Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a
shop close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to
shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big
a 220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in
the shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's.
Already some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about ground?

"Slim" wrote in message
...
Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a shop
close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big a
220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in the
shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's. Already
some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about ground?

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker; but then you will need a
subpanel to run 20a circuits for your tools. Unless you plan on running
several large 240v tools at the same time, just put a 20a breaker in and run
20a outlets.

Slim wrote:

How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house?

10ga copper is takes 30amp max.


--
If I had something to say, this is where I'd say it.

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker

30 amp breaker


"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Slim" wrote in message
...
Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a
shop close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to
shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big
a 220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in
the shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's.
Already some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about
ground?

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker; but then you will need a
subpanel to run 20a circuits for your tools. Unless you plan on running
several large 240v tools at the same time, just put a 20a breaker in and
run 20a outlets.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker

30 amp breaker

I'm sorry, you are certainly correct! 100' of #10 does not exceed the
voltage drop requirement for 50a, but #10 can't can't handle 50a!

That brings up an interesting question... If there is little voltage drop,
then there is little power being lost as heat. If there is little heat, why
can't it handle greater current? Isn't the capacity of wire related to
heat?

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker

30 amp breaker

I'm sorry, you are certainly correct! 100' of #10 does not exceed the
voltage drop requirement for 50a, but #10 can't can't handle 50a!

That brings up an interesting question... If there is little voltage
drop,
then there is little power being lost as heat. If there is little heat,
why
can't it handle greater current? Isn't the capacity of wire related to
heat?

The capacity is related to the heat of the wire and insulation heat rating.
As # 10 copper wire has a resistance of about 1 ohms per 100 feet and there
are several wires in the cable and not if free air where the heat buildup
can be dissapated very well , it will not take too much power to build up a
lot of heat. Do the calculations and see how much heat you get at the
various currents. It is power is equal to the current squared times the
resistance. Remenber this is for just one wire in a bundle and you have
several wires.

Also, the NEC recognizes the ampacity of AWG 14,12, 10 gauge to be higher,
but still limits those conductors to 15,20, and 30 amps regardless of
insulation type


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
link.net...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker

30 amp breaker

I'm sorry, you are certainly correct! 100' of #10 does not exceed the
voltage drop requirement for 50a, but #10 can't can't handle 50a!

That brings up an interesting question... If there is little voltage
drop,
then there is little power being lost as heat. If there is little heat,
why
can't it handle greater current? Isn't the capacity of wire related to
heat?

The capacity is related to the heat of the wire and insulation heat
rating.
As # 10 copper wire has a resistance of about 1 ohms per 100 feet and
there
are several wires in the cable and not if free air where the heat buildup
can be dissapated very well , it will not take too much power to build up
a
lot of heat. Do the calculations and see how much heat you get at the
various currents. It is power is equal to the current squared times the
resistance. Remenber this is for just one wire in a bundle and you have
several wires.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Slim" wrote in message
...
Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a
shop close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to
shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big
a 220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in
the shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's.
Already some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about
ground?

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker; but then you will need a
subpanel to run 20a circuits for your tools. Unless you plan on running
several large 240v tools at the same time, just put a 20a breaker in and
run 20a outlets.

you use the bare wire as the neutral..but you must have another panel in the
shop with an earth ground.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 03:54:22 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker

30 amp breaker

I'm sorry, you are certainly correct! 100' of #10 does not exceed the
voltage drop requirement for 50a, but #10 can't can't handle 50a!

That brings up an interesting question... If there is little voltage drop,
then there is little power being lost as heat. If there is little heat, why
can't it handle greater current? Isn't the capacity of wire related to
heat?


The size of the breaker (Ampacity) is matched to the size of the wire
to protect it from melting the insulation and catching fire. Voltage
drop is also an important consideration, but that doesn't change the
first statement.

A 50A circuit might have a 1A load connected to it. Great. There
will be very little voltage drop because the current is so low.

Now if the circuit is fully loaded (unusually) to the full 50 Amps,
the voltage drop becomes a big deal and the wire may get warm to hot,
yet still be within its rated value. The power lost in voltage drop
is I^2 x R (I=current R=Resistance of the wire) The squaring
factor is the main consideration. Even with an arbitrary low value
for R, say 0.25 ohms, this yields P = 50 x 50 x 0.25 = 625 watts
distributed evenly through the wire! That is a lot of lost power!

