With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...

Mark

wrote in message
...
With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...

The rest of the world managed it.

wrote in message
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Most of the molding machines we buy that are metric use standard pipe sizes
of BPP sizes readily available. We make and export Insulating Concrete Forms
(ICF's as www.integraspec.com ) to Canada and sometimes Europe in standard
US sizes and they work with them OK. I doubt we will ever see a pure metric
society.

"Toller" wrote in message
...
The rest of the world managed it.

Not much of the rest of the world had to change anything. They've been doing
everything in metrics right along. The problem would be if they had to
convert to the English system. They don't specify "3.856 X 5.891 electrical
boxes - they're probably called 4 X 6 boxes, the CM being taken for granted.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:52:17 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...

The rest of the world managed it.

In Canada the change to metric (somewhat) happened some time ago,
today most materials are still standard. However hardware, fuel etc.
ids sold by kg and litre and alows them to charge more for less. From
my view it had a bit to do with merchandising and maximizing what the
market could possibly bear. jesse

I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator. Also, there is the
issue of precision. at various times, you might need precision within
a 32nd, 16th, 1/8th, and so on. with metric you have mm, cm, and
meters.

It's also not true that the whole world has managed. I have a friend
in Chile who tells me they have converted to metric, but not in
building materials.

"PanHandler" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message
...
The rest of the world managed it.

Not much of the rest of the world had to change anything. They've been
doing everything in metrics right along.
Exactly. Had we done it when the rest of the world did it would have been
easy. Had we done it when it was required by law (1970?) it would have been
harder. Doing it now would be harder still. Doing it 20 years from now,
hardest.

Of course, we can wait until the rest of the world finds we have lost our
economic power and they no longer have to accomodate us. Without much of an
economy, it will be easy.

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
...

With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...


The rest of the world managed it.


Hi,
Metric system is far more accurate. One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to
moon. The sooner the better going to metric. Kids today learn metric
in schools.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Most of the molding machines we buy that are metric use standard pipe
sizes of BPP sizes readily available. We make and export Insulating
Concrete Forms (ICF's as www.integraspec.com ) to Canada and sometimes
Europe in standard US sizes and they work with them OK. I doubt we will
ever see a pure metric society.

Our share of the global economy is rapidly diminishing. It is just a matter
of time when the rest of the world decides that dealing with English
measurement to accomodate us is just too much trouble.

marson wrote:

I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator. Also, there is the
issue of precision. at various times, you might need precision within
a 32nd, 16th, 1/8th, and so on. with metric you have mm, cm, and
meters.

It's also not true that the whole world has managed. I have a friend
in Chile who tells me they have converted to metric, but not in
building materials.

Hmmm,
You mean Imperial system is more accurate than Metric? I am afraid not!

"marson" wrote in message
oups.com...
I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator.

First of all, they would have specified that window opening as 84 cm not
83.625 cm, so halving it is pretty easy. The decimal system is a cinch to
work with. As far as precision is concerned, try microns or nanometers!

wrote:
With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

You're missing the beauty of the whole system. Right now you're doing
conversions when you need more accuracy, and more complicated
conversions. If you are measuring a big distance you speak of miles,
and think 5280 feet, if it's a room sized distance you talk of feet,
and think 12 inches, if it's the width of a board, you think inches.
If you need to be more precise you have to switch to fractions
(remember the fun you had learning fractions as a kid?).

Now compare that to the metric system where to increase or decrease the
unit of measurement you just change the name of the unit, and think 10
- either multiply or divide. There are no decimal points necessary to
deal with as you just change the unit of measurement. The unit of
measurement is the decimal point. If you want to stick with a
particular unit, you'll have to use a decimal point, but the conversion
is still less complex than dividing by 12, 5280, 16 or whatever.

