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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?

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Pete C.
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

SQLit wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?


What is the point of putting a new panel being fed from "junk" as you
describe it? Where I live an "all in one" is what we use. Leaving the old
panel there and spend all the time to move everything seems like a waste of
time to me. I suggest that waiting to do the job right would be better.


Most of the country does not use the "all-in-one" outdoor service
panels, they are almost exclusively found in the very southern parts of
the country. Nobody in Maine for example will put up with having to go
outside in -20 weather to reset a tripped breaker.

As for the original question, it is perfectly reasonable to use a 200A
rated panel with a smaller main breaker. If you look at the ratings
label on a 200A panel it lists 200A as the maximum main breaker sizes it
is rated for, the minimum is the smallest they make that will fit the
panel.

Check with the utility as the service drop and meter socket may be good
for more than the existing 100A service. You may be able to use a 150A
main breaker without changing the service up to the panel.

Pete C.
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

As for the original question, it is perfectly reasonable to use a 200A
rated panel with a smaller main breaker. If you look at the ratings
label on a 200A panel it lists 200A as the maximum main breaker sizes
it
is rated for, the minimum is the smallest they make that will fit the
panel.


Check with the utility as the service drop and meter socket may be good

for more than the existing 100A service. You may be able to use a 150A
main breaker without changing the service up to the panel.


Pete C.
-------------------------------------------------------

HEY THATS AWESOME THANKS!Will have him call the utility company.

Perhaps 15 years ago the service was upgraded from 60 amp fuse to 100
amp, about 5 years ago the 3 wire service drop was replaced with
triplex.

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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

Joe FPE panels have KNOWN BAD BREAKERS THAT OFTEN DONT TRIP They are
a serious fire hazard!

So the benefit is not having his house burn down!

besides just swapping the panel is a DIY project for a couple
neighbors. they will do it safe.

mess with the drop other than pulling the meter will cause all sorts of
troubles.

besides many around here want a permanent standby generator that will
require a new panel anyway.

this is a interim step to prevent a fire and add more breaker slots,
his panel is jammed



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PrecisionMechanical
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?


wrote in message
oups.com...
A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?


The mains breaker only protects the buss that it's being tasked with
feeding....and so it follows that it's utility as to providing overcurrent
protection has absolutely nothing to do with the ampacity of the circuit
that it's being fed from.

IOW, your overcurrent protection likely resides at the primary transformer
connection.....

Kapish ???

--

SVL


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PrecisionMechanical
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?


wrote in message
oups.com...
A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?


Absolutely nothing at all wrong here--he'll just need to have the utility
shut down power to the mains for long enough to make the panel replacement.

Though, ( IMO ) even more "creative" would be to try and finish the job in a
single shot--Bring out a new mast in order to allow the utility transfer
power to.......in essence, you've now replaced everything, but you are
temporaraliy sub-feeding the new panel until the actual utility feeder
transfer takes place...regardless, the new mast isnt ever energized from
either direction unless the 200 amp mains breaker has actually been thrown.

--

SVL




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Pete C.
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

PrecisionMechanical wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?


The mains breaker only protects the buss that it's being tasked with
feeding....and so it follows that it's utility as to providing overcurrent
protection has absolutely nothing to do with the ampacity of the circuit
that it's being fed from.

IOW, your overcurrent protection likely resides at the primary transformer
connection.....

Kapish ???

--

SVL


Partly true. The main breaker in the panel not only protects the panel
bus, it also provides a level of protection for the service drop by
disconnecting large faults from that service drop. The protection for
the drop itself is basically the fuse on the primary side of the utility
transformer which only has a chance of protecting the service drop in
the event of a dead short which might blow the fuse before the drop
melts.

Since the utility transformer is normally supplying multiple homes and
indeed the utility transformers are rated to handle a 100% overload for
24 hours without damage, it is entirely possible to overload and
incinerate the service drop without any harm to the utility transformer
or it's primary fuse.

Pete C.
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PrecisionMechanical
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
PrecisionMechanical wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to

replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?


The mains breaker only protects the buss that it's being tasked with
feeding....and so it follows that it's utility as to providing

overcurrent
protection has absolutely nothing to do with the ampacity of the circuit
that it's being fed from.

IOW, your overcurrent protection likely resides at the primary

transformer
connection.....

Kapish ???

--

SVL


Partly true. The main breaker in the panel not only protects the panel
bus, it also provides a level of protection for the service drop by
disconnecting large faults from that service drop. The protection for
the drop itself is basically the fuse on the primary side of the utility
transformer which only has a chance of protecting the service drop in
the event of a dead short which might blow the fuse before the drop
melts.

Since the utility transformer is normally supplying multiple homes and
indeed the utility transformers are rated to handle a 100% overload for
24 hours without damage, it is entirely possible to overload and
incinerate the service drop without any harm to the utility transformer
or it's primary fuse.



Very good.

Now, suggest read NEC 230.9....because nobody here can give out the correct
answer until the service entrance conductor size has been determined.

--

SVL






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John Hines
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

" wrote:

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?


It isn't un-safe, it may be un-needed. If you replace the main panel,
you can put in a sub-panel right next to it, which is fed off the main
breaker. This allows more breakers than a standard 100 amp panel can
support. (or do the same with a 200 amp).

This was the suggested way of supporting more breakers than the panel
could handle, by the village inspector, who was inspecting my panel
upgrade, when I asked about it, 100 amp in a 200 amp panel.

