I'd like to record the voltage coming into my home/office telephone system.

I'm having an intermittent problem, where I get either no service or rapid
clicking. This has been going on for about 3 or 4 months, mostly in the
middle of the night. I've been able to catch it twice at the interface box,
and found no dial tone or voltage.

I've had Verizon here 3 times (daytime), and they tell me they can't find
any problem with their service, so the problem must be in my phone system.
The last time they came out, I already had the house wiring disconnected at
the interface, and their technician still insisted the problem must be in
the house, because he had good voltage coming into the box. They even billed
me $96 to come out.

I do HVAC work, and with the recent cold snap, people are trying to call,
but not getting through.

I'm looking for a DC voltage recorder. I'm not trying to be cheap, but I'll
probably only use it one time, so I'd prefer that it were as inexpensive as
possible. Does anyone know of a DC voltage recorder that I could use? TIA
Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
...
I'd like to record the voltage coming into my home/office telephone
system.

I'm having an intermittent problem, where I get either no service or rapid
clicking. This has been going on for about 3 or 4 months, mostly in the
middle of the night. I've been able to catch it twice at the interface
box,
and found no dial tone or voltage.

I've had Verizon here 3 times (daytime), and they tell me they can't find
any problem with their service, so the problem must be in my phone system.
The last time they came out, I already had the house wiring disconnected
at
the interface, and their technician still insisted the problem must be in
the house, because he had good voltage coming into the box. They even
billed
me $96 to come out.

I do HVAC work, and with the recent cold snap, people are trying to call,
but not getting through.

I'm looking for a DC voltage recorder. I'm not trying to be cheap, but
I'll
probably only use it one time, so I'd prefer that it were as inexpensive
as
possible. Does anyone know of a DC voltage recorder that I could use? TIA
Bob



Look for a MultiMeter (DMM) with a PC interface and software. That way, you
have a useful tool when you are finished with this need. I think Protek
makes a reasonably priced one and Tektronics makes a suitable one also but
the S/W and interface cable are extra.

Sounds like you have an intermittant open and you are trying to see if there
is any pattern to when it happens (like when the rats are hungry).

Buy the inside line service contract for your phone service, it is usually a
few bucks a month, then make the service call.

Wire a phone jack directly to the first point the wire enters your building
(usually on the outside of the building) and run a long cord inside. If it
is intermittant on this line it is verizon's responsibility. If it goes out
on your regular phone but not this directly wired one, it is in your
building. The point of entry is the property line WRT the wire.

I Just reread more carefilly

An intermittant short inside the house would clamp the voltage to 0V and
kill the dialtone. This would be undetectable with the house wiring
disconnected. You can connect a regular battery across your phone line and
monitor the voltage drop while moving about the house.

Look for a battery powered corded phone with a low battery, or a cheap
electronic phone.

Wire a phone jack directly to the first point the wire enters your
building

He likely already has that, built inside the Network Interface Device ("the
box").

I had a problem with SBC service at home several summers ago where the line
was going totally dead (no tone...no voltage) and they kept saying it was
my DSL service and the DSL people (Earthlink but physically it's Covad)
said no way can anything we do knock out dialtone. I don't know the
details of what the DSL people put at the C.O. (some sort of combiner
thing) or whether that can in fact fail in a way that takes out POTS but
eventually it was cured. But not before the SBC techs started getting
annoyed that I kept calling for service. But what was I supposed to do?
The phone line was dead...dead at the NID...so to me that means call the
phoneco and tell them to fix it. Then the line would work again and I'd
assumed it was because they'd fixed it in response to my calling but then
later a tech would come out and of course by then it was working.

Bob wrote:
I'd like to record the voltage coming into my home/office telephone system.

I'm having an intermittent problem, where I get either no service or rapid
clicking. This has been going on for about 3 or 4 months, mostly in the
middle of the night. I've been able to catch it twice at the interface box,
and found no dial tone or voltage.

I've had Verizon here 3 times (daytime), and they tell me they can't find
any problem with their service, so the problem must be in my phone system.
The last time they came out, I already had the house wiring disconnected at
the interface, and their technician still insisted the problem must be in
the house, because he had good voltage coming into the box. They even billed
me $96 to come out.