Now, about your point about plywood - I'm glad you brought that up -
how thick is 1/2" plywood? It's 7/16", not a full 1/2", and that works
out to .4375". Do you ask for .4375" plywood, or even 7/16" plywood?
Of course not. It's rounded off as a convention. Everyone learns that
the first time they use a building material. Whether it's a 2"x4" not
being either 2" or 4", plywood, or whatever. You've already learned to
make that mental conversion and don't even think about it. The only
time you need to think about it, say when you're building up members or
sheets, you remember it and make the mental adjustment. Metric plywood
doesn't work that way. The number designation for the thickness of
metric plywood indicates the actual thickness - no conversion
necessary.

Read this:
http://www.cps.gov.on.ca/english/pla...10/M-9010L.pdf

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

A lot of the older houses I work on have studs that are close to the
full 2" thickness for lumber, and the actual height for the old
materials is also greater than the current materials you buy. You know
it, and you just deal with it.

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Maybe they'd change the size of the box, or maybe you'd just ask for it
by a rounded off number designation. They could call it a B series
box. It really doesn't matter.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

That article I linked to goes into that. Right now I have to shim out,
or cut down to make current materials match up with the old stuff. How
would the situation be any different. I'm not that old of a guy, and
I've seen the nominal lumber and plywood sized drop significantly.
When I started out a 2x was 1 5/8" thick, then they dropped to 1 9/16",
now I'm seeing 1 1/2". This is before shrinkage! It's like the
"improvements" that candy bar makers make when they make the bar
smaller and the packaging larger. You know, annoying!

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

Wouldn't have to.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...

That's another idiotic thing about the measurement system we use. We
use 16d nails, the d stands for penny, and we ask for a 16 penny nail,
even though the letter designation is the wrong letter and the penny
hasn't had anything to do with the size of the nail for over a century.
A 16d nail is ~3.5" long, which is 8.89 centimeters, you'd just ask
for a 9 cm nail. Since the 16d nail doesn't relate to anything about
the nail _anyway_, they might keep the name and it wouldn't matter.
You'd still know it was roughly the right size.

Getting your mind around an idea, particularly one that seems to
represent a major shift in thinking, can be problematic. Switching to
the metric system would be one of those situations where the thought
and apprehension beforehand would be worse than dealing with the
different dimensions once the conversion to the new system had been
made.

R

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:JLNQf.135182$H%4.127323@pd7tw2no...

Metric system is far more accurate. One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to
moon. The sooner the better going to metric. Kids today learn metric
in schools.

Here's a handy little free tool I use all the time, called the Phoxel Unit
Converter:
http://www.geocities.com/phoxel

It covers everything from length to cooking units.

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Metric system is far more accurate.

Neither system is more accurate. The person or apparatus taking the
measurement is either more or less accurate.

One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to moon.

I thought we only had one moon. Wasn't it the Apollo mission that set
foot on the moon first?

R

"PanHandler" wrote in message
...

Here's a handy little free tool I use all the time, called the Phoxel Unit
Converter:
http://www.geocities.com/phoxel

It covers everything from length to cooking units.

SORRY - expired URL, here's the correct address:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/...onverter.shtml

marson wrote:
I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator.

Convenient that you chose an even number easily divided by two. How
about dividing 33 cm by three? That's just as equally arbitrary and
meaningless example.

Also, there is the
issue of precision. at various times, you might need precision within
a 32nd, 16th, 1/8th, and so on. with metric you have mm, cm, and
meters.

How is that a difference? Making a semi-unit conversion is certainly
not easier than moving a decimal point. To add this string of numbers
3/16" + 1' 5/8" + 37 yards 31/32" you have to find the greatest common
denominator and convert all of the others, so you have to doing
multiplication above and below the line, plus you have to convert yards
by that not very convenient 3. In metric, adding this string of
numbers 33 cm + 112mm + 42 m only requires you to add the requisite
number of zeroes to the greater-unit numbers.

You're also ignoring the obvious fact that you are _already_ using the
decimal system. Say you need precision greater than 32nds or 64ths,
what do you do? You move to the ******* metric system and start using
hundreths and thousandths. Now the two systems converge - where
greater accuracy and precision is required, they both resort to just
moving the decimal point. No conversions necessary.

