PLEASE HELP I AM ABOUT TO TAKE ON A LOFT CONVERSION,I HAVE A HIPPED
ROOF 1950S SEMI,I PLAN TO RUN JOISTS OFF THE OUTER WALL PLATE ONTO THE
AJOINING/PARTY WALL,WHAT FIXINGS DO I USE,
1,FIT A PIECE OF TIMBER TO THIS WALL THEN SIMPLY JOIST HANG FROM THIS
TIMBER,IF SO WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

2,ANGLE GRIND THE MORTER OUT ANF FIT JOIST HANGERS INTO THE WALL,IF SO
WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

THE ROOM IS ONLY FOR VEY LIGHT USE,SMALL KIDS PLAYROOM,COMPUTER ROOM ETC

In article .com,
Moggy wrote:
PLEASE HELP I AM ABOUT TO TAKE ON A LOFT CONVERSION,I HAVE A HIPPED
ROOF 1950S SEMI,I PLAN TO RUN JOISTS OFF THE OUTER WALL PLATE ONTO
THE AJOINING/PARTY WALL,WHAT FIXINGS DO I USE,
1,FIT A PIECE OF TIMBER TO THIS WALL THEN SIMPLY JOIST HANG FROM
THIS TIMBER,IF SO WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

2,ANGLE GRIND THE MORTER OUT ANF FIT JOIST HANGERS INTO THE WALL,IF
SO WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

Firstly typing in caps is considered shouting - not very considerate.

On most semis the ceiling joists run front to back. If yours do and
you run your new floor joists from hipped end to party wall they will
be above the existing ceiling joists and will markedly reduce the
available height/space. Also with this span you're going to need
pretty big joists and I'd have doubts as to how you'd support them at
the hipped end.

If you're going to do it, do it properly. Paying someone who is
familiar with loft conversions and can produce a design that works and
complies with the regs will be money well spent.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

moggy wrote:

PLEASE HELP I AM ABOUT TO TAKE ON A LOFT CONVERSION,I HAVE A HIPPED
ROOF 1950S SEMI,I PLAN TO RUN JOISTS OFF THE OUTER WALL PLATE ONTO THE
AJOINING/PARTY WALL,WHAT FIXINGS DO I USE,

As Tony said, if your existing loft beams run the other way you may lose
too much headroom.

If you do need to fix a beam to the party wall then a heavy shoe of a
type designed to be bolted to a flat surface is the sort of thing you
would require. Note that these are not as easy to find as the more usual
timber to timber hangers, or the ones designed to be built in to brickwork.

I had one beam I needed to hang this way (it was a stringer that needed
to carry the floor joists that I did not want sitting on the lintle (of
unknown strength) over a large bay window). Looked like this:

http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/shoe.jpg

Beam F on this diagram:

http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/beam-layout.gif

THE ROOM IS ONLY FOR VEY LIGHT USE,SMALL KIDS PLAYROOM,COMPUTER ROOM ETC

The floor will still need to comply with the same building regulations,
so the actual use does not make that much difference from a strength
point of view.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The floor will still need to comply with the same building regulations, so
the actual use does not make that much difference from a strength point of
view.


You will also need to check out the law relating to party walls as well as
getting building regulations approval before you start work. Failure to do
so will make your house difficult if not impossible to sell in the future.
Take a look here for more details.

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996040.htm

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects...egulations.htm

Peter Crosland

"moggy" wrote in message
oups.com...
PLEASE HELP I AM ABOUT TO TAKE ON A LOFT CONVERSION,I HAVE A HIPPED
ROOF 1950S SEMI,I PLAN TO RUN JOISTS OFF THE OUTER WALL PLATE ONTO THE
AJOINING/PARTY WALL,WHAT FIXINGS DO I USE,
1,FIT A PIECE OF TIMBER TO THIS WALL THEN SIMPLY JOIST HANG FROM THIS
TIMBER,IF SO WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

2,ANGLE GRIND THE MORTER OUT ANF FIT JOIST HANGERS INTO THE WALL,IF SO
WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

THE ROOM IS ONLY FOR VEY LIGHT USE,SMALL KIDS PLAYROOM,COMPUTER ROOM ETC


I THINK YOU SHOULD LEAVE WELL ALONE, MEE' SON. AS YOU DON'T SEEM
TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE ON ABOUT.