I do HVAC work, and with the recent cold snap, people are trying to call,
but not getting through.

I'm looking for a DC voltage recorder. I'm not trying to be cheap, but I'll
probably only use it one time, so I'd prefer that it were as inexpensive as
possible. Does anyone know of a DC voltage recorder that I could use? TIA
Bob



As PipeDown said, a digital meter with RS322 port will do it
inexpensively. They come with Windows logging software
that will plot the results for you. I've used these in the
past with great results.

There are a few examples on eBay:
http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/Adv...?sofindtype=13

Item #
7523541926
7571189952
7571767028


Jim

Thanks to everyone for your help. When this first started, I unplugged the
jack from the house/office lines at the interface and ran a phone wire out
my window to the interface. I was quick enough to catch it 2 times, so I'm
almost positive the problem is incoming voltage.
That's not to say there couldn't be another problem, but I've checked every
inch of inside wiring, and every connection, and disconnected some phones.
It's just my wife and me, and this happens mostly in the middle of the
night.
I don't have a problem with $200 or $300 if I knew I'd use it again, but in
25 years of HVAC service, I've never needed one before. I already have a UEI
DL250, which does everything I need, so I'll probably get the Mastech
MAS-345 on eBay for $41. Thanks Jim.
I'm not too familiar with DC voltage. Can I connect the test leads in
parallel with the phone lines, while they are still connected, or do I have
to disconnect the phones completely while the recording is being done? TIA
Bob

Bob wrote:SNIP
I'm not too familiar with DC voltage. Can I connect the test leads in
parallel with the phone lines, while they are still connected, or do I have
to disconnect the phones completely while the recording is being done? TIA
Bob

Extend the test leads to the terminals at the outside
"jack" or interface box. But, also disconnect the
wires which feed into the house from the terminal.
That way *only* distrurbances on the utility side
will affect the readings.

Jim

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:55:46 GMT, Steve Kraus
wrote:

Wire a phone jack directly to the first point the wire enters your
building

He likely already has that, built inside the Network Interface Device ("the
box").

I had a problem with SBC service at home several summers ago where the line
was going totally dead (no tone...no voltage) and they kept saying it was
my DSL service and the DSL people (Earthlink but physically it's Covad)
said no way can anything we do knock out dialtone. I don't know the
details of what the DSL people put at the C.O. (some sort of combiner
thing) or whether that can in fact fail in a way that takes out POTS but
eventually it was cured. But not before the SBC techs started getting
annoyed that I kept calling for service. But what was I supposed to do?
The phone line was dead...dead at the NID...so to me that means call the
phoneco and tell them to fix it. Then the line would work again and I'd
assumed it was because they'd fixed it in response to my calling but then
later a tech would come out and of course by then it was working.

istm iirc that if one shorts the red and the green for a little while,
it's possible to "blow a fuse" at the central office. I mean, I don't
know if I blew a fuse or something else, but the line would be almost
dead. No dial tone, just a little faint noise.

I would wait maybe 10 minutes and it would be good again.

How this might fit in to any of your problems, I can't say.

IIRC, I did this first with pay phones, but don't tell anyone.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 01:58:21 GMT, Speedy Jim wrote:

Bob wrote:SNIP
I'm not too familiar with DC voltage. Can I connect the test leads in
parallel with the phone lines, while they are still connected, or do I have
to disconnect the phones completely while the recording is being done? TIA
Bob

Extend the test leads to the terminals at the outside
"jack" or interface box. But, also disconnect the
wires which feed into the house from the terminal.
That way *only* distrurbances on the utility side
will affect the readings.

I guess since this only happens during the middle of the night, this
won't inconvenience him, but during the day, I think he could plug in
one telephone. If he logs the time he plugs and unplugs, it will even
show that his telephone doesn't cause a voltage change.

In fact, he could plug in his whole system during the day and if that
does't cause a voltage change, that would let it off the hook, except
only for causing voltage changes. I lost track. Do we know yet that
the phone company will accept that it is the voltage change/spike that
causes the problem?

Jim


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

These meters look great, I wish I could think of a good reason to buy
one.

