Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed
that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H



On the new outlets you will need to break off the tab that is between the
screws on the hot side. Use pliers to bend it back and forth until it breaks
off. This will separate the 2 hots. The neutral (white) is most likely
shared between the 2 hots so don't break the tab that side unless the old
one was like that (would have had 2 white wires if so). Look carefully at
the old outlet and do the new one just like the old outlet was done.
Kevin

Peter H wrote:
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the
newer, square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the
wiring. The home is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets. These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I
expected to find them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise
they were on a double breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I
noticed that it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white
line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on
different circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need
something different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be
pushing things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on
the best way to proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H

Often each outlet is attached to TWO 20 AMP circuit breakers This is
US I don't know what is usual up there. When you get done, it would be nice
to add GFI protection as well if it is not there.

The outlets have a ear that bridges the gap between the upper and lower
outlets, you need to remove all of these. If you are not sure, try getting a
good book at the DIY store, and if you are still unsure get a pro.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the
newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring.
The home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to
find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a
double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I
noticed that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding
them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on
different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be
pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best
way to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H


Take a look at the outlets-there's a little tab you break off on the
hot (brass screw) side to separate the two sockets...

I must be missing something: the slimeline square outlets have the same
side tabs to break off so you can split the receptacle into 2 circuits. Why
not wire it exactly as the old one?

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed
that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed
that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way to
proceed would be appreciated.

Hopefully a Canadian will answer you.
You have a multiwire circuit, which are (as I understand it) routine in
Canada.
In the US if you work on a circuit it must be brought up to current code,
and current code requires GFCI on kitchen circuits. GFCI is a problem on
multiwire circuits. My suggestion is to go to a decent store and ask them
how to handle it,

A red and black wire on the same outlet does not necessarily mean they are
on two separate circuits, possibly the red of the three wire is feeding that
outlet and the black continues that circuit to another outlet. He needs to
KNOW what he's got and doing before proceeding



"Kevin Ricks" wrote in message
t...

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the
newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The
home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed
that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way
to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H



On the new outlets you will need to break off the tab that is between the
screws on the hot side. Use pliers to bend it back and forth until it
breaks off. This will separate the 2 hots. The neutral (white) is most
likely shared between the 2 hots so don't break the tab that side unless
the old one was like that (would have had 2 white wires if so). Look
carefully at the old outlet and do the new one just like the old outlet
was done.
Kevin

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
A red and black wire on the same outlet does not necessarily mean
they are
on two separate circuits, possibly the red of the three wire is
feeding that
outlet and the black continues that circuit to another outlet. He
needs to
KNOW what he's got and doing before proceeding


True, but since he's in in Canada (I believe Chris Lewis says it's a
CEC requirement) and they're on a double pole breaker it would appear
to be the case.

No mention of GFCI, so as the other poster pointed out, just look at
the outlet he's replacing....

"Rick" wrote in message
news

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to
the
newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring.
The home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for
the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected
to
find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a
double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I
noticed that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding
them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on
different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need
something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be
pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the
best
way to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H


Take a look at the outlets-there's a little tab you break off on the
hot (brass screw) side to separate the two sockets...

And maybe the neutrals : )

Split circuits are standard under Ontario wiring code. It also (now, not
when this house was built) requires GFI breakers if the outlets are within a
metre of the sink. You will need a 240 volt GFI to do it. The code also
allows 20 amp circuits in the kitchen but that would require re-wiring it. I
would just change out the recepticals, breaking off the tab between the red
and black wire, exactly the same as the ones you are replacing.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the
newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The
home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to
find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a
double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed
that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on
different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way
to
proceed would be appreciated.

Hopefully a Canadian will answer you.
You have a multiwire circuit, which are (as I understand it) routine in
Canada.
In the US if you work on a circuit it must be brought up to current code,
and current code requires GFCI on kitchen circuits. GFCI is a problem on
multiwire circuits. My suggestion is to go to a decent store and ask them
how to handle it,

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
A red and black wire on the same outlet does not necessarily mean they are
on two separate circuits, possibly the red of the three wire is feeding
that outlet and the black continues that circuit to another outlet. He
needs to KNOW what he's got and doing before proceeding



"Kevin Ricks" wrote in message
t...

