I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The speakers say 6
ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding longer wire affect the
sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD players that costs about $200.

Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the right
answer.

Steve

SteveB, 9/15/2005, vqnWe.79969$DW1.8179@fed1read06,7:26:20 PM, wrote:

I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The
speakers say 6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding
longer wire affect the sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD
players that costs about $200.

Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the
right answer.

Steve

It won't make your stereo sound any worse than it does now.

--
"They call it golf because all of the other four-letter words were
taken." -- Raymond Floyd

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:vqnWe.79969$DW1.8179@fed1read06...
I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The speakers say
6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding longer wire affect the
sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD players that costs about $200.

Considering the probable low output power of a consumer 'CD player', just
get some #18 lamp cord (aka zip cord) for about 10 cents/foot. Maintain the
same polarity as the factory setup.

"badgolferman" wrote in message
...
SteveB, 9/15/2005, vqnWe.79969$DW1.8179@fed1read06,7:26:20 PM, wrote:

I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The
speakers say 6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding
longer wire affect the sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD
players that costs about $200.

Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the
right answer.

Steve

It won't make your stereo sound any worse than it does now.


Wow. I never realized that asking a simple electronics question would bring
out the elitist snobs.

This stereo is in a mountain cabin. I guess I should put in a great
expensive system there, huh? So I can turn up the bass and blow my eardrums
out like so many people are doing today. Either that, or destroy the
silence and peace I go there to enjoy.

I worked Consumer Electronics Show a couple of years ago at the Alexis Park
Hotel where they have the expensive home systems. I looked at one, and
asked how much it cost. The salesman said, "$250,000".

I asked what made it so valuable. He looked both ways, and then said, "Oh,
it's not worth that much. It is just that there are some people who are so
stupid that they will pay that much."

Heeeeeeeeeere's yer sign.

Grow up, you friggin moron. Goes for Punch, too.

Steve

SteveB wrote:
I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The
speakers say 6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding
longer wire affect the sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD
players that costs about $200.
Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the
right answer.

Steve

You may use anything longer than it is wide and made of metal without
affecting the sound. Barbed wire, coathangers, soldered-together razor
blades, model railroad tracks, dog leash, clothesline, Christmas tree
lights, anything.

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:vqnWe.79969$DW1.8179@fed1read06...
I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The speakers say
6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding longer wire affect the
sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD players that costs about $200.

Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the
right answer.

Steve


if your unti is worth $200, then the sound is already crap, so you wouldn't
notice a difference...

Any COPPER wire should do the job. For a more professional look you can
coat the ends with solder. It also makes stranded wiring less of a
hassle.


--
ebackhus

Old houses have fuses! My house is old!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ebackhus's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=90
View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=58439

SteveB, 9/15/2005, RSnWe.79972$DW1.33998@fed1read06,7:56:35 PM, wrote:

Heeeeeeeeeere's yer sign.

Grow up, you friggin moron. Goes for Punch, too.

Steve

You should take your own advice also. You have assumed a certain
attitude that wasn't there in the first place.

I used to have a very high-end system that I collected over years and
eventually stopped listening to because I listen to AM talk radio now.
I sold it all on Ebay and bought a cheap DVD entertainment system. So
you see, I am not an elitist. I just have experience with expensive
and cheap systems. I have added long runs of wire to my current system
and it made no difference in the sound. That was my statement to you.

Cheers.

--
"You've just one problem. You stand too close to the ball after you've
hit it." -- Sam Snead

"ebackhus" wrote in message
...

Any COPPER wire should do the job. For a more professional look you can
coat the ends with solder. It also makes stranded wiring less of a
hassle.

Not just any copper wire, it has to be oxygen free according to some
advertisements. (I though all copper wire was oxygen free???) Oh, it also
has to be expensive. VERY expensive.

"badgolferman" wrote

I have added long runs of wire to my current system
and it made no difference in the sound.

Cheers.

Really simple when you say it that way, isn't it?

Steve

SteveB wrote:
"badgolferman" wrote in message
...

SteveB, 9/15/2005, vqnWe.79969$DW1.8179@fed1read06,7:26:20 PM, wrote:


I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The
speakers say 6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding
longer wire affect the sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD
players that costs about $200.

Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the
right answer.

Steve

It won't make your stereo sound any worse than it does now.



Wow. I never realized that asking a simple electronics question would bring
out the elitist snobs.

This stereo is in a mountain cabin. I guess I should put in a great
expensive system there, huh? So I can turn up the bass and blow my eardrums
out like so many people are doing today. Either that, or destroy the
silence and peace I go there to enjoy.

I worked Consumer Electronics Show a couple of years ago at the Alexis Park
Hotel where they have the expensive home systems. I looked at one, and
asked how much it cost. The salesman said, "$250,000".

I asked what made it so valuable. He looked both ways, and then said, "Oh,
it's not worth that much. It is just that there are some people who are so
stupid that they will pay that much."

Heeeeeeeeeere's yer sign.

Grow up, you friggin moron. Goes for Punch, too.

Steve


I think the sarcasm is probably generated by the
outrageous advertising about the need for large
size wire for speakers.

