In , Robert Gammon wrote:

Why not buy a 150watt output screw in florescent and forget about buying
another bulb for this lamp for up to 10 years? It takes MUCH less power
to operate, generates MUCH less heat, and only costs less than twice
the price of the 150W bulb (seeing them now for under $10 including
those that rival incandescent lamps for pleasant color - 5000 Kelvin
color temp) Lifetimes on compact florescent bulbs are ranging,
depending on brand from 7,000 operating hours to as much as 15,000
operating hours

I agree with most of this, except 150 watt I would note as
incandescent-equivalent and requiring 42-55 watts of compact fluorescent
actual wattage.
Also, about 5000K being a good color for home use - this is a stark icy
cold pure white close to the color of noontime sunlight with unpolluted
air in a tropical area - slightly more bluish than "cool white
fluorescent".

BTW compact screw ins are available up to 150W input, 650W light
output.

Yes, there are some that big, and they are big, and I suspect major
fixture heating issues - worse even for the bulbs than for the fixtures.
Those problems get down to a dull roar when the compact fluorescent
wattage is only 26 watts, with light output like that of 100 watt
incandescent when things are going well.

The closer the bulb gets to 6500 Kelvin color temp, the happier
you will be with this long term.

I find true only in a couple specific cases:

1. Illuminating areas so large that you have some need of functiobning of
night vision - such as large warehouses or yards outdoors at nighttime -
the high color temperature has a spectrum favorable to stimulating night
vision. Along with the existance of expectation that "dreary gray"
illumination is an improvement over "dreary dim".

2. At illumination levels around or above the 1100-2000 lux typical of
offices and classrooms.

Otherwise, high color temperatures of 4100K and above can have a "dreary
gray" effect only partially mitigated by high color rendering index.


6500 Kelvin is very very close to
pure, stark white (overhead sun on cloudless, pollution free day)

Sun at zenith in a pollution-free area at sea level is 5400 Kelvin. Sun
at high noon on a June day with especially strong wind flow of incoming
especially-low-pullution air in Washington DC is 5200 Kelvin. Sunlight
above the atmosphere is 5700-5800 Kelvin.

5000K often appears slightly bluish. Yes, I do see how the sun often
manages to have higher color temperature (more bluish) than cool white
fluorescent of 4100-4300 Kelvin and such sunlight does not appear bluish,
but 5000K fluorescents tend to appear icy cold pure white to slightly
bluish. Part is from being in context, and part is from human vision
having a known tendency to prefer lower color temperature at lower
illumination levels that are typical for use indoors in homes. I, for
one, prefer 3500K.
Ideally, I surely like for home use 3600-3700K of tungsten being pushed
to a hair short of immediate burnout, or carbon arcs which are roughly
3800-3900K - but these are obviously impractical - but next down my
favorite list is 3500K, a "whiter shade of halogenlike but still warm", a
standard color temperature of triphosphor fluorescent lamps and a few
compacts are available in that color. Next standard one higher is 4100K -
the "cool white color", and available with high color rendering index,
with compacts normally having color rendering index of 82. But that gets
to be a bit on the "stark white" side in most home use. And I thought I
more than average liked my lights whiter than incandescent!

Local stores carry a good selection, but for the broadest range of
choices, do a Google search for light bulbs. I picked www.1000bulbs.com
to do my research. They are located in Mesquite Texas, so pretty
central to most areas of the USA. 60W equivalent bulbs are available
there for just over $2 each.

Keep an eye on what Home Depot is offering. Somewhat often they have
promotional 6-packs of 60-watt-equivalent for $10 with no shipping charge!
Target has equivalents to 60, 75 and 100 watts at about $15 per 4-pack
everyday price.
But if you have a more special need or want to get case quantity
pricing, chances are the online suppliers are the best deal. But be aware
of the color temperature and have this awareness when the bulb is not
"the usual color temperature" of 2700, 2800 or 3000 Kelvin (roughly
incandescent color)!

- Don Klipstein )

In , Paul M. Eldridge wrote
in part:

And I believe any products that are "Energy Star" certified must meet
specific standards in terms of energy efficiency, operating performance
and service life.

True!

But one little catch: The requirement even has some for color - which
should be good!

I believe part of the color requirement is color rendering index - which
"old tech" cool warm white and warm white would not meet, but compact
fluorescents normally meet - unless they are of the types usually seen in
dollar stores!

Another part is in overall color. I have heard of a specific
requirement of 2700-3000 Kelvin so as to have color temperature like that
of incandescents and halogens.
Here is where I see the glitch: 3200K or 3500K is disqualified, while
not being disqualified is a minor deviation from "incandescent color" in
the direction of greenish or pinkish-purplish.

I and probably many others would like compact fluorescents that are
whiter than the very orange-yellow shade of incandescents as well as
compact fluorescents trying to match them in color. Not the 4100K "cool
white color", nor the ice-cold-pure-white 5000K (actually roughly typical
of midday tropical sunlight), nor the even-more-bluish 6500K, but a
"semi-warm-white" or "whitened-incandescent" like the color of projector
lamps and photoflood lamps and movie lights - mid-3000's Kelvin! 3500 is
one that compact fluorescents are available in and I do like that one, but
it is disqualified from energy-star so much less common than
more-incandescent-color-temperature!

Back to most color complaints: It appears to me that most color
complaints come from a mixture of lights having noticeably different
colors, with one being "the newfangled kind". Especially when one is more
greenish and the other is more pinkish-purplish, and typically bias is
against whatever is "newfangled" or whatever is more greenish - double
whammy if a compact fluorescent should glow with the color of a gas mantle
- which is why I suspect compact fluorescents and warm-color fluorescents
in general are more likely to be purplish-pinkish than greenish.

Now for good color easily-available compact fluorescents:

If you don't like pinkish-purplish, then favor lower wattages, and types
with integral electronic ballasts, and especially spirals since those tend
to have integral electronic balasts and have some brands doing well in
that color area. I have seen good results with Philips and Commercial
Electric and Feit Electric in this area. Philips should be good for
more-starts duty. Commercial Electric equivalent to 60W incandescent (14
watts) is even slightly more greenish-yellow than incandescent in my
experience - but that could make them look ugly if mixed with others or
even with incandescents if your are touchy about that - maybe best to use
only the same model for every socket in your dining room fixture!

If you don't like greenish and are so greenish-phobic that you don't
mind a slight bit of pinkish-purplish, then good would be:

* Sylvania 3000K models - not only slightly whiter than most, but also in
my experience slightly pinkish-purplish and I suspect the reason is
"greenish-phobia". These could look a little harsh in color by being a
bit whiter and pinkish-purplish, but color rendition is actually good!

* Higher wattages, especially 26 watts or more. Keep in mind heat
issues, especially in small enclosed fixtures and recessed ceiling
fixtures!

* Philips SLS of at least 23 watts. Lower wattages of Philips SLS I find
to approximate incandescent well and higher wattages I dind to be very
slightly pinkish-purplish.

* Spirals of size unusually compact for their wattage (more when wattage
is 19 watts or more) tend to be a bit more pinkish and less greenish.

* PL-13/F13TT, PLC-13 or 26 / F13 or 26 DTT with magnetic ballasts in my
experience tend to have their deviations-from-incandescent towards
pinkish rather than greenish. Exception: Osram F13DTT/27K, an older
model, appears to me dead-on incandescent rather than pinkish.

- Don Klipstein )

In , Robert Gammon wrote:

I will be purchasing of the 15W mini twist lamps (70W equivalent) on
Tuesday/Wednesday in 6400K color temp.

6400K raises a red flag - I have seen that more than anywhere else as a
claim of "dollar store" compact fluorescents! I have *BIGTIME* experience
with these *consistently* having brightness about or somewhat less than
that of 40 watt standard incandescents, even when claimed incandescent
replacement is as high as 150 watts, even when nomimal wattage is 36 watts
(should be good for well-outshining a 100 watt incandescent or halogen),
even when claimed lumens exceed 1300 (a "standard" 75 watt incandescent is
1190 or so).

