"Les,
I'm sure you got a great deal and made out very well. I'm even more
sure
that you side-jobber made out even better. I have no doubts about
that. I
just don't like it when our kids get ripped off so that someone else
can get
a great deal. Especially if it's tax/education dollars that got
ripped-off
through illegal use of school district materials *AND/OR" equipment &
tools.
Jabs "

You know, you are an amazing fellow. You know that the guy who does
A/C work for the school but also does other A/C work on the side is
stealing materials from the school. You know he's using school
equipment too. You must be clairvoyant. And at the same time you know
that any other repairman someone might find, say through the yellow
pages must be 100% honest, right, cause he has a nice ad and maybe a
phone service. Ever see the TV news shows where they take things
like a TV with a blown fuse to shops that appears to be 100% legit,
only to be told by a third of them that it needs $250 worth of bogus
work?

Tell me this. Did you ever buy anything on Ebay? Did you check out
where it came from, whether the guy had a business license, if his
house was zoned for business, if he had an arrest record, check his tax
returns to see if he's paying tax and determine if he was using his
employer's computer at work to check on his auctions? Or did you just
buy the item on Ebay like everyone else.

wrote:

You know, you are an amazing fellow. You know that the guy who does
A/C work for the school but also does other A/C work on the side is
stealing materials from the school. You know he's using school
equipment too.

At a 22% lower price.......you can bet your ass he is!


You must be clairvoyant. And at the same time you know
that any other repairman someone might find, say through the yellow
pages must be 100% honest, right, cause he has a nice ad and maybe a
phone service. Ever see the TV news shows where they take things
like a TV with a blown fuse to shops that appears to be 100% legit,
only to be told by a third of them that it needs $250 worth of bogus
work?


Yes, I have seen them and I don't those guy either! I just hope they never
get to work for a school district.


Tell me this. Did you ever buy anything on Ebay?

No! Never! ..........from anyone with a Positive Feedback Score of less
than 100%.


Did you check out
where it came from, whether the guy had a business license, if his
house was zoned for business, if he had an arrest record, check his tax
returns to see if he's paying tax and determine if he was using his
employer's computer at work to check on his auctions? Or did you just
buy the item on Ebay like everyone else.


What do I look like..... the ****ing District Attorney?

Jabs

"At a 22% lower price.......you can bet your ass he is! "

Well if anyone had any doubts about what a complete moron you are, this
is the final proof. Anyone who has gone out for price quotes on any
kind of repair knows that it's not uncommon to see price variations
much larger than this. If that's the sign of a thief, then there are
sure a lot of them. Even retail prices for common products vary that
much from store to store.

Les,
If you weren't such a dumb-ass, you'd know that the price you paid for your
installation *was* a very good price. Only a thief could beat that price by
$1000. Too bad you're too ****ing dumb to see that. Oh! I forgot.....that
why your dumb-ass came here..... to confirm that you're a dumb-ass. Well,
it has been confirmed.

Jabs


wrote in message
oups.com...
"At a 22% lower price.......you can bet your ass he is! "

Well if anyone had any doubts about what a complete moron you are, this
is the final proof. Anyone who has gone out for price quotes on any
kind of repair knows that it's not uncommon to see price variations
much larger than this. If that's the sign of a thief, then there are
sure a lot of them. Even retail prices for common products vary that
much from store to store.

"Les,
If you weren't such a dumb-ass, you'd know that the price you paid for
your
installation *was* a very good price."

You obviously don't even know who's posts you're replying to. I'm not
Les. So I'll leave it for others to decide who's really dumb. Get
back to us on a good day when you've taken your medication and stayed
out of the bottle.

I'm sorry, I thought you were acting like a dumb-ass. Now I know..... you
weren't acting.

Jabs



wrote in message
oups.com...
"Les,
If you weren't such a dumb-ass, you'd know that the price you paid for
your
installation *was* a very good price."

You obviously don't even know who's posts you're replying to. I'm not
Les. So I'll leave it for others to decide who's really dumb. Get
back to us on a good day when you've taken your medication and stayed
out of the bottle.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:12:03 GMT, someone wrote:

We recently had a new gas furnace and central AC installed. Paid about
$4700 from a local well known company.....

A second quote from another local company that's well known was anywhere
from $4700 to $6500...

You should have paid $4700 if you wanted a well known local company to
do it.

You could have paid less if you were willing to have a moonlighting
guy who may even be using his employer's tools and equipment to do the
job.

Are the moonlighting guys authorized installers if there are any
warranty issues?


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

1099? Please don't drink and post.

=================

John A. Weeks III wrote in message ...
In article .com,
wrote:

"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.