If the wires are confined to cable or conduit, they are going to get
hotter. If they are outside in free air, they can handle more
current for a given size wire (the code allows for derating).

To get a perspective of scale on this, some overloaded or fully loaded
transmission circuits may have 1000 Amps or more running through
individual conductors. If the line is at max. capacity, the
conductors may operate in the temperature range of 100 C (212 F), the
boiling point of water. Thus they are "hot" in more than just the
sense of being "energized" with high voltage.

Beachcomber

In article , "Toller" wrote:

"Slim" wrote in message
.. .
Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a shop
close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big a
220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in the
shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's. Already
some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about ground?

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker;

Excuse me? A 50A breaker on 10ga wire? NOT. 30A is the max.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "digitalmaster" wrote:

you use the bare wire as the neutral

WRONG.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Toller" wrote:

"Slim" wrote in message
.. .
Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a shop
close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big a
220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in the
shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's. Already
some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about ground?

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker;

Excuse me? A 50A breaker on 10ga wire? NOT. 30A is the max.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Incorrect, a 10ga wire can indeed be protected by a 50A circuit breaker
under limited circumstances. Under typical residential conditions 30A is
the max though. See NEC 240.4(D-G) and referenced articles.

The bigger issue is the fact that the 10-2 w/grd does not provide the
required separate neutral and ground conductors to feed a sub panel.
Without the separate neutral and ground conductors you are limited to
using this as a single branch circuit, either a 30A 120V circuit (hot,
neutral and ground), or a 30A 240V circuit (hot, hot and ground). You
can not feed a subpoena or use it as a 120/240V circuit.

Pete C.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Toller"
wrote:

"Slim" wrote in message
. ..
Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a
shop
close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big
a
220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in the
shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's. Already
some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about ground?

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker;

Excuse me? A 50A breaker on 10ga wire? NOT. 30A is the max.

Yup, you caught me in an error; 11 hours after I acknowledged it was an
error.
Good job.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 07:19:46 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Also, the NEC recognizes the ampacity of AWG 14,12, 10 gauge to be higher,
but still limits those conductors to 15,20, and 30 amps regardless of
insulation type


Just to follow your lead... but some people might think of just table
310.16:

For those disputing this, read 2005 NEC 240.4(d)

tom


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker

30 amp breaker

I'm sorry, you are certainly correct! 100' of #10 does not exceed the
voltage drop requirement for 50a, but #10 can't can't handle 50a!

That brings up an interesting question... If there is little voltage
drop,
then there is little power being lost as heat. If there is little heat,
why
can't it handle greater current? Isn't the capacity of wire related to
heat?

The capacity is related to the heat of the wire and insulation heat
rating.
As # 10 copper wire has a resistance of about 1 ohms per 100 feet and
there
are several wires in the cable and not if free air where the heat buildup
can be dissapated very well , it will not take too much power to build up
a
lot of heat. Do the calculations and see how much heat you get at the
various currents. It is power is equal to the current squared times the
resistance. Remenber this is for just one wire in a bundle and you have
several wires.

John Hines wrote:
Slim wrote:


How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house?


10ga copper is takes 30amp max.


--
If I had something to say, this is where I'd say it.

Thanks fro the advice, guys. Looks like I'll put a 20 or 30 amp breaker
in the house and 20 or 30 amp outlet in the shop. Do I have to pound a
ground rod in at garage to ground this puppy?

30 amp on what you gat.if you could run 8 wire with 50 amp you could do
alot more..

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

In article , "Pete C." wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Toller"
wrote:

"Slim" wrote in message
.. .
Need some electrical advice / suggestions on adding a circuit. Got a shop
close to the house with 100ft of 10-2 wgrnd going from fuse box to shop.
How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house? How big a
220 outlet in the shop? Guess I should put in a disconnect panel in the
shop? and maybe some 120 outlets or should I forget the 120's. Already
some 120's out there on a different 10-2 wgrnd. What about ground?

Easy part is that you can't put 120v on a 10/2 240v line; no neutral.
Assuming it is copper, you can use a 50a breaker;

Excuse me? A 50A breaker on 10ga wire? NOT. 30A is the max.

