Seems to me the carpenter on my kitchen project is underpaid by the
general contractor.

He told me he's getting $30 an hour, which seems absurd given how good
he is.

From what I can tell, the framing, drywall, cabinet hanging is all
first rate, and most importantly, he's able to react to problems and
tweak things so they look right in what is a pretty weird open plan
kitchen.

I don't know if the GC is paying him benefits or servicing the van.
Naturally he's covering workman's comp. I know the carpenter has his
own tools.

Anyway, in this blistering market for new construction and remodelling,
it doesn't compute, to me, that he's only pulling $30 an hour. I'm in
the DC area, which is pretty freaking hot. Seems like every mother in
the school parking lot is talking about their remodelling job.

Any thoughts?

ccsikyr wrote:
Seems to me the carpenter on my kitchen project is underpaid by the
general contractor.

He told me he's getting $30 an hour, which seems absurd given how good
he is.

Any thoughts?

Yeah I can hire 3 mexicans for that much.

You do need experience, but not much education.....

"ccsikyr" wrote in message
oups.com...
Seems to me the carpenter on my kitchen project is underpaid by the
general contractor.

He told me he's getting $30 an hour, which seems absurd given how good
he is.

From what I can tell, the framing, drywall, cabinet hanging is all
first rate, and most importantly, he's able to react to problems and
tweak things so they look right in what is a pretty weird open plan
kitchen.

I don't know if the GC is paying him benefits or servicing the van.
Naturally he's covering workman's comp. I know the carpenter has his
own tools.

Anyway, in this blistering market for new construction and remodelling,
it doesn't compute, to me, that he's only pulling $30 an hour. I'm in
the DC area, which is pretty freaking hot. Seems like every mother in
the school parking lot is talking about their remodelling job.

Thought number one- don't rock the boat with your contractor while the job
is underway. Thought number two- the going rate varies from area to area,
union vs. non-union, and any side deals the carpenter may have with the GC.
A little cash off the books is far from unknown, especially if the skilled
trades are working as subcontractors, a common arrangement. Thought three-
if the guy's work is that impressive, when the job is complete, write the GC
a letter telling him that, and don't be shy about referring your friends to
the company and/or that carpenter, if he also does side work. That is how
custom carpentry has always worked- word of mouth is the best advertising.
Once my father's company did custom houses for 2 or 3 of the local doctors,
within a year, he was doing 4 or 5 doctor houses a year. He had one older
guy too good to waste on framing- he moved him site to site for interior
finish and custom built-ins.

aem sends...

I was hoping to start a discussion of the market for carpenters, not a
discussion of what is and isn't my business, which I think is beyond
the scope of this group.

If you must know, I'm curious in general because I think labor markets
are fascinating and in particular because I care about the tradesmen
who work in my house.

I charge $550 per hour for general carpentry. When do you want me to
start the job for you?


On 20 Feb 2006 18:44:53 -0800, "ccsikyr" wrote:

Seems to me the carpenter on my kitchen project is underpaid by the
general contractor.

He told me he's getting $30 an hour, which seems absurd given how good
he is.

From what I can tell, the framing, drywall, cabinet hanging is all
first rate, and most importantly, he's able to react to problems and
tweak things so they look right in what is a pretty weird open plan
kitchen.

I don't know if the GC is paying him benefits or servicing the van.
Naturally he's covering workman's comp. I know the carpenter has his
own tools.

Anyway, in this blistering market for new construction and remodelling,
it doesn't compute, to me, that he's only pulling $30 an hour. I'm in
the DC area, which is pretty freaking hot. Seems like every mother in
the school parking lot is talking about their remodelling job.

Any thoughts?

wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006 21:01:34 -0800, "ccsikyr" wrote:

I was hoping to start a discussion of the market for carpenters, not a
discussion of what is and isn't my business, which I think is beyond
the scope of this group.

Bull. If that were the case, you would have asked about the going
rates for various trades. Not whether or not $30 an hour seemed
right for a skilled guy like the carpenter who's installing your
kitchen..


in particular because I care about the tradesmen
who work in my house.

And just how does your caring about people who work in your home
extend to 1) knowing how much he makes and 2) trying to determine
through a newsgroup (for god's sake) whether or not that is
appropriate? I think you've got too much time on your hands.

You seem a little touchy on this topic, Ken. Why?

The question comes up frequently - it's not like the OP is asking
something outrageous.

To the OP: the GC probably bills him out at a multiplier of at least
2x and probably 3x which sounds about right. Could he make more
working for himself? Probably. But then he'd have to deal with the
paperwork, insurance, etc., etc. He probably is happy to get his grand
or grand and a half a week and leave the headaches to someone else.

R

ccsikyr wrote:
Seems to me the carpenter on my kitchen project is underpaid by the
general contractor.

He told me he's getting $30 an hour, which seems absurd given how good
he is.

From what I can tell, the framing, drywall, cabinet hanging is all
first rate, and most importantly, he's able to react to problems and
tweak things so they look right in what is a pretty weird open plan
kitchen.

I don't know if the GC is paying him benefits or servicing the van.
Naturally he's covering workman's comp. I know the carpenter has his
own tools.

Anyway, in this blistering market for new construction and remodelling,
it doesn't compute, to me, that he's only pulling $30 an hour. I'm in
the DC area, which is pretty freaking hot. Seems like every mother in
the school parking lot is talking about their remodelling job.

