We're building a new deck, and yesterday I removed the old ledger board from
the old deck and to my horor, discovered that for years, water had been
seeping between this board and the rim joist on the house, and the rim joist
is now badly rotted. In fact, there's about a 12-18" section that is all
but not there now, once I poked many holes through it with my finger...

So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little info I
found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the floor
joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's parallel
to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's a
split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist and
the block foundation below.

My questions a

a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it out
and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right over
the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since I'm
over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header plate
like you'd expect if it were load bearing.

b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly during
this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside are
finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the framing
members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
slightly bigger one...

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I"d like to (at least start to) tackle
this project today, so any info I can get ASAP would be wonderful.

-Tim

P.S. By the way, I'm pretty handy with repairs and with a hammer -- just
never had to tackle anything of this nature before (and hopefully won't
anytime soon after this!

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...
We're building a new deck, and yesterday I removed the old ledger board
from
the old deck and to my horor, discovered that for years, water had been
seeping between this board and the rim joist on the house, and the rim
joist
is now badly rotted. In fact, there's about a 12-18" section that is all
but not there now, once I poked many holes through it with my finger...

So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little info
I
found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the floor
joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's
parallel
to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's a
split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist
and
the block foundation below.

My questions a

a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it out
and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right
over
the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since
I'm
over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header
plate
like you'd expect if it were load bearing.

b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly
during
this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside
are
finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the
framing
members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
slightly bigger one...

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I"d like to (at least start to) tackle
this project today, so any info I can get ASAP would be wonderful.

-Tim

P.S. By the way, I'm pretty handy with repairs and with a hammer -- just
never had to tackle anything of this nature before (and hopefully won't
anytime soon after this!

Me thinks you need a pro to guide you.

I would only be guessing at a solution. I bet your going to be jacking the
house up to replace the rotted timber.

In article , "SQLit" wrote:

Me thinks you need a pro to guide you.

I would only be guessing at a solution. I bet your going to be jacking the
house up to replace the rotted timber.

Concur with that - and suggest using treated lumber as the replacement, to
avoid a recurrence five years down the road.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"SQLit" wrote in message
...

Me thinks you need a pro to guide you.

I would only be guessing at a solution. I bet your going to be jacking
the
house up to replace the rotted timber.

I'm not even sure what type of a pro you'd call for such a thing. And I
envision it to be very expensive, not so much because it's difficult, but
because it's labor intensive.

I'd be very open to hiring someone to come out and consult me and then let
me do the work, if I could find such a person. But we really don't have an
extra $2-3K in the budget right now to cover this little "surprise" and have
it fully done. We're building the new deck ourselves, and this would just
about double the cost of it.

Can anyone answer the following questions:

a) On the gable side of a split-entry house, to what degree are the framing
members load bearing? It would seem like if this was bearing major weight
that it would be resting on something a little more solid than a single 2x4
top plate (for what it's worth, the 2x4 is also rotted out and needs to be
replaced).

b) Is a 2x10" rim joist in this application a "spanning" member, or does it
simply rest on the wall below? That is, can I cut out a chunk and replace
it, or does the entire span (from side of the house to the center steel
support, presumably) need replacing?

c) Again in this application, can I safely remove a 2-3' chunk of rim joist
and replace it without jacking? There doen't seem to be many loads here on
the gable side -- there's absolutely no noticable sagging with the 1-2'
rotten chunk now... If I do need to jack, how what do I jack against? I'm
partially under a patio door, but I'd envision attaching a temporary
horizontal member to the framing studs of the house, and jacking between
that and the ground from the exterior? (Again, I'm parallel to the floor
joists, not perp to it).

d) Once again, my new deck will be supported by this member (actually, if
I'd just replace the damaged chunk, it would be replaced mostly by the old,
non-rotten portions of the original member, and just a 2-3' chunk of
replacement). So everything will need to be engineered so the deck will be
properly supported.

Rest assured I'm pretty good at knowing when I'm over my head -- but I"m
looking for specific details here. Upon hearing how it's done, I'm capable
of realizing if I'll need to call in the pros or not. But for now, I'm
simply asking "how would the pros do it"? I do appreciate the sentiments
that I should just call a pro, but now that we've got that covered twice
over, I'd appreciate it if all future replies can stick to the questions at
hand, and any other project specific details.

Thanks!
-Tim

snipped
So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little info
I
found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the floor
joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's
parallel
to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's a
split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist
and
the block foundation below.

So how long is this wall? The short wall has only a single 2x4 becuase your
rim joist(s?) is bearing the weight. And how long is the total span? And
is this a single joist? Not two 2x12's? Are your floor joists running the
entire width of the house, or do you have posts in the basement?

a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it out
and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right
over
the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since
I'm
over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header
plate
like you'd expect if it were load bearing.
b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly
during
this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside
are
finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the
framing
members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
slightly bigger one...

I'm no structural engineer, but my guess is that the rim joist is load
bearing over that short wall. I'm anal, so what I would do is put in new
studs under where you're going to replace the damaged section, just like you
would a header over a new window. So, you're essentially turning a single
load bearing joist/beam into three, with additional studs under the points
where you have to cut the joist, know what I mean? I know this means
removing a potentially large section of wall, but that vinyl siding is easy
to remove and replace. It shouldn't take you long.

What you could do for support is pull off a couple of rows of siding above
the rim joist, then lag bolt a temporary 2x12 to the studs that surround the
area you'll be replacing, then jack up that 2x12 from the outside. make
sense?

Also, when you put on the new deck a good idea is to shim the new ledger out
a bit. Cut some treated 1/4"(or less) strips to use where you'll bolt your
ledger onto the house. Inevitably, water will get behind the deck ledger,
this space will allow for better drainage. Don't forget the new layer of
tar paper over your new rim joist area, then good flashing over the new
ledger as well.

And, of course, you shouldn't listen to any of us. You should call a pro who
can see it with his/her own eyes

Tim

You could call the city you're in and have an engineer come out to take a
look.

That way, you're paying someone to tell you how to fix it, not to DO the
fix.

Tim


"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...

"SQLit" wrote in message
...

Me thinks you need a pro to guide you.

I would only be guessing at a solution. I bet your going to be jacking
the
house up to replace the rotted timber.

I'm not even sure what type of a pro you'd call for such a thing. And I
envision it to be very expensive, not so much because it's difficult, but
because it's labor intensive.

I'd be very open to hiring someone to come out and consult me and then let
me do the work, if I could find such a person. But we really don't have
an
extra $2-3K in the budget right now to cover this little "surprise" and
have
it fully done. We're building the new deck ourselves, and this would just
about double the cost of it.

Can anyone answer the following questions:

a) On the gable side of a split-entry house, to what degree are the
framing
members load bearing? It would seem like if this was bearing major weight
that it would be resting on something a little more solid than a single
2x4
top plate (for what it's worth, the 2x4 is also rotted out and needs to be
replaced).

b) Is a 2x10" rim joist in this application a "spanning" member, or does
it
simply rest on the wall below? That is, can I cut out a chunk and replace
it, or does the entire span (from side of the house to the center steel
support, presumably) need replacing?

c) Again in this application, can I safely remove a 2-3' chunk of rim
joist
and replace it without jacking? There doen't seem to be many loads here
on
the gable side -- there's absolutely no noticable sagging with the 1-2'
rotten chunk now... If I do need to jack, how what do I jack against?
I'm
partially under a patio door, but I'd envision attaching a temporary
horizontal member to the framing studs of the house, and jacking between
that and the ground from the exterior? (Again, I'm parallel to the floor
joists, not perp to it).

d) Once again, my new deck will be supported by this member (actually, if
I'd just replace the damaged chunk, it would be replaced mostly by the
old,
non-rotten portions of the original member, and just a 2-3' chunk of
replacement). So everything will need to be engineered so the deck will
be
properly supported.

Rest assured I'm pretty good at knowing when I'm over my head -- but I"m
looking for specific details here. Upon hearing how it's done, I'm
capable
of realizing if I'll need to call in the pros or not. But for now, I'm
simply asking "how would the pros do it"? I do appreciate the sentiments
that I should just call a pro, but now that we've got that covered twice
over, I'd appreciate it if all future replies can stick to the questions
at
hand, and any other project specific details.