Incorrect, a 10ga wire can indeed be protected by a 50A circuit breaker
under limited circumstances. Under typical residential conditions 30A is
the max though. See NEC 240.4(D-G) and referenced articles.

And which of those apply to this situation?

None.

The bigger issue is the fact that the 10-2 w/grd does not provide the
required separate neutral and ground conductors to feed a sub panel.
Without the separate neutral and ground conductors you are limited to
using this as a single branch circuit, either a 30A 120V circuit (hot,
neutral and ground), or a 30A 240V circuit (hot, hot and ground). You
can not feed a subpoena or use it as a 120/240V circuit.

Of course he can use it to feed a subpanel. What he *can't* do is use it to
feed a subpanel that supplies both 120V and 240V loads.

Consider: if the subpanel supplies only 240V loads, there's no need for a
neutral, and 10/2 WG is fine. Also, if the subpanel supplies only 120V loads,
there's no need for two hots, but of course only every other breaker stab in
the panel will have power.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Slim wrote:
John Hines wrote:
Slim wrote:


How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house?


10ga copper is takes 30amp max.


--
If I had something to say, this is where I'd say it.

Thanks fro the advice, guys. Looks like I'll put a 20 or 30 amp breaker
in the house and 20 or 30 amp outlet in the shop. Do I have to pound a
ground rod in at garage to ground this puppy?


Put a 6-space 100A main-lug panel in the garage and ground it with two
ground rods. I don't remember the minimum spacing. The panel has to be
rated for "Service Equipment", but most of them this size are. The
grounded wire will serve as your neutral and ground (actually, you will
make a new ground at the garage and tie it to the neutral.) Use a 30A
220 breaker in the house. This has to be the only circuit to the
garage, so if there's another 110V circuit for the lights and one
convenience outlet, you have to abandon that circuit. You don't need a
main breaker in the garage panel. (You could use an 8-space panel but
you can only use 6 circuits -- but a 240V circuit takes 2 spaces and
only counts as one of your 6 maximum disconnect switches. Probably a
moot point since you're only using a 30A feeder)

You can't have any metal gas pipes or telephone or CATV wires connecting
the house to the garage.

Use GFCI outlets in the garage, or one GFCI outlet for each 110V circuit
and connect the other outlets to its LOAD terminals.

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:


Put a 6-space 100A main-lug panel in the garage and ground it with two
ground rods. I don't remember the minimum spacing. The panel has to be
rated for "Service Equipment", but most of them this size are. The
grounded wire will serve as your neutral and ground (actually, you will
make a new ground at the garage and tie it to the neutral.) Use a 30A
220 breaker in the house. This has to be the only circuit to the
garage, so if there's another 110V circuit for the lights and one
convenience outlet, you have to abandon that circuit. You don't need a
main breaker in the garage panel. (You could use an 8-space panel but
you can only use 6 circuits -- but a 240V circuit takes 2 spaces and
only counts as one of your 6 maximum disconnect switches. Probably a
moot point since you're only using a 30A feeder)

You can't have any metal gas pipes or telephone or CATV wires connecting
the house to the garage.

got coax and phone and network and alarm, am I screwed?
What if I put just 1 30amp 220v outlet in the shop?


Use GFCI outlets in the garage, or one GFCI outlet for each 110V circuit
and connect the other outlets to its LOAD terminals.

Best regards,
Bob

Slim wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

[snip]


You can't have any metal gas pipes or telephone or CATV wires
connecting the house to the garage.

got coax and phone and network and alarm, am I screwed?

Yes. In that case, you'd have to have a proper subpanel with ground and
neutral separated. How far is this? How much trouble would it be to
run an 8-3 cable (or 6-3 aluminum) and have a nice 40A feeder with a
separate ground and neutral conductors?

What if I put just 1 30amp 220v outlet in the shop?

As long as it's just a grounded 220v with no neutral wire. You could
also put in a tiny subpanel (70A ?) so you could split that into two 15A
or 20A circuits with proper overcurrent protection. And by doing that,
if you trip a breaker it'll probably be one of 'em in the garage instead
of the 30A in the house.

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
Slim wrote:

zxcvbob wrote:

[snip]


You can't have any metal gas pipes or telephone or CATV wires
connecting the house to the garage.


got coax and phone and network and alarm, am I screwed?