These jobs require some specialized tools and equipment. Who
owns those tools? If he uses his work tools on the side, then
that is equivalent to theft. His company fronts all the money,
but the worker is putting wear and tear doing under the table
jobs. And how about the truck that transported those tools?
Who owned the truck? And whose contractor license was being
used? Most likely, you would have ended up with an illegal
furnace that couldn't pass inspection. And who paid for
stuff like worker's comp insurance? You did send in a
check, didn't you? If not, then you took a huge risk of the
furnace guy getting cut on sheet metal and being disabled.
Plus you broke the law. Were you planning to send a 1099 for
the work, or were you going to commit tax fraud along the
way, too? And was the worker in the union? What kind of
union guy does scab work on the side. Finally, what happens
if the job went bad after the fact? Who is there to stand
bye and warranty the work? Or fix the defects? Or do your
emergency service call at midnight when it is 40 below? Or
to accept the blame when your house burns own, and your own
insurance refuses to pay because you had unlicensed work
done with no building permit or inspection?

Every part of this deal stinks, and has huge cost risks for
very little monetary gain. Don't fall into that trap.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

Trader4,

Well said!

Gideon

===============


wrote in message
.com...
"If you would stop assuming so much, and READ these posts, you would
see that
there is a lesson here, even if its not what you want to hear. "

YOU are the one that's assuming everything, not me. You assume
everyone steals tools and it's up to a homeowner to know where they
came from. You assume a permit is required to replace a compressor.
Oh, but now you say it "may" be required. Please do tell. Do you get
a permit to replace a compressor? Almost everywhere, it's not
required, yet you assume it was in my case and that by not getting one
I broke the law.

You assume an employer has a problem with an employee having a business
on the side that doesn't conflict with the employer's business. You
assume there are tax reporting issues for a homeowner when they hire a
repariman and they have to file 1099's, when in fact as others have
pointed out, it's totally false.

I can just imagine the BS you feed customers to take advantage of them.
You sound like the shyster that comes in and sites all kinds of
non-existent BS, then tells the lady, sorry dear I'm gonna have to call
in some non-existent agency to red tag your furnace to scare her into
getting unneccesary work done.

Jabs wrote:

Les,
I'm sure you got a great deal and made out very well. I'm even more sure
that you side-jobber made out even better. I have no doubts about that. I
just don't like it when our kids get ripped off so that someone else can get
a great deal. Especially if it's tax/education dollars that got ripped-off
through illegal use of school district materials *AND/OR" equipment & tools.

Jabs


And I don't know how the rest of the country is, but the fat, lazy,
stupid techs here can always get a job at a school district.

wrote:

"At a 22% lower price.......you can bet your ass he is! "

Well if anyone had any doubts about what a complete moron you are, this
is the final proof. Anyone who has gone out for price quotes on any
kind of repair knows that it's not uncommon to see price variations
much larger than this. If that's the sign of a thief, then there are
sure a lot of them. Even retail prices for common products vary that
much from store to store.


Just curious -- you always accept the low bid? For your car repair
and, say, masons and electricians? Drive a Yugo or Hyundai? Hire
mojados for roofing?

You mean, plain dumb versus playing dumb?

Jabs wrote:

I'm sorry, I thought you were acting like a dumb-ass. Now I know..... you
weren't acting.

Jabs



wrote in message
oups.com...

"Les,
If you weren't such a dumb-ass, you'd know that the price you paid for
your
installation *was* a very good price."

You obviously don't even know who's posts you're replying to. I'm not
Les. So I'll leave it for others to decide who's really dumb. Get
back to us on a good day when you've taken your medication and stayed
out of the bottle.

v wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:12:03 GMT, someone wrote:


We recently had a new gas furnace and central AC installed. Paid about
$4700 from a local well known company.....

A second quote from another local company that's well known was anywhere

from $4700 to $6500...

You should have paid $4700 if you wanted a well known local company to
do it.

You could have paid less if you were willing to have a moonlighting
guy who may even be using his employer's tools and equipment to do the
job.

Are the moonlighting guys authorized installers if there are any
warranty issues?

Will your homeowner's insurance cover it if the unit is wired or
installed in a faulty manner that results in a fire? Several buildings
a year here have fires that start in the air conditioners.

Jesus... so much for asking a simple question here.

Les,
If you weren't such a dumb-ass, you'd know that the price you paid for
your
installation *was* a very good price. Only a thief could beat that price
by
$1000. Too bad you're too ****ing dumb to see that. Oh! I
forgot.....that
why your dumb-ass came here..... to confirm that you're a dumb-ass. Well,
it has been confirmed.

Jabs

I'm also in Rochester, and got pretty much exactly the same equipment
installed three years ago, in a 50 year old house. Did the company happen
to have the initials I H A A C?

Yup - that'd be them. Up until now, we had their archrival J B do our
annual inspection... but their quotes for Carrier equipment was kinda high.
The clincher for me was the design of the heat exchanger on the Rheem
equipment (tubular steel compared to two pieces of sheet metal crimped
together on the Carrier), and the outdoor AC unit that was less prone to
damage from weed-whackers, soccer balls, etc.

