the post from touching the cable itself. Of course the cable being the
limiting factor in the hole depth would mean that the post would not be
set at the same height as the rest - assuming the guy was relatively
careful about setting his posts. I'd check the top of all of the
poles to see if that particular pole was noticeably higher than the
rest, or to see if it had been cut (a cut in the field would look
different than a factory cut post end).

R

I think it is pretty much standard practice with chain-link fences to
place the poles, let the concrete set, and THEN trim them to the right
height. I wonder if anyone is checking to find out who actually put
that fence in. I think it is unlikely that there was any detailed
map of location -- unless it was put in by the power company. --Phil

--
Phil Munro Dept of Electrical & Computer Engin
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio 44555

CPR isn't the golden pill in all situations, it may have helped or it
may not. Young healthy victim, odds are it would have but we won't
ever know.

I agree it was a tragedy regardless of the cause.

On Thu, 11 May 2006 22:38:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 May 2006 18:26:57 -0400, mm
wrote:

It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire. It also cut the neutral wire**, although I don't know yet
if that is thought to have anything to do with the electrocution.

Why her? Doing her stretching before the game, she touched both this
first fence and another fence a couple feet away. One was hot and the
other was a ground.


**I don't know who it did all this with only a quarter inch, but
that's what they said and what their diagram showed.

The fence over the electric cable was built 20 or 30 years ago.


No one seems to remember who built it. Would they, should they have
checked for electric cables underneath 20 or 30 years ago? By using
maps or were there detectors in use then?

I doubt anyone even had a clute there was a wire there.
A GFCI would have saved he, as, very likely, would a person who knew
CPR.

She was breathing erratically but still breathing. If she was
breathing at all, I think that means her heart was beating.

I've also heard, although only once, that CPR is unlikely to save
someone's life. That they make a big deal when it works but it
usually doesn't. That's no reason not to try of course in cases where
the person isn't breathing or has no pulse.

Even GFCI's you speak about as if it was certain it would save someone
from electrocution. I have never heard anyone say it was certain.
(What voltage is used by the lights at athletic fields, btw?)

On 12 May 2006 07:06:00 -0700, "RicodJour"
wrote:

mm wrote:
It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire.

For a 3.5' tall fence post, the post hole was probably dug about 1.5' -
2' deep. Not that deep at all. Considering the bottom of the post
miraculously stopped just at the cable, it's very possible that the guy
digging it, knew he hit the cable, was thankful he didn't die, and
figured that the concrete would cover the top of the cable and prevent
the post from touching the cable itself. Of course the cable being the
limiting factor in the hole depth would mean that the post would not be
set at the same height as the rest - assuming the guy was relatively
careful about setting his posts. I'd check the top of all of the
poles to see if that particular pole was noticeably higher than the
rest, or to see if it had been cut (a cut in the field would look
different than a factory cut post end).

I was right across from the park last Sunday morning after this
happened (the previous Friday afternoon), and I did go looking for it.
I found two softball fields, but not the one in the pictures. Either
some of the park is only accessible on foot or I missed a road. It's
a very big park.

I guess they dug up the fence or they dug beside it to figure it out,
and by now they've probably taken the fence down. I think it was only
10 feet long or so.

I was invited to the same thing tomorrow morning, but I'm not going,
and I don't think I'll be able to find out any more details.

R

On Fri, 12 May 2006 11:06:56 -0400, Phil Munro
wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
mm wrote:

It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire.

For a 3.5' tall fence post, the post hole was probably dug about 1.5' -
2' deep. Not that deep at all. Considering the bottom of the post
miraculously stopped just at the cable, it's very possible that the guy
digging it, knew he hit the cable, was thankful he didn't die, and
figured that the concrete would cover the top of the cable and prevent
the post from touching the cable itself. Of course the cable being the
limiting factor in the hole depth would mean that the post would not be
set at the same height as the rest - assuming the guy was relatively
careful about setting his posts. I'd check the top of all of the
poles to see if that particular pole was noticeably higher than the
rest, or to see if it had been cut (a cut in the field would look
different than a factory cut post end).

R

I think it is pretty much standard practice with chain-link fences to
place the poles, let the concrete set, and THEN trim them to the right
height. I wonder if anyone is checking to find out who actually put
that fence in.

They said that no one remembered, but I'll bet the paperwork is still
around, and they'll find out who the contractor was. If the City of
Baltimore did stuff like this, they'll be liable, I think.

I think it is unlikely that there was any detailed
map of location -- unless it was put in by the power company. --Phil

The power company was already out there on Saturday saying it was on
the far side of the meter, and not their fault. Does the power
company ever install things, for a separate fee, on the far side of
the meter.

Phil Munro wrote:

I think it is pretty much standard practice with chain-link fences to
place the poles, let the concrete set, and THEN trim them to the right
height.

You don't cut the fence posts unless you have to, so there's no reason
to plan on doing it. That was my point. If the post in question was
obviously cut, and the others weren't, then the installers knew they
hit an obstruction. Question is whether they knew if they hit a cable.

http://www.hooverfence.com/manual/ch...k/install3.htm

R

mm wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2006 11:06:56 -0400, Phil Munro
wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
mm wrote:

It took until Wednesday for someone to say how the girl was killed
last Friday in Baltimore.

It seems that the fence she was touching went in AFTER the power line
beneath it. The power line went to a light pole maybe 50 feet away
used to illuminate the softball field.

The fence was not the backstop, iiuc, but a 3 1/2 foot tall chain link
fence near the backstop. There was a cement footing for the pole, but
the pole extended about a quarter inch below the cement, and rested on
the cable. Eventually, it wore through the insulation and touched the
hot wire.
For a 3.5' tall fence post, the post hole was probably dug about 1.5' -
2' deep. Not that deep at all. Considering the bottom of the post
miraculously stopped just at the cable, it's very possible that the guy
digging it, knew he hit the cable, was thankful he didn't die, and
figured that the concrete would cover the top of the cable and prevent
the post from touching the cable itself. Of course the cable being the
limiting factor in the hole depth would mean that the post would not be
set at the same height as the rest - assuming the guy was relatively
careful about setting his posts. I'd check the top of all of the
poles to see if that particular pole was noticeably higher than the
rest, or to see if it had been cut (a cut in the field would look
different than a factory cut post end).

R

I think it is pretty much standard practice with chain-link fences to
place the poles, let the concrete set, and THEN trim them to the right
height. I wonder if anyone is checking to find out who actually put
that fence in.

They said that no one remembered, but I'll bet the paperwork is still
around, and they'll find out who the contractor was. If the City of
Baltimore did stuff like this, they'll be liable, I think.

I think it is unlikely that there was any detailed
map of location -- unless it was put in by the power company. --Phil

The power company was already out there on Saturday saying it was on
the far side of the meter, and not their fault. Does the power
company ever install things, for a separate fee, on the far side of
the meter.



No. The power company employs outside wiremen that work under the
National Electrical Safety Code. That is the code which, when adopted
by the state public utility regulating body, governs high voltage
generation and distribution. Once they get the electricity to the
customers wiring there work is done. The wiring beyond the demarcation
point is done by Inside Wiremen that are more commonly called
Electricians. That work is governed by the state and local laws that
adopt the National Electric Code by reference. When the power company
wants wiring done in their own office they hire an electrical contractor
that employs electricians because their own outside wiremen do not do
that work.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison