Hello:

Will be doing a fan installation in attic, and was wondering
about the running of the wires, and what's allowable under the code.

Obviously, it's not a good idea to run them across the tops of the floor
joists.

Nor, I would imagine between the bottom of the floor joists and the
plasterboard
ceiling for the rooms below (assuming there's a little space there)

So, how does one handle it if the floor seems likes the best routing ?

Is it allowable to just run across the "joists" (not sure if this is the
correct word for)
that hold the roof paneling in an area not likely to see any traffic such as
very close to where the edge of the roof
meets the walls ?

Or, is it required to drill a lole thru each joist or roof support joist for
the wire ?
Is this the only correct method ?

Or,... ?

Thanks,
B.

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

Will be doing a fan installation in attic, and was wondering
about the running of the wires, and what's allowable under the code.

Obviously, it's not a good idea to run them across the tops of the floor
joists.

Nor, I would imagine between the bottom of the floor joists and the
plasterboard
ceiling for the rooms below (assuming there's a little space there)

So, how does one handle it if the floor seems likes the best routing ?

Is it allowable to just run across the "joists" (not sure if this is the
correct word for)
that hold the roof paneling in an area not likely to see any traffic such
as
very close to where the edge of the roof
meets the walls ?

Or, is it required to drill a lole thru each joist or roof support joist
for
the wire ?
Is this the only correct method ?

Or,... ?

Thanks,
B.


I have no license. I did just have a house rewired. I have also been a DYI
guy for a number of years. Keep them away from anywhere that some one may
step on them and it is okay to run them across the joist on the the top of
the joist. If and when you need to bring it towards the center of the
attic, bring it straight up to the rafter and then take it to where you
need to connect the fan. Keep it along the lower 2" of the rafter and
support it with a proper cable staple every 16" or so.

Colbyt

In article , "Robert11" wrote:
Hello:

Will be doing a fan installation in attic, and was wondering
about the running of the wires, and what's allowable under the code.

Obviously, it's not a good idea to run them across the tops of the floor
joists.

Right, that doesn't meet Code.

Nor, I would imagine between the bottom of the floor joists and the
plasterboard
ceiling for the rooms below (assuming there's a little space there)

There isn't. And that doesn't meet Code either.

So, how does one handle it if the floor seems likes the best routing ?

Is it allowable to just run across the "joists" (not sure if this is the
correct word for) that hold the roof paneling

"rafters"

in an area not likely to see any traffic such as
very close to where the edge of the roof
meets the walls ?

No.

Or, is it required to drill a lole thru each joist or roof support joist for
the wire ?

That's one way.

Is this the only correct method ?

There are others.

1) attach boards running across the tops of the joists, and attach the wire to
the boards

2) run conduit across the tops of the joists, and pass the wire through the
conduit

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "Colbyt" wrote:

I have no license. I did just have a house rewired. I have also been a DYI
guy for a number of years. Keep them away from anywhere that some one may
step on them and it is okay to run them across the joist on the the top of
the joist.

Wrong.

"The installation of [NM ("Romex")] cable in accessible attics or roof spaces
shall also comply with Section 333-12." [NEC, Article 336-13, NM Cable in
Accessible Attics

That section reads:

"cables in accessible attics or roof spaces shall be installed as specified in
(a) and (b) below.

(a) where run across the top of floor joists, or within 7 feet of floor or
floor joists across the faces of rafters or studding, the cable shall be
protected by substantial guard strips that are at least as high as the cable."

If and when you need to bring it towards the center of the
attic, bring it straight up to the rafter and then take it to where you
need to connect the fan. Keep it along the lower 2" of the rafter and
support it with a proper cable staple every 16" or so.

Also wrong (see above).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

More difficult, but wouldn't armored cable be OK too?


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Robert11" wrote:
Hello:

Will be doing a fan installation in attic, and was
wondering
about the running of the wires, and what's allowable
under the code.

Obviously, it's not a good idea to run them across
the tops of the floor
joists.

Right, that doesn't meet Code.

Nor, I would imagine between the bottom of the floor
joists and the
plasterboard
ceiling for the rooms below (assuming there's a
little space there)

There isn't. And that doesn't meet Code either.

So, how does one handle it if the floor seems likes
the best routing ?

Is it allowable to just run across the "joists" (not
sure if this is the
correct word for) that hold the roof paneling

"rafters"

in an area not likely to see any traffic such as
very close to where the edge of the roof
meets the walls ?

No.

Or, is it required to drill a lole thru each joist or
roof support joist for
the wire ?

That's one way.

Is this the only correct method ?

There are others.

1) attach boards running across the tops of the
joists, and attach the wire to
the boards

2) run conduit across the tops of the joists, and
pass the wire through the
conduit

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by
sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of
time?

