I need to install parallel switches to a couple of lights. And so you
don't think I mean a common 3-way switch, I want this behavior:

Both on: lights on
A on: lights on
B on: lights on
Both off: lights off

This is just (A OR B) logic.

This application is actually for a horse stall, where one switch is a
timer and the other is for manual use (there is actually a third switch
in series with the timer, to allow turning off the timer as well).

I'll try to explain my current setup (I've already tried this circuit).
I'll ignore grounds, but they are connected at each location properly.

1. I have 12/2 coming from the breaker box
2. The hot wire split and is connected to both switches
3. Each switch comes out as separate hot wires (I used red on the main
and black on the timer switch)
4. The neutral, red, black and ground wires are run to an outlet near
the lights
5. The neutral and black wires are fed to the outlet
6. The neutral and red are run to the first light box
7. The timer is installed and plugged into the outlet
8. 12/2 is terminated with a standard plug/ground and plugged into the
timer
9. The black from this (the timer) is connected to the red from the
first switch and then to the first light, and then a black wire runs to
the second light
10. The neutral from the timer and the breaker are connected and then
are connected to the first light, plus it is run to the second light
11. The second light is connected to the hot and neutral

I might try some ascii art and reply to this, but for now, that will
have to do.

So my main switch seems to work. However, if my timer and lights are
plugged in (timer switch still off), my main switch trips the GFCI
outlet, but the lights still come on. Of course, this means the timer
is no longer running, and turning off the main switch causes the lights
to go out.

I have a feeling this would have worked with a DC circuit, hopefully
somebody can help!

Adam

In article .com,
Adam wrote:
I need to install parallel switches to a couple of lights. And so you
don't think I mean a common 3-way switch, I want this behavior:

Both on: lights on
A on: lights on
B on: lights on
Both off: lights off

This is just (A OR B) logic.

I can't quite visualize your description. Here is my attempt to draw
it: (fixed font suggested)


------------------------------------------
| |
X switch X timer
Hot (black) | | to
----------------------------------X timer defeat load

Neutral (white)
-------------------------------------------------------

Ground (green)
-------------------------------------------------------

Is this what you want?

--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

On 26 Nov 2005 13:02:12 -0800, Adam wrote:

I need to install parallel switches to a couple of lights. And so you
don't think I mean a common 3-way switch, I want this behavior:

Both on: lights on
A on: lights on
B on: lights on
Both off: lights off

Should work just fine w/AC.

Not sure I understand your description of the setup you have so I'm hesitant
to offer suggestions as far as changes. For my attic fan, I use a photocell
in place of the timer you're using and the fan is 2 speed, but otherwise the
wiring should be quite similar. It's not on a GFCI circuit, but that
shouldn't be a problem.

Would be glad to provide a drawing of my setup if you send email directly
(this is a text only group) - use address in sig after fixing it.

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


Please send all email as text - HTML is too hard to decipher as text.

Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.aldes-us.com/Wiring%20Dia...wtchLeg....PDF



Adam wrote:
I need to install parallel switches to a couple of lights. And so you
don't think I mean a common 3-way switch, I want this behavior:

Both on: lights on
A on: lights on
B on: lights on
Both off: lights off

This is just (A OR B) logic.

This application is actually for a horse stall, where one switch is a
timer and the other is for manual use (there is actually a third switch
in series with the timer, to allow turning off the timer as well).

I'll try to explain my current setup (I've already tried this circuit).
I'll ignore grounds, but they are connected at each location properly.

1. I have 12/2 coming from the breaker box
2. The hot wire split and is connected to both switches
3. Each switch comes out as separate hot wires (I used red on the main
and black on the timer switch)
4. The neutral, red, black and ground wires are run to an outlet near
the lights
5. The neutral and black wires are fed to the outlet
6. The neutral and red are run to the first light box
7. The timer is installed and plugged into the outlet
8. 12/2 is terminated with a standard plug/ground and plugged into the
timer
9. The black from this (the timer) is connected to the red from the
first switch and then to the first light, and then a black wire runs to
the second light
10. The neutral from the timer and the breaker are connected and then
are connected to the first light, plus it is run to the second light
11. The second light is connected to the hot and neutral

I might try some ascii art and reply to this, but for now, that will
have to do.