Also, I have seen 6400K dollar store ones have color over a range of
6500 to 8000. Be aware that 6400, 6500 and 8000 are all minor variations
of "bluish icy cold slightly-bluer-than-pure-white" with higher color
temp. being more-bluish.

The lamps are just under 5" tall
and about 2 inches wide. They fit ANYWHERE a 60W or 75W incandescent
bulb would fit. Similar bulbs at Walmart (although not 6400K) are a bit
higher, but under $3 each.

Often but not always I see 6-packs of compact fluorescents at Home Depot
for $10.

To get Phillips and Osram brands will require selective shopping as the
only places I can recall seeing them is at Home Deport and/or Lowes.

I think these are good places to get such things - as well as Target.
Even when a 4-pack costs $15, even in a severe bad case where a 15 watt
compact fluorescent dies as quickly as a 60 watt incandescent, at
USA-average residential electricity rate one saves $4.50 per bulb!

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Robert
Gammon wrote in part:

The issue here is HEAT. Incandescent lamps generate ENORMOUS amounts of
HEAT.

Yes, you can insert ANY CF that will fit the fixture.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product.php?product=6728

This bulb only uses 65W of electricity so it will not overheat the
fixture.

Non-radiant heat will be about the same as or a little more than that of
a 100 watt incandescent based on my temperature rise measurements of a
fixture with various bulbs - extrapolated from a 42 watt compact
fluorescent heating a globe very slightly worse than a 60 watt
incandescent does.
The 65-watt CF could even heat a fixture almost as badly as a 150 watt
incandescent, due to incandescents having heat balance shifting towards
radiant from convected/conducted as wattage increases throughout the range
of using the traditional argon-nitrogen gas fill in incandescents!

Of course, a 65 watt CF roughly matches to somewhat exceeds the light
output of a 200 watt incandescent!

Its light output is 3400 lumens or roughly that of a 250W
bulb!!

"Standard" 150 watt incandescent - about 2900 lumens
"Standard" 200 watt incandescent - about 4000 lumens

8,000 hours of rated life means that you will replace it 14/ ot
1/8th as often as you replace a 150W incandescent bulb. Its 3.74 inches
wide 9.65 inches tall. This bulb has near perfect color rendition with
color temp of 6500 Kelvin.

Icy cold bluish daylight color about that of overcast sky, and I find
overcast sky to be more like 6000 even. Got anything in the 3400-3900 K
range - like carbon arcs, movie lights, projector lamps, incandescent
lamps overvolted to a hair short of immediate burnout? Got anything
nominally 3500K - too white for "Energy Star" due to deviating towards
pure white from incandescent, but a nice "semi warm white" or "whitish
incandescent" or "whiter-shade-of-halogen" color"? If not, then I would
rather take an incandescent approximation in the 2700-3000K range for use
in my home!

The downside, if any is the $20.95 price plus tax and shipping.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , I, Don Klipstein wrote
with a calculation error to correct:

I did find need to correct myself! Go down about a page or two to see
figures that I screwed up and my corrections - with life extension of
incandescents remaining a losing proposition! 2 lines a page or two down
have numbers I need to fix by a factor of 10 - but should one need to
stick with incandescents, ones 60 watts or more are most economical with
filament design to run aggressively hot to the point of shortening life to
the 750-1,000 hour range!

Keep in mind where most of the cost of obtaining and operating an
incandescent lightbulb is - the electricity to operate it!

Suppose you get a 75 watt incandescent costing $1.50 at a convenience
store (as opposed to less per 4-pack at Lowes) and designed to last 750
hours and producing 1210 lumens, and a 100 watt one with the filament
being operated less aggressively operated so as to produce the same amount
of light - at which point it would have life expectancy in the 10,000's of
hours. For the sake of argument, suppose the 100 watt lightbulb with same
light output as the 750 hour $1.25 lightbulb lasted forever and was given
away for free! (As opposed to 100 watt dollar store, Sunbeam and
Polaraoid lightbulbs costing $1 per 3-pack, producing less light than a
usual 750 hour 75W lightbulb and with rated life expectancy of 1000 or
1100 hours.)

Cost over 750 hours:

75 watt 750 hour lightbulb hypothetical free 100 watt forever-bulb

Lightbulb $1.50 Nothing
(13-30 cents if
you shop around)

Electricity (at
USA-average
residential rate
10 cents per KWH) $56.25 $75.00

CORRECT FIGURES: $5.62 $7.50

Bottom line $56.38-$57.75 plus $75.00
labor of replacing bulb

CORRECT TO: $5.75-$7.13 plus $7.50
bulb change labor

Any idea now why lightbulbs often have filaments run so aggressively
hot? A few decades ago there were even congressional hearings into
this matter!

- Don Klipstein )

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , sherwindu wrote:

Right you are. Wrong inventor, but the idea is the same. I realize that
smaller bulbs
are more popular, but that's still no justification for the price
differential. By the way,
that is a one way bulb. Three ways are just as expensive, but there I can
see a difference in technology that might warrent a price increase.


I thought a 150 watt bulb costs a mediumish-low price of a 4-pack of
100-watt ones (maybe $1.75), and a 50-100-150 watt costs much more still -
a little below the $3-$3.50 supermarket price of a 4-pack of 100 watt
ones.

It appears to me that supermarkets need to make money from 25-100 watt
lightbulbs in order to pay the rent on shelf space for the 150 watt ones
that need to be displayed because supermarkets would lose customer loyalty
without 150 watt lightbulbs, and also to pay for what they have to give
out in pre-Thanksgiving prime shopping period in order to build or
maintain year-round market share.
Ever notice that supermarkets often don't even have 200 watt lightbulbs?
Ever see supermarkets with 300 watt ones - even home centers often don't
sell those, but many hardware stores do!

- Don Klipstein )

In the Walmart store I visited, 100W gets at least two full shelves,
multiple brands offered, and is parked at eye level. 75W, 60W are in
the same general area, again multiple shelves, mutiple brands. As I
recall, at least two full units of rack space, floor to top shelf were
devoted to the 60W-75W-100W incandescents

150W had 4 TOTAL bulbs in the store partially hidden by some literature
hanging from a vertical riser. Hanging right above them were the
compact spiral CFs

Don Klipstein wrote:
In , Robert Gammon wrote:


Why not buy a 150watt output screw in florescent and forget about buying
another bulb for this lamp for up to 10 years? It takes MUCH less power
to operate, generates MUCH less heat, and only costs less than twice
the price of the 150W bulb (seeing them now for under $10 including
those that rival incandescent lamps for pleasant color - 5000 Kelvin
color temp) Lifetimes on compact florescent bulbs are ranging,
depending on brand from 7,000 operating hours to as much as 15,000
operating hours


I agree with most of this, except 150 watt I would note as
incandescent-equivalent and requiring 42-55 watts of compact fluorescent
actual wattage.
Also, about 5000K being a good color for home use - this is a stark icy
cold pure white close to the color of noontime sunlight with unpolluted
air in a tropical area - slightly more bluish than "cool white
fluorescent".


We are in agreement on specs 150W incandescent and 40-42W CFs are rated
for approx same light output about 2600 lumens. Our color preferences
are different. I live is a HOT climate, so a COLD appearing light with
bluish overtones is psychologically GREAT!!
BTW compact screw ins are available up to 150W input, 650W light
output.


Yes, there are some that big, and they are big, and I suspect major
fixture heating issues - worse even for the bulbs than for the fixtures.
Those problems get down to a dull roar when the compact fluorescent
wattage is only 26 watts, with light output like that of 100 watt
incandescent when things are going well.