The fact is that for the average consumer system
and the average person, any reasonable size wire
(say 16 gauge or larger) is just fine for any
reasonable length of wire (don't know what
reasonable is but certainly 20 feet is
reasonable). Just use ordinary lamp cord (16
gauge) and you will be fine. And yes, if you use
tiny wire you will have fall of some of the
frequencies, but you still would need an expensive
system and a very good ear to tell the difference
or not be able to adjust the system to correct the
frequency fall off.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
"badgolferman" wrote in message
...

SteveB, 9/15/2005, vqnWe.79969$DW1.8179@fed1read06,7:26:20 PM, wrote:


I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The
speakers say 6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding
longer wire affect the sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD
players that costs about $200.

Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the
right answer.

Steve

It won't make your stereo sound any worse than it does now.



Wow. I never realized that asking a simple electronics question would
bring out the elitist snobs.

This stereo is in a mountain cabin. I guess I should put in a great
expensive system there, huh? So I can turn up the bass and blow my
eardrums out like so many people are doing today. Either that, or
destroy the silence and peace I go there to enjoy.

I worked Consumer Electronics Show a couple of years ago at the Alexis
Park Hotel where they have the expensive home systems. I looked at one,
and asked how much it cost. The salesman said, "$250,000".

I asked what made it so valuable. He looked both ways, and then said,
"Oh, it's not worth that much. It is just that there are some people who
are so stupid that they will pay that much."

Heeeeeeeeeere's yer sign.

Grow up, you friggin moron. Goes for Punch, too.

Steve
I think the sarcasm is probably generated by the outrageous advertising
about the need for large size wire for speakers.

The fact is that for the average consumer system and the average person,
any reasonable size wire (say 16 gauge or larger) is just fine for any
reasonable length of wire (don't know what reasonable is but certainly 20
feet is reasonable). Just use ordinary lamp cord (16 gauge) and you will
be fine. And yes, if you use tiny wire you will have fall of some of the
frequencies, but you still would need an expensive system and a very good
ear to tell the difference or not be able to adjust the system to correct
the frequency fall off.

Thanks, George. What threw me was the 6 ohm rating. In my younger daze
(sic), everything was 8 ohm. These speakers have tiny wires, and I figured
that putting longer smaller wire on there would increase resistance. (I
guess I did stay awake during some of those electronics classes.)

Figuring that this system is marginal performance at best, I just wanted to
know what would be the best way to run the speakers way up the walls of the
cabin to fill it all with sound, but not make a problem that would take a
day of long tall ladders to redo.

Thanks for all who supplied useful pertinent information.

STeve

I asked what made it so valuable. He looked both ways, and then said, "Oh,
it's not worth that much. It is just that there are some people who are so
stupid that they will pay that much."

Yup. Gotta have one of those too: http://tinyurl.com/274rc

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"ebackhus" wrote in message
...

Any COPPER wire should do the job. For a more professional look you can
coat the ends with solder. It also makes stranded wiring less of a
hassle.

Not just any copper wire, it has to be oxygen free according to some
advertisements. (I though all copper wire was oxygen free???) Oh, it
also
has to be expensive. VERY expensive.



LOL
You should also make sure it was not tested on animals, and is low in
saturated fats.


AMUN

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"ebackhus" wrote in message
...

Any COPPER wire should do the job. For a more professional look you can
coat the ends with solder. It also makes stranded wiring less of a
hassle.


Not just any copper wire, it has to be oxygen free according to some
advertisements. (I though all copper wire was oxygen free???) Oh, it also
has to be expensive. VERY expensive.



With nitrogen charged insulation.

One thing someone only barely touched on-- maintaining polarity. In
other words, if the speaker terminals are red and black, make sure that
on both speakers red is connected to red and black to black (or red to
black on both-- they key being consistency).

Otherwise, because bass is pretty much omnidirectional, if you have
polarity reversed, the speakers will be out of phase and the bass from
one speaker will somewhat cancel the bass from the other.

So-- if you're not sure, try switching the leads on ONE speaker and see
if the bass gets stronger or weaker. You're aiming for stronger.

Oh, and all the sales stuff about $5/foot cable-- nonsense. I spoke to
a salesman about it once, and he told me that his wire was specially
made to reduce skin effect-- which is the tendency of wire to have most
of an AC signal travel on the outer edge of the wire, increasing
resistance. I pointed out to him that skin effect wasn't even at all
relevant at 20 megahertz, and the highest frequency running through
speaker wires was around 20 kilohertz (one thousandth of 20 mhz). He
didn't know what to say. I said no thanks.

Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)

wrote in message
ups.com...

I asked what made it so valuable. He looked both ways, and then said,
"Oh,
it's not worth that much. It is just that there are some people who are
so
stupid that they will pay that much."

Yup. Gotta have one of those too: http://tinyurl.com/274rc


It makes me wonder why I'm not in that buisness

Steve,

Inexpensive 16 ga. "zip" cord from any hardware store makes good speaker
wire. Really, really long runs of wire can affect the performance and sound
but if you keep it under 100' you should be OK.

Dave M.

Actually, all copper wire has some
oxygen in it. Just the melting process to
make copper rod (the precursor to wire)
gets O2 in it. The trick is to make
it as low as possible. If O2 levels get
too high in the copper rod, when the
rod is drawn into wire, it will break.
Sarcasm on: And of course, copper
wire with a minimum of O2 will sound
better.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"ebackhus" wrote in message
...