Anyway, we paid something around $3800 to remove the old furnance,
do a bit of duct work, and install new furnance and the outside A/C unit.
( There was no A/C in the house, before. ) We have a 1300 sq ft house.
There
was one guy working most of the day, with a second one who came in
to help carry out the old, absolutely huge Perfection furnace that
was there before. Boy, am I glad I didn't have to help with THAT. ;-)

Hmmm... either prices have shot up considerably in the past few years, or
you had stuff with lower BTU's/tons put in given the smaller square footage.
What did you end up having installed? Any problems with it or I H A A C ??

Trader, you keep argueing your point. The majority of the jobs done like
this are performed like we said, basically stealing from their employer. I
am sorry you do not see it like this.

You are correct about the 1099, it is required for a business to an
individual, but not a homeowner to an individual.

I hope you can understand why us as owners do not like this. Employees
doing work on the side generally use everything that we provide in our
trucks except for the equipment they buy on the side, which is usually very
low end equipment with little or no warranty. If they are friend of yours
it is usually even worse, because if it fails who are you going to complain
to. With the little amount of money you paid him, how much warranty do you
expect him to cover when it fails.

Rather than arguing with everyone that doesn't see it your way, why don't
you open your mind and see it from a different view. When you were
questioned about the issues we brought, why not just answer them or ignore
the thread, instead you have attacked everyone who you didn't like what they
said.

One other point and then I am done, most commercial guys are profficent at
mostly commercial equipment, and most resi guys are profficient at resi. So
just because someone works in the industry, do not automatically assume they
know everything. How many Chevy mechanics can work on a Jaguar.

--
Bob Pietrangelo


www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist




wrote in message
oups.com...
"Since you hired a hack...its obvious that he isnt going to claim your
job on
his taxes, but boy...what if he did...
I love it when I send subs 1099s and they freak out....tough ****...I
got
mine, you got yours and the governt gets theirs. "

But boy what if did? What the hell are you talking about? Like if he
pays taxes on it then the IRS is gonna come after me? Whether someone
who did a job for me pays his taxes or not is his problem, not mine.
Your ignorance is unbounded. Sure you have to give subs a 1099. You
know why? Because you are contracting the subs in the course of your
business. Maybe you should read the instructions for form 1099
sometime:

"Trade of business reporting only. Report on Form 1099-Misc only when
payments are made in the course of trade or business. Personal
payments are not reportable"

Clearly homeowners are not required to file a 1099 when they get
someone to do a repair. Anybody else on this thread ever file one for
a repair job they had done, regardless of who does it? Of course not,
cause it's improper and just plain silly.

As are the rest of your arguments. Like asking me if I know where a
repairman's tools came from. I don't know or check where anyone's
tools came from. You're the one claiming they must be taken from work.
Maybe that's what you do, so you expect it.

" instead you have attacked everyone who you didn't like what they
said. "

If you follow the thread, you will see that it all I did was say that I
had a friend of someone I knew who did A/C work for a living at a major
plant, replace my compressor for me. It was then I who was attacked by
a barrage of BS Like:

Hiring someone who does work on the side is illegal - it's not

That the guys is using his employer's tools - As far as I or anyone
else knows, this is false too. The fellow worked at a plant, not as a
A/C contractor doing homes and showed up in his own truck.

The guy is stealing the parts from work - Totally unfounded

That I broke the law because no permit was taken out - No permit is
required here or in most areas to replace a compressor

That I'm a tax cheat and in trouble with the IRS because I didn't file
1099's - None are required, since I'm a homeowner, not a contractor.

So, sorry, if you think it's an attack when I challenge lies and BS.
But it's just the truth. BTW, the compressor job was done years ago
and worked fine.

You and your side-jobber made out very well because someone else got
ripped-off.

Jabs


wrote in message
oups.com...
" instead you have attacked everyone who you didn't like what they
said. "

If you follow the thread, you will see that it all I did was say that I
had a friend of someone I knew who did A/C work for a living at a major
plant, replace my compressor for me. It was then I who was attacked by
a barrage of BS Like:

Hiring someone who does work on the side is illegal - it's not

That the guys is using his employer's tools - As far as I or anyone
else knows, this is false too. The fellow worked at a plant, not as a
A/C contractor doing homes and showed up in his own truck.

The guy is stealing the parts from work - Totally unfounded

That I broke the law because no permit was taken out - No permit is
required here or in most areas to replace a compressor

That I'm a tax cheat and in trouble with the IRS because I didn't file
1099's - None are required, since I'm a homeowner, not a contractor.

So, sorry, if you think it's an attack when I challenge lies and BS.
But it's just the truