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Propane Tank Location?
In misc.rural Jonathan Grobe wrote: : What are the rules about propane tank location : (distance from the house, etc). Are these national : rules or do they vary with individual states? : -- : Jonathan Grobe Books : Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at: : http://www.grobebooks.com Orientation is probably the most critical - you can't place it such that the ends of the tank are aimed at your house. If it explodes, the ends shoot out so you want to make sure they are pointing somewhere else... |
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In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:37:36 +0000 (UTC), wrote: In misc.rural Jonathan Grobe wrote: : What are the rules about propane tank location : (distance from the house, etc). Are these national : rules or do they vary with individual states? Orientation is probably the most critical - you can't place it such that the ends of the tank are aimed at your house. If it explodes, the ends shoot out so you want to make sure they are pointing somewhere else... Ayup. I've seen video of a propane tank doing the BLEVE (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion) trick, and it's impressive... and something to avoid being near... We got lucky and avoided at least *THAT* particular problem when the house burned down a couple years ago. Fire guys were *REAL* interested in knowing where the (recently topped off in preparation for the oncoming winter) 300+ gallon propane tank was when they first got here, and once located, kept a hose on it for the duration. Stuff further from the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or more before they actually managed to arrive. (Absolutely no intent to slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car - "Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action" firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.) The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else that burned in the house. -- Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address. See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details. |
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On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:05:08 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz wrote: Ayup. I've seen video of a propane tank doing the BLEVE (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion) trick, and it's impressive... and something to avoid being near... We got lucky and avoided at least *THAT* particular problem when the house burned down a couple years ago. Fire guys were *REAL* interested in knowing where the (recently topped off in preparation for the oncoming winter) 300+ gallon propane tank was when they first got here, and once located, kept a hose on it for the duration. Yep. There's a vent on the top (round pipe looking thing a few inches high) that is _supposed to_ open when the tank pressure is high. We had a fire where that was venting, and near the fire, of course it was a hella-big torch. That was fine, really, we didn't mind. Kept a hose on the tank, so the surface stayed wet (below boiling point of water on the outside = not too hot on the inside). We weren't nervous until the venting stopped, because there's no way to know if it was just empty (it was), or if the vent had melted shut or something. There was some pucker-factor at that one. Stuff further from the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or more before they actually managed to arrive. Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say "blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the exposures. (Absolutely no intent to slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car - Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like, well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water. "Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action" firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.) Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though. The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else that burned in the house. Saved the horses? Fantastic. That was another fire recently, at a horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40 or 50 of 'em. Not a good ride to that fire, let me tell you. But, they all got out. Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the county for a bit, but there ya go. |
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"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:05:08 GMT, Don Bruder wrote: In article , Dave Hinz wrote: Ayup. I've seen video of a propane tank doing the BLEVE (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion) trick, and it's impressive... and something to avoid being near... We got lucky and avoided at least *THAT* particular problem when the house burned down a couple years ago. Fire guys were *REAL* interested in knowing where the (recently topped off in preparation for the oncoming winter) 300+ gallon propane tank was when they first got here, and once located, kept a hose on it for the duration. Yep. There's a vent on the top (round pipe looking thing a few inches high) that is _supposed to_ open when the tank pressure is high. We had a fire where that was venting, and near the fire, of course it was a hella-big torch. That was fine, really, we didn't mind. Kept a hose on the tank, so the surface stayed wet (below boiling point of water on the outside = not too hot on the inside). We weren't nervous until the venting stopped, because there's no way to know if it was just empty (it was), or if the vent had melted shut or something. There was some pucker-factor at that one. Stuff further from the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or more before they actually managed to arrive. Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say "blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the exposures. (Absolutely no intent to slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car - Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like, well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water. "Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action" firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.) Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though. The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else that burned in the house. Saved the horses? Fantastic. That was another fire recently, at a horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40 or 50 of 'em. Not a good ride to that fire, let me tell you. But, they all got out. Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the county for a bit, but there ya go. why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot in that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway? |
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On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:
why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot in that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway? Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then? |
#7
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"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote: why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot in that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway? Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then? wouldn't you smell it? |
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In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote: Stuff further from the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or more before they actually managed to arrive. Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say "blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the exposures. Gawd, *THAT* had to be a nightmare... (Absolutely no intent to slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car - Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like, well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water. Hmmm... Yeah, I guess that would be an accurate description "Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action" firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.) Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though. Believe me... I know from experience *EXACTLY* how long a time it is when you're the one on the calling end - Without going into the math involved to get a multi-digits-to-the-right-of-the-decimal number, "For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else that burned in the house. Saved the horses? Fantastic. The only way the horses were ever in danger was if the surroundings caught, or something "turned violent" (exploding propane tanks, ammo, etc) in the fire. Otherwise, they were far enough away that they were all safe. When the ammo started cooking off, the closet that it was stored in had already fallen into the basement, so that was pretty much a non-issue. Amazingly enough, the largest hazard (aside from the fire itself) was the exploding canned goods - You'd hear a weird KER-THWUMP!, and next thing you knew, there was this jagged hunk of metal bouncing past you at high speed! Two years later, I'm *STILL* finding tin-can shrapnel scattered around the property. That was another fire recently, at a horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40 or 50 of 'em. As a lifelong horseman (frequently bunking in quarters attached to/part of the barn), I know all about the terror of barn fires. Throw the doors open, prod the stock with anything that will spook them out and keep them there, be it a rope, a shovel, or a pitchfork, and then hope like hell you can close things up and/or guard the approaches well enough to keep them from running back in to what they consider a place of safety. And then cry for the ones you couldn't get/keep out. Not a good ride to that fire, let me tell you. But, they all got out. That's good to hear, at least! Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the county for a bit, but there ya go. I'd *MUCH* rather be scrounging for a chunk of fenced land to park 'em on for a while than burying them... -- Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address. See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details. |
#9
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Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started
in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say "blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the exposures. The joke in southern Louisiana for the local volunteer fire department was, "They always get there in time to save the foundation and fireplace." Steve |
#10
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In article 4u1%e.84538$DW1.48492@fed1read06,
"SteveB" wrote: Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say "blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the exposures. The joke in southern Louisiana for the local volunteer fire department was, "They always get there in time to save the foundation and fireplace." Methinks that qualifies as what they call "gallows humor", no? Basically, that's when the FD got here for ours - But as I said, I can't blame them. They had 20 miles to travel, with most of the last 4 being steep uphills, and the last 2 of that switchback gravel. I do the trip in my wannabe-sports-car in about half an hour when I drive with a heavy foot and no traffic. I am, to be perfectly honest, quite impressed that the first truck was able to get here in "only" 45 minutes. An hour or longer for first ground-based response wouldn't have surprised me even a little bit. Air response, on the other hand, was fairly quick, since we've got the tanker base about 8 minutes away by air. CDF Air-attack was circling overhead about 15-20 minutes after the initial call, with chatter on the scanner telling me that they had a borate bomber in the air and orbiting the tanker base, two more on the strip with engines hot and waiting for the "go" with an ETA of 10 minutes, the crew for a fourth prepping, a dozer crew on standby, plus two choppers with dip-buckets (Big advantage: the lake that more-or-less surrounds us is mighty conveniently located for firefighting purposes if you've got aircraft that can dip out of it) en-route from Grass Valley with an ETA of 12 minutes - Since the area is definite "wilderness interface", they went full response right from jump in an effort to keep it from getting off the property. Thankfully, it worked. Before all was said and done, over 15 ground units and 8 aircraft, plus I-don't-even-know-how-many bodies got involved in stomping this one out. Unfortunately, keeping it from turning into a full-scale California wildfire was the only thing they had any prayer of doing by the time they were able to get bodies on-scene. The house was pretty much "It's only still standing 'cause the wind hasn't blown hard enough to knock the last of it over yet" when the first truck rolled up the driveway, with some of the closer trees starting to catch. They put the hose on the propane tank, and went to work knocking out the trees that were burning, and didn't turn their attention to the house proper until the second and third trucks rolled in. By then, most of the house had fallen into the foundation, turning the whole mess into a pretty good rendition of the ultimate barbecue pit - Trying to get any closer than about 50 feet was a good way to remove any facial hair you might have been wearing... -- Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address. See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details. |
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The weak spot on a tank is the long seam, not the circ seam for the
heads. A BLEVE will only happen when the pressure rise is so high as to not allow the relief valve to vent properly, the long seam rips open so fast that is runs the length the the tank due to the rising pressure in the tank. Once the long seam hits the circ seam it will run around the circ. If the pressure is still rising due to the high heat imput the heads will come off. If the pressure rise has slowed down due to the long seam being opened, no heads will fly off. On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:37:36 +0000 (UTC), wrote: In misc.rural Jonathan Grobe wrote: : What are the rules about propane tank location : (distance from the house, etc). Are these national : rules or do they vary with individual states? : -- : Jonathan Grobe Books : Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at: : http://www.grobebooks.com Orientation is probably the most critical - you can't place it such that the ends of the tank are aimed at your house. If it explodes, the ends shoot out so you want to make sure they are pointing somewhere else... |
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Many jurisdictions allow buired tanks. They have a special coating to
reduce corrosion and have anodes on the to corode first. Over 50% of all new tank installations in the US are now buired. See the web sites for tank manufacturers such as American Tank or Trinity. On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:24:41 -0700, "Charles Spitzer" wrote: "Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote: why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot in that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway? Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then? wouldn't you smell it? |
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On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:24:41 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote: why don't more places allow burying the tanks? Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then? wouldn't you smell it? Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel tanks. |
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On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:48:50 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz wrote: Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say "blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the exposures. Gawd, *THAT* had to be a nightmare... Well, it was pretty exciting when one neighbor came over and said "His car is gone, but I think his parents used to live there with him..." For a while, we didn't know if we'd have a recovery situation, or just the fire. Turned out they had moved out years before (he didn't talk to anyone much). Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like, well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water. Hmmm... Yeah, I guess that would be an accurate description Did I mention top-heavy? "Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action" firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.) Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though. Believe me... I know from experience *EXACTLY* how long a time it is when you're the one on the calling end - Without going into the math involved to get a multi-digits-to-the-right-of-the-decimal number, "For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation Is that metric, or imperial "for-freaking-ever", though? These details are important. FWIW, the ride there seems pretty damn long too. Saved the horses? Fantastic. The only way the horses were ever in danger was if the surroundings caught, or something "turned violent" (exploding propane tanks, ammo, etc) in the fire. Otherwise, they were far enough away that they were all safe. I've been told that horses, when they see a dangerous situation, want to run "home". That's bad if "home" is the barn that's on fire. When the ammo started cooking off, the closet that it was stored in had already fallen into the basement, so that was pretty much a non-issue. Amazingly enough, the largest hazard (aside from the fire itself) was the exploding canned goods - You'd hear a weird