Any thoughts?

Maybe it's the market rate. Your carpenter should know what the market
rate is & he can always go somewhere else if someone else offers more
money.

I'm sure the GC is charging you a lot more for his time than they are
paying him. It's the nature of the business.

"ccsikyr" wrote in message
ps.com...
I was hoping to start a discussion of the market for carpenters, not a
discussion of what is and isn't my business, which I think is beyond
the scope of this group.

That, sir, is an insult.


If you must know, I'm curious in general because I think labor markets
are fascinating and in particular because I care about the tradesmen
who work in my house.

Well, if it were that simple. The "tradesmen who work in my house" may tell
you that they are "only" getting $X per hour, and the greedy contractor is
charging $XX per hour! What they don't tell you, and what you don't
understand is that the contractor has spent the time to get the license, and
that ain't no small deal. It makes them legally responsible, and the one
you go after if things aren't done right. The contractor pays for bid
bonds, performance bonds, surety bonds, and other bonds to protect the
consumer. The contractor is forced to pay exorbidant rates by insurance
companies who, because of their extortion practices, would make good
loansharks. The contractor has to pay high worker compensation insurance to
make up for the 10:1 doofus:craftsman rate. (that may be 100:1 depending on
your location) If something's not right, do you call the contractor or the
craftsman? The contractor provides all the thousands of dollars of tools
and equipment used to work on your house, many of which times he could go
out and rent it and make you pay for it.

I could go on for about half an hour, but I HOPE you get the idea.

Next time you want something remodeled, throw the dice. Drive to the part
of your town where the day laborers are, and get a pickup full. Do all the
things that the contractor usually does. Buy materials. Get them
delivered. Go order stuff. Go follow up when stuff isn't delivered.
Handle a group of craftsmen/doofuses/winos to get a project done. And if
you have a problem, try to find one of them to come back and make it right.

You will soon understand what a contractor goes through every day of his
life, and the difference between a craftsman and a contractor. Many a
craftsman fails when going into business for themselves because they are
good at what they do, and no good at the business/management portion of the
operation. And they usually are VERY content to just fall back and work by
the hour and have their Tylenol bill go waaaaay down.

Then, you will be writing in asking why contractors don't make more.

Just some thoughts from a retired contractor. (steel erection, State of
Nevada)

Steve

You're chasing shadows, Ken. Let it go.

Thanks to RicodJour, Steve B and ameijers for the insight into the way
the contracting business is run. This was (and is) a simple honest
inquiry about what the going rate for carpenters is and what other
hidden costs there are that the contractor or carpenter might be
shouldering that I don't know about because I'm not in that business.
If you read anything else into it, you're beating on a straw man -- fun
and therapeutic, but looks a little silly to the people watching.

"ccsikyr" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks to RicodJour, Steve B and ameijers for the insight into the way
the contracting business is run. This was (and is) a simple honest
inquiry about what the going rate for carpenters is and what other
hidden costs there are that the contractor or carpenter might be
shouldering that I don't know about because I'm not in that business.
If you read anything else into it, you're beating on a straw man -- fun
and therapeutic, but looks a little silly to the people watching.


Thank you for speaking for all the people you consider to be unwashed
rabble, inferior to yourself, and unable to state their feelings and
opinions for themselves.

This makes me believe you are a troll. You state you don't know anything
about the business, yet pontificate about the way things SHOULD be.

You sound like a liberal to me.

PLONK

Steve

Straw man. Look it up.

Most of these guys arent paid just by the hour. Many of which are
done by getting a days pay.

I have seen carpenters get around 250 - 300 for the day.

Take that number (lets say 300) divide that between 8 hours
and you'll get 37.50 an hour.

The'll take that money for the day whether they work or not.
You generally dont want to pay these guys based on per hour
then you really have to be on their asses get get **** done.

If you're determined to see what you want to see, you'll always manage
to see it, Ken. You asked about my motivations, and I told you.
You're adding a lot of context from your own head to get where you want
to go -- that I'm one of the "PITA"s you deal with.

I'm sympathetic, actually. I know plenty of people who treat tradesmen
and GCs disrespectfully and I know that I don't.

You'll notice that in the other thread you're referencing, I asked here
*first* what a reasonable expectation about the cabinets was before
pushing back with the contractor because this group provides a wealth
of advice from experienced people.
What's more, when my fears turned out to be unfounded, I promptly
posted that right in the thread. See for yourself.

What's more, it's easy enough to see everything I've ever posted to
this group through groups.google.com, and you'll see the same
respectful attitude.

This is nothing more than an honest question about going wages for
carpenters, all carpenters. I've learned a lot about your side of the
business from other people's responses (including Steve B's). For what
it's worth, it wasn't my intention to demand the GC pay the carpenter
something different. I might tip the carpenter more at the end
depending on what I learn, and I'll certainly consider the matter when
recommending the GC to other people, but I accept the things I can't
change.

I talk to people regularly at the corporate level of the construction
supplies industry in my job and one thing I've been hearing for a
couple years now is that with housing starts shooting through the roof,
good carpenters are very hard to get. Naturally, I wonder why my
carpenter's wages aren't climbing.

Cheers,

CCS

Great information.

Thanks a million.