Yes. In that case, you'd have to have a proper subpanel with ground and
neutral separated. How far is this?

about 50 ft

How much trouble would it be to
run an 8-3 cable (or 6-3 aluminum) and have a nice 40A feeder with a
separate ground and neutral conductors?

too much


What if I put just 1 30amp 220v outlet in the shop?


As long as it's just a grounded 220v with no neutral wire.

that's the ticket

You could
also put in a tiny subpanel (70A ?) so you could split that into two 15A
or 20A circuits with proper overcurrent protection. And by doing that,
if you trip a breaker it'll probably be one of 'em in the garage instead
of the 30A in the house.

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
Slim wrote:

John Hines wrote:

Slim wrote:


How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house?



10ga copper is takes 30amp max.


--
If I had something to say, this is where I'd say it.


Thanks fro the advice, guys. Looks like I'll put a 20 or 30 amp
breaker in the house and 20 or 30 amp outlet in the shop. Do I have
to pound a ground rod in at garage to ground this puppy?



Put a 6-space 100A main-lug panel in the garage and ground it with two
ground rods. I don't remember the minimum spacing. The panel has to be
rated for "Service Equipment", but most of them this size are. The
grounded wire will serve as your neutral and ground (actually, you will
make a new ground at the garage and tie it to the neutral.) Use a 30A
220 breaker in the house. This has to be the only circuit to the
garage, so if there's another 110V circuit for the lights and one
convenience outlet, you have to abandon that circuit. You don't need a
main breaker in the garage panel. (You could use an 8-space panel but
you can only use 6 circuits -- but a 240V circuit takes 2 spaces and
only counts as one of your 6 maximum disconnect switches. Probably a
moot point since you're only using a 30A feeder)

You can't have any metal gas pipes or telephone or CATV wires connecting
the house to the garage.

Use GFCI outlets in the garage, or one GFCI outlet for each 110V circuit
and connect the other outlets to its LOAD terminals.

Best regards,
Bob

You can't use the bare ground wire as a neutral. If you have a garage
subpanel, the supply ground wire goes to the ground bar. A grounding
electrode is connected to the ground bar (usually 1 ground rod if
measured under 25 ohms or 2 ground rods with no measurement). There is
no neutral and only 220V loads can be connected. Use GFCI breakers.
There can be other house-garage matalic paths - cable, ....

bud--

Bud-- wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:
Slim wrote:

John Hines wrote:

Slim wrote:


How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house?



10ga copper is takes 30amp max.


--
If I had something to say, this is where I'd say it.


Thanks fro the advice, guys. Looks like I'll put a 20 or 30 amp
breaker in the house and 20 or 30 amp outlet in the shop. Do I have
to pound a ground rod in at garage to ground this puppy?



Put a 6-space 100A main-lug panel in the garage and ground it with two
ground rods. I don't remember the minimum spacing. The panel has to
be rated for "Service Equipment", but most of them this size are. The
grounded wire will serve as your neutral and ground (actually, you
will make a new ground at the garage and tie it to the neutral.) Use
a 30A 220 breaker in the house. This has to be the only circuit to
the garage, so if there's another 110V circuit for the lights and one
convenience outlet, you have to abandon that circuit. You don't need
a main breaker in the garage panel. (You could use an 8-space panel
but you can only use 6 circuits -- but a 240V circuit takes 2 spaces
and only counts as one of your 6 maximum disconnect switches.
Probably a moot point since you're only using a 30A feeder)

You can't have any metal gas pipes or telephone or CATV wires
connecting the house to the garage.

Use GFCI outlets in the garage, or one GFCI outlet for each 110V
circuit and connect the other outlets to its LOAD terminals.

Best regards,
Bob

You can't use the bare ground wire as a neutral. If you have a garage
subpanel, the supply ground wire goes to the ground bar. A grounding
electrode is connected to the ground bar (usually 1 ground rod if
measured under 25 ohms or 2 ground rods with no measurement). There is
no neutral and only 220V loads can be connected. Use GFCI breakers.
There can be other house-garage matalic paths - cable, ....

bud--


I was telling him how to connect the existing cable as a service
entrance, since the garage is detached. (not a great solution because
the grounded wire in the feeder is bare) In a follow-up message OP said
he does have other house-to-garage metal paths, so this doesn't work.