As other have pointed out, and I have also done, is to upgrade to
125amps, which in the case I did, only required a size bigger on the
ground wire.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
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zxcvbob
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

SQLit wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?




What is the point of putting a new panel being fed from "junk" as you
describe it? Where I live an "all in one" is what we use. Leaving the old
panel there and spend all the time to move everything seems like a waste of
time to me. I suggest that waiting to do the job right would be better.




He wants to replace the whole panel and get rid of the junk, but doesn't
want to pay to upgrade the service conductors, service conduit, and
meter base. A 200 amp panel will give him 40 slots instead of... a much
smaller number that I don't remember.

Check to see what size service you have; it might be big enough for a
150A or 200A already. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with installing
a 100A main breaker in a 200A panel if it's listed for it. Check the
fine print on the sticker inside the door of the new panel and it should
give alternate main breakers.

Bob
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Tom Horne, Electrician
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

PrecisionMechanical wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

A good friend has a FPE 100 amp cabinet. Obviously the breakers are
JUNK! He lacks the $ for a new service right now. He wonders if he
could replace the 100 FBE cabinet with a 200 amp new service but
install for now a 100 amp main breaker till he has the bucks to replace
the service completely.

Anything unsafe about this rather creative idea?



The mains breaker only protects the buss that it's being tasked with
feeding....and so it follows that it's utility as to providing overcurrent
protection has absolutely nothing to do with the ampacity of the circuit
that it's being fed from.

IOW, your overcurrent protection likely resides at the primary transformer
connection.....

Kapish ???

--

SVL



The Over Load Protection for your service entry conductors is your main
breaker or fuses. The only fault protection for your service
drop/lateral and service entry conductors is the supply fuse for the
transformer. Given that it is sized to the entire ampacity of the
transformer a lot of damage will occur before it opens. That is why it
is so important that the load calculation be carefully done and the main
Over Current Protective Device be properly sized. If the Service
conductors are properly sized the likelihood of an overload, that will
lead to insulation breakdown, and a fault condition developing, is very
small.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
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Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

wrote:
Joe FPE panels have KNOWN BAD BREAKERS THAT OFTEN DONT TRIP They are
a serious fire hazard!

So the benefit is not having his house burn down!

besides just swapping the panel is a DIY project for a couple
neighbors. they will do it safe.

mess with the drop other than pulling the meter will cause all sorts of
troubles.

besides many around here want a permanent standby generator that will
require a new panel anyway.

this is a interim step to prevent a fire and add more breaker slots,
his panel is jammed


With safer breakers and a generator interlock as the objective I would
suggest that you use a 200 amp main breaker panel with a generator
interlock kit installed.

You install a 100 ampere breaker as your generator breaker but use it as
you main breaker until you can afford to upgrade the service entry
conductors. If you already have a generator you can use the panels main
breaker to connect it to the service until you can upgrade. Since the
generator has built in over current protection the size of the breaker
used to connect it through the interlock kit need only be larger than
the generators built in breakers. Since the 100 ampere breaker will
protect your existing service entry conductors from overload there is
nothing dangerous about this technique.

If you connect the existing service entry conductors to the 200 ampere
main breaker there will be a serious risk of overload and a burn down of
your service entry conductors until the fault burns clear of ground, the
supply transformer's cutout opens of the structure takes fire from the
heat of the arcing service entry conductors.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
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Tom Horne
 
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Default 200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker?

Ignoramus5124 wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:48:17 GMT, Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department wrote:

wrote:

Joe FPE panels have KNOWN BAD BREAKERS THAT OFTEN DONT TRIP They are
a serious fire hazard!

So the benefit is not having his house burn down!

besides just swapping the panel is a DIY project for a couple
neighbors. they will do it safe.

mess with the drop other than pulling the meter will cause all sorts of
troubles.

besides many around here want a permanent standby generator that will
require a new panel anyway.

this is a interim step to prevent a fire and add more breaker slots,
his panel is jammed


With safer breakers and a generator interlock as the objective I would
suggest that you use a 200 amp main breaker panel with a generator
interlock kit installed.



Tom, are there any UL approved interlock kits?

i


You install a 100 ampere breaker as your generator breaker but use it as
you main breaker until you can afford to upgrade the service entry
conductors. If you already have a generator you can use the panels main
breaker to connect it to the service until you can upgrade. Since the
generator has built in over current protection the size of the breaker
used to connect it through the interlock kit need only be larger than
the generators built in breakers. Since the 100 ampere breaker will
protect your existing service entry conductors from overload there is
nothing dangerous about this technique.

If you connect the existing service entry conductors to the 200 ampere
main breaker there will be a serious risk of overload and a burn down of
your service entry conductors until the fault burns clear of ground, the
supply transformer's cutout opens of the structure takes fire from the
heat of the arcing service entry conductors.

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison




Yes there are UL listed interlock kits. The one I've used is SquareD
but now Cutler Hammer also makes one for there larger main breaker
panels. The SquareD model interlocks the main breaker handle with the
handle of the breaker in the 2-4 slot. The breaker in the 2-4 slot is
fastened in place by the kit so that it is suitable to serve as a supply
to the buss bars. Only one of the two interlocked handles can be moved
to the on position at a time. The best aspect of these kits is the
simplicity of the resultant operation. You open the main breaker, move
the guard plate, and close the generator breaker. To return to public
power you reverse the process. The generator breaker can be supplied
from a permanent generator or a weatherproof cord inlet that allows the
connection of a portable generator to the service equipment panel's buss
bars. You can then run any load in the home that is within the ampacity
that the generator will provide.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
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