Any COPPER wire should do the job. For a more professional look you can
coat the ends with solder. It also makes stranded wiring less of a
hassle.


Not just any copper wire, it has to be oxygen free according to some
advertisements. (I though all copper wire was oxygen free???) Oh, it also
has to be expensive. VERY expensive.

wrote in message
ups.com...

I asked what made it so valuable. He looked both ways, and then said,
"Oh,
it's not worth that much. It is just that there are some people who are
so
stupid that they will pay that much."

Yup. Gotta have one of those too: http://tinyurl.com/274rc

Or add a wooden knob to it:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Me...roduct_Count=2

On 16 Sep 2005 05:09:05 -0700, "Shaun Eli" wrote:

One thing someone only barely touched on-- maintaining polarity...

Oh, and all the sales stuff about $5/foot cable-- nonsense. I spoke to
a salesman about it once, and he told me that his wire was specially
made to reduce skin effect-- which is the tendency of wire to have most
of an AC signal travel on the outer edge of the wire, increasing
resistance. I pointed out to him that skin effect wasn't even at all
relevant at 20 megahertz, and the highest frequency running through
speaker wires was around 20 kilohertz (one thousandth of 20 mhz). He
didn't know what to say. I said no thanks.

Thanks for a fine explanation of the need to keep speakers "in phase". PanHandler
mentioned it.

As you probably know, "the skin effect" is something Michael Faraday came up with and
designed a device to prove his theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

I've never used monster cable, but I used to use the largest "speaker wire" I could find.
That was as far as I ever went toward being a purist. My goal for using the greater number
of strands was the decrease the work the amplifiers had to do. That was 20 years ago; and
I imagine electronics have improved a lot since then.

These days, my computer is my only sound system. For my needs, I can't imagine a better
arrangement.

You lost me on the explanation about the skin effect being invalid "at 20 megahertz, and
the highest frequency running through speaker wires was around 20 kilohertz (one
thousandth of 20 mhz)." I wondered if you were making reference to the range of human
hearing, 20 hertz to 20 kilohertz: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ChrisDAmbrose.shtml

Regarding "skin effect", I can't address the relationship between, volume, clarity,
amperes, resistance And the range of human hearing. However, I do know that I'd rather run
a powerful system through the larger 10 gauge cable than through smaller 18 gauge wire.
When I die, I want to go where dogs go!

First, thanks to all who are chipping in with so much information.

I have a Magnavox 5 CD changer, with AM/FM, casette, tuner. Not what some
would consider a "real" audio device, but enough to fill the space where it
is used. All I wanted to do was stretch out the speakers and put them up so
that it will fill the high ceilinged cabin with better sound. And to do so
with confidence so I know when I get up there on ladders, that I won't be
having to get up there again for a good while.

Now, with the help of many here, I can confidently do this by using the
right wire, proper polarity, and even soldering the ends to get the right
result.

alt.home.repair is a great place for the stupid, the inexperienced, the
confused, and just the average Joe to come and find answers. After they
wade through the blogs, trolls, malcontents, religious zealots, spammers,
and just plain unhappy people, that is. Lots of good helpful souls here,
just as out in the real world.

Thanks again for the help.

Steve

The 6-ohm rating is the resistance of the speaker. Adding resistance to the
circuit by adding wire will change the sound in that you'll have to turn up
the volume slightly to get the same volume out of the speaker. Too small of
a wire will also start to cut out some of the lowest frequencies (as was
already stated), but the added resistance will help your amp run cooler if
that's any consolation.


"SteveB" wrote in message
news:t8sWe.79987$DW1.15620@fed1read06...

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
"badgolferman" wrote in message
...

SteveB, 9/15/2005, vqnWe.79969$DW1.8179@fed1read06,7:26:20 PM, wrote:


I want to put longer wires on my stereo system speakers. The
speakers say 6 ohm. Longer by about 20 feet each. Will adding
longer wire affect the sound? My stereo is one of those multi CD
players that costs about $200.

Figured this was an on topic question, and some genius would have the
right answer.

Steve

It won't make your stereo sound any worse than it does now.



Wow. I never realized that asking a simple electronics question would
bring out the elitist snobs.

This stereo is in a mountain cabin. I guess I should put in a great
expensive system there, huh? So I can turn up the bass and blow my
eardrums out like so many people are doing today. Either that, or
destroy the silence and peace I go there to enjoy.

I worked Consumer Electronics Show a couple of years ago at the Alexis
Park Hotel where they have the expensive home systems. I looked at
one,
and asked how much it cost. The salesman said, "$250,000".

I asked what made it so valuable. He looked both ways, and then said,
"Oh, it's not worth that much. It is just that there are some people
who
are so stupid that they will pay that much."

Heeeeeeeeeere's yer sign.

Grow up, you friggin moron. Goes for Punch, too.

Steve
I think the sarcasm is probably generated by the outrageous advertising
about the need for large size wire for speakers.

The fact is that for the average consumer system and the average person,
any reasonable size wire (say 16 gauge or larger) is just fine for any
reasonable length of wire (don't know what reasonable is but certainly
20
feet is reasonable). Just use ordinary lamp cord (16 gauge) and you
will
be fine. And yes, if you use tiny wire you will have fall of some of
the
frequencies, but you still would need an expensive system and a very
good
ear to tell the difference or not be able to adjust the system to
correct
the frequency fall off.

Thanks, George. What threw me was the 6 ohm rating. In my younger daze
(sic), everything was 8 ohm. These speakers have tiny wires, and I
figured
that putting longer smaller wire on there would increase resistance. (I
guess I did stay awake during some of those electronics classes.)

Figuring that this system is marginal performance at best, I just wanted
to
know what would be the best way to run the speakers way up the walls of
the
cabin to fill it all with sound, but not make a problem that would take a
day of long tall ladders to redo.

Thanks for all who supplied useful pertinent information.

STeve

According to Michael A. Ball :

You lost me on the explanation about the skin effect being invalid "at 20 megahertz, and
the highest frequency running through speaker wires was around 20 kilohertz (one
thousandth of 20 mhz)." I wondered if you were making reference to the range of human
hearing, 20 hertz to 20 kilohertz: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ChrisDAmbrose.shtml

About that... To amplify:

Skin effect is the effect by which the conduction of electrons tends
to concentrate on the "skin" of the wire at higher A/C frequencies. Which
means that the effective resistance of the wire increases as the frequency
increases.

The higher the frequency, the more pronounced the effect. At 0 hz, there
is no effect.

This is why monster cable salespeople insist that using stranded cable
reduces wire-induced distortion.

Conceptually, if skin effect mattered, it'd suppress high frequency response.

Skin effect is real. It's a very critical consideration at microwave frequencies
in terms of antennas and wiring. A rod of copper an inch thick may no better
conductivity than copper foil made into a inch diameter tube.

But it only matters at 100s or 1000s of Mhz.

Skin effect is effectively non-existant at audio frequencies (20..20Khz).

Stranded cable is only "better" insofar as it's more flexible.

Regarding "skin effect", I can't address the relationship between, volume, clarity,
amperes, resistance And the range of human hearing. However, I do know that I'd rather run
a powerful system through the larger 10 gauge cable than through smaller 18 gauge wire.

You may "rather", but for the most part, the difference is impossible to detect.
Unless your "powerful system" is rated in the 1000s of watts and the wires are
hundreds of feet long.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
news
Actually, all copper wire has some oxygen in it. Just the melting process
to
make copper rod (the precursor to wire) gets O2 in it. The trick is to
make
it as low as possible. If O2 levels get too high in the copper rod, when
the
rod is drawn into wire, it will break. Sarcasm on: And of course, copper
wire with a minimum of O2 will sound better.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"ebackhus" wrote in message
...

Any COPPER wire should do the job. For a more professional look you can
coat the ends with solder. It also makes stranded wiring less of a
hassle.


Not just any copper wire, it has to be oxygen free according to some
advertisements. (I though all copper wire was oxygen free???) Oh, it
also has to be expensive. VERY expensive.

Oxygen free speaker wire is great! In fact, I use it for all my table lamps
now. Makes the light purer and whiter. ;-)

JustDave

David Martel wrote:

Steve,

Inexpensive 16 ga. "zip" cord from any hardware store makes good speaker
wire. Really, really long runs of wire can affect the performance and sound
but if you keep it under 100' you should be OK.

Dave M.

The problem is resonance. Many TVs have cabinets that resonate at
varous frequencies. The sound from internal speakers will be noisy and
distorted.

The resonance of a room can make a tape recording sound terrible. For
ten years I listened to Koss Pro4AA headphones to avoid the resonance of
room acoustics. Those phones usually performed better than speakers.
In an ideal situation, good speakers could be better; the sound could be
fuller and less harsh.

Then I read about damping factor. It was defined as the ratio between
speaker impedance and amplifier impedance. Feeding speakers with a
relatively low impedance can make a difference because speakers
resonate. They are more efficient at resonant frequencies, and their
impedance is proportionately higher.

My phones were 32 ohms, but receivers were usually designed to feed
headphones through 220 ohms. At frequencies where the impedance was 32
ohms, my phones would be getting 1/8 the voltage from the amplifier.
If, for example, they resonated at 500 and 2000 Hz and their impedance
rose to 220, they'd be getting 4 times more voltage, or half the amp's
voltage. In that case, feeding the phones through 220 ohms would make
500 and 2000 Hz harsh and other frequencies relatively weak.

It cost me only a few cents to change the circuit to a voltage divider
with an output impedance of 0.5 ohm. This meant the voltage at my
phones would be pretty constant for all audible frequencies. What a
difference! The phones were clearer, less harsh, and had a wider, more
even response.

I didn't have to go as low as 0.5 ohm. If I'd built a 3.2-ohm divider,
that would have given me a damping factor of 10 with my 32-ohm phones.
That would probably have been fine.

18-gage copper wire has 6.5 ohms per 1000 feet. If your speaker were 50
feet from the amp, that would be 100 feet of wire or 0.65 ohms. For a
6-ohm speaker, I imagine that would sound fine to most people.

28-gage copper has 66 ohms per 1000 feet. For a speaker 50 feet from
the amp, the resistance would be about the same as the impedance of a
6-ohm speaker. I imagine the difference would be audible.

18 gage sounds big enough for speakers 50 feet away, but the OP might
want to test it by hooking up one speaker through the wire he intends to
use, then using to balance control to see if it still sounds as good as
the other speaker.

The insulation on zip cord usually has a ridge along one of the
conductors. That's how I keep my polarity straight with using it for loudspeakers.

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...
David Martel wrote:

Steve,

Inexpensive 16 ga. "zip" cord from any hardware store makes good
speaker
wire. Really, really long runs of wire can affect the performance and
sound
but if you keep it under 100' you should be OK.

Dave M.

The problem is resonance. Many TVs have cabinets that resonate at
varous frequencies. The sound from internal speakers will be noisy and
distorted.

The resonance of a room can make a tape recording sound terrible. For
ten years I listened to Koss Pro4AA headphones to avoid the resonance of
room acoustics. Those phones usually performed better than speakers.
In an ideal situation, good speakers could be better; the sound could be
fuller and less harsh.

Then I read about damping factor. It was defined as the ratio between
speaker impedance and amplifier impedance. Feeding speakers with a
relatively low impedance can make a difference because speakers
resonate. They are more efficient at resonant frequencies, and their
impedance is proportionately higher.

My phones were 32 ohms, but receivers were usually designed to feed
headphones through 220 ohms. At frequencies where the impedance was 32
ohms, my phones would be getting 1/8 the voltage from the amplifier.
If, for example, they resonated at 500 and 2000 Hz and their impedance
rose to 220, they'd be getting 4 times more voltage, or half the amp's
voltage. In that case, feeding the phones through 220 ohms would make
500 and 2000 Hz harsh and other frequencies relatively weak.

It cost me only a few cents to change the circuit to a voltage divider
with an output impedance of 0.5 ohm. This meant the voltage at my
phones would be pretty constant for all audible frequencies. What a
difference! The phones were clearer, less harsh, and had a wider, more
even response.

I didn't have to go as low as 0.5 ohm. If I'd built a 3.2-ohm divider,
that would have given me a damping factor of 10 with my 32-ohm phones.
That would probably have been fine.

18-gage copper wire has 6.5 ohms per 1000 feet. If your speaker were 50
feet from the amp, that would be 100 feet of wire or 0.65 ohms. For a
6-ohm speaker, I imagine that would sound fine to most people.

28-gage copper has 66 ohms per 1000 feet. For a speaker 50 feet from
the amp, the resistance would be about the same as the impedance of a
6-ohm speaker. I imagine the difference would be audible.

18 gage sounds big enough for speakers 50 feet away, but the OP might
want to test it by hooking up one speaker through the wire he intends to
use, then using to balance control to see if it still sounds as good as
the other speaker.

The insulation on zip cord usually has a ridge along one of the
conductors. That's how I keep my polarity straight with using it for
loudspeakers.

You're talking to someone with about forth percent hearing loss from
industrial noise, years of commercial diving (quick pressurizations,
decompression chambers, 305' exposures, and training chamber runs of
pressuring to 200' in forty seconds) and about seventeen too many ZZ Top
concerts. Good enough is good enough for me.

I can barely tell the difference between a .357 round and a fart.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
I can barely tell the difference between a .357 round and a fart.

Steve

Your nose is gone too, huh?

Choreboy wrote:
David Martel wrote:

Steve,

Inexpensive 16 ga. "zip" cord from any hardware store makes good speaker
wire. Really, really long runs of wire can affect the performance and sound
but if you keep it under 100' you should be OK.

Dave M.


The problem is resonance. Many TVs have cabinets that resonate at
varous frequencies. The sound from internal speakers will be noisy and
distorted.

The resonance of a room can make a tape recording sound terrible. For
ten years I listened to Koss Pro4AA headphones to avoid the resonance of
room acoustics. Those phones usually performed better than speakers.
In an ideal situation, good speakers could be better; the sound could be
fuller and less harsh.

Then I read about damping factor. It was defined as the ratio between
speaker impedance and amplifier impedance. Feeding speakers with a
relatively low impedance can make a difference because speakers
resonate. They are more efficient at resonant frequencies, and their
impedance is proportionately higher.

My phones were 32 ohms, but receivers were usually designed to feed
headphones through 220 ohms. At frequencies where the impedance was 32
ohms, my phones would be getting 1/8 the voltage from the amplifier.
If, for example, they resonated at 500 and 2000 Hz and their impedance
rose to 220, they'd be getting 4 times more voltage, or half the amp's
voltage. In that case, feeding the phones through 220 ohms would make
500 and 2000 Hz harsh and other frequencies relatively weak.

It cost me only a few cents to change the circuit to a voltage divider
with an output impedance of 0.5 ohm. This meant the voltage at my
phones would be pretty constant for all audible frequencies. What a
difference! The phones were clearer, less harsh, and had a wider, more
even response.

I didn't have to go as low as 0.5 ohm. If I'd built a 3.2-ohm divider,
that would have given me a damping factor of 10 with my 32-ohm phones.
That would probably have been fine.

18-gage copper wire has 6.5 ohms per 1000 feet. If your speaker were 50
feet from the amp, that would be 100 feet of wire or 0.65 ohms. For a
6-ohm speaker, I imagine that would sound fine to most people.

28-gage copper has 66 ohms per 1000 feet. For a speaker 50 feet from
the amp, the resistance would be about the same as the impedance of a
6-ohm speaker. I imagine the difference would be audible.

18 gage sounds big enough for speakers 50 feet away, but the OP might
want to test it by hooking up one speaker through the wire he intends to
use, then using to balance control to see if it still sounds as good as
the other speaker.

The insulation on zip cord usually has a ridge along one of the
conductors. That's how I keep my polarity straight with using it for loudspeakers.

Who cares what it sounds like as long as it is loud.

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:2YBWe.80010$DW1.28024@fed1read06...
First, thanks to all who are chipping in with so much information.

I have a Magnavox 5 CD changer, with AM/FM, casette, tuner. Not what some
would consider a "real" audio device, but enough to fill the space where
it is used. All I wanted to do was stretch out the speakers and put them
up so that it will fill the high ceilinged cabin with better sound. And
to do so with confidence so I know when I get up there on ladders, that I
won't be having to get up there again for a good while.

Now, with the help of many here, I can confidently do this by using the
right wire, proper polarity, and even soldering the ends to get the right
result.

alt.home.repair is a great place for the stupid, the inexperienced, the
confused, and just the average Joe to come and find answers. After they
wade through the blogs, trolls, malcontents, religious zealots, spammers,
and just plain unhappy people, that is. Lots of good helpful souls here,
just as out in the real world.

Thanks again for the help.

Steve


I was being helpful, if you can't notice the difference between a crappy
sounding stereo, and a 1/2 decent one, then it doesn't matter how long you
run your speaker wire, because you won't know the difference. You could have
just bought the wire, and tried it out yourself...

"Punch" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:2YBWe.80010$DW1.28024@fed1read06...
First, thanks to all who are chipping in with so much information.

I have a Magnavox 5 CD changer, with AM/FM, casette, tuner. Not what
some would consider a "real" audio device, but enough to fill the space
where it is used. All I wanted to do was stretch out the speakers and
put them up so that it will fill the high ceilinged cabin with better
sound. And to do so with confidence so I know when I get up there on
ladders, that I won't be having to get up there again for a good while.

Now, with the help of many here, I can confidently do this by using the
right wire, proper polarity, and even soldering the ends to get the right
result.

alt.home.repair is a great place for the stupid, the inexperienced, the
confused, and just the average Joe to come and find answers. After they
wade through the blogs, trolls, malcontents, religious zealots, spammers,
and just plain unhappy people, that is. Lots of good helpful souls here,
just as out in the real world.

Thanks again for the help.

Steve


I was being helpful, if you can't notice the difference between a crappy
sounding stereo, and a 1/2 decent one, then it doesn't matter how long you
run your speaker wire, because you won't know the difference. You could
have just bought the wire, and tried it out yourself...


Thank you for sharing.

SteveB wrote:

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...
David Martel wrote:

Steve,

Inexpensive 16 ga. "zip" cord from any hardware store makes good
speaker
wire. Really, really long runs of wire can affect the performance and
sound
but if you keep it under 100' you should be OK.

Dave M.

The problem is resonance. Many TVs have cabinets that resonate at
varous frequencies. The sound from internal speakers will be noisy and
distorted.

The resonance of a room can make a tape recording sound terrible. For
ten years I listened to Koss Pro4AA headphones to avoid the resonance of
room acoustics. Those phones usually performed better than speakers.
In an ideal situation, good speakers could be better; the sound could be
fuller and less harsh.

Then I read about damping factor. It was defined as the ratio between
speaker impedance and amplifier impedance. Feeding speakers with a
relatively low impedance can make a difference because speakers
resonate. They are more efficient at resonant frequencies, and their
impedance is proportionately higher.

My phones were 32 ohms, but receivers were usually designed to feed
headphones through 220 ohms. At frequencies where the impedance was 32
ohms, my phones would be getting 1/8 the voltage from the amplifier.
If, for example, they resonated at 500 and 2000 Hz and their impedance
rose to 220, they'd be getting 4 times more voltage, or half the amp's
voltage. In that case, feeding the phones through 220 ohms would make
500 and 2000 Hz harsh and other frequencies relatively weak.

It cost me only a few cents to change the circuit to a voltage divider
with an output impedance of 0.5 ohm. This meant the voltage at my
phones would be pretty constant for all audible frequencies. What a
difference! The phones were clearer, less harsh, and had a wider, more
even response.

I didn't have to go as low as 0.5 ohm. If I'd built a 3.2-ohm divider,
that would have given me a damping factor of 10 with my 32-ohm phones.
That would probably have been fine.

18-gage copper wire has 6.5 ohms per 1000 feet. If your speaker were 50
feet from the amp, that would be 100 feet of wire or 0.65 ohms. For a
6-ohm speaker, I imagine that would sound fine to most people.

28-gage copper has 66 ohms per 1000 feet. For a speaker 50 feet from
the amp, the resistance would be about the same as the impedance of a
6-ohm speaker. I imagine the difference would be audible.

18 gage sounds big enough for speakers 50 feet away, but the OP might
want to test it by hooking up one speaker through the wire he intends to
use, then using to balance control to see if it still sounds as good as
the other speaker.

The insulation on zip cord usually has a ridge along one of the
conductors. That's how I keep my polarity straight with using it for
loudspeakers.

You're talking to someone with about forth percent hearing loss from
industrial noise, years of commercial diving (quick pressurizations,
decompression chambers, 305' exposures, and training chamber runs of
pressuring to 200' in forty seconds) and about seventeen too many ZZ Top
concerts. Good enough is good enough for me.

I can barely tell the difference between a .357 round and a fart.

Steve

When you opened this thread, you asked, "Will adding longer wire affect
the
sound?" Were you joking?

Some have said wire resistance doesn't matter with cheap speakers. I
think it matters more. Cheap speakers have worse resonance problems,
which means they will be more affected than expensive speakers if both
are fed through too much resistance.

I think the same applies to those of us with damaged hearing. Aren't we
the first to have troubled understanding conversation at a party in a
room with bad acoustics? Likewise, our ears are less able to
accommodate uneven speaker response.

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...


SteveB wrote:

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...
David Martel wrote:

Steve,

Inexpensive 16 ga. "zip" cord from any hardware store makes good
speaker
wire. Really, really long runs of wire can affect the performance and
sound
but if you keep it under 100' you should be OK.

Dave M.

The problem is resonance. Many TVs have cabinets that resonate at
varous frequencies. The sound from internal speakers will be noisy and
distorted.

The resonance of a room can make a tape recording sound terrible. For
ten years I listened to Koss Pro4AA headphones to avoid the resonance
of
room acoustics. Those phones usually performed better than speakers.
In an ideal situation, good speakers could be better; the sound could
be
fuller and less harsh.

Then I read about damping factor. It was defined as the ratio between
speaker impedance and amplifier impedance. Feeding speakers with a
relatively low impedance can make a difference because speakers
resonate. They are more efficient at resonant frequencies, and their
impedance is proportionately higher.

My phones were 32 ohms, but receivers were usually designed to feed
headphones through 220 ohms. At frequencies where the impedance was 32
ohms, my phones would be getting 1/8 the voltage from the amplifier.
If, for example, they resonated at 500 and 2000 Hz and their impedance
rose to 220, they'd be getting 4 times more voltage, or half the amp's
voltage. In that case, feeding the phones through 220 ohms would make
500 and 2000 Hz harsh and other frequencies relatively weak.

It cost me only a few cents to change the circuit to a voltage divider
with an output impedance of 0.5 ohm. This meant the voltage at my
phones would be pretty constant for all audible frequencies. What a
difference! The phones were clearer, less harsh, and had a wider, more
even response.

I didn't have to go as low as 0.5 ohm. If I'd built a 3.2-ohm divider,
that would have given me a damping factor of 10 with my 32-ohm phones.
That would probably have been fine.

18-gage copper wire has 6.5 ohms per 1000 feet. If your speaker were
50
feet from the amp, that would be 100 feet of wire or 0.65 ohms. For a
6-ohm speaker, I imagine that would sound fine to most people.

28-gage copper has 66 ohms per 1000 feet. For a speaker 50 feet from
the amp, the resistance would be about the same as the impedance of a
6-ohm speaker. I imagine the difference would be audible.

18 gage sounds big enough for speakers 50 feet away, but the OP might
want to test it by hooking up one speaker through the wire he intends
to
use, then using to balance control to see if it still sounds as good as
the other speaker.

The insulation on zip cord usually has a ridge along one of the
conductors. That's how I keep my polarity straight with using it for
loudspeakers.

You're talking to someone with about forth percent hearing loss from
industrial noise, years of commercial diving (quick pressurizations,
decompression chambers, 305' exposures, and training chamber runs of
pressuring to 200' in forty seconds) and about seventeen too many ZZ Top
concerts. Good enough is good enough for me.

I can barely tell the difference between a .357 round and a fart.

Steve

When you opened this thread, you asked, "Will adding longer wire affect
the
sound?" Were you joking?

Some have said wire resistance doesn't matter with cheap speakers. I
think it matters more. Cheap speakers have worse resonance problems,
which means they will be more affected than expensive speakers if both
are fed through too much resistance.

I think the same applies to those of us with damaged hearing. Aren't we
the first to have troubled understanding conversation at a party in a
room with bad acoustics? Likewise, our ears are less able to
accommodate uneven speaker response.

I wear hearing aids, and have done so for about two years now. If I knew
they were this great, I would have gotten them ten years ago and saved
myself one million "Whaaaaaa?" 's.

For now, my hearing is so skewed that I don't remember what it is like to
hear clearly. So, I just want to have things fairly correct so that I have
an even chance of hearing things the best I can.

I have two JVC cabinet speakers, pretty good for their time. I would say
they are about 20 years old, but in very good condition.

Would I be ahead by taking these better speakers and putting them on the
smaller Magnavox system? Would it be advisable to use four speakers,
hooking two to each channel? I just want to listen to music at low levels,
but at least hear fairly close to what is being put out by the amp. The
unit has a graphic equalizer on it, so I can tweak it a bit.

For anyone with hearing problems, I cannot stress enough how much hearing
aids have helped me in so many ways.

Steve

SteveB wrote:

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...


SteveB wrote:

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...
David Martel wrote:

Steve,

Inexpensive 16 ga. "zip" cord from any hardware store makes good
speaker
wire. Really, really long runs of wire can affect the performance and
sound
but if you keep it under 100' you should be OK.

Dave M.

The problem is resonance. Many TVs have cabinets that resonate at
varous frequencies. The sound from internal speakers will be noisy and
distorted.

The resonance of a room can make a tape recording sound terrible. For
ten years I listened to Koss Pro4AA headphones to avoid the resonance
of
room acoustics. Those phones usually performed better than speakers.
In an ideal situation, good speakers could be better; the sound could
be
fuller and less harsh.