So my main switch seems to work. However, if my timer and lights are
plugged in (timer switch still off), my main switch trips the GFCI
outlet, but the lights still come on. Of course, this means the timer
is no longer running, and turning off the main switch causes the lights
to go out.

I have a feeling this would have worked with a DC circuit, hopefully
somebody can help!

Adam

Yes, I think you got it.

The one thing not noted is the outlet between the timer defeat and the
timer. It just passes the current through to the timer, but if the hot
is provided by the first switch, could that back feed the timer in an
undesirable way?

I'm at the point of thinking there is a small short somewhere. But in
all respects it doesn't add up. Here are my "test results":

1. The main switch works the lights as expected when the second feed is
disconnected (completely unplugged, or GFCI is tripped).

2. If the second feed is plugged into the GFCI outlet (removing the
timer from the equation) and the timer defeat is OFF and the main
switch is turned ON, the GFCI trips.

3. Using the GFCI as an outlet to an unrelated load (skill saw,
worklight) works as expected (the timer defeat also works). Lights work
as expected from main switch.

4. Turning main switch OFF and providing the current to the lights from
an outlet on another circuit works as expected.

4a. Turning the main switch ON blows the breaker for this circuit AND
the one for the other outlet. (This was probably not the safest of
tests, now that I think about it).

I hope this gives a bit more insight.

Rich Greenberg wrote:
In article .com,
Adam wrote:
I need to install parallel switches to a couple of lights. And so you
don't think I mean a common 3-way switch, I want this behavior:

Both on: lights on
A on: lights on
B on: lights on
Both off: lights off

This is just (A OR B) logic.

I can't quite visualize your description. Here is my attempt to draw
it: (fixed font suggested)


------------------------------------------
| |
X switch X timer
Hot (black) | | to
----------------------------------X timer defeat load

Neutral (white)
-------------------------------------------------------

Ground (green)
-------------------------------------------------------

Is this what you want?

--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

Adam wrote:

Yes, I think you got it.

The one thing not noted is the outlet between the timer defeat and the
timer. It just passes the current through to the timer, but if the hot
is provided by the first switch, could that back feed the timer in an
undesirable way?

I'm at the point of thinking there is a small short somewhere. But in
all respects it doesn't add up. Here are my "test results":

1. The main switch works the lights as expected when the second feed is
disconnected (completely unplugged, or GFCI is tripped).

2. If the second feed is plugged into the GFCI outlet (removing the
timer from the equation) and the timer defeat is OFF and the main
switch is turned ON, the GFCI trips.

3. Using the GFCI as an outlet to an unrelated load (skill saw,
worklight) works as expected (the timer defeat also works). Lights work
as expected from main switch.

4. Turning main switch OFF and providing the current to the lights from
an outlet on another circuit works as expected.

4a. Turning the main switch ON blows the breaker for this circuit AND
the one for the other outlet. (This was probably not the safest of
tests, now that I think about it).

I hope this gives a bit more insight.

Rich Greenberg wrote:

In article .com,
Adam wrote:

I need to install parallel switches to a couple of lights. And so you
don't think I mean a common 3-way switch, I want this behavior:

Both on: lights on
A on: lights on
B on: lights on
Both off: lights off

This is just (A OR B) logic.

I can't quite visualize your description. Here is my attempt to draw
it: (fixed font suggested)


------------------------------------------
| |
X switch X timer
Hot (black) | | to
----------------------------------X timer defeat load

Neutral (white)
-------------------------------------------------------

Ground (green)
-------------------------------------------------------

Is this what you want?

--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L



Have you made sure that the "12-2" and the "plug/ground" plygged into
the timer isn't crosswired and thus creating a short circuit?

That'd be my best guess.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

I did, and I double and triple checked all the wiring.

It turns out the GFCI outlet was the cause of all the problems. Someone
on the alt.construction.building group pointed this out. I'll quote
him:

If you use a regular receptacle, everything should work fine with your
circuit. For the GFCI to work properly, the current in its hot and
neutral loads must be equal, and this is impossible to insure when the
lights have a separate parallel power source. So if you want GFCI
protection, you need to put it in before any of the switches.

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks for all the input guys!

Adam