Location: Miami, Florida
Property location: About two miles from Atlantic Ocean, soil is sandy.
Property is single story, on monolithic concrete slab 8" thick. Via video
inspection determine line is broken about 5 feet inside from an exterior
wall probably directly under a cabinet in the kitchen, with no replacement
tiles available. The line is broken near an elbow so using a resin liner
solution is out. Had two drain company came out and both recommend tunnel
under house.

Roto-Rooter estimated $1800 excavation + $900 pipe repair. The $1800
excavation cost is based on a $180 per foot basis. Since the location is
around 5 feet in, they figured 4 feet deep, 5 feet in, and an extra foot for
manuever will add to 10 feet. However, if there is a footing to cause them
to dig deeper than originally thought (I am pretty sure there is), or they
hit the water table (yes they probably will...) or the location is not
pinned down and they have to dig further to find the break (and that may
happen too...), it will be however long they dig times $180. So I figure
conservative estimate will be to figure 20 feet, which will mean $3600 +
$900 = $4500. I asked them how they will back fill and they told me they
will put the original dirt back in and it should be OK. The digging will be
done manually. They did not say whether there will be any permit fee or
whether they will get a permit or not.

The AAA Rapid Rooter came by, and their estimate is totally different. They
told me their charge is $7500 minimum. Minimum meaning they don't run into
complications. I asked them what they included, and they told me it
included using a "vaccon" truck to dig the tunnel (not manual digging), they
add water and literally "suck" the sand out and form the tunnel, the actual
pipe repair, permit fee, engineer to come out to see the soil sample is
suitable for excavation of this nature, backfill with a truck shooting wet
sand (may mix some cement in) into the tunnel. The total will be $7500.
They will not provide an itemized breakdown since some clients used their
estimate to get insurance money but never do the job.

So drastically different approach. Machine digging with water versus manual
digging. Manual backfill with excavated dirt versus shooting compacted
sand. One job is about twice as the other.

Any ides which one is more "safe"? I have the feeling manual digging is
less damaging and involve less disturbance to the soil and can keep the
tunnel size smallest, is this right? But backfilling with the original dirt
concerns me. Not sure how you can backfill the void that is above the
footing back without some sort of pressurized method. Both are reputable
companies.

I am thinking one possibility would be to use Roto-Rooter to do the repair,
and see if they will come down on the price if I ask them NOT to back fill.
I will back fill myself and see if I can find a subcontractor that will do
the wet sand shooting back fill. But will this work? They can't pull the
permit if I am going to do part of the work myself?

Any advise?

MC

"miamicuse" wrote in message
...
Location: Miami, Florida
Property location: About two miles from Atlantic Ocean, soil is sandy.
Property is single story, on monolithic concrete slab 8" thick. Via video
inspection determine line is broken about 5 feet inside from an exterior
wall probably directly under a cabinet in the kitchen, with no replacement
tiles available. The line is broken near an elbow so using a resin liner
solution is out. Had two drain company came out and both recommend tunnel
under house.

Roto-Rooter estimated $1800 excavation + $900 pipe repair. The $1800
excavation cost is based on a $180 per foot basis. Since the location is
around 5 feet in, they figured 4 feet deep, 5 feet in, and an extra foot
for
manuever will add to 10 feet. However, if there is a footing to cause
them
to dig deeper than originally thought (I am pretty sure there is), or they
hit the water table (yes they probably will...) or the location is not
pinned down and they have to dig further to find the break (and that may
happen too...), it will be however long they dig times $180. So I figure
conservative estimate will be to figure 20 feet, which will mean $3600 +
$900 = $4500. I asked them how they will back fill and they told me they
will put the original dirt back in and it should be OK. The digging will
be
done manually. They did not say whether there will be any permit fee or
whether they will get a permit or not.

The AAA Rapid Rooter came by, and their estimate is totally different.
They
told me their charge is $7500 minimum. Minimum meaning they don't run
into
complications. I asked them what they included, and they told me it
included using a "vaccon" truck to dig the tunnel (not manual digging),
they
add water and literally "suck" the sand out and form the tunnel, the
actual
pipe repair, permit fee, engineer to come out to see the soil sample is
suitable for excavation of this nature, backfill with a truck shooting wet
sand (may mix some cement in) into the tunnel. The total will be $7500.
They will not provide an itemized breakdown since some clients used their
estimate to get insurance money but never do the job.

So drastically different approach. Machine digging with water versus
manual
digging. Manual backfill with excavated dirt versus shooting compacted
sand. One job is about twice as the other.

Any ides which one is more "safe"? I have the feeling manual digging is
less damaging and involve less disturbance to the soil and can keep the
tunnel size smallest, is this right? But backfilling with the original
dirt
concerns me. Not sure how you can backfill the void that is above the
footing back without some sort of pressurized method. Both are reputable
companies.

I am thinking one possibility would be to use Roto-Rooter to do the
repair,
and see if they will come down on the price if I ask them NOT to back
fill.
I will back fill myself and see if I can find a subcontractor that will do
the wet sand shooting back fill. But will this work? They can't pull the
permit if I am going to do part of the work myself?

Any advise?

MC

Yikes for that kind of money I would be on the phone to at least 20
contractors before I spent that much. Have you called any plumbers?

I tend to stay away from chain service organizations. Franchises are all
over the place when it comes to pricing in my experience.

Greetings,

This kind of crap ****es me off.

You are the home owner? If so you might be able to pull the permit
yourself. Then send me an e-mail and I can come down and "help" you do
it for $2500.00 (I have previously done work on my own lines). "We"
can even fill it back in with sand-cement. How will you feel when a
couple of guys work for not even a full day, two days tops, and you
hand them the $7500?

Good luck,
William

PS: I am sure some people will be infuriated by this e-mail. Believe
it or not plumbing is within the grasp of the mere mortal.

Do you have any suggestions as to the merit of either approach? They told
me the reason for the $7500 is due to the expensive equipment and they have
to factor in complications (like what if they run into a big coral rock when
they are tunneling etc...yeah right so they probably added the cost of coral
rock removal into the standard minimum contract LOL) regardless I need to
determine an approach then see if I can get reasonable prices. Regular
plumbers just don't have the equipment they have.

MC

" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

This kind of crap ****es me off.

You are the home owner? If so you might be able to pull the permit
yourself. Then send me an e-mail and I can come down and "help" you do
it for $2500.00 (I have previously done work on my own lines). "We"
can even fill it back in with sand-cement. How will you feel when a
couple of guys work for not even a full day, two days tops, and you
hand them the $7500?

Good luck,
William

PS: I am sure some people will be infuriated by this e-mail. Believe
it or not plumbing is within the grasp of the mere mortal.

I did call a few plumbers and one suggested the resin liner approach, but
then I paid them $500 for the video inspection turned out it is near an
elbow so no luck.

I had three plumbers came by and they said they can open up a hole inside to
do the work, but the location is "approximate" and not exact. So a hole
minimum 36"x36" below the cabinets will not work. Because of the break the
pipe section there is "pitched backwards" so it is always submerged with
water, therefore it is very difficult to tell how the pipe run. Did it make
a 90 degree angle there, or was it a 45 + 45, and that changes where the
location is exactly. The plumber gave me an estimate of $2000 to fix it
from the kitchen. I am then responsible to redo the concrete and tiles
anyways.

So I am trying to find the best approach for the tunneling method.

MC

"SQLit" wrote in message
...

"miamicuse" wrote in message
...
Location: Miami, Florida
Property location: About two miles from Atlantic Ocean, soil is sandy.
Property is single story, on monolithic concrete slab 8" thick. Via
video
inspection determine line is broken about 5 feet inside from an exterior
wall probably directly under a cabinet in the kitchen, with no
replacement
tiles available. The line is broken near an elbow so using a resin
liner
solution is out. Had two drain company came out and both recommend
tunnel
under house.