Then I read about damping factor. It was defined as the ratio between
speaker impedance and amplifier impedance. Feeding speakers with a
relatively low impedance can make a difference because speakers
resonate. They are more efficient at resonant frequencies, and their
impedance is proportionately higher.

My phones were 32 ohms, but receivers were usually designed to feed
headphones through 220 ohms. At frequencies where the impedance was 32
ohms, my phones would be getting 1/8 the voltage from the amplifier.
If, for example, they resonated at 500 and 2000 Hz and their impedance
rose to 220, they'd be getting 4 times more voltage, or half the amp's
voltage. In that case, feeding the phones through 220 ohms would make
500 and 2000 Hz harsh and other frequencies relatively weak.

It cost me only a few cents to change the circuit to a voltage divider
with an output impedance of 0.5 ohm. This meant the voltage at my
phones would be pretty constant for all audible frequencies. What a
difference! The phones were clearer, less harsh, and had a wider, more
even response.

I didn't have to go as low as 0.5 ohm. If I'd built a 3.2-ohm divider,
that would have given me a damping factor of 10 with my 32-ohm phones.
That would probably have been fine.

18-gage copper wire has 6.5 ohms per 1000 feet. If your speaker were
50
feet from the amp, that would be 100 feet of wire or 0.65 ohms. For a
6-ohm speaker, I imagine that would sound fine to most people.

28-gage copper has 66 ohms per 1000 feet. For a speaker 50 feet from
the amp, the resistance would be about the same as the impedance of a
6-ohm speaker. I imagine the difference would be audible.

18 gage sounds big enough for speakers 50 feet away, but the OP might
want to test it by hooking up one speaker through the wire he intends
to
use, then using to balance control to see if it still sounds as good as
the other speaker.

The insulation on zip cord usually has a ridge along one of the
conductors. That's how I keep my polarity straight with using it for
loudspeakers.

You're talking to someone with about forth percent hearing loss from
industrial noise, years of commercial diving (quick pressurizations,
decompression chambers, 305' exposures, and training chamber runs of
pressuring to 200' in forty seconds) and about seventeen too many ZZ Top
concerts. Good enough is good enough for me.

I can barely tell the difference between a .357 round and a fart.

Steve

When you opened this thread, you asked, "Will adding longer wire affect
the
sound?" Were you joking?

Some have said wire resistance doesn't matter with cheap speakers. I
think it matters more. Cheap speakers have worse resonance problems,
which means they will be more affected than expensive speakers if both
are fed through too much resistance.

I think the same applies to those of us with damaged hearing. Aren't we
the first to have troubled understanding conversation at a party in a
room with bad acoustics? Likewise, our ears are less able to
accommodate uneven speaker response.

I wear hearing aids, and have done so for about two years now. If I knew
they were this great, I would have gotten them ten years ago and saved
myself one million "Whaaaaaa?" 's.

For now, my hearing is so skewed that I don't remember what it is like to
hear clearly. So, I just want to have things fairly correct so that I have
an even chance of hearing things the best I can.

I have two JVC cabinet speakers, pretty good for their time. I would say
they are about 20 years old, but in very good condition.

They may soon need work. I have 4 hip-high EPIs and two smaller ones,
all about 20 years old. A year or two ago Louis Armstrong's cornet
started sounding scratchy and I found that the foam surrounds in the
four big woofers were crumbling from age. I replaced the foam for $40
plus my labor. Now I wonder how much longer the midrange surrounds will
last, and I haven't checked the little speakers.


Would I be ahead by taking these better speakers and putting them on the
smaller Magnavox system? Would it be advisable to use four speakers,
hooking two to each channel? I just want to listen to music at low levels,
but at least hear fairly close to what is being put out by the amp. The
unit has a graphic equalizer on it, so I can tweak it a bit.

For the best sound, I'd play the two better speakers alone. The other
speakers could be used to play in another room. If the amp output is
through a capacitor, running them at the same time will reduce bass
response. The increased current might blow the amp.


For anyone with hearing problems, I cannot stress enough how much hearing
aids have helped me in so many ways.

Steve

As a boy, I could hear a mosquito anywhere in the room. Later I served
on a ship with a winch that ran long hours at sea. It had been
converted from electric to hydraulic. The hydraulic lines brought a
very loud mosquito-like whine throughout the ship. I hated it. My
hearing was tested when I left. It was diminished in the 3k range. The
doctor said it was true for everyone aboard. After that, my ears
wouldn't warn me of the presence of a mosquito. I need to get a pet bat
for protection!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:31:47 -0400, Michael A. Ball
wrote:

Regarding "skin effect", I can't address the relationship between,
volume, clarity, amperes, resistance And the range of human hearing.
However, I do know that I'd rather run a powerful system through the
larger 10 gauge cable than through smaller 18 gauge wire. When I
die, I want to go where dogs go!


You can hear frequencies up to 50 kHz? :-)


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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 02:24:54 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"ebackhus" wrote in message
...

Any COPPER wire should do the job. For a more professional look
you can coat the ends with solder. It also makes stranded wiring
less of a hassle.

Not just any copper wire, it has to be oxygen free according to some
advertisements.

Silver wire would be cheaper in the long run... :-D


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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info