I replaced A/C in a rent house after a fire. Climate is extreme south
Louisiana. I completely rewired the house, reinsulated, didn't cut any
corners. Also had to replace all ceiling tiles because of water damage from
fire dept. (they did a great job saving the house).

The A/C and the electrical were the only things that my husband and I didn't
tackle ourselves. Painting, reconstruction and everything else, we did.
The house is a ranch style, 1800 sq. ft., fairly low pitch roof, with vents
in soffit, but no ridge vent or turbines.

When the A/C guy came I requested a duct with a higher insulation rating, I
asked for at least an R6 and I was told that the industry standard was an
R8.

Tenant shows me water spots in the ceiling tiles. Upon inspection, it is
where the duct tubing cross. Where they touch and cross, condensation
collects and then drips down to the insulation to the ceiling tiles.
Our temps lately have been hot, but mostly humid.
Any ideas?
Also, outside the compressor is producing more condensate than the previous
unit..the slab that the unit sits on has a permanent green slime. The
tenant changes the filter on a monthly basis, the thermostat is new,
digital, the house is comfortable to them at 76 degrees and they said the
bill hasn't changed or reflected an increase. The house doesn't feel muggy.

Perry

Increased condensation outside is a Good Thing.
The new unit is taking more water out of the air.
This lowers the humidity inside and makes it seem cooler.

I don't get a picture of "where it crosses".
What crosses what?
If condensation is in some spots only, look for breaks in insulation.
Seams that are un sealed for instance.

TB

Perry Templeton wrote:

I replaced A/C in a rent house after a fire. Climate is extreme south
Louisiana. I completely rewired the house, reinsulated, didn't cut any
corners. Also had to replace all ceiling tiles because of water damage from
fire dept. (they did a great job saving the house).

The A/C and the electrical were the only things that my husband and I didn't
tackle ourselves. Painting, reconstruction and everything else, we did.
The house is a ranch style, 1800 sq. ft., fairly low pitch roof, with vents
in soffit, but no ridge vent or turbines.

When the A/C guy came I requested a duct with a higher insulation rating, I
asked for at least an R6 and I was told that the industry standard was an
R8.

Tenant shows me water spots in the ceiling tiles. Upon inspection, it is
where the duct tubing cross. Where they touch and cross, condensation
collects and then drips down to the insulation to the ceiling tiles.
Our temps lately have been hot, but mostly humid.
Any ideas?
Also, outside the compressor is producing more condensate than the previous
unit..the slab that the unit sits on has a permanent green slime. The
tenant changes the filter on a monthly basis, the thermostat is new,
digital, the house is comfortable to them at 76 degrees and they said the
bill hasn't changed or reflected an increase. The house doesn't feel muggy.

Perry

If there is not too much water dripping inside I have seen large cheap aluminum
broiler pans used to catch the water, which eventually evaporates. Outside, see
if you can make a catch pan to divert and drain water away. BTW is it possible
the A/C installer can be convinced he should fix the problems?

Lou

"BTW is it possible
the A/C installer can be convinced he should fix the problems?"

I don't know where the problem lies. That's why I posted.

I was referring to where the ducts cross. Big tubes in the ceiling.
Perry
wrote in message ...
Perry Templeton wrote:

I replaced A/C in a rent house after a fire. Climate is extreme south
Louisiana. I completely rewired the house, reinsulated, didn't cut any
corners. Also had to replace all ceiling tiles because of water damage
from
fire dept. (they did a great job saving the house).

The A/C and the electrical were the only things that my husband and I
didn't
tackle ourselves. Painting, reconstruction and everything else, we did.
The house is a ranch style, 1800 sq. ft., fairly low pitch roof, with
vents
in soffit, but no ridge vent or turbines.

When the A/C guy came I requested a duct with a higher insulation rating,
I
asked for at least an R6 and I was told that the industry standard was an
R8.

Tenant shows me water spots in the ceiling tiles. Upon inspection, it is
where the duct tubing cross. Where they touch and cross, condensation
collects and then drips down to the insulation to the ceiling tiles.
Our temps lately have been hot, but mostly humid.
Any ideas?
Also, outside the compressor is producing more condensate than the
previous
unit..the slab that the unit sits on has a permanent green slime. The
tenant changes the filter on a monthly basis, the thermostat is new,
digital, the house is comfortable to them at 76 degrees and they said the
bill hasn't changed or reflected an increase. The house doesn't feel
muggy.

Perry

If there is not too much water dripping inside I have seen large cheap
aluminum
broiler pans used to catch the water, which eventually evaporates.
Outside, see
if you can make a catch pan to divert and drain water away. BTW is it
possible
the A/C installer can be convinced he should fix the problems?

Lou

"Perry Templeton" wrote in message
...
I replaced A/C in a rent house after a fire. Climate is extreme south
Louisiana. I completely rewired the house, reinsulated, didn't cut any
corners. Also had to replace all ceiling tiles because of water damage
from
fire dept. (they did a great job saving the house).

The A/C and the electrical were the only things that my husband and I
didn't
tackle ourselves. Painting, reconstruction and everything else, we did.
The house is a ranch style, 1800 sq. ft., fairly low pitch roof, with
vents
in soffit, but no ridge vent or turbines.

When the A/C guy came I requested a duct with a higher insulation rating,
I
asked for at least an R6 and I was told that the industry standard was an
R8.

Tenant shows me water spots in the ceiling tiles. Upon inspection, it is
where the duct tubing cross. Where they touch and cross, condensation
collects and then drips down to the insulation to the ceiling tiles.
Our temps lately have been hot, but mostly humid.
Any ideas?
Also, outside the compressor is producing more condensate than the
previous
unit..the slab that the unit sits on has a permanent green slime. The
tenant changes the filter on a monthly basis, the thermostat is new,
digital, the house is comfortable to them at 76 degrees and they said the
bill hasn't changed or reflected an increase. The house doesn't feel
muggy.

Perry

As a suggestion only cause it is impossible to know what is really
happening. Have the tenant put the fan to the ON mode. Run the fan 24 /7.
Condensate happens for a plethora of reasons. The duct insulation seams
could be exposed, usually not a big deal.
Time of high humidity and temps in the mid 70s your asking the a/c to remove
a lot of humidity. Which is exactly what I would do to be comfortable.

Show the problems to the contractor and ask for his help.

I suggest that you put some PVC on the drain out by the compressor and
divert the water into the lawn instead of the concrete. The slime might want
lunch some day. ( Feed ME,,, Little Shop of Horrors )

Setting the fan to will raise the relative humidity in the house 10 to
15%. Not a good idea. This is because the water on the indoor coil
and in the drain pan re-evaporates when the compressor shuts off.

The problem is that the surface of the duct is below the dew point of
the air in the attic. This happens when the surface of the duct is
shielded from the attic temperatures by another object, especially when
two supply ducts are in close proximity. air trapped between the ducts
is cooled below the dew point ans drips condensate. The best answer is
to use wide straps to support the ducts so they do not touch each other
or wood trusses or insulation in the attic. I have a formula to find
the surface temperature of the duct somewhere.

Stretch

The formula for the outside surface Temp of a duct is:

T(surface)= OAT- (OAT-IAT) * OSF/( ISF+DI+OSF)

T(surface) Is the outside surface temperature of the duct
OAT is the Outside Air Temperature, that is the air temperature the
outside of the duct is exposed to
IAT is the Inside Air Temperature, that is the supply air temperature
inside the duct
OSF is the Outside Surface Film (R-factor), that is the insulation
factor for a nearly still air film at the outside surface of the duct,
(usually about1.67 for shiny new duct)
ISF is the Inside Surface Film (R-factor, that is the insulation factor
for moving air at the inside surface of the duct (About R-0.2)
DI is the duct insulation R-factor, (about R-8 for your ducts), if the
contractor is being truthful

Run the formula to find the surface temperature of the duct. Note that
if the air is trapped in a pocket formed around the duct by contact
with other ducts or structure, yhe OAT can approach supply air
temperatures very closely. That is usually where the problems start.

The dew point of the attic air will be the same as for the outdoor air,
which you can get from the weather man or a Sling Psychrometer.



Stretch

Stretch wrote:

The formula for the outside surface Temp of a duct is:

T(surface)= OAT-(OAT-IAT)*OSF/(ISF+DI+OSF)

T(surface) Is the outside surface temperature of the duct
OAT is the Outside Air Temperature...
IAT is the Inside Air Temperature...
OSF is the Outside Surface Film (R-factor)... about 1.67 for shiny new duct
ISF is the Inside Surface Film (R-factor... About R-0.2
DI is the duct insulation R-factor, (about R-8 for your ducts)

OAT = 90 F and IAT = 40 F makes

T(surface) = 90-(90-40)*1.67/(0.2+8+1.67) = 81.54 F...

Like this, viewed in a fixed font:

T(surface)
|
ISF DI | OSF
IAT ---www---www------www--- OAT

---------------------
I

Heatflow I = (OAT-IAT)/(ISF+DI+OSF) = (90-40)/(0.2+8+1.67) = 5.066 Btu/h,
and T(surface) = OAT-I*OSF = 90-5.066x1.67 = 81.54 F.

Wrapping it all with R19 fiberglass insulation and poly film duct might
decrease I to 1.732 and raise T(surface) to 90-0.67x1.963 = 88.87, while
reducing the rate of condensation (if any) and saving energy. Exposing
ducts to more attic air ~~~wastes~~~ energy.

T(surface)
|
0.2 8 1.67 19 | 0.67
40 ---www---www---www---www------www--- 90

---------------------------------

I = (90-40)/(0.2+8+1.67+19+0.67) = 1.693 Btu/h

The dew point of the attic air will be the same as for the outdoor air,
which you can get from the weather man or a Sling Psychrometer.

Or Td = (460+OAT)/(1+(460+OAT)ln(RH/100)/9621)-460. For instance, 90 F air
with RH = 50% has Td = 550/(1+550ln(0.5)/9621)-460 = 69 F.

Nick

Nick,

I agree that exposing more surface of the duct to attic air will waste
some energy. But if you read the original post, he is having trouble
with ducts sweating, not a high electric bill. So I addressed HIS
problem.

You show a supply air temperature of 40 degrees. I have been measuring
supply duct temperatures for 30 years, and I have never seen one that
low. Normally 50 to 60 degrees, depending on air flow and return air
temperature. Most often around 55 degrees.

If you ran a supply air temperature that low, you would need special
controls to prevent evaporator coil freezing.
That low of a supply air temperature would definately increase heat
gain through the ducts and waste energy. Also, the capacity and
efficiency of the AC would go down.

We once modified a 25 ton chiller with a factory installed cold water
kit to run at 25 degrees chilled water temperature instead of 42
degrees chilled water temperature. We added about 50% glycol to the
chilled water. The capacity dropped from 25 tons to 10 tons. The
efficiency dropped also.

Stretch

"Perry Templeton" wrote in message
...
"BTW is it possible
the A/C installer can be convinced he should fix the problems?"

I don't know where the problem lies. That's why I posted.

I was referring to where the ducts cross. Big tubes in the ceiling.
Perry


Again, Where the ducts cross what? Each other? More ducts? Collar ties of
the rafters? WHAT?
Greg

Where the ducts cross each other.
The big silver tubes in the attic. One particular spot in question, the
duct tubing was criss crossed and where they made contact, it seemed to
create more condensate there.
Perry
"Greg O" wrote in message
...