Bob

Well he could run the 240 and use a transformer for 120

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "digitalmaster"
wrote:

you use the bare wire as the neutral

WRONG.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years now.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:09:06 -0400, "digitalmaster"
wrote:

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years
now.

Lots of things that "work" are not legal.

Don't understand why 3 wire to a detached structure is not legal in your
area. Mine was inspected and approved. The detached structure must have its
own ground rod.

In article , "digitalmaster" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "digitalmaster"
wrote:

you use the bare wire as the neutral

WRONG.

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years now.

Doesn't matter whether it works or not, it's still a Code violation.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "calhoun" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:09:06 -0400, "digitalmaster"
wrote:

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years
now.

Lots of things that "work" are not legal.

Don't understand why 3 wire to a detached structure is not legal in your
area. Mine was inspected and approved. The detached structure must have its
own ground rod.

In service-entrance cable, or overhead triplex, it's ok. In NM cable, it's
absolutely not ok.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "calhoun"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:09:06 -0400, "digitalmaster"
wrote:

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years
now.

Lots of things that "work" are not legal.

Don't understand why 3 wire to a detached structure is not legal in your
area. Mine was inspected and approved. The detached structure must have
its
own ground rod.

In service-entrance cable, or overhead triplex, it's ok. In NM cable, it's
absolutely not ok.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
inspector in monroe county georgia says it is fine as long as sub panel is
grounded.

Piggy back question on this shop thing...........I have a 220 line on 10ga
3wire plus ground on a 30 amp breaker coming from the main panel to the
detached garage; there is no in ground rod. It is split down to 3/ 110
outlets to run the door opener and 2 15 amp receptacles. I assume that this
is not up to any code. I happen to have a 20 slot panel with 100 A main
breaker and numerous 15-20 A breakers that remain from a recent upgrade to
200 Amp service. What do I need to do to get this set up properly and can I
use the panel I have? Thanks.


"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Slim wrote:
John Hines wrote:
Slim we rote:


How big a 220 breaker can I use in the main panel in the house?


10ga copper is takes 30amp max.


--
If I had something to say, this is where I'd say it.

Thanks fro the advice, guys. Looks like I'll put a 20 or 30 amp breaker
in the house and 20 or 30 amp outlet in the shop. Do I have to pound a
ground rod in at garage to ground this puppy?


Put a 6-space 100A main-lug panel in the garage and ground it with two
ground rods. I don't remember the minimum spacing. The panel has to be
rated for "Service Equipment", but most of them this size are. The
grounded wire will serve as your neutral and ground (actually, you will
make a new ground at the garage and tie it to the neutral.) Use a 30A 220
breaker in the house. This has to be the only circuit to the garage, so
if there's another 110V circuit for the lights and one convenience outlet,
you have to abandon that circuit. You don't need a main breaker in the
garage panel. (You could use an 8-space panel but you can only use 6
circuits -- but a 240V circuit takes 2 spaces and only counts as one of
your 6 maximum disconnect switches. Probably a moot point since you're
only using a 30A feeder)

You can't have any metal gas pipes or telephone or CATV wires connecting
the house to the garage.

Use GFCI outlets in the garage, or one GFCI outlet for each 110V circuit
and connect the other outlets to its LOAD terminals.

Best regards,
Bob

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 07:53:06 -0400, "digitalmaster"
wrote:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "calhoun"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years
now.

inspector in monroe county georgia says it is fine as long as sub panel is
grounded.

The source of the confusion is that you started out by claiming
you were using the bare ground as nuetral, (which is illegal
and dangerous) and now suddenly you have an independant
ground at the service entrance to the detached structure,
and NO nuetral between the two buildings.

Piggy back question on this shop thing...........I have a 220 line on 10ga
3wire plus ground on a 30 amp breaker coming from the main panel to the
detached garage; there is no in ground rod. It is split down to 3/ 110
outlets to run the door opener and 2 15 amp receptacles. I assume that this
is not up to any code. I happen to have a 20 slot panel with 100 A main
breaker and numerous 15-20 A breakers that remain from a recent upgrade to
200 Amp service. What do I need to do to get this set up properly and can I
use the panel I have? Thanks.