A loft conversion needs planning permission, ALL OF THEM, not just yours.
Kids playing in a room that is a fire hazard is also a NO NO !!! What
plans for them to escape have you made? How will you stop a fire reaching
them in the hottest part of the house, especially in a fire? What lighting
and power pints are you putting in it? Will there be natural light from a
roof window? If so, what type of window are you installing?

Don't be stupid man please!!! Make proper plans for this, and get real
professional advice from a structural engineer or architect, before you go
knocking your, or someone else's, house down.

In article ,
BigWallop wrote:
A loft conversion needs planning permission, ALL OF THEM, not
just yours.

No, it needs Building Regulations approval. It might just need
planning permission, but lots don't.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

BigWallop wrote:

I THINK YOU SHOULD LEAVE WELL ALONE, MEE' SON. AS YOU DON'T SEEM
TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE ON ABOUT.

Don't you start shouting as well ;-)

(Welcome back BigWallop, not seen you round these parts for a while)

A loft conversion needs planning permission, ALL OF THEM, not just yours.

In fact (contrary to common opinion) most do *not* need PP.

Typically a "full plans submission" to building control with structural
calculations for critical items like the floor design is more than
adequate. You may be able to do it on a building notice and supply the
calcs later.

You are only likely to need PP if you are changing the front aspect of
the property (i.e. adding a front dormer). Note that a hipped roof to
gable end conversion is oddly not considered to be changing the front
aspect. You will also highly likely to need PP if the building is in a
conservation area, or is listed.

Kids playing in a room that is a fire hazard is also a NO NO !!! What
plans for them to escape have you made? How will you stop a fire reaching
them in the hottest part of the house, especially in a fire?

Most of this is covered by building regs. None of the rooms should be
fire hazards if done right. The fire regs will require that there is a
means of escape window (one that is big enough and low enough to climb
out off) from each habitable room (i.e. not bathroom). This can be a
Velux style roof window. The new habitable rooms will require 30 min
fire doors. If the building is now over two storeys then mains powered
and interlinked smoke detectors on each floor. Existing doors that open
onto the exit route need to be made self closing (unless the stairs are
separate/enclosed). The ceiling under the new floor will need to be at
least 12mm PB with skim, or, extra rockwool or similar can be added into
the new floor to enhance fire break performance).

What lighting
and power pints are you putting in it?

Building regs may require that at least one of the new light fittings is
of a type that will only accept "low energy" bulbs.

No particular requirements on power, other than fit what you think you
need and what is sensible.

Will there be natural light from a
roof window? If so, what type of window are you installing?

There will be a MoE window, but type is not that important from a
regulation point of view. Again choose whatever seems right.

Don't be stupid man please!!! Make proper plans for this, and get real

Yup, go along with that....

professional advice from a structural engineer or architect, before you go
knocking your, or someone else's, house down.

It is possible to DIY with a bit of care and attention to detail. Just
needs some research first.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

BigWallop wrote:
"moggy" wrote in message
oups.com...
PLEASE HELP I AM ABOUT TO TAKE ON A LOFT CONVERSION,I HAVE A HIPPED
ROOF 1950S SEMI,I PLAN TO RUN JOISTS OFF THE OUTER WALL PLATE ONTO
THE
AJOINING/PARTY WALL,WHAT FIXINGS DO I USE,
1,FIT A PIECE OF TIMBER TO THIS WALL THEN SIMPLY JOIST HANG FROM
THIS
TIMBER,IF SO WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

2,ANGLE GRIND THE MORTER OUT ANF FIT JOIST HANGERS INTO THE WALL,IF
SO
WHAT JOIST HANGERS DO I USE

THE ROOM IS ONLY FOR VEY LIGHT USE,SMALL KIDS PLAYROOM,COMPUTER
ROOM ETC


I THINK YOU SHOULD LEAVE WELL ALONE, MEE' SON. AS YOU DON'T
SEEM
TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE ON ABOUT.

Pot, Kettle, Black!


A loft conversion needs planning permission, ALL OF THEM,

Are you sure about that?

MBQ

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:

I THINK YOU SHOULD LEAVE WELL ALONE, MEE' SON. AS YOU DON'T
SEEM
TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE ON ABOUT.

Don't you start shouting as well ;-)

(Welcome back BigWallop, not seen you round these parts for a while)

A loft conversion needs planning permission, ALL OF THEM, not just
yours.

In fact (contrary to common opinion) most do *not* need PP.

Typically a "full plans submission" to building control with structural
calculations for critical items like the floor design is more than
adequate. You may be able to do it on a building notice and supply the
calcs later.

You are only likely to need PP if you are changing the front aspect of
the property (i.e. adding a front dormer). Note that a hipped roof to
gable end conversion is oddly not considered to be changing the front
aspect. You will also highly likely to need PP if the building is in a
conservation area, or is listed.

Kids playing in a room that is a fire hazard is also a NO NO !!! What
plans for them to escape have you made? How will you stop a fire
reaching
them in the hottest part of the house, especially in a fire?

Most of this is covered by building regs. None of the rooms should be
fire hazards if done right. The fire regs will require that there is a
means of escape window (one that is big enough and low enough to climb
out off) from each habitable room (i.e. not bathroom). This can be a
Velux style roof window. The new habitable rooms will require 30 min
fire doors. If the building is now over two storeys then mains powered
and interlinked smoke detectors on each floor. Existing doors that open
onto the exit route need to be made self closing (unless the stairs are
separate/enclosed). The ceiling under the new floor will need to be at
least 12mm PB with skim, or, extra rockwool or similar can be added into
the new floor to enhance fire break performance).

snip

Agree with all that Mr Rumm says except to add:

MoE window has to be accessible by ladder from road side as well (which
generally means a lowish Velux at the front)

The important thing about the smoke detectors are that they are linked,
mains is (or was) only recommended (I have linked battery ones).

Bob Mannix

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
BigWallop wrote:
A loft conversion needs planning permission, ALL OF THEM, not
just yours.

No, it needs Building Regulations approval. It might just need
planning permission, but lots don't.


Tony Bryer


Thank you, Tony. That's what I said, but that's not what I meant. I did
indeed mean Building Regs' Approval, and not planning permission. :-)

(just ignore me....I'm just being silly)

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

Most of this is covered by building regs. None of the rooms should be
fire hazards if done right. The fire regs will require that there is a
means of escape window (one that is big enough and low enough to climb
out off) from each habitable room (i.e. not bathroom). This can be a
Velux style roof window.

Someone else has already posted that this needs to be accessable from
a ladder (which makes perfect sense). We have a conservatory the full
width of the back of our house so I assume that this would mean an
escape window in the front?

... The new habitable rooms will require 30 min
fire doors. If the building is now over two storeys then mains powered
and interlinked smoke detectors on each floor. Existing doors that open
onto the exit route need to be made self closing (unless the stairs are
separate/enclosed).

Do these doors on other floors have to be fire rated as well? I guess
and autoclosing door that burns in 30 seconds is a bit of a pointless
exercise! I ask as we are in the early stages of thinking about a loft
conversion and would prefer not to replace the doors on the living and
dining rooms. We have glass panelled doors to allow some natural light
into our (very dark) hallway. Replacing these with firedoors would mean
we loose this light or would have glass with wire in? Or is there a
glass panelled door with clear glass of somesort that is firerated (sounds
pricey...)