R

PanHandler wrote:
"PanHandler" wrote in message

Here's a handy little free tool I use all the time, called the Phoxel Unit
Converter:
http://www.geocities.com/phoxel

It covers everything from length to cooking units.

SORRY - expired URL, here's the correct address:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/...onverter.shtml

I use an online converter:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/

R

PanHandler wrote:
"marson" wrote in message
oups.com...

I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator.


First of all, they would have specified that window opening as 84 cm not
83.625 cm, so halving it is pretty easy. The decimal system is a cinch to
work with. As far as precision is concerned, try microns or nanometers!


Hmmm,
Anyone has 8 fingers? 16 toes?. LOL!
Real logical numbering is binary.

According to :

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...

The above are purely arbitrary naming conventions, they don't
have any direct relationship to specific measurement systems.

And how long is a 16d nail anyway? First, you need to know what
_kind_ of nail it is. Back when they were really measured that
way, you also had to know the inflation rate.

And just how big is a barrel? It depends on what you put in
it. There are dozens of different size "standard" barrels
in the US alone.

SAE/Imperial grew by accretion by a whole host of arbitrary
"measures" which weren't measures of the relevant things.
I mean, indicating nail length by how much a 100 of the things
cost more than a century ago? Is that silly or what?

The value of metric is that all of the measures (length, weight,
volume etc) are directly related by simple rules. And secondly,
things specified by metric are actually based on _measurements_
other than bizarre centuries old irrelevancies.

Wouldn't it be nice to know how big a #36 or "A" drillbit is
without having to resort to a book?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 04:49:45 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
...

With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...


The rest of the world managed it.


Hi,
Metric system is far more accurate. One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to
moon. The sooner the better going to metric. Kids today learn metric
in schools.

NOT.......
Whether I use my tape measure and measure a board 80 inches, or
whatever the metric equivalant is, makes no difference. The board
will be the same length as long as I measure it properly.
(and who can read a tape measure that accurately anyhow? To me,
anything smaller than 1/16 inch is not visible to the naked eye when
it comes to measuring a board. When it comes to machining a precison
piece of steel to fit a shaft or whatever, thats different, but that
has alwawys been done with precision machines anyhow.

A quart of milk measured in a accurate measuring cup will be the same
amount as the metric equivalant.

A 9/16 wrench will fit a 9/16 bolt the just as well as a 12 MM wrench
will fit a 12 MM bolt.

What you said makes no sense at all.

Mark

On 11 Mar 2006 21:42:09 -0800, "RicodJour"
wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Metric system is far more accurate.

Neither system is more accurate. The person or apparatus taking the
measurement is either more or less accurate.

One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to moon.

I thought we only had one moon. Wasn't it the Apollo mission that set
foot on the moon first?

R

If you bend over in front of a mirror, you'll see the OTHER moon LOL

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:57:42 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Most of the molding machines we buy that are metric use standard pipe sizes
of BPP sizes readily available. We make and export Insulating Concrete Forms
(ICF's as www.integraspec.com ) to Canada and sometimes Europe in standard
US sizes and they work with them OK. I doubt we will ever see a pure metric
society.



OK, here's a question to anyone that knows.
In countries that strictly use metrics, how big is a sheet of plywood?
Does it still measure 4x8 feet (but in metric)? Do they still space
studs 16 or 24 inches (but in metric)?
That's what I dont understand.
If not, what are the sizes they use?

Mark

On 11 Mar 2006 22:04:04 -0800, "RicodJour"
wrote:

marson wrote:
I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator.

Convenient that you chose an even number easily divided by two. How
about dividing 33 cm by three? That's just as equally arbitrary and
meaningless example.

Also, there is the
issue of precision. at various times, you might need precision within
a 32nd, 16th, 1/8th, and so on. with metric you have mm, cm, and
meters.

How is that a difference? Making a semi-unit conversion is certainly
not easier than moving a decimal point. To add this string of numbers
3/16" + 1' 5/8" + 37 yards 31/32" you have to find the greatest common
denominator and convert all of the others, so you have to doing
multiplication above and below the line, plus you have to convert yards
by that not very convenient 3. In metric, adding this string of
numbers 33 cm + 112mm + 42 m only requires you to add the requisite
number of zeroes to the greater-unit numbers.

You're also ignoring the obvious fact that you are _already_ using the
decimal system. Say you need precision greater than 32nds or 64ths,
what do you do? You move to the ******* metric system and start using
hundreths and thousandths. Now the two systems converge - where
greater accuracy and precision is required, they both resort to just
moving the decimal point. No conversions necessary.

R

You mentioned thousandths....
Is that thousandths of an inch or something else?

Lets say my sparkplug gap is 45 thou....
does that mean the gap is 45 over 1000 of an inch, or what?
I always thought those drill bits with solid numbers (like 30) rather
than fractions (like 1/8") were metric?

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 06:27:22 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:

PanHandler wrote:
"marson" wrote in message
oups.com...

I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator.


First of all, they would have specified that window opening as 84 cm not
83.625 cm, so halving it is pretty easy. The decimal system is a cinch to
work with. As far as precision is concerned, try microns or nanometers!


Hmmm,
Anyone has 8 fingers? 16 toes?. LOL!
Real logical numbering is binary.

You know the "Foot" began as exactly what it sounds like. Apparently
the guy that created the foot as a measurement had a 12 inch foot in
his shoes. This is true.

Now, lets guess that back then, the people were being attacked by wild
animals and had a lot of accidents with no medical care available.
That means that most people only had 8 fingers or toes. That must be
where they came up with the inch and divisions of 4. (just kiddin
about this part).

Tony Hwang wrote:

Metric system is far more accurate.

Since our current system and metric are both 100% accurate, I am not
sure I understand your statement.