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:52:55 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

....
Or, is it required to drill a lole thru each joist or roof support joist for
the wire ?

That's one way.

Is this the only correct method ?

There are others.

1) attach boards running across the tops of the joists, and attach the wire to
the boards

2) run conduit across the tops of the joists, and pass the wire through the
conduit
in ontario, code says you can run cable across the underside
of the rafters as long as the space between the rafters and the
"floor" is less than 3 feet (as i recall. i don't have the code book
here).
....thehick

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Colbyt"
wrote:

I have no license. I did just have a house rewired. I have also been a
DYI
guy for a number of years. Keep them away from anywhere that some one
may
step on them and it is okay to run them across the joist on the the top
of
the joist.

Wrong.

"The installation of [NM ("Romex")] cable in accessible attics or roof
spaces
shall also comply with Section 333-12." [NEC, Article 336-13, NM Cable in
Accessible Attics

That section reads:

"cables in accessible attics or roof spaces shall be installed as
specified in
(a) and (b) below.

(a) where run across the top of floor joists, or within 7 feet of floor or
floor joists across the faces of rafters or studding, the cable shall be
protected by substantial guard strips that are at least as high as the
cable."

If and when you need to bring it towards the center of the
attic, bring it straight up to the rafter and then take it to where you
need to connect the fan. Keep it along the lower 2" of the rafter and
support it with a proper cable staple every 16" or so.

Also wrong (see above).


Doug if you want to email me direct I will give you the contact numbers to
discuss this with the local electrical inspector.

In all fairness, I think we may be disagreeing over the term "floor joists".
My answer was for an attic area designed for limited or no storage area.

Colbyt

Colbyt wrote:
In all fairness, I think we may be disagreeing over the term "floor joists".
My answer was for an attic area designed for limited or no storage area.

Technically, it's the term "accessible". If an attic is not accessible
by a permanent ladder or stairs, guard strips are required only within
6 feet of the scuttle hole.

In article , "Pop" wrote:
More difficult, but wouldn't armored cable be OK too?

No. The Code requirements for installing Romex and armored cable in accessible
attics are the same.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "Colbyt" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Colbyt"
wrote:

I have no license. I did just have a house rewired. I have also been a
DYI
guy for a number of years. Keep them away from anywhere that some one
may
step on them and it is okay to run them across the joist on the the top
of
the joist.

Wrong.

"The installation of [NM ("Romex")] cable in accessible attics or roof
spaces
shall also comply with Section 333-12." [NEC, Article 336-13, NM Cable in
Accessible Attics

That section reads:

"cables in accessible attics or roof spaces shall be installed as
specified in
(a) and (b) below.

(a) where run across the top of floor joists, or within 7 feet of floor or
floor joists across the faces of rafters or studding, the cable shall be
protected by substantial guard strips that are at least as high as the
cable."

If and when you need to bring it towards the center of the
attic, bring it straight up to the rafter and then take it to where you
need to connect the fan. Keep it along the lower 2" of the rafter and
support it with a proper cable staple every 16" or so.

Also wrong (see above).


Doug if you want to email me direct I will give you the contact numbers to
discuss this with the local electrical inspector.

If your local electrical inspector approves it, then it's ok in your local
jurisdiction - but it's *not* OK under the NEC, and a blanket statement such
as you made ["it's okay to run them across the joist"] is not true.

In all fairness, I think we may be disagreeing over the term "floor joists".

No, I don't think so.

My answer was for an attic area designed for limited or no storage area.

Then you should have said so. Even in that case, the Code still has specific
requirements beyond simply "keep[ing] them away from anywhere that someone may
step on them."

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

My answer was for an attic area designed for limited or no storage area.


"Then you should have said so. Even in that case, the Code still has
specific
requirements beyond simply "keep[ing] them away from anywhere that
someone may
step on them"

Give us a break Doug. The vast majority of attics are not designed
for storage and have limited access. And the OP was asking about
installing am attic fan, which also sounds like a typical thing done in
an attic that offers limited access. If anything, it's you Doug who
should have clarified the question before giving advice.

In article .com, wrote:
My answer was for an attic area designed for limited or no storage area.


"Then you should have said so. Even in that case, the Code still has
specific
requirements beyond simply "keep[ing] them away from anywhere that
someone may
step on them"

Give us a break Doug. The vast majority of attics are not designed
for storage and have limited access.

That may be a regional thing. I've lived in the Midwest all my life, and most
of the attics I've seen *are* designed for storage, and have easy access.

And the OP was asking about
installing am attic fan, which also sounds like a typical thing done in
an attic that offers limited access.

It's a typical thing for an attic that's too hot. Ease of access has nothing
to do with it.

If anything, it's you Doug who
should have clarified the question before giving advice.

Maybe you should read a bit more carefully before you criticise.