The ceiling under the new floor will need to be at
least 12mm PB with skim, or, extra rockwool or similar can be added into
the new floor to enhance fire break performance).

Ah. Thats promising. I was imagining that we would need new ceilings in all
the bedrooms - something I would again rather avoid if there is another
option. I'm not interested in bodging it and def want something that is
upto (or exceeds) fire regs. I would be happy to spend a bit more to
minimise disruption to the rest of the house though!

Cheers,

Darren

dmc wrote:

Someone else has already posted that this needs to be accessable from
a ladder (which makes perfect sense). We have a conservatory the full
width of the back of our house so I assume that this would mean an
escape window in the front?

Probably. You can get MoE velux style windows however. You can have a
MoE window over a single storey extension, but the roof of it needs to
be something non combustible that you could make an escape over, and/or
put a ladder on if needs be. Most conservatories will not meet these
criteria.

... The new habitable rooms will require 30 min
fire doors. If the building is now over two storeys then mains powered
and interlinked smoke detectors on each floor. Existing doors that open
onto the exit route need to be made self closing (unless the stairs are
separate/enclosed).


Do these doors on other floors have to be fire rated as well? I guess
and autoclosing door that burns in 30 seconds is a bit of a pointless
exercise! I ask as we are in the early stages of thinking about a loft

Generally the exiting doors made self closing are fine. Even a
lightweight "eggbox" door will buy you extra minutes to escape in if it
is shut. You may find there are specific requirements however if the
existing doors are partly glazed.

conversion and would prefer not to replace the doors on the living and
dining rooms. We have glass panelled doors to allow some natural light
into our (very dark) hallway. Replacing these with firedoors would mean
we loose this light or would have glass with wire in? Or is there a
glass panelled door with clear glass of somesort that is firerated (sounds
pricey...)

Approved document B will tell you:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...ge/br0043.hcsp

The ceiling under the new floor will need to be at
least 12mm PB with skim, or, extra rockwool or similar can be added into
the new floor to enhance fire break performance).


Ah. Thats promising. I was imagining that we would need new ceilings in all
the bedrooms - something I would again rather avoid if there is another
option. I'm not interested in bodging it and def want something that is
upto (or exceeds) fire regs. I would be happy to spend a bit more to
minimise disruption to the rest of the house though!

The original plans for ours commented that ceilings ought to be 12mm and
skim, and if not then add 100mm of rockwool suspended on chicken wire
between the new floor joists. As it happened we had 9mm PB + skim
ceilings so this was necessary. The BCO did also comment that they may
have required the insulation under the floor anyway to meet the new
noise transmission requirements.

Apart from being a right pain to do, I was in principle happy enough to
do it since I was quite keen on the extra noise insulation anyway -
never mind the fire regs!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Bob Mannix wrote:

Agree with all that Mr Rumm says except to add:

MoE window has to be accessible by ladder from road side as well (which
generally means a lowish Velux at the front)

The MoE window(s) needs to be in a place where a ladder can be carried
to it from the road side - it does not actually have to be on the road
side itself (although in many cases it will be obviously). So a loft
conversion with two habitable rooms can have MoE windows to front and
rear.

With regards to height, there are two subtly differing requirements with
roof windows. The base of it should be within 1.7m of the eves
(measured along the slope of the roof). The height of the base of the
window must also be between 600mm and 1100mm from the finished floor
level inside the room (measured vertically from the floor).
(building regs B1)

The important thing about the smoke detectors are that they are linked,
mains is (or was) only recommended (I have linked battery ones).

Yes, that is probably more accurately phrased than what I said.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The MOE window does not have to accessed from the road side. It only
needs to be accessible from a flat area (e.g. a path) where a ladder
can be used safely, and also where the ladder can be carried to. In my
case this is at the rear of the property and would mean carrying it
through a narrow shared passageway, but building control said that the
fire service would proabley go over the fence (or though it!) from the
other side of my property where their is an adjacent driveway. You
can't use an exit which alights onto say a flat roof area etc.