The only actual problem is that you have the shop-wiring
and outlets "protected" by a 30A breaker. The EASIEST
fix would be to replace the 30A 2-pole breaker with a
20A or 15A 2-pole breaker, depending on the guage
of the garage wiring. But you probably
want all 660 volt-amps, which means feeding a
sub-panel in the garage, so you can stick
smaller breakers on the individual circuts there.

(Actually, my house has a ceramic thingamajig
with two 15-A fuses in it, which does pretty
much the same thing, but since it's not in a box,
I assume it no longer meets code.)

You should be able to use the panel you have, but
you'll probably have to buy another buss-bar for
the nuetrals.

The two hots go to the main breaker in the sub-panel,
The ground goes to a bround-bar in the panel,
and the nuetral goes to a separate nuetral bar in the
panel. The two bars should NOT be connected,
and the nuetral-bar should be isolated from the
box. Then you just put in normal breakers for
each local circut.

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:43:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "digitalmaster" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article , "digitalmaster"
wrote:

you use the bare wire as the neutral

WRONG.

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years now.

Doesn't matter whether it works or not, it's still a Code violation.


Worse, could kill someone.



tom

wrote:

BTW the proposal to remove 250.32(B)(2) (3 wire feeder to a remote
building) has been accepted so that will go away in 2008 NEC

If I read your post right remote building feeders will have to have an
included ground wire? (Seems like this one has changed each code for a
while.)

Where does one keep up on this stuff?

bud--

In article , Tom The Great wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:43:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "digitalmaster"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.com...
In article , "digitalmaster"
wrote:

you use the bare wire as the neutral

WRONG.

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years now.

Doesn't matter whether it works or not, it's still a Code violation.


Worse, could kill someone.



Which is why it's a Code violation. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

wrote:

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:54:29 -0500, Bud--
wrote:


wrote:

BTW the proposal to remove 250.32(B)(2) (3 wire feeder to a remote
building) has been accepted so that will go away in 2008 NEC

If I read your post right remote building feeders will have to have an
included ground wire? (Seems like this one has changed each code for a
while.)

Where does one keep up on this stuff?

bud--


About 2 cycles ago they added the "no metalic paths" language but
other than that this rule has been fairly constant.
You really need to take a code change class every 3 years to keep up
(usually 2 days).
The code change cycle really takes most of that 3 years. They start
out with the proposals, then they publish them and have comments for a
while on the things they approve. The CMPs review the comments and
fine tune the accepted proposals. Finally it goes into the
coordinating committees to get the language agreed on by everyone to
be sure one CMP is not stepping on another panel's work.
The new code is published and the proposals for changes starts again
when the field gets a look at it.

We've got mandatory classes for licence renewal - a good idea, and I
know the update process. Your comments on 2008 suggest a Ouija board or
another source.

bud--

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 01:06:29 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tom The Great wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:43:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "digitalmaster"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.com...
In article , "digitalmaster"
wrote:

you use the bare wire as the neutral

WRONG.

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years now.

Doesn't matter whether it works or not, it's still a Code violation.


Worse, could kill someone.



Which is why it's a Code violation. :-)


Ha Ha Ha, let's not go there.

Ok, let's...

The utilities use 'unground fault protected' hardware, meaning that
manhole covers, conduit on the sides of telephone poles, and other
equipment, which is allowed by code (NESC), but could kill someone if
they become energized.

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 07:53:06 -0400, "digitalmaster"
wrote:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , "calhoun"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...

try again...shop has been running 220 volt on 3 wire for over 15 years
now.

inspector in monroe county georgia says it is fine as long as sub panel is
grounded.

The source of the confusion is that you started out by claiming
you were using the bare ground as nuetral, (which is illegal
and dangerous) and now suddenly you have an independant
ground at the service entrance to the detached structure,
and NO nuetral between the two buildings.





i clearly stated in my first post about the ground at the shop panel.Soryy i
used the word nuetral..but that is how it is connected...the nuetral and
ground are bonded at the panel.

digitalmaster posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

you use the bare wire as the neutral..but you must have another panel in the
shop with an earth ground.


BZZZT you lose; next contestant please.
--
My boss said I was dumb and apathetic.
I said I don't know and I don't care...

Tekkie