I made two responses: one to the OP, who asked if various wiring practices
were permitted by Code (they aren't, and I told him so), and the other to a
guy who told him that they are (he's wrong, and I told him so).


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

access.
And the OP was asking about
installing am attic fan, which also sounds like a typical thing done in
an attic that offers limited access.


"It's a typical thing for an attic that's too hot. Ease of access has
nothing
to do with it. "


Yeah, well let's take a poll. I've seen lots of posts here from people
asking about venting attics with fans. I don't recall hearing mention
from almost all of them about the attic being used for regular access
or storage. Sure, you can vent any attic, but the fact is the
majority of attics in the US are not intended for regular access. They
don't have flooring installed and simply have a small panel whereby
with a ladder, one can get up there. Some do have stairs added, but
clearly they are the minority. To do otherwise would add expenses that
builders don't want or need to incur. Unless someone states the attic
is being used, I'd ask before assuming it.

wrote:
access.
And the OP was asking about
installing am attic fan, which also sounds like a typical thing done in
an attic that offers limited access.


"It's a typical thing for an attic that's too hot. Ease of access has
nothing
to do with it. "


Yeah, well let's take a poll. I've seen lots of posts here from people
asking about venting attics with fans. I don't recall hearing mention
from almost all of them about the attic being used for regular access
or storage. Sure, you can vent any attic, but the fact is the
majority of attics in the US are not intended for regular access. They
don't have flooring installed and simply have a small panel whereby
with a ladder, one can get up there. Some do have stairs added, but
clearly they are the minority. To do otherwise would add expenses that
builders don't want or need to incur. Unless someone states the attic
is being used, I'd ask before assuming it.

Here is the answer to the poll: Doug gets some sort of sick thrill from
telling people they are wrong.

In real life, people avoid him because he smells and is morbidly obese.
So he found usenet, and here he can display his vast knowledge about
all things, and at the same time tell people they are wrong.

Don't disagree with him, because when he sees you are right and he is
wrong, he will change the subject.

Here is the answer to the poll: Doug gets some sort of sick thrill from
telling people they are wrong.

In real life, people avoid him because he smells and is morbidly obese.
So he found usenet, and here he can display his vast knowledge about
all things, and at the same time tell people they are wrong.

Don't disagree with him, because when he sees you are right and he is
wrong, he will change the subject.

Are you talking about Doug, the AlphaTurd? If so, please do not pick on
him; this is all he has.

In article , "toller" wrote:


Here is the answer to the poll: Doug gets some sort of sick thrill from
telling people they are wrong.

In real life, people avoid him because he smells and is morbidly obese.
So he found usenet, and here he can display his vast knowledge about
all things, and at the same time tell people they are wrong.

Don't disagree with him, because when he sees you are right and he is
wrong, he will change the subject.

Are you talking about Doug, the AlphaTurd? If so, please do not pick on
him; this is all he has.


Still ****ed over getting busted *again* for your incorrect and dangerous
electrical advice, I see. Get over it, Wade.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article .com, wrote:
access.
And the OP was asking about
installing am attic fan, which also sounds like a typical thing done in
an attic that offers limited access.


"It's a typical thing for an attic that's too hot. Ease of access has
nothing
to do with it. "


Yeah, well let's take a poll. I've seen lots of posts here from people
asking about venting attics with fans. I don't recall hearing mention
from almost all of them about the attic being used for regular access
or storage. Sure, you can vent any attic, but the fact is the
majority of attics in the US are not intended for regular access. They
don't have flooring installed and simply have a small panel whereby
with a ladder, one can get up there. Some do have stairs added, but
clearly they are the minority. To do otherwise would add expenses that
builders don't want or need to incur. Unless someone states the attic
is being used, I'd ask before assuming it.

You're still missing the point. _Even_if_ the attic is not an "accessible
attic" as defined by the code, there are still specific code requirements
that apply. You can't just run wiring any way you please.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Actually, I forgot about you getting your ass handed to you by Tom
Horne, Smelly; but thanks for reminding me.

"Matt" wrote in message
ups.com...
Actually, I forgot about you getting your ass handed to you by Tom
Horne, Smelly; but thanks for reminding me.


I don't know what you are referring to. If he did, Mr. Horne was in error.

"volts500" wrote in message
ups.com...
Colbyt wrote:
In all fairness, I think we may be disagreeing over the term "floor
joists".
My answer was for an attic area designed for limited or no storage area.

Technically, it's the term "accessible". If an attic is not accessible
by a permanent ladder or stairs, guard strips are required only within
6 feet of the scuttle hole.


Thank you Volts.

I knew what I saw and what was done and inspected.

I also was pretty sure that Doug was right in his quote.

Colbyt

That was pointed at smelly fat *******, not you, toller.