KER-THWUMP!, oh, yeah. You bet. Also all those spray-paint cans in your basement shop? Nice popping. Ammo sounds like firecrackers or popcorn. Underwhelming. and next thing you knew, there was this jagged hunk of metal bouncing past you at high speed! Two years later, I'm *STILL* finding tin-can shrapnel scattered around the property. That'll make an impression on you... That was another fire recently, at a horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40 or 50 of 'em. As a lifelong horseman (frequently bunking in quarters attached to/part of the barn), I know all about the terror of barn fires. Throw the doors open, prod the stock with anything that will spook them out and keep them there, be it a rope, a shovel, or a pitchfork, and then hope like hell you can close things up and/or guard the approaches well enough to keep them from running back in to what they consider a place of safety. Exactly. And then cry for the ones you couldn't get/keep out. Haven't had to deal with that, yet. Been to one where the person didn't get out of the barn, though. 15 years later, I can still picture it. not good. Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the county for a bit, but there ya go. I'd *MUCH* rather be scrounging for a chunk of fenced land to park 'em on for a while than burying them... Yup. |
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:31:04 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article 4u1%e.84538$DW1.48492@fed1read06, "SteveB" wrote: The joke in southern Louisiana for the local volunteer fire department was, "They always get there in time to save the foundation and fireplace." Methinks that qualifies as what they call "gallows humor", no? Yup. Careful with that around here. You'll get angry emails. Air response, on the other hand, was fairly quick, since we've got the tanker base about 8 minutes away by air. Ah, we don't have that option. Although, the medical helicopters are about 30 minutes out either direction which is nice. Again, that's a LONG 30 minutes. Unfortunately, keeping it from turning into a full-scale California wildfire was the only thing they had any prayer of doing by the time they were able to get bodies on-scene. The house was pretty much "It's only still standing 'cause the wind hasn't blown hard enough to knock the last of it over yet" when the first truck rolled up the driveway, with some of the closer trees starting to catch. They put the hose on the propane tank, and went to work knocking out the trees that were burning, and didn't turn their attention to the house proper until the second and third trucks rolled in. Yeah, sounds like it wouldn't have mattered anyway. You might be surprised how good a "totalled" structure can look. Dave |
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On 30 Sep 2005 14:34:10 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:
Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel tanks. Tanks designed for burial are coated with a very thick, probably half inch, coating of asphalt. Such coated tanks do not rust. Burying propane tanks has been around at least since I was a kid, for I recall seeing them. I imagine they have this coating thing pretty well figured out by now. FWIW, they recently dug up some est 80 year old asphalted gas tanks from an abandoned gas station across the street. The tanks were in perfect condition and still contained some probably 30 year old gasoline. No rust inside or out. It seemed such a shame to cut them up and haul them away. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN |
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:10:25 -0400, wrote:
The weak spot on a tank is the long seam, not the circ seam for the heads. A BLEVE will only happen when the pressure rise is so high as to not allow the relief valve to vent properly, the long seam rips open so fast that is runs the length the the tank due to the rising pressure in the tank. Once the long seam hits the circ seam it will run around the circ. If the pressure is still rising due to the high heat imput the heads will come off. If the pressure rise has slowed down due to the long seam being opened, no heads will fly off. This is correct. The head is the strongest part, as is the weld. I've seen the aftermath of two BLEVEs and seen many more photos. Most opened up at the seam as you say, but one opened away from the seam. In that case, it looked like the fire had been concentrated in that area, undoubtedly weakening the metal. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN |
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"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:24:41 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote: "Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote: why don't more places allow burying the tanks? Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then? wouldn't you smell it? Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel tanks. as others have said, they coat them. i buried mine, and was just wondering why they didn't do this a lot more. i expect the empty tank costs more, but i didn't compare prices when i ordered mine. it certainly was more expensive for permits and time consuming to get the fire dept to come out to inspect and map it for their records. all you can see is the metal cap over the valves, which are below ground level. i saved in that i didn't have to build a wall around it to hide it, so the cost was pretty much a wash i'd expect. |
#20
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In article t,