Roto-Rooter estimated $1800 excavation + $900 pipe repair. The $1800
excavation cost is based on a $180 per foot basis. Since the location
is
around 5 feet in, they figured 4 feet deep, 5 feet in, and an extra foot
for
manuever will add to 10 feet. However, if there is a footing to cause
them
to dig deeper than originally thought (I am pretty sure there is), or
they
hit the water table (yes they probably will...) or the location is not
pinned down and they have to dig further to find the break (and that may
happen too...), it will be however long they dig times $180. So I
figure
conservative estimate will be to figure 20 feet, which will mean $3600 +
$900 = $4500. I asked them how they will back fill and they told me
they
will put the original dirt back in and it should be OK. The digging
will
be
done manually. They did not say whether there will be any permit fee or
whether they will get a permit or not.

The AAA Rapid Rooter came by, and their estimate is totally different.
They
told me their charge is $7500 minimum. Minimum meaning they don't run
into
complications. I asked them what they included, and they told me it
included using a "vaccon" truck to dig the tunnel (not manual digging),
they
add water and literally "suck" the sand out and form the tunnel, the
actual
pipe repair, permit fee, engineer to come out to see the soil sample is
suitable for excavation of this nature, backfill with a truck shooting
wet
sand (may mix some cement in) into the tunnel. The total will be $7500.
They will not provide an itemized breakdown since some clients used
their
estimate to get insurance money but never do the job.

So drastically different approach. Machine digging with water versus
manual
digging. Manual backfill with excavated dirt versus shooting compacted
sand. One job is about twice as the other.

Any ides which one is more "safe"? I have the feeling manual digging is
less damaging and involve less disturbance to the soil and can keep the
tunnel size smallest, is this right? But backfilling with the original
dirt
concerns me. Not sure how you can backfill the void that is above the
footing back without some sort of pressurized method. Both are
reputable
companies.

I am thinking one possibility would be to use Roto-Rooter to do the
repair,
and see if they will come down on the price if I ask them NOT to back
fill.
I will back fill myself and see if I can find a subcontractor that will
do
the wet sand shooting back fill. But will this work? They can't pull
the
permit if I am going to do part of the work myself?

Any advise?

MC

Yikes for that kind of money I would be on the phone to at least 20
contractors before I spent that much. Have you called any plumbers?

I tend to stay away from chain service organizations. Franchises are all
over the place when it comes to pricing in my experience.

Greetings,

It looks like the cheapest method might be through the kitchen. Hire a
big dude with a shovel to dig down to the break starting under the
cabinets. You might get lucky or be able to hollow out the hole under
the floor enough to access the broken pipe.

This is a 4'8" deep hole my guy dug for me with a spoon. I hold him
in highest regard. Imagine what a plumber would have charged and how
much more sidewalk he would have destroyed.

http://www.universityofsavanna.com/f...ain/index.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/ccmtn

Once you can work on the pipe have plumbers over for the estimate. I
bet the work is $1000 or less. Have the same man who dug the hole fill
it in MAKEING SURE HE COMPACTS the dirt as he goes. Pour a few bags of
concrete under the cabinets and you are done.

Hope this helps,
William

PS: I was serious about my offer.

miamicuse wrote:
Do you have any suggestions as to the merit of either approach? They told
me the reason for the $7500 is due to the expensive equipment and they have
to factor in complications (like what if they run into a big coral rock when
they are tunneling etc...yeah right so they probably added the cost of coral
rock removal into the standard minimum contract LOL) regardless I need to
determine an approach then see if I can get reasonable prices. Regular
plumbers just don't have the equipment they have.

MC

" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

This kind of crap ****es me off.

You are the home owner? If so you might be able to pull the permit
yourself. Then send me an e-mail and I can come down and "help" you do
it for $2500.00 (I have previously done work on my own lines). "We"
can even fill it back in with sand-cement. How will you feel when a
couple of guys work for not even a full day, two days tops, and you
hand them the $7500?

Good luck,
William

PS: I am sure some people will be infuriated by this e-mail. Believe
it or not plumbing is within the grasp of the mere mortal.