"Perry Templeton" wrote in message
...
"BTW is it possible
the A/C installer can be convinced he should fix the problems?"

I don't know where the problem lies. That's why I posted.

I was referring to where the ducts cross. Big tubes in the ceiling.
Perry


Again, Where the ducts cross what? Each other? More ducts? Collar ties of
the rafters? WHAT?
Greg

Stretch wrote:

I agree that exposing more surface of the duct to attic air will waste
some energy. But if you read the original post, he is having trouble
with ducts sweating, not a high electric bill. So I addressed HIS
problem.

Adding more duct insulation seems like a better way to solve his problem.

Nick

Adding more duct insulation seems like a better way to solve his
problem.

Nick


If the duct is not dried out first, moisture will be trapped inside
between the vapor barriers, reducing the effectiveness of the
insulation and degrading it over time.

Stretch

Stretch wrote:

Adding more duct insulation seems like a better way to solve his problem.

If the duct is not dried out first, moisture will be trapped inside
between the vapor barriers, reducing the effectiveness of the
insulation and degrading it over time.

So make a pinhole in the duct.

Nick

wrote in message
...
Stretch wrote:

Adding more duct insulation seems like a better way to solve his problem.

If the duct is not dried out first, moisture will be trapped inside
between the vapor barriers, reducing the effectiveness of the
insulation and degrading it over time.

So make a pinhole in the duct.

That can create more condensation..




Nick

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

Stretch wrote:

Adding more duct insulation seems like a better way to solve his problem.

If the duct is not dried out first, moisture will be trapped inside
between the vapor barriers, reducing the effectiveness of the
insulation and degrading it over time.

So make a pinhole in the duct.

That can create more condensation..

Really? :-) How?

Nick

wrote in message
...
Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

Stretch wrote:

Adding more duct insulation seems like a better way to solve his
problem.

If the duct is not dried out first, moisture will be trapped inside
between the vapor barriers, reducing the effectiveness of the
insulation and degrading it over time.

So make a pinhole in the duct.

That can create more condensation..

Really? :-) How?

1-depends on your definition of a pinhole
2-cold air, hitting hot metalic duct liner= condensation

Ask me how I knwo this...lol....just had a call last week that I would have
bet my bottom dollar on looking it all over before gettin into the attic
space above the business' eating and serving area would have been a roof
leak after all the rain we had...
It was nothing more than where someone previously had inserted a thermometer
probe into the air duct (flex of course) and it was creating one hell of a
condensation issue....the duct of course was laying on the dropped ceiling
supports and when we finally located the hole (I know..sounds simple..had to
see the installation that was left) the owners could not believe it
either..


Nick

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

Adding more duct insulation seems like a better way to solve his problem.

If the duct is not dried out first, moisture will be trapped inside
between the vapor barriers, reducing the effectiveness of the
insulation and degrading it over time.

So make a pinhole in the duct.

That can create more condensation..

Really? :-) How?

1-depends on your definition of a pinhole

Well, I'm thinking the air inside the AC supply duct has a lot less
moisture than the air in the attic, so venting a tiny amount into
the surrounding space containing more insulation and a vapor barrier
around that would dry out any lingering trapped moisture that Stretch
might find a concern. It is a serious concern. Any leak in the final
vapor barrier could allow warm moist attic air to enter and condense
inside the new arrangement. One way to prevent that is to allow a bit
of conditioned air to leak out into the space surrounding the duct.
This is similar to a house with the vapor barrier on the inside and
more water vapor permeability outside of that.

2-cold air, hitting hot metalic duct liner= condensation

How would this scenario apply inside the new insulation and vapor barrier?

Ask me how I knwo this...lol....just had a call last week that I would have
bet my bottom dollar on looking it all over before gettin into the attic
space above the business' eating and serving area would have been a roof
leak after all the rain we had...
It was nothing more than where someone previously had inserted a thermometer
probe into the air duct (flex of course) and it was creating one hell of a
condensation issue....the duct of course was laying on the dropped ceiling
supports and when we finally located the hole (I know..sounds simple..had to
see the installation that was left) the owners could not believe it either..