Metric makes a lot more sense however.

```````````````````````````

The switch over, even in building materials can be far less disruptive
than suggested.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

wrote in message
...
With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...

Mark

I noticed that the National Electrical code is now referencing sizes in
metric as well as the conventional American system.

wrote in message
...
With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction.

I ran into the other side of that problem some time ago.

We bought a teak shelf system that was made in Denmark. I wanted to screw
the vertical standards into studs because this was a fairly heavy item even
before the shelves had stuff on them. The horizontal spacing of the
standards was determined by the shelf size as the shelves were keyed to the
standards.

The whole thing was metric. If I centered a standard on a stud, then the
standard on either side just barely lined up with a stud. The fourth
standard missed a stud completely and I had to resort to toggle bolts for
that one.

All was well until we moved. For three of the standards there were just
small holes where wood screws had gone in, but for the last standard I had
some ugly holes to patch. Since this was a living room location the patches
had to be well done and not slap dash.

Charlie

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:57:42 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Most of the molding machines we buy that are metric use standard pipe
sizes
of BPP sizes readily available. We make and export Insulating Concrete
Forms
(ICF's as www.integraspec.com ) to Canada and sometimes Europe in standard
US sizes and they work with them OK. I doubt we will ever see a pure
metric
society.



OK, here's a question to anyone that knows.
In countries that strictly use metrics, how big is a sheet of plywood?
Does it still measure 4x8 feet (but in metric)? Do they still space
studs 16 or 24 inches (but in metric)?
That's what I dont understand.
If not, what are the sizes they use?

Mark

I have asked several people from metric countries if eggs were sold by ten
or by dozens.

An interesting experiment. We leave it for the student . . .

Charlie

wrote in message
...
On 11 Mar 2006 21:36:15 -0800, "RicodJour"
wrote:

That's another idiotic thing about the measurement system we use. We
use 16d nails, the d stands for penny, and we ask for a 16 penny nail,
even though the letter designation is the wrong letter and the penny
hasn't had anything to do with the size of the nail for over a century.
A 16d nail is ~3.5" long, which is 8.89 centimeters, you'd just ask
for a 9 cm nail. Since the 16d nail doesn't relate to anything about
the nail _anyway_, they might keep the name and it wouldn't matter.
You'd still know it was roughly the right size.

Yes, i know it means penny, which you'd think would be "P" not "D",
but the guy was probably a real bad speller.


d is the symbol for penny. It started a long time ago in England. 16d nails
cost 16 cents per hundred. Smaller nails cost less per hundred so you get
8d, 6d, etc.

However, WHAT DOES penny have to do with a nail? Is that what they
used to charge per nail? (Which would be very expensive even today),
so I am going to take a wild guess that was the price per some
quantity of them.

It's funny, we learn all these things and never question them until
one day it slaps you in the face, like this just slapped me....

Mark

could you give an example of how metric is more accurate?
please show the math.


"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:JLNQf.135182$H%4.127323@pd7tw2no...
Toller wrote:
wrote in message
...

With the thread about metric conversion I got to thinking about
construction. Having dealt with cars that have both sae and metric
bolts is a pain in the butt, but I see a much bigger problem.
All standard construction in the US has studs spaced at 16 or 24
inches. A sheet of plywood, sheetrock, etc is usually 8 by 4 feet.
Roofing shingles, carpetting, linoleum, are all sold in yards, feet or
inches. Plumbing pipe is one half, three quarters one inch and so on.

We cant just change these things, and it would be totally rediculous
to have separate building materials for both inches and centimeters.
How can we ever change this? I surely dont want to buy a sheet of
plywood or sheetrock that wont fit across my 16" walls or floor
studs/joists. And if we keep the size the same, but change to metric
measurements, instead of saying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of plywood we
would have to say a long decimal equivalant with POINT something at
the end.

Something like carpeting or linoleum probably could be changed to the
nearest whole metric number because it does not rely on spaced studs
or joists, but then if a room was built to be 12 feet, and the
flooring ends up being a half inch less because of the conversion,
many people would be quite angry. So, they darn well better make it
larger, not smaller.....

Then comes the plumbing pipe. It MUST fit the old pipe. We can not
just change to the nearest metric number. And I'd sure hate to have
to go to the store and ask for a 3.856 by 5.891 CM electrical box,
when I can not ask for a 3x5 box.

Then comes dimentional lumber. It's bad enough we now have 2X4's in
buildings that are 2" X 4" 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" 1 1/2" X 3 1/2".
Lets not make this worse by adding yet another mismatched size,
because the number has to be metric.

I think building materials should just be left as they are. Even if
they were to leave the size as it is now, but change to metric
numbers, do you really thing many people would ask for that "3.856 by
5.891 CM electrical box"? I'd probably not even be able to remember
all those numbers.

About the only place in building where I could see the change not
being a real problem would be with liquid measurements. For example,
a gallon of paint or a quart of roofing cement.

And finally nails, screws, wire, etc.....
I am going to turn this into a question....
Is a #16 common nail 16 cm long? Is a #8 screw a metric number? (of