Thanks!
-Tim

So how long is this wall? The short wall has only a single 2x4 becuase
your
rim joist(s?) is bearing the weight. And how long is the total span? And
is this a single joist? Not two 2x12's? Are your floor joists running
the
entire width of the house, or do you have posts in the basement?

There is a large steel member that runs down the center of the house. Based
on the looks of the finished lower level, I think there is a single post
supporting this steel beam, aside from the sides of the house. The wall in
question is about 26' long, with the steel in the center. It's a single
joist - 2x10". House was built in 1980, in case that's relavant.

I'm no structural engineer, but my guess is that the rim joist is load
bearing over that short wall.

That's my concern. If I knew it definitely *wasn't* then I'd feel very
comfortable doing the repair.

I'm anal, so what I would do is put in new (snip)

That sounds like a decent plan, but as usual, there are complications.

I've posted 2 pictures of the situation:
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/...k/deckrot1.jpg
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/...k/deckrot2.jpg

As you can see, the rotted section is directly below the left edge of the
patio door (and it's supporting jack/king studs), and also above a window
below. Unless I replace the entire section under the patio door and to the
right of the window below, I'd have to presumably do some pretty hefty
beefing up of the window header so it could support the weight of the joist
(and deck) above.

What you could do for support is pull off a couple of rows of siding above
the rim joist, then lag bolt a temporary 2x12 to the studs that surround
the
area you'll be replacing, then jack up that 2x12 from the outside. make
sense?

Makes sense, except for the patio door. I'm assuming I can probably jack on
both sides of it, ignoring the span of the door itself, since the structure
above it is supported by a header? What size jacks would you recommend for
this? Would standard screw jaks ala Home Depot work, or should I rent some
beefier ones?

Also, when you put on the new deck a good idea is to shim the new ledger
out
a bit. Cut some treated 1/4"(or less) strips to use where you'll bolt
your
ledger onto the house. Inevitably, water will get behind the deck ledger,
this space will allow for better drainage. Don't forget the new layer of
tar paper over your new rim joist area, then good flashing over the new
ledger as well.

That makes sense, as long as it doesn't violate any codes.

And, of course, you shouldn't listen to any of us. You should call a pro
who
can see it with his/her own eyes

Point taken. Like I said, I'm open to any advice on who to call for
something like this -- even just to get an estimate. But aside from $$$'s
being a concern, I currently have an open sore in the side of the house and
it's been pretty rainy lately -- so I'd like to tackle this very quickly
(aside from me wanting to resume my plans to work on the deck itself...)

Thanks bunches, hope the pics and further detail help diagnose this problem.
I'm also asking lots of questions just so I don't assume (and miss)
something - I hope it isn't making me look woefully ignorant.

-Tim

Check the electric outlet and the left edge of the door frame and sill, it
is noticeable that your rot is right beneath these two items, sounds like
they may be leaking water behind the sheathing and onto your joist and top
plate. Your deck ledger board may be innocent as I don't see damage further
along. It is good insurance to eliminate all sources of water intrusion.

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...
We're building a new deck, and yesterday I removed the old ledger board
from
the old deck and to my horor, discovered that for years, water had been
seeping between this board and the rim joist on the house, and the rim
joist
is now badly rotted. In fact, there's about a 12-18" section that is all
but not there now, once I poked many holes through it with my finger...

So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little info
I
found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the floor
joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's
parallel
to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's a
split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist
and
the block foundation below.

My questions a

a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it out
and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right
over
the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since
I'm
over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header
plate
like you'd expect if it were load bearing.

b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly
during
this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside
are
finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the
framing
members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
slightly bigger one...

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I"d like to (at least start to) tackle
this project today, so any info I can get ASAP would be wonderful.

-Tim

P.S. By the way, I'm pretty handy with repairs and with a hammer -- just
never had to tackle anything of this nature before (and hopefully won't
anytime soon after this!

I'm pretty sure the door frame is to blame, compounded with the fact that
there was no proper flashing on the deck ledger, and further compounded by
the fact that when the previous owner resided, they just cut around the old
siding (hardboard crap) and put vinyl around it, -- they seem to have
flashed the majority of it ok but just calked at the seams, and that, I
believe, is what caused this. Although it could have been an older problem
yet -- the siding is less than 5 years old -- can this much damage happen in
5 years?

The wood underneath the door is all crap too. Eventually I want to replace
this door -- for now I'll probably just shore it up and seal it like
crazy...

-Tim

"Eric Tonks" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
anews.com...
Check the electric outlet and the left edge of the door frame and sill, it
is noticeable that your rot is right beneath these two items, sounds like
they may be leaking water behind the sheathing and onto your joist and top
plate. Your deck ledger board may be innocent as I don't see damage
further
along. It is good insurance to eliminate all sources of water intrusion.

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...
We're building a new deck, and yesterday I removed the old ledger board
from
the old deck and to my horor, discovered that for years, water had been
seeping between this board and the rim joist on the house, and the rim
joist
is now badly rotted. In fact, there's about a 12-18" section that is
all
but not there now, once I poked many holes through it with my finger...

So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little
info
I
found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the
floor
joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's
parallel
to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's
a
split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist
and
the block foundation below.

My questions a

a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it
out
and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right
over
the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since
I'm
over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header
plate
like you'd expect if it were load bearing.

b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly
during
this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside
are
finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the
framing
members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
slightly bigger one...

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I"d like to (at least start to)
tackle
this project today, so any info I can get ASAP would be wonderful.

-Tim

P.S. By the way, I'm pretty handy with repairs and with a hammer --
just
never had to tackle anything of this nature before (and hopefully won't
anytime soon after this!

Tim


There are some experienced professionals on this newsgroup. But
they can't work with your inadequate descriptions of your problem.

Post several pictures of the problem also showing the structural
details of your house and you will get some valuable advice from the
professionals.

JimL







On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:51:42 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:


"SQLit" wrote in message
...

Me thinks you need a pro to guide you.

I would only be guessing at a solution. I bet your going to be jacking
the
house up to replace the rotted timber.

I'm not even sure what type of a pro you'd call for such a thing. And I
envision it to be very expensive, not so much because it's difficult, but
because it's labor intensive.

I'd be very open to hiring someone to come out and consult me and then let
me do the work, if I could find such a person. But we really don't have an
extra $2-3K in the budget right now to cover this little "surprise" and have
it fully done. We're building the new deck ourselves, and this would just
about double the cost of it.

Can anyone answer the following questions:

a) On the gable side of a split-entry house, to what degree are the framing
members load bearing? It would seem like if this was bearing major weight
that it would be resting on something a little more solid than a single 2x4
top plate (for what it's worth, the 2x4 is also rotted out and needs to be
replaced).

b) Is a 2x10" rim joist in this application a "spanning" member, or does it
simply rest on the wall below? That is, can I cut out a chunk and replace
it, or does the entire span (from side of the house to the center steel
support, presumably) need replacing?

c) Again in this application, can I safely remove a 2-3' chunk of rim joist
and replace it without jacking? There doen't seem to be many loads here on
the gable side -- there's absolutely no noticable sagging with the 1-2'
rotten chunk now... If I do need to jack, how what do I jack against? I'm
partially under a patio door, but I'd envision attaching a temporary
horizontal member to the framing studs of the house, and jacking between
that and the ground from the exterior? (Again, I'm parallel to the floor
joists, not perp to it).

d) Once again, my new deck will be supported by this member (actually, if
I'd just replace the damaged chunk, it would be replaced mostly by the old,
non-rotten portions of the original member, and just a 2-3' chunk of
replacement). So everything will need to be engineered so the deck will be
properly supported.

Rest assured I'm pretty good at knowing when I'm over my head -- but I"m
looking for specific details here. Upon hearing how it's done, I'm capable
of realizing if I'll need to call in the pros or not. But for now, I'm
simply asking "how would the pros do it"? I do appreciate the sentiments
that I should just call a pro, but now that we've got that covered twice
over, I'd appreciate it if all future replies can stick to the questions at
hand, and any other project specific details.

Thanks!
-Tim

Very nice pictures.

I am currently working on a similar problem on my house but mine is
caused by termites. I'm replacing several studs and headers so my
house don't fall down. I have a wide triple window unit that has to
go as I've lost a great deal of structural integrity in the area.
I'm replacing the wide (36 inch) windows with 28 inch windows and
adding new treated studs between each the three windws and on the
outer edges.

You need to do the same. Starting from your foundation, build a
structurally sound pillar (2 2x4 treated studs nailed and glued
together) going all the way to your roof, replacing the single windows
with two windows, one on each side of this new pillar.




On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:37:33 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:

So how long is this wall? The short wall has only a single 2x4 becuase
your
rim joist(s?) is bearing the weight. And how long is the total span? And
is this a single joist? Not two 2x12's? Are your floor joists running
the
entire width of the house, or do you have posts in the basement?

There is a large steel member that runs down the center of the house. Based
on the looks of the finished lower level, I think there is a single post
supporting this steel beam, aside from the sides of the house. The wall in
question is about 26' long, with the steel in the center. It's a single
joist - 2x10". House was built in 1980, in case that's relavant.

I'm no structural engineer, but my guess is that the rim joist is load
bearing over that short wall.

That's my concern. If I knew it definitely *wasn't* then I'd feel very
comfortable doing the repair.

I'm anal, so what I would do is put in new (snip)

That sounds like a decent plan, but as usual, there are complications.

I've posted 2 pictures of the situation:
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/...k/deckrot1.jpg
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/...k/deckrot2.jpg

As you can see, the rotted section is directly below the left edge of the
patio door (and it's supporting jack/king studs), and also above a window
below. Unless I replace the entire section under the patio door and to the
right of the window below, I'd have to presumably do some pretty hefty
beefing up of the window header so it could support the weight of the joist
(and deck) above.

What you could do for support is pull off a couple of rows of siding above
the rim joist, then lag bolt a temporary 2x12 to the studs that surround
the
area you'll be replacing, then jack up that 2x12 from the outside. make
sense?

Makes sense, except for the patio door. I'm assuming I can probably jack on
both sides of it, ignoring the span of the door itself, since the structure
above it is supported by a header? What size jacks would you recommend for
this? Would standard screw jaks ala Home Depot work, or should I rent some
beefier ones?

Also, when you put on the new deck a good idea is to shim the new ledger
out
a bit. Cut some treated 1/4"(or less) strips to use where you'll bolt
your
ledger onto the house. Inevitably, water will get behind the deck ledger,
this space will allow for better drainage. Don't forget the new layer of
tar paper over your new rim joist area, then good flashing over the new
ledger as well.

That makes sense, as long as it doesn't violate any codes.

And, of course, you shouldn't listen to any of us. You should call a pro
who
can see it with his/her own eyes

Point taken. Like I said, I'm open to any advice on who to call for
something like this -- even just to get an estimate. But aside from $$$'s
being a concern, I currently have an open sore in the side of the house and
it's been pretty rainy lately -- so I'd like to tackle this very quickly
(aside from me wanting to resume my plans to work on the deck itself...)

Thanks bunches, hope the pics and further detail help diagnose this problem.
I'm also asking lots of questions just so I don't assume (and miss)
something - I hope it isn't making me look woefully ignorant.

-Tim

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...

"SQLit" wrote in message
...

Me thinks you need a pro to guide you.

I would only be guessing at a solution. I bet your going to be jacking
the
house up to replace the rotted timber.

I'm not even sure what type of a pro you'd call for such a thing. And I
envision it to be very expensive, not so much because it's difficult, but
because it's labor intensive.

I'd be very open to hiring someone to come out and consult me and then let
me do the work, if I could find such a person. But we really don't have
an
extra $2-3K in the budget right now to cover this little "surprise" and
have
it fully done. We're building the new deck ourselves, and this would just
about double the cost of it.

Can anyone answer the following questions:

a) On the gable side of a split-entry house, to what degree are the
framing
members load bearing? It would seem like if this was bearing major weight
that it would be resting on something a little more solid than a single
2x4
top plate (for what it's worth, the 2x4 is also rotted out and needs to be
replaced).

b) Is a 2x10" rim joist in this application a "spanning" member, or does
it
simply rest on the wall below? That is, can I cut out a chunk and replace
it, or does the entire span (from side of the house to the center steel
support, presumably) need replacing?

c) Again in this application, can I safely remove a 2-3' chunk of rim
joist
and replace it without jacking? There doen't seem to be many loads here
on
the gable side -- there's absolutely no noticable sagging with the 1-2'
rotten chunk now... If I do need to jack, how what do I jack against?
I'm
partially under a patio door, but I'd envision attaching a temporary
horizontal member to the framing studs of the house, and jacking between
that and the ground from the exterior? (Again, I'm parallel to the floor
joists, not perp to it).

d) Once again, my new deck will be supported by this member (actually, if
I'd just replace the damaged chunk, it would be replaced mostly by the
old,
non-rotten portions of the original member, and just a 2-3' chunk of
replacement). So everything will need to be engineered so the deck will
be
properly supported.

Rest assured I'm pretty good at knowing when I'm over my head -- but I"m
looking for specific details here. Upon hearing how it's done, I'm
capable
of realizing if I'll need to call in the pros or not. But for now, I'm
simply asking "how would the pros do it"? I do appreciate the sentiments
that I should just call a pro, but now that we've got that covered twice
over, I'd appreciate it if all future replies can stick to the questions
at
hand, and any other project specific details.

Thanks!
-Tim

A general contractor would be who I would call.

As a suggestion forget about the deck until the structure is sound. Anything
else is fool hearty in my mind. But then again I can not see the area your
talking about.

Tim Fischer wrote:
snipola
That sounds like a decent plan, but as usual, there are complications.

I've posted 2 pictures of the situation:
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/...k/deckrot1.jpg
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/...k/deckrot2.jpg

Assume it's structural, plase a temporary beam just inside the wall and
use some jacks (common ones will do fine) to take the load. I've never
done this, but what I've read in Finehomebuilding (which covers a related
topic in this months decks issue, you should give it a read) indicates
that it's easy to get carried away and cause all manner of cracks in the
drywall. Cut out the entire half of the joist (from edge of house to
center beam) and replace it.

Strip the siding up further and make absolutely certain that the sliding
door is flashed correctly . And strip down to see how far the damage to
the sheathing/studs has gone in the bottom wall.



John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Mean People Suck - It takes two deviations to get cool.
Ask me about joining the NRA.

An update -- I removed more of the siding/sheathing, and along with lots of
water damage from the damaged area all the way to the foundation, I found
that the short wall actually **is** a double top plate, so I am now much
more comfortable in thinking this is a load-bearing wall. It was so rotted
out that I thought the second board was a nailer for the inside finishing
surfaces, but is indeed supposed to be two 2x4 top plates.

One additional complication -- if I were to replace the joist all the way to
the corner, this would require removing all siding on BOTH sides of the
corner, as the corner piece (not sure what it's called) is attached under
the siding, and this would have to be removed. Yuck.

My current theory is (much of this borrowed from an article in the Feb/Mar
2002 Fine Homebuilding, which I found this morning at the library):

1) bolt a temporary 2x10 above the patio door (after removing some siding)
using 2 1/2" lag screws per stud.
2) Rent a couple of sufficient (10 ton?) jacks to ease the load on the
members
3) Cut out the damaged joist and top plate (approx 4-6' section, depending
on how much I cut out)
4) Add significant new supports between concrete foundation and new members
6) Let the jacks down and put all the siding back.

Does this sound like a reasonable solution? Is there anything special I
need to do to keep the repaired joists from twisting under the loads (both
from the house and from the new deck? I only have access from the
outside...

-Tim

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...
We're building a new deck, and yesterday I removed the old ledger board
from
the old deck and to my horor, discovered that for years, water had been
seeping between this board and the rim joist on the house, and the rim
joist
is now badly rotted. In fact, there's about a 12-18" section that is all
but not there now, once I poked many holes through it with my finger...

So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little info
I
found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the floor
joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's
parallel
to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's a
split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist
and
the block foundation below.

My questions a

a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it out
and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right
over
the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since
I'm
over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header
plate
like you'd expect if it were load bearing.

b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly
during
this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside
are
finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the
framing
members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
slightly bigger one...

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I"d like to (at least start to) tackle
this project today, so any info I can get ASAP would be wonderful.

-Tim

P.S. By the way, I'm pretty handy with repairs and with a hammer -- just
never had to tackle anything of this nature before (and hopefully won't
anytime soon after this!

An alternative plan, which would be much much easier if it were ok, would be
to:

1) bolt a temporary 2x10 above the damaged area, to the left of the patio
board. using 2 1/2" lag screws per stud. The theory would be that even
though some damaged area would be removed under the door, that the header of
the door would carry the weight and as long as this board were secured into
the jack studs, all would be well
2) Rent a single 10 ton jack to ease the load, jacking against this board
3) Cut out the damaged joist and top plate (approx 4-6' section, depending
on how much I cut out)
4) Add significant new supports between concrete foundation and new members
5) Let the jack down and put all the siding back.

(not sure why I skipped step 5 in my last post)

-Tim

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...
An update -- I removed more of the siding/sheathing, and along with lots
of
water damage from the damaged area all the way to the foundation, I found
that the short wall actually **is** a double top plate, so I am now much
more comfortable in thinking this is a load-bearing wall. It was so
rotted
out that I thought the second board was a nailer for the inside finishing
surfaces, but is indeed supposed to be two 2x4 top plates.

One additional complication -- if I were to replace the joist all the way
to
the corner, this would require removing all siding on BOTH sides of the
corner, as the corner piece (not sure what it's called) is attached under
the siding, and this would have to be removed. Yuck.

My current theory is (much of this borrowed from an article in the Feb/Mar
2002 Fine Homebuilding, which I found this morning at the library):

1) bolt a temporary 2x10 above the patio door (after removing some siding)
using 2 1/2" lag screws per stud.
2) Rent a couple of sufficient (10 ton?) jacks to ease the load on the
members
3) Cut out the damaged joist and top plate (approx 4-6' section, depending
on how much I cut out)
4) Add significant new supports between concrete foundation and new
members
6) Let the jacks down and put all the siding back.

Does this sound like a reasonable solution? Is there anything special I
need to do to keep the repaired joists from twisting under the loads (both
from the house and from the new deck? I only have access from the
outside...

-Tim

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...
We're building a new deck, and yesterday I removed the old ledger board
from
the old deck and to my horor, discovered that for years, water had been
seeping between this board and the rim joist on the house, and the rim
joist
is now badly rotted. In fact, there's about a 12-18" section that is
all
but not there now, once I poked many holes through it with my finger...

So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little
info
I
found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the
floor
joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's
parallel
to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's
a
split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist
and
the block foundation below.

My questions a

a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it
out
and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right
over
the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since
I'm
over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header
plate
like you'd expect if it were load bearing.

b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly
during
this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside
are
finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the
framing
members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
slightly bigger one...

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I"d like to (at least start to)
tackle
this project today, so any info I can get ASAP would be wonderful.

-Tim

P.S. By the way, I'm pretty handy with repairs and with a hammer --
just
never had to tackle anything of this nature before (and hopefully won't
anytime soon after this!

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:00:56 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:
......deck? I only have access from the
outside...
-Tim

Why?
Don't you own the inside? Even if you don't, you should be able to
get permission to get access and remove some drywall and have free
access to both sides for a very short period of time.

A litle drywall and paint and it looks better than new.

..

Why?
Don't you own the inside? Even if you don't, you should be able to
get permission to get access and remove some drywall and have free
access to both sides for a very short period of time.

A litle drywall and paint and it looks better than new.

It's not drywall -- it's tongue and groove knotty cedar -- extremely hard to
remove without damaging (I've tried in the past), and it would be almost
impossible to match the rest of the room if I replaced it.

I'm actually about halfway through the plan I outlined earlier -- supported
the above structure with jacks (there seems to be very little dead weight on
the section anyway), and cut out the bad stuff. I've shored up the short
wall and replaced the sections of the top plate, with several new studs to
make sure it's all rock solid. Now I"m inside for a few minutes cooling off
before I do the joist itself.