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the
newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The
home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to
find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a
double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed
that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on
different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way
to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H



On the new outlets you will need to break off the tab that is between the
screws on the hot side. Use pliers to bend it back and forth until it
breaks off. This will separate the 2 hots. The neutral (white) is most
likely shared between the 2 hots so don't break the tab that side unless
the old one was like that (would have had 2 white wires if so). Look
carefully at the old outlet and do the new one just like the old outlet
was done.
Kevin


I agree with RBM, if you are asking these types of questions, you should
probably not be doing the work. Don't take this as a slam, but as a thought!

EXT wrote:
Split circuits are standard under Ontario wiring code. It also (now,
not when this house was built) requires GFI breakers if the outlets
are within a metre of the sink. You will need a 240 volt GFI to do
it. The code also allows 20 amp circuits in the kitchen but that
would require re-wiring it.

This is an important point. Please heed this advice. When I made a
note about 20 amp circuits I did not caution sufficiently about the need to
make sure the wiring was the correct size to support 20 amps.

I would just change out the recepticals,
breaking off the tab between the red and black wire, exactly the same
as the ones you are replacing.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Peter H" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Group:

I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to
the newer, square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out
the wiring. The home is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the
outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected
to find them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they
were on a double breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I
noticed that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding
them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on
different circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll
need something different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be
pushing things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on
the best way to proceed would be appreciated.

Hopefully a Canadian will answer you.
You have a multiwire circuit, which are (as I understand it) routine
in Canada.
In the US if you work on a circuit it must be brought up to current
code, and current code requires GFCI on kitchen circuits. GFCI is a
problem on multiwire circuits. My suggestion is to go to a decent
store and ask them how to handle it,

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

John F. wrote:
I must be missing something: the slimeline square outlets have the
same side tabs to break off so you can split the receptacle into 2
circuits. Why not wire it exactly as the old one?


I don't think you are missing anything. It appeared to me that the OP
was missing this fact and is not aware that the tabs are there.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

First, kudos for stopping and asking questions. It is
possible to miswire this setup so that a fire happens many
years or decades later when heavy appliance load is applied.

Second, others have properly cautioned you about the unique
(and legal) nature of those circuits. Understand the concept
- AND confirm what you have wired with a meter. Others have
posted important facts. Make sure you comprehend what every
posted has warned of. IOW, with those tabs removed, each half
of receptacle should measure 120 volts between flat prongs -
AND 240 volts between small prongs on both halves. If not,
then a potential 'fire inside the walls' condition exists.

Reason for those meter readings should make it obvious why
this caution is necessary. Meter should confirm everything
properly wired when done. This is an essential human safety
issue. But again, kudos for asking so that someone is not
killed.

BTW, normally kitchen upgrades require GFCIs. In your case,
that means the double breaker would need be a GFCI type. And
you thought this would be easy. We call this ... fun.

Peter H wrote:
I offered to update my g/friend's kitchen electrical outlets to the newer,
square white ones, but am having trouble figuring out the wiring. The home
is a 1985 vintage greater Toronto Area home.

The problems started when I was trying to find the breakers for the outlets.
These are just your standard wall, backsplash outlets. I expected to find
them on a single 15-amp breaker, but to my surprise they were on a double
breaker, like a heavy-duty appliance.

When I pulled one of the outlets off the wall to have a look I noticed that
it was grounded, but also had a red, black and white line feeding them.

I'm assuming that this means the upper and lower sockets are on different
circuits and also assuming that this means that I'll need something
different than your standard outlet.

The relationship with the g/f's pretty solid, but I think I'd be pushing
things a bit if I burnt her place down. Any suggestions on the best way to
proceed would be appreciated.

tia

Peter H

According to RBM rbm2(remove :
A red and black wire on the same outlet does not necessarily mean they are
on two separate circuits, possibly the red of the three wire is feeding that
outlet and the black continues that circuit to another outlet. He needs to
KNOW what he's got and doing before proceeding

To-code kitchen counter outlets in Canada, at until recently, HAVE
to be split duplex (two circuits). So, it's virtually guaranteed
that the tab has to be broken off and wired identically.

But, you're right, he has to check the existing outlets and
replace them _identically_.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Joseph Meehan :

The outlets have a ear that bridges the gap between the upper and lower
outlets, you need to remove all of these. If you are not sure, try getting a
good book at the DIY store, and if you are still unsure get a pro.

You break off only _one_ of the ears, on the hot side. The neutral is
shared.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to w_tom :
BTW, normally kitchen upgrades require GFCIs. In your case,
that means the double breaker would need be a GFCI type. And
you thought this would be easy. We call this ... fun.

Canada is transitioning from the traditional split-receptacle
15A non-GFCI'd kitchen counter outlets, to counter outlets that
must be GFCI'd (last code revision). In order to ease the
transition, we're only now permitting 20A GFCI receptacles on
single circuits. Kitchen counter outlets _only_ IIRC. 20A
circuits are still not permitted for general outlet circuits
elsewhere.

Thus either a double GFCI breaker supplying a split-receptacle,
or a GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit meets code.

When simply replacing existing compliant receptacles, insisting on
upgrading to GFCI is up to the inspector.

I highly doubt an inspector would require GFCI while simply
replacing the receptacle, because any installation older than
a year or two will be split dual, and double GFCIs are expensive,
and this is no worse than the previous situation.

But if the person was doing anything more substantial (moving,
installing new outlets), they'd definately insist on GFCI.

Switching the circuits over to 20A so GFCI outlets can
be used would require the wire be replaced.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Joseph Meehan :

The outlets have a ear that bridges the gap between the upper
and lower outlets, you need to remove all of these. If you are not
sure, try getting a good book at the DIY store, and if you are still
unsure get a pro.

You break off only _one_ of the ears, on the hot side. The neutral is
shared.

Hopefully.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:05:36 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


Hopefully a Canadian will answer you.
You have a multiwire circuit, which are (as I understand it) routine in
Canada.
In the US if you work on a circuit it must be brought up to current code,
and current code requires GFCI on kitchen circuits. GFCI is a problem on
multiwire circuits. My suggestion is to go to a decent store and ask them
how to handle it,


With expensive GFCI breakers, and leave the outlets alone.

Previously posted were some meter readings that should be
taken. 240 volts should exist between the two smaller prongs
from each half of outlet. If that 240 volts does not exist,
then a 'fire in the wall' problem exists. It is probably OK.
But since you made a change, you DO want to verify the problem
does not exist. And not just for safety reasons. You do want
her to still like you?

GFCI was just some secondary consideration. You *want* to
verify that voltage. That voltage measurement was not an
option. If is most likely alright. But the down side is too
negative. Confirm that voltage.

Peter H wrote:
Thanks to all who replied. I had a good look at the existing set-up
and just as suggested the connecting link on one side of the outlet
was broken off. I just did the same on the new receptacle and
installed them in the same fashion. They are working fine.

I'm not going to bother w/ the gfi breakers at this point.

Peter H

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to w_tom :
BTW, normally kitchen upgrades require GFCIs. In your case,
that means the double breaker would need be a GFCI type. And
you thought this would be easy. We call this ... fun.

Canada is transitioning from the traditional split-receptacle
15A non-GFCI'd kitchen counter outlets, to counter outlets that
must be GFCI'd (last code revision). In order to ease the
transition, we're only now permitting 20A GFCI receptacles on
single circuits. Kitchen counter outlets _only_ IIRC. 20A
circuits are still not permitted for general outlet circuits
elsewhere.

Thus either a double GFCI breaker supplying a split-receptacle,
or a GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit meets code.

When simply replacing existing compliant receptacles, insisting on
upgrading to GFCI is up to the inspector.

I highly doubt an inspector would require GFCI while simply
replacing the receptacle, because any installation older than
a year or two will be split dual, and double GFCIs are expensive,
and this is no worse than the previous situation.

But if the person was doing anything more substantial (moving,
installing new outlets), they'd definately insist on GFCI.

Switching the circuits over to 20A so GFCI outlets can
be used would require the wire be replaced.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Thanks to all who replied. I had a good look at the existing set-up and just
as suggested the connecting link on one side of the outlet was broken off. I
just did the same on the new receptacle and installed them in the same
fashion. They are working fine.

I'm not going to bother w/ the gfi breakers at this point.

Peter H

Thanks for the post Tom. I'll check that voltage.

Peter H

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Previously posted were some meter readings that should be
taken. 240 volts should exist between the two smaller prongs
from each half of outlet. If that 240 volts does not exist,
then a 'fire in the wall' problem exists. It is probably OK.
But since you made a change, you DO want to verify the problem
does not exist. And not just for safety reasons. You do want
her to still like you?

GFCI was just some secondary consideration. You *want* to
verify that voltage. That voltage measurement was not an
option. If is most likely alright. But the down side is too
negative. Confirm that voltage.

Peter H wrote:
Thanks to all who replied. I had a good look at the existing set-up
and just as suggested the connecting link on one side of the outlet
was broken off. I just did the same on the new receptacle and
installed them in the same fashion. They are working fine.

I'm not going to bother w/ the gfi breakers at this point.

Peter H