Larry Caldwell wrote: In article , (Don Bruder) says... Unfortunately, keeping it from turning into a full-scale California wildfire was the only thing they had any prayer of doing by the time they were able to get bodies on-scene. The house was pretty much "It's only still standing 'cause the wind hasn't blown hard enough to knock the last of it over yet" when the first truck rolled up the driveway, with some of the closer trees starting to catch. They put the hose on the propane tank, and went to work knocking out the trees that were burning, and didn't turn their attention to the house proper until the second and third trucks rolled in. By then, most of the house had fallen into the foundation, turning the whole mess into a pretty good rendition of the ultimate barbecue pit - Trying to get any closer than about 50 feet was a good way to remove any facial hair you might have been wearing... How did it start? At first, the (electric) hot water heater was suspectd, but once they got that out of the pit and into the lab for analysis, the verdict came back saying that other than fire damage, it appeared to be in perfect working order, with no signs of shorting or other possible fire source. Second "most popular" suspect: Brand new (Less than 6 weeks) HVAC system, but that was basically untestable - It pretty much turned into a melted puddle of aluminum and copper with embedded "other widgets" in the bottom of an almost unrecognizably warped and twisted steel box. Verbiage in the "final determination" box of the report: unknown cause/accidental. -- Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address. See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details. |
#21
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:30:01 -0400, Neon John wrote:
On 30 Sep 2005 14:34:10 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote: Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel tanks. Tanks designed for burial are coated with a very thick, probably half inch, coating of asphalt. Such coated tanks do not rust. Oh, I agree, but that's not direct soil contact then. You wouldn't want to bury a stanard propane tank, though. Burying propane tanks has been around at least since I was a kid, for I recall seeing them. I imagine they have this coating thing pretty well figured out by now. Asphalt goes back a few thousand years, so probably, yup. FWIW, they recently dug up some est 80 year old asphalted gas tanks from an abandoned gas station across the street. The tanks were in perfect condition and still contained some probably 30 year old gasoline. No rust inside or out. It seemed such a shame to cut them up and haul them away. And yet, no doubt, by some law it was required, am I right? I mean, why actually test for real problems when you can just pass sweeping generalizations and all that? |
#22
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In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote: Well, it was pretty exciting when one neighbor came over and said "His car is gone, but I think his parents used to live there with him..." For a while, we didn't know if we'd have a recovery situation, or just the fire. Turned out they had moved out years before (he didn't talk to anyone much). Ugh... We were in the same situation here - After calling 911, I went back down to the house (I live in an apartment hooked to a separate garage/shop several hundred feet away from the house) and managed to call two of the three dogs to the master bedroom sliding doors and drag them out, but couldn't get a visual or audible confirmation that the house was clear. Third dog didn't answer to calls, and the smoke layer was low enough that I couldn't get an angle to see whether there was anybody in the bed. I was trying to get a visual when the hallway ceiling started falling in flaming chunks and fire started blasting through the bedroom door. Being dressed in a nothing but a pair of fruit-of-the-looms and bluejeans, I decided that discretion was probably the better part of valor, slid the door shut with a muttered "I hope they're all out...", and dragged the dogs further away. It was nervous when the first truck got here, since I couldn't give a definite "somebody/nobody inside" response. It wasn't until about 10-15 minutes after the first truck arrived that I was finally able to raise the owner by cell-phone - Not for lack of trying - Kept getting that "The customer you have dialed is unavailable" message. Once things got calmer, I found out why... He was in the cell-phone place at the mall buying a new one, getting his old one turned off, and the new one programmed. His very first incoming call on that phone was me with the news that the house was burning - Helluva "phone-warming gift". Once I raised him, was able to verify that nobody was supposed to be in the house other than the dogs, since he, his wife, her father, and their weekend houseguest were all in the next city over. For some strange reason, the boys in yellow suddenly seemed a *WHOLE LOT* happier when that news was relayed. I can't possibly imagine why... Believe me... I know from experience *EXACTLY* how long a time it is when you're the one on the calling end - Without going into the math involved to get a multi-digits-to-the-right-of-the-decimal number, "For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation Is that metric, or imperial "for-freaking-ever", though? Well, according to my understanding, it's similar to "forty below" - It's one of those special values they call a "dimensionless number" (or, if you're a Fred Pohl fan, a "Gosh number" - See his "Annals of the Heechee" series for a full discussion) - You can say the number, and it doesn't matter what scale you use: It's all the same. 40 below Farenheit, 40 below Celsius - Same thing. These details are important. FWIW, the ride there seems pretty damn long too. I don't doubt that even a little - "Am I gonna buy it this time? Is Joe over there across the aisle? How many dead bodies are we going to have to pull out of this one", and similar things have to be going through your mind on a constant loop for the whole ride. Saved the horses? Fantastic. The only way the horses were ever in danger was if the surroundings caught, or something "turned violent" (exploding propane tanks, ammo, etc) in the fire. Otherwise, they were far enough away that they were all safe. I've been told that horses, when they see a dangerous situation, want to run "home". That's bad if "home" is the barn that's on fire. That's more than an "I've been told" - It's absolute fact. Horse response to a threat of any kind that can be run away from is "Go to safety, at high speed." The downside of that is that it's completely predictable what's going to happen in a barn fi You're going to find the horse that managed to get back in dead in his/her own usual stall - A place where it's "safe" according to their little pea-brains - even if there are burning timbers falling into it. When the ammo started cooking off, the closet that it was stored in had already fallen into the basement, so that was pretty much a non-issue. Amazingly enough, the largest hazard (aside from the fire itself) was the exploding canned goods - You'd hear a weird KER-THWUMP!, oh, yeah. You bet. Also all those spray-paint cans in your basement shop? Nice popping. Ammo sounds like firecrackers or popcorn. Underwhelming. Yeah, the ammo (a mix totalling several hundred rounds of 9mm, .38, ..30-06, .22, and 12 gauge) was far less than impressive. Sounded about like the usual popping and crackling of a typical campfire. The canned stuff was *MUCH* more impressive, sounding a lot like mortar rounds being launched. (and behaving much the same, overall) and next thing you knew, there was this jagged hunk of metal bouncing past you at high speed! Two years later, I'm *STILL* finding tin-can shrapnel scattered around the property. That'll make an impression on you... In more ways than one! As a lifelong horseman (frequently bunking in quarters attached to/part of the barn), I know all about the terror of barn fires. Throw the doors open, prod the stock with anything that will spook them out and keep them there, be it a rope, a shovel, or a pitchfork, and then hope like hell you can close things up and/or guard the approaches well enough to keep them from running back in to what they consider a place of safety. Exactly. And then cry for the ones you couldn't get/keep out. Haven't had to deal with that, yet. Been to one where the person didn't get out of the barn, though. 15 years later, I can still picture it. not good. Being the misanthropic @$$hole I am, I'd be more inclined to have nightmares/flashbacks/PTSD/whatever you want to call it over the horses that didn't make it out than a human that didn't. But that's just my (admittedly somewhat "bent") personality. -- Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address. See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details. |
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:51:52 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article , Once I raised him, was able to verify that nobody was supposed to be in the house other than the dogs, since he, his wife, her father, and their weekend houseguest were all in the next city over. For some strange reason, the boys in yellow suddenly seemed a *WHOLE LOT* happier when that news was relayed. Made their day, no doubt about that. I can't possibly imagine why... I have a theory or two "For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation Is that metric, or imperial "for-freaking-ever", though? Well, according to my understanding, it's similar to "forty below" - Grok that. It's one of those special values they call a "dimensionless number" (or, if you're a Fred Pohl fan, a "Gosh number" - See his "Annals of the Heechee" series for a full discussion) - You can say the number, and it doesn't matter what scale you use: It's all the same. 40 below Farenheit, 40 below Celsius - Same thing. So that's like "hella-big" then? These details are important. FWIW, the ride there seems pretty damn long too. I don't doubt that even a little - "Am I gonna buy it this time? I honestly don't think I've ever thought that on the way to a fire. We're pretty careful not to take stupid chances. If there's nobody in there to rescue, we're not going to risk lives to save a building. Life first, _then_ property. Is Joe over there across the aisle? How many dead bodies are we going to have to pull out of this one", That, yes. "Hope they all got out". and similar things have to be going through your mind on a constant loop for the whole ride. Not really, it's pretty busy getting all your stuff together,testing out the air mask, getting the "nomex" (actually PBI these days) hood to fit right around the mask, checking the guy next to you, getting radios together and on and in that damn pocket on your sleeve where they don't fit right, and so on. But once that's done and you're slowly warming in the gear, then the ride gets long. I've been told that horses, when they see a dangerous situation, want to run "home". That's bad if "home" is the barn that's on fire. That's more than an "I've been told" - It's absolute fact. Horse response to a threat of any kind that can be run away from is "Go to safety, at high speed." The downside of that is that it's completely predictable what's going to happen in a barn fi You're going to find the horse that managed to get back in dead in his/her own usual stall - A place where it's "safe" according to their little pea-brains - even if there are burning timbers falling into it. For a smart animal, they can sure be dumb some times. Haven't had to deal with that, yet. Been to one where the person didn't get out of the barn, though. 15 years later, I can still picture it. not good. Being the misanthropic @$$hole I am, I'd be more inclined to have nightmares/flashbacks/PTSD/whatever you want to call it over the horses that didn't make it out than a human that didn't. But that's just my (admittedly somewhat "bent") personality. Well, I'm pretty...what's the word...gruff? But, that one still bothered me for quite a while. For a couple years, if I'd singe some hair or something the flashback to the scene was intense and detailed. Only good thing about that whole deal is that the coronor's report showed he died pretty much immediately, soon as he stood up and got a lungs-ful of fire. |