See my other comments, this MONSTER of a lamp has specialized usage for
large area lighting in warehouse/box store lighting and therapeutic
applications. I am NOT advocating its use in normal residential
applications. It won't screw into a standard fixture as it has a Mogul
base. Mogul bases are common in the lighting systems used in the big
box stores, especially if they use something other that linear fluorescents.
The closer the bulb gets to 6500 Kelvin color temp, the happier
you will be with this long term.


I find true only in a couple specific cases:

1. Illuminating areas so large that you have some need of functiobning of
night vision - such as large warehouses or yards outdoors at nighttime -
the high color temperature has a spectrum favorable to stimulating night
vision. Along with the existance of expectation that "dreary gray"
illumination is an improvement over "dreary dim".

2. At illumination levels around or above the 1100-2000 lux typical of
offices and classrooms.

Otherwise, high color temperatures of 4100K and above can have a "dreary
gray" effect only partially mitigated by high color rendering index.



6500 Kelvin is very very close to
pure, stark white (overhead sun on cloudless, pollution free day)


Sun at zenith in a pollution-free area at sea level is 5400 Kelvin. Sun
at high noon on a June day with especially strong wind flow of incoming
especially-low-pullution air in Washington DC is 5200 Kelvin. Sunlight
above the atmosphere is 5700-5800 Kelvin.

5000K often appears slightly bluish. Yes, I do see how the sun often
manages to have higher color temperature (more bluish) than cool white
fluorescent of 4100-4300 Kelvin and such sunlight does not appear bluish,
but 5000K fluorescents tend to appear icy cold pure white to slightly
bluish. Part is from being in context, and part is from human vision
having a known tendency to prefer lower color temperature at lower
illumination levels that are typical for use indoors in homes. I, for
one, prefer 3500K.
Ideally, I surely like for home use 3600-3700K of tungsten being pushed
to a hair short of immediate burnout, or carbon arcs which are roughly
3800-3900K - but these are obviously impractical - but next down my
favorite list is 3500K, a "whiter shade of halogenlike but still warm", a
standard color temperature of triphosphor fluorescent lamps and a few
compacts are available in that color. Next standard one higher is 4100K -
the "cool white color", and available with high color rendering index,
with compacts normally having color rendering index of 82. But that gets
to be a bit on the "stark white" side in most home use. And I thought I
more than average liked my lights whiter than incandescent!


Local stores carry a good selection, but for the broadest range of
choices, do a Google search for light bulbs. I picked www.1000bulbs.com
to do my research. They are located in Mesquite Texas, so pretty
central to most areas of the USA. 60W equivalent bulbs are available
there for just over $2 each.


Keep an eye on what Home Depot is offering. Somewhat often they have
promotional 6-packs of 60-watt-equivalent for $10 with no shipping charge!
Target has equivalents to 60, 75 and 100 watts at about $15 per 4-pack
everyday price.
But if you have a more special need or want to get case quantity
pricing, chances are the online suppliers are the best deal. But be aware
of the color temperature and have this awareness when the bulb is not
"the usual color temperature" of 2700, 2800 or 3000 Kelvin (roughly
incandescent color)!

- Don Klipstein )

Color temps are important, we agree. We disagree on specific
applications, in part because of where we live. A cool light is a
psychological boost in a HOT climate. I wear shorts, sandals, and tee
shirts YEAR ROUND. Natural fiber clothing is ALWAYS preferable because
it wicks away perspiration MUCH better.

Don Klipstein wrote:
In , Robert Gammon wrote:


I will be purchasing of the 15W mini twist lamps (70W equivalent) on
Tuesday/Wednesday in 6400K color temp.


6400K raises a red flag - I have seen that more than anywhere else as a
claim of "dollar store" compact fluorescents! I have *BIGTIME* experience
with these *consistently* having brightness about or somewhat less than
that of 40 watt standard incandescents, even when claimed incandescent
replacement is as high as 150 watts, even when nomimal wattage is 36 watts
(should be good for well-outshining a 100 watt incandescent or halogen),
even when claimed lumens exceed 1300 (a "standard" 75 watt incandescent is
1190 or so).