Sounds like a different scenario...

Nick

Nick, if you make a hole in the duct so air cold leaks out, you will be
wasting energy! Also the cold leaking air will chill the inside of the
vapor barrier Because the insulation will not stop the air flow, only
act like a filter, which will chill the outside of the vapor barrier,
causing it to sweat. You are back to the original problem again. Now
the duct is sweating again, ruining the ceiling again. Seems like you
are going in circles.

In addition, I can see you have never actually worked on ducts in a
tight attic. Insulating with R-6 uses about 1.5 inch wrap. R-19 is
about another 4.5 inches. So if the duct is six inch, the outside of
the original duct with R-6 is 6" + 1.5" + 1.5" = 9" diameter. Now add
R-19 to that which is 10" more. (5" on the left side and 5" on the
right side.) Now the duct is 19" in diameter. Hope you have a BIG
attic. Especially when the duct gets to the register near the outside
wall where the roof slopes down to mneet the wall. I can just
visualize you laying in that rock wool insultion in the attic trying to
wrap that duct and getting all itchy. Then I visualize you falling
through the drywall ceiling. I hope you land on a nice soft couch
instead of the floor. If you had ever actually worked in a tight, hot
attic, laying in the insulation, You would not propose such a thing.

By the way, you are using duct wrap, are you not? Standard insulation
would not meet code when used to wrap a duct. Code also says to follow
manufacturer's instructions. If your R-19 bat is not listed for use on
ducts, you could get in trouble with the building inspector. The
thickest duct wrap I have seen is about 3", or R-8. 2.25" is rated
R-6. So R-19 DUCT WRAP would be more like 6.75".

This is rapidly getting out of hand. If you still think it is a good
idea, go up in a tight attic tomprrow with some R-6 duct wrap tomorrow
and put 3 layers on. Then you will see what hapens when theory meets
practice.

Stretch


In short

Stretch wrote:

Nick, if you make a hole in the duct so air cold leaks out, you will be
wasting energy!

Just a pinhole...

Nick

wrote in message
...
Stretch wrote:

Nick, if you make a hole in the duct so air cold leaks out, you will be
wasting energy!

Just a pinhole...

That pinhole, can indeed cause you to fail a blower door test....
yes....wasting energy...why do you think that ducts, installed correctly,
are sealed from start to finish?


Nick

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

That pinhole, can indeed cause you to fail a blower door test....

No way.

Nick

Nick, If you put in a hole so small it would not cause problems, it
would not do anything either. A pinhole will do nothing.
Stretch

wrote in message
...
Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

That pinhole, can indeed cause you to fail a blower door test....

No way.

Way...but then, you would have to be dealing with some real crappy install
anyway...


Nick

Stretch wrote:

Nick, If you put in a hole so small it would not cause problems, it
would not do anything either. A pinhole will do nothing.

Then why are we led to believe it will fail a blower door test? :-)

Nick

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

That pinhole, can indeed cause you to fail a blower door test....

No way.

Way...

Sure, with a 2' diameter pin :-)

Nick

wrote in message
...
Stretch wrote:

Nick, If you put in a hole so small it would not cause problems, it
would not do anything either. A pinhole will do nothing.

Then why are we led to believe it will fail a blower door test? :-)

Define "pinhole" :-)

Every leak adds to the drop, and yes, you can have one too many..
I mean, if its ok to have one, lets add another, it wont hurt anything.
While we are at it, hell, those 20 didnt add anything, but its sure getting
cooler up here....lets add another.
You also realize some of that Flex out there is so cheap that you can indeed
cause the inner duct to come apart when you pin hole it right?...

Nick

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

Stretch wrote:

Nick, If you put in a hole so small it would not cause problems, it
would not do anything either. A pinhole will do nothing.