I do have a meter with a temperature probe. At the end it has 1mm of
metal showing, a one inch piece of blue heatshrink tubing, and the
wire is insulated with some woven almost smooth, almost shiny white
stuff with a blue line spiraling down the wire.

Do you think this probe is waterproof?

I wanted to use it but wasn't sure and ended up using a meat
thermometer in the 190 degree water. That worked this time, but the
meter has a much broader range and if I could use it in liquids, that
would be great.

The manual says nothing about liquids or not.


On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:26:05 GMT, Speedy Jim wrote:


As PipeDown said, a digital meter with RS322 port will do it
inexpensively. They come with Windows logging software
that will plot the results for you. I've used these in the
past with great results.

There are a few examples on eBay:
http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/Adv...?sofindtype=13

Item #
7523541926
7571189952
7571767028


Jim


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

mm wrote:
These meters look great, I wish I could think of a good reason to buy
one.

I do have a meter with a temperature probe. At the end it has 1mm of
metal showing, a one inch piece of blue heatshrink tubing, and the
wire is insulated with some woven almost smooth, almost shiny white
stuff with a blue line spiraling down the wire.

Do you think this probe is waterproof?

I wanted to use it but wasn't sure and ended up using a meat
thermometer in the 190 degree water. That worked this time, but the
meter has a much broader range and if I could use it in liquids, that
would be great.

The manual says nothing about liquids or not.


I should think you could use it. The probes in the meters listed
are thermocouple type and even if water seeped into the probe sheath
the reading wouldn't be greatly affected.
Jim


On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:26:05 GMT, Speedy Jim wrote:



As PipeDown said, a digital meter with RS322 port will do it
inexpensively. They come with Windows logging software
that will plot the results for you. I've used these in the
past with great results.

There are a few examples on eBay:
http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/Adv...?sofindtype=13

Item #
7523541926
7571189952
7571767028


Jim



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Just a thought, does this line have any
kind of remote meter reading associated
with it? This could possibly be opening
the line depending on how it is
implemented.

mm wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:55:46 GMT, Steve Kraus
wrote:


Wire a phone jack directly to the first point the wire enters your
building

He likely already has that, built inside the Network Interface Device ("the
box").

I had a problem with SBC service at home several summers ago where the line
was going totally dead (no tone...no voltage) and they kept saying it was
my DSL service and the DSL people (Earthlink but physically it's Covad)
said no way can anything we do knock out dialtone. I don't know the
details of what the DSL people put at the C.O. (some sort of combiner
thing) or whether that can in fact fail in a way that takes out POTS but
eventually it was cured. But not before the SBC techs started getting
annoyed that I kept calling for service. But what was I supposed to do?
The phone line was dead...dead at the NID...so to me that means call the
phoneco and tell them to fix it. Then the line would work again and I'd
assumed it was because they'd fixed it in response to my calling but then
later a tech would come out and of course by then it was working.


istm iirc that if one shorts the red and the green for a little while,
it's possible to "blow a fuse" at the central office. I mean, I don't
know if I blew a fuse or something else, but the line would be almost
dead. No dial tone, just a little faint noise.

I would wait maybe 10 minutes and it would be good again.

How this might fit in to any of your problems, I can't say.

IIRC, I did this first with pay phones, but don't tell anyone.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Bob,

Are you sure that you don't have an alarm panel tied into your phone line?
Typically, there should be a series jack installed that has dialtone from
the NID coming into it on a pair of wires (Red / Green or possibly White /
Blue) on terminals 4 & 5 and another pair (Yellow / Black or White / Orange)
on terminals 1 & 8 going back out to the "house" wiring. There are a pair of
shorting bars inside the jack that connect both pairs together when there is
no plug inserted into it, thus allowing your phones to work. When the plug
from an alarm panel is plugged into the jack, the shorting bars are lifted
and dialtone now goes through the panel's internal dialer, which, when
tripped, will turn off the "house" side of the jack, thereby keeping the
phone line free to dial out to a central monitoring station, so that either
burglar or fire codes may be sent and the appropriate responders notified.
If the dialer is trying to call out, it will most definitely shut off
dialtone to the house. The clicking that you hear could possibly just be
bleed over from the adjacent pair of wires depending upon the quality or
lack thereof of the wire being used.