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On 30 Sep 2005 17:27:44 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:
FWIW, they recently dug up some est 80 year old asphalted gas tanks from an abandoned gas station across the street. The tanks were in perfect condition and still contained some probably 30 year old gasoline. No rust inside or out. It seemed such a shame to cut them up and haul them away. And yet, no doubt, by some law it was required, am I right? I mean, why actually test for real problems when you can just pass sweeping generalizations and all that? As usual, EPA. They require disturbing tanks that are not leaking just to say that they've been removed from the ground. If someone decided that something just had to be done as a symbolic gesture, cutting a hole in the tank and filling it with soil would inert the tank and preclude any possibility of a cave-in. But that's not good enough. According to the project manager when I asked this question, the tank has to be dug up, cut up and disposed of and photos submitted to the EPA. Madness. Even if they've been leaking, it makes no sense to disturb something that has been buried for decades and are not contaminating things. That's what happened to the station adjacent to this one. The station closed in the 60s. Several tanks had leaked but the fuel had not migrated beyond a few feet from the tank as evidenced by core drilling. They still had to dig up the tanks AND the "contaminated" soil before the property could be sold. It cost over $60k for that meaningless endeavor. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN |
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In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote: It's one of those special values they call a "dimensionless number" (or, if you're a Fred Pohl fan, a "Gosh number" - See his "Annals of the Heechee" series for a full discussion) - You can say the number, and it doesn't matter what scale you use: It's all the same. 40 below Farenheit, 40 below Celsius - Same thing. So that's like "hella-big" then? Yeah, but just a smidgen longer fit right, and so on. But once that's done and you're slowly warming in the gear, then the ride gets long. Never "been there", but I can easily imagine... For a smart animal, they can sure be dumb some times. If I had a nickel for every time I've either heard or said that... Being the misanthropic @$$hole I am, I'd be more inclined to have nightmares/flashbacks/PTSD/whatever you want to call it over the horses that didn't make it out than a human that didn't. But that's just my (admittedly somewhat "bent") personality. Well, I'm pretty...what's the word...gruff? But, that one still bothered me for quite a while. For a couple years, if I'd singe some hair or something the flashback to the scene was intense and detailed. Only good thing about that whole deal is that the coronor's report showed he died pretty much immediately, soon as he stood up and got a lungs-ful of fire. Yeah, that's what we keep telling ourselves here over the dog that didn't make it out. She was last seen sleeping under the dining room table, and that area of the house was fully involved (as in flames roaring out the broken dining room windows, the ceiling collapsing in flaming chunks, and the roof above it starting to droop) by the time I discovered the place was burning. Chances are high that her end was pretty quick, if she even woke up at all. She was a little 10-15 pound-ish "Benji" style mutt. No trace of her was found during the cleanup operation, but that doesn't surprise me a lot - a roughly 50 by 40 foot house and everything in it (and believe me, there was a *****LOAD* of "everything" in it, including a complete woodshop setup, brand new, still in the boxes 'cause they didn't have room to get it unpacked and set up until after Dad and his stuff got moved into the new house that was about 10 days from completion) was reduced to about six of those 10 yard dumpsters worth of charred rubble. On the "plus" side of the ledger, they didn't find out until the next day when I recovered the fire-safe (which, by some miracle, landed "door down" when it fell through the floor into the basement - slamming it fuly shut from its usual "sitting there with the door cracked for easy access" state) and the insurance policy was located, but they were grandfathered in with a "full replacement cost" rider on the policy. Which we found out a couple days later is no longer sold at all since the Oakland firestorm, but since the policy was written prior to that, and was paid up to date on the IC's books, it was by law still in effect for them. They knew they had insurance, but they had completely forgotten about the rider, so it came as at least a hint at a silver lining in a rather large cloud. As I sit here and type this, I've got another window open in the background - That window is output from a homebrewed video system that's creating "time-lapse" movies of the rebuilding that started back toward the first of the month - By the calendar, three days short of being two years to the day from when it burned. As for progress, it's been fast, once things got started. From the camera's viewpoint, it's currently a house that's had the siding and shingles peeled off, and all the doors and windows torn out - All of the exterior framing, along with much of the interior, plus the roof are in place, with the outside walls sheathed and awaiting inspection/insulation/siding/finishing, and the roof about 90% decked. The plumber started building the drains and such yesterday, with an electrician expected to show up sometime next week to start wiring, closely followed by the HVAC guys. I imagine the roofers will be on scene and hammering at about the same time the "inside" guys are doing their thing next week. -- Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address. See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details. |
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