Then why are we led to believe it will fail a blower door test? :-)

Define "pinhole" :-)

OK. A hole made by a pin. I just miked 5 pins out of a sewing drawer,
0.0256, 0.0252, 0.0288, 0.0252, and 0.0286" diameter.

Every leak adds to the drop, and yes, you can have one too many..
I mean, if its ok to have one, lets add another, it wont hurt anything.

You seem to know little about airflow or blower door tests...

An "airtight" 0.2 ACH house leaks about 4 ACH at 50 Pa, about
1280 cfm for a 2400ft^2x8' house. The measurement accuracy is
on the order of 100 cfm. So...

1. How much pressure is needed to make 100 cfm flow through a pinhole?

2. How many pinholes are needed for 100 cfm of airflow at 50 Pa?

3. How large must one "pinhole" be for 100 cfm of airflow at 50 Pa?

4. How large must it be to remove 2% moisture by weight (which halves
the R-value) from 40 ft^3 of fiberglas insulation in a month, with
45 F AC air at 100% RH flowing from 1" H20 duct pressure, if the
insulation is in an 85 F attic at 50% RH?

5. How much energy would it "waste," if combined with an extra R19 layer
of insulation, compared to exposing a 20' R8 duct to hot attic air?

Nick

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

Stretch wrote:

Nick, If you put in a hole so small it would not cause problems, it
would not do anything either. A pinhole will do nothing.

Then why are we led to believe it will fail a blower door test? :-)

Define "pinhole" :-)

OK. A hole made by a pin. I just miked 5 pins out of a sewing drawer,
0.0256, 0.0252, 0.0288, 0.0252, and 0.0286" diameter.

Every leak adds to the drop, and yes, you can have one too many..
I mean, if its ok to have one, lets add another, it wont hurt anything.

You seem to know little about airflow or blower door tests...

An "airtight" 0.2 ACH house leaks about 4 ACH at 50 Pa, about
1280 cfm for a 2400ft^2x8' house. The measurement accuracy is
on the order of 100 cfm. So...

1. How much pressure is needed to make 100 cfm flow through a pinhole?

If 10 cfm = 118Pi(0.025/2)^2sqrt(dP), dP = 30K psi :-)

2. How many pinholes are needed for 100 cfm of airflow at 50 Pa?

If dP = 0.00725 psi makes 1 pinhole leak Q=0.00491 cfm, 10/Q = 20,362.

3. How large must one "pinhole" be for 100 cfm of airflow at 50 Pa?

If 100 = 118Pi(D/2)^2sqrt(0.00725), D = 3.6", a large pin :-)

4. How large must it be to remove 2% moisture by weight (which halves
the R-value) from 40 ft^3 of fiberglas insulation

ie 40x0.5x0.02 = 0.4 pounds of water...

in a month, with 45 F AC air at 100% RH...

and wi = 0.0064, warming to 85 F at 100% RH (wd = 0.0267), so
60C0.075(wd-wi) = 0.09154C lb/h leaves the fiberglass, making
C = 0.4/(0.09154x30dx24h) = 0.006 cfm...

flowing from 1" H20 duct pressure...

with 0.006 = 118Pi(D/2)^2sqrt(0.0361), and D = 0.0186", a small pin :-)

5. How much energy would it "waste," if combined with an extra R19 layer
of insulation, compared to exposing a 20' R8 duct to hot attic air?

Using your numbers, a 6" x 20' duct with 31 ft^2 of surface would lose
24h(85-45)31ft^2/(R0.2+R8+R1.67) = 3015 Btu/day. The pinhole would lose
about 24h(85-45)0.006 = 6 Btu/day. The extra insulation would reduce
the duct loss to about 24h(85-45)31/(R0.2+R8+R19) = 1094 Btu/day, for
a net savings of 3015-(1094-6) = 1927 Btu/day, with the pinhole.

Nick