course the length is still in inches).
Is a #12 guage wire in metric, or what does that "12" mean?
I'm just guessing on this, I dont know metric well enough...


The rest of the world managed it.
Hi,
Metric system is far more accurate. One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to
moon. The sooner the better going to metric. Kids today learn metric
in schools.

in the case of an unmanned probe, Russia's Luna-2 hit the moon first in 1959


"RicodJour" wrote in message
ps.com...
Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Metric system is far more accurate.

Neither system is more accurate. The person or apparatus taking the
measurement is either more or less accurate.

One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to moon.

I thought we only had one moon. Wasn't it the Apollo mission that set
foot on the moon first?

R

Charlie Bress wrote:
wrote in message
...


snip

All was well until we moved. For three of the standards there were just
small holes where wood screws had gone in, but for the last standard I had
some ugly holes to patch. Since this was a living room location the patches
had to be well done and not slap dash.

Charlie

What am I missing? They were toggle bolts so why would you be left
with big holes?. All that should be there wouild be a hole the size of
the screw. I just remove the screw and let the toggle fall into the
wall.

Harry K

Harry K wrote:
Charlie Bress wrote:
wrote in message
...


snip

All was well until we moved. For three of the standards there were just
small holes where wood screws had gone in, but for the last standard I had
some ugly holes to patch. Since this was a living room location the patches
had to be well done and not slap dash.

Charlie

What am I missing? They were toggle bolts so why would you be left
with big holes?. All that should be there wouild be a hole the size of
the screw. I just remove the screw and let the toggle fall into the
wall.

Harry K

OOOPS! Correction: a hole large enough to pass the toggle - still not
a major problem.

Harry K

first of all, I'm talking carpentry. maybe you do, but i don't know
any carpenter out there measuring in 1/64ths, yards (except when
ordering carpet or concrete), miles, nanometers, or microns. my point
is that the english system works well for carpentry. no, i don't think
nasa should be using the english system.

I used the example of finding a midpoint because we do that a lot. the
house i'm building now has a lot of rough openings of 36 1/4. why the
quarter? no idea, but i doubt that if we were in the metric system,
manufacturers would mend their ways and start sizing things in even
numbers to make it a speck easier for us poor brain dead carpenters.

i didn't say that the english system was more precise. I meant that
the kind of precision that is required in building a house is easily
obtained with fractions. sometimes 1/32 precision is required,
sometimes 1/16, sometimes 1/8, etc. Of course i don't think that the
english system is more precise. there are more precision options.

i am in fact quite familiar with the metric system. I been to college,
took physics and chemistry. passed even. give me a metric tape and a
pile of metric materials, and i'd get used to it. probably find some
things easier, but i bet you there'd be other things that aren't
easier. so don't tell me that metric is always in all ways better. I
don't buy it.

In article .com, "marson" wrote:
I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator.

OK, so you measure that same window with a metric tape measure and discover
that it's 829 mm wide -- do you really think that a calculator is necessary to
find that the midpoint is 414.5 mm?

Try a more realistic example: What's half of, say, 33 5/16 inches? That's just
a hair over 846 mm. Which is easier to divide by two in your head?

What if you need to divide by three, or five?

Also, there is the
issue of precision. at various times, you might need precision within
a 32nd, 16th, 1/8th, and so on. with metric you have mm, cm, and
meters.

And your point is...?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , wrote:


Lets say my sparkplug gap is 45 thou....
does that mean the gap is 45 over 1000 of an inch, or what?

Yes: 0.045 inches.

I always thought those drill bits with solid numbers (like 30) rather
than fractions (like 1/8") were metric?

Nope. That's something altogether different. Google "numbered drill sizes",
for example
http://www.patchn.com/drillsizesnumbered.htm

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "John Grabowski" wrote:

I noticed that the National Electrical code is now referencing sizes in
metric as well as the conventional American system.

That isn't anything recent: I know that's in the 1993 Code, and I *think* it
was there as far back as '87.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"marson" wrote in message
oups.com...
I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator. Also, there is the
issue of precision. at various times, you might need precision within
a 32nd, 16th, 1/8th, and so on. with metric you have mm, cm, and
meters.

So find the center of an opening 31 5/8" in a flash. Or devide a space 20
feet, 2 5/8" into 3 even spaces.

Tony Hwang wrote:
Metric system is far more accurate. One reason Rusia beat U.S. going to
moon. The sooner the better going to metric. Kids today learn metric
in schools.


When did the commies land on the moon? I must have missed that little
piece of history!

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
ink.net...

"marson" wrote in message
oups.com...
I also don't think people realize that there are actually advantages to
the english system. for example, what if you had to find the center of
a window opening that was 32 5/8" you can come up with 16 5/16 in a
flash. try it in metric without a calculator. Also, there is the
issue of precision. at various times, you might need precision within
a 32nd, 16th, 1/8th, and so on. with metric you have mm, cm, and
meters.

So find the center of an opening 31 5/8" in a flash. Or devide a space 20
feet, 2 5/8" into 3 even spaces.


There are calculators available that do that.