If you do have one of these installed, you may have to have your local Telco
check out the jack or your alarm company check out the panel. Keep in mind
that if you unplug the alarm panel from the jack you WILL NOT be protected.
Be sure to PLUG IT BACK IN for security reasons.

Most people take their alarm panels for granted and often forget that they
are tied into their phone line.

Hope this helps. Let us know how you make out.

Peter.

"Bob" wrote in message
...
I'd like to record the voltage coming into my home/office telephone
system.

I'm having an intermittent problem, where I get either no service or rapid
clicking. This has been going on for about 3 or 4 months, mostly in the
middle of the night. I've been able to catch it twice at the interface
box,
and found no dial tone or voltage.

I've had Verizon here 3 times (daytime), and they tell me they can't find
any problem with their service, so the problem must be in my phone system.
The last time they came out, I already had the house wiring disconnected
at
the interface, and their technician still insisted the problem must be in
the house, because he had good voltage coming into the box. They even
billed
me $96 to come out.

I do HVAC work, and with the recent cold snap, people are trying to call,
but not getting through.

I'm looking for a DC voltage recorder. I'm not trying to be cheap, but
I'll
probably only use it one time, so I'd prefer that it were as inexpensive
as
possible. Does anyone know of a DC voltage recorder that I could use? TIA
Bob

In article ,
mm wrote:

istm iirc that if one shorts the red and the green for a little while,
it's possible to "blow a fuse" at the central office. I mean, I don't
know if I blew a fuse or something else, but the line would be almost
dead. No dial tone, just a little faint noise.

No, you don't blow a fuse. The CO switch detects excess current
flowing and takes the line out of service. It checks it every few
seconds, and when it finds that you are back to normal (i.e. open) the
switch restores you to normal service. All automagic.

--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:27:26 GMT, Speedy Jim wrote:

mm wrote:
These meters look great, I wish I could think of a good reason to buy
one.

I do have a meter with a temperature probe. At the end it has 1mm of
metal showing, a one inch piece of blue heatshrink tubing, and the
wire is insulated with some woven almost smooth, almost shiny white
stuff with a blue line spiraling down the wire.

Do you think this probe is waterproof?

I wanted to use it but wasn't sure and ended up using a meat
thermometer in the 190 degree water. That worked this time, but the
meter has a much broader range and if I could use it in liquids, that
would be great.

The manual says nothing about liquids or not.


I should think you could use it. The probes in the meters listed
are thermocouple type and even if water seeped into the probe sheath
the reading wouldn't be greatly affected.

Thanks. I"ll try it. come to think, if it's not hot liquid, it would
have to be fire! I don't think I have anything else that would be
hotter than say, 120 degrees.

You wouldn't use it in fire, would you? I hadn't even thought of that
before.

Jim


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Rich Greenberg wrote:
In article ,
mm wrote:


istm iirc that if one shorts the red and the green for a little while,
it's possible to "blow a fuse" at the central office. I mean, I don't
know if I blew a fuse or something else, but the line would be almost
dead. No dial tone, just a little faint noise.


No, you don't blow a fuse. The CO switch detects excess current
flowing and takes the line out of service. It checks it every few
seconds, and when it finds that you are back to normal (i.e. open) the
switch restores you to normal service. All automagic.


the ole false cross and grounds "perm". when a phone is
left off hook, you will typically get dial tone, then a
recording "to make a call", then the "howler", then the
telephone office will pull the line from the equipment
PERManently until the phone gets put back on hook. All
these steps are based on a ~25 second "office" clock. dial
tone lasts 25 sec, the howler last 25 sec, the perm is
checked every 25 sec to see if the phone was put back on
hook. If it was, the line is put back on the equipment.

A phone isn't the only thing that can look like a phone
off-hook, shorted phones, wet cable, or either wire shorted
to ground.

to the op, check the alarm system! also, most phone offices
do an autotest during the night time (some during the day
too). there is no real schedule to this testing, but is
based more on when the equipment gets done with all the
other lines and gets back to your line again. this test
usually lasts about 10 seconds, your line (two wires) is
disconnected from the regular equipment, then tested for
leakage to each other and to ground and then tested with
about 100v DC for breakdown. This lets them find lines that
are developing problems and fix cable faults before they
take down a neighborhood. If the line is in use, or you
pick up the phone, the test is dumped immediately and line
returned to the equipment, you'll never know the test was
happening. Some line status lamps (old att centrex line
displays) will blink on a few times while this test is in
progress. I used to watch our four lines do this dance all
night long ;-)

also remember, your open circuit could just as well be a
short (both will be 0 volts). Watch your line voltage when
you're on the phone and the "clicking" occurs. An analog
meter works best, is the reading bouncing all over the
place? And does it continue if you hang up the phone
immediately? That's a sign of wet cable between you and the
office. Is your protector (network interface) carbon blocks
or gas tubes? carbons are notorious for noise and shorts.

Intermittants are are always a pain, good luck.

-larry / dallas

Can that test take place if there is DSL without disrupting it?

Steve Kraus wrote:
Can that test take place if there is DSL without disrupting it?

yes and no

yes, if your dsl equipped line is metallic (pair of copper
wires) the whole way from your house to the telephone
office. the dsl signal is inserted at the phone office
between the regular line equipment (where the test happens)
and the "frame" where your line leaves the office. the dsl
insertion is just sets of coils in series with your pair of
wires and "looks" like a few "extra" feet of wire that is
ignored in the test. it helps if you think of dsl as just a
radio signal that rides along your copper wire. the phone
service is dc and ac up to about 4 kHz (audio), and the dsl
service is anything higher, limited to length and how crappy
the wire is to radio waves. neither service knows the other
is there, unless you forget the filters on the phones.
Phones look like short circuits to radio waves -by design
-especially for folks with phone lines near a radio or tv
transmitter ;-)

no, if your dsl equipped phone service is feed from a hut or
rt (aka dslam, remote terminal, pair gain, pedestal) in your
neighborhood. The hut usually has fiber optic connections
back to the main phone office. In the hut, phone service
starts from a "channel bank", that can't do tests, followed
by the dsl insertion, then on to your house. The phone
company can still test your line, but there might only be
one "tester" in each hut, which can disconnect one line
from the hut at a time to run the line test. All the ones
I've seen are used as needed from a test center by a tech to
work a repair order. Your line is out of service (dsl too)
while the tech runs tests on your line.

Some companies might have automated testing in huts, but it
wouldn't be user friendly like the main office test. btw -
office based automated line testing can be programmed off.
But it's best left on since it is transparent to the user,
and does speed up service restores on cable cuts. It alarms
pretty fast when it gets a bunch of "opens" on a cable in a
short period of time.

here, the borg has put huts everywhere, and almost all new
dsl is from huts, some legacy dsl is still copper to the
office. and overground tel(until the trencher gets by in a
few months to dig in the cable) is now doing fios, fiber
optic cable to the customer backdoor.

-larry / dallas

if you want the long version of how dsl works, google "adsl
carrier frequency"

Steve Kraus wrote:

Can that test take place if there is DSL without disrupting it?

i missed the target -

in the case of copper all the way, the dsl connection would
remain up during the test, just like it does while you're on
the phone and even while ringing. And ringing is a nasty 90
(125 v peak) volts ac rms at 20 Hz superimposed on -50 volts
dc. There might be some errors introduced, which would be
resent data. I've never seen my dsl modem retrain on
ringing. You can look at the dsl modem diagnostics and see
how many send and receive errors are counted.

I just did a test on my line: ringing, and pulse dialing
caused no errors.

i'm running at:
Noise Margin: 22.0 dB (Downstream), 22.0 db (Upstream)
Attenuation: 11.0 dB (Downstream), 7.0 db (Upstream)

Data Errors Statistics Collected for 4:17:03
ATM Cell Header Errors:0
ATM Loss of Cell Delineation:0
DSL Link Retrains:0
DSL Training Errors:0
DSL Training Timeouts:0
DSL Loss of Framing Failures:0
DSL Loss of Signal Failures:0
DSL Loss of Power Failures:0
DSL Loss of Margin Failures:0
DSL Cumulative Errored Seconds:0
DSL Severely Errored Seconds:0
DSL Corrected Blocks:0
DSL Uncorrected Blocks:0
ISP Connection Establishment:1