Wish me luck!

-Tim

Check out the July 2005 issuse of Fine Homebuilding. They show how to
replace a rotten mudsill on page 62.

Rob

JimL wrote:
Tim


There are some experienced professionals on this newsgroup. But
they can't work with your inadequate descriptions of your problem.

Post several pictures of the problem also showing the structural
details of your house and you will get some valuable advice from the
professionals.

JimL







On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:51:42 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:


"SQLit" wrote in message
...

Me thinks you need a pro to guide you.

I would only be guessing at a solution. I bet your going to be jacking
the
house up to replace the rotted timber.

I'm not even sure what type of a pro you'd call for such a thing. And I
envision it to be very expensive, not so much because it's difficult, but
because it's labor intensive.

I'd be very open to hiring someone to come out and consult me and then let
me do the work, if I could find such a person. But we really don't have an
extra $2-3K in the budget right now to cover this little "surprise" and have
it fully done. We're building the new deck ourselves, and this would just
about double the cost of it.

Can anyone answer the following questions:

a) On the gable side of a split-entry house, to what degree are the framing
members load bearing? It would seem like if this was bearing major weight
that it would be resting on something a little more solid than a single 2x4
top plate (for what it's worth, the 2x4 is also rotted out and needs to be
replaced).

b) Is a 2x10" rim joist in this application a "spanning" member, or does it
simply rest on the wall below? That is, can I cut out a chunk and replace
it, or does the entire span (from side of the house to the center steel
support, presumably) need replacing?

c) Again in this application, can I safely remove a 2-3' chunk of rim joist
and replace it without jacking? There doen't seem to be many loads here on
the gable side -- there's absolutely no noticable sagging with the 1-2'
rotten chunk now... If I do need to jack, how what do I jack against? I'm
partially under a patio door, but I'd envision attaching a temporary
horizontal member to the framing studs of the house, and jacking between
that and the ground from the exterior? (Again, I'm parallel to the floor
joists, not perp to it).

d) Once again, my new deck will be supported by this member (actually, if
I'd just replace the damaged chunk, it would be replaced mostly by the old,
non-rotten portions of the original member, and just a 2-3' chunk of
replacement). So everything will need to be engineered so the deck will be
properly supported.

Rest assured I'm pretty good at knowing when I'm over my head -- but I"m
looking for specific details here. Upon hearing how it's done, I'm capable
of realizing if I'll need to call in the pros or not. But for now, I'm
simply asking "how would the pros do it"? I do appreciate the sentiments
that I should just call a pro, but now that we've got that covered twice
over, I'd appreciate it if all future replies can stick to the questions at
hand, and any other project specific details.

Thanks!
-Tim

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...

(snip)
I'm actually about halfway through the plan I outlined earlier --
supported
the above structure with jacks (there seems to be very little dead weight
on
the section anyway), and cut out the bad stuff. I've shored up the short
wall and replaced the sections of the top plate, with several new studs to
make sure it's all rock solid. Now I"m inside for a few minutes cooling
off
before I do the joist itself.

Wish me luck!

On a gable end like that, with the rim joist parallel to the other joists,
that rotted sill and joist is basically only holding up the end wall, and
whatever is hanging off of it. In your case, sounds like the only critical
item is the end support for the centerline steel beam. Just for giggles, I
would put a screw post under that on the inside, in case all that is buried
in the wall is a rotted triple 2x4 holding it up. Aside from that, your
plans sounds workable. Even if it eats your deck budget, I'd go ahead and
replace all the rotten wood in the wall while you have it apart. Nothing
lives longer than a temporary repair, and you can always do the deck next
year- just make sure to barricade the slider that opens into space. When you
do the new deck, use standoffs for ledger board, or better yet, make deck
almost free-standing, with poles a foot back from wall, and only tie it to
house enough so that it doesn't wobble in the wind.

Standard disclaimers apply- even with the pictures you posted, can't really
see your house from here. And although I grew up in construction, I am not a
licensed engineer, so consider this advice worth what you paid for it.

aem sends...