Also, I have seen 6400K dollar store ones have color over a range of
6500 to 8000. Be aware that 6400, 6500 and 8000 are all minor variations
of "bluish icy cold slightly-bluer-than-pure-white" with higher color
temp. being more-bluish.


These lamps appear to be made by Feit Electric, 1000bulbs lists the PN
with FEII as a part of the part number.

Feit gives a good graphic of color temps on its web site.

http://www.feit.com/colortemp.html

Incandescent/candle/normal CF is about 2700K

Halogens come in at about 3200K

Cloudless day is about 5500K

partially overcast day is about 6500K

the whitest area of the chart is around 4000K, so YES 5000K and 6400K
lamps will be slightly to somewhat blue.

Feit calls their lamps standard, Cool White, and Daylight. 1000bulbs
shows 2700/500/6400K color temps all with the same base PN
FC15/FEIIS15Wxx where xx is the color temp 27/5/64

I do not shop dollar stores for CFs. Only big box and internet sites.

Noozer wrote:

150's cost more because nobody buys them.

It's the work of the all-powerful and wealthy climatology cartel with
their global warming nonsense, to make Americans live in the dark to
"save energy" and "reduce global warming".

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , I, Don Klipstein wrote
with a calculation error to correct:

I did find need to correct myself! Go down about a page or two to see
figures that I screwed up and my corrections - with life extension of
incandescents remaining a losing proposition! 2 lines a page or two down
have numbers I need to fix by a factor of 10 - but should one need to
stick with incandescents, ones 60 watts or more are most economical with
filament design to run aggressively hot to the point of shortening life to
the 750-1,000 hour range!


Keep in mind where most of the cost of obtaining and operating an
incandescent lightbulb is - the electricity to operate it!

Suppose you get a 75 watt incandescent costing $1.50 at a convenience
store (as opposed to less per 4-pack at Lowes) and designed to last 750
hours and producing 1210 lumens, and a 100 watt one with the filament
being operated less aggressively operated so as to produce the same amount
of light - at which point it would have life expectancy in the 10,000's of
hours. For the sake of argument, suppose the 100 watt lightbulb with same
light output as the 750 hour $1.25 lightbulb lasted forever and was given
away for free! (As opposed to 100 watt dollar store, Sunbeam and
Polaraoid lightbulbs costing $1 per 3-pack, producing less light than a
usual 750 hour 75W lightbulb and with rated life expectancy of 1000 or
1100 hours.)

Cost over 750 hours:

75 watt 750 hour lightbulb hypothetical free 100 watt forever-bulb

Lightbulb $1.50 Nothing
(13-30 cents if
you shop around)

Electricity (at
USA-average
residential rate
10 cents per KWH) $56.25 $75.00


CORRECT FIGURES: $5.62 $7.50


Bottom line $56.38-$57.75 plus $75.00
labor of replacing bulb


CORRECT TO: $5.75-$7.13 plus $7.50
bulb change labor


Any idea now why lightbulbs often have filaments run so aggressively
hot? A few decades ago there were even congressional hearings into
this matter!


- Don Klipstein )
Good catch, I was about to respond then looked to
see if you found the error.

Your point is certainly valid, electricity not
bulb cost is the main factor. I have no idea
what the operating life time of most ight bulbs in
my house is, but it is highly variable.

I have a good idea of the operating hours of my 60
watt desk lamp which is close to 2,000 hours a
year. Bulbs burn out somewhat more frequently
than once per year. Thus bulb life is probably in
the 1500 hour area. Even bathroom lights (four 60
watt bulbs) have to have an average life of well
over 750 hours based on burn out replacement and
an average on time of 2 hours perday.

I recently installed two led nightlights (cycles
through 6 colors) and calculated the annual cost
based on the wattage and local power costs.
Assuming the light remains on 24 hours a day, the
cost would be 32 cents per year. Wonder what the
operating life will really be. Fairly long, I
hope, since each light was $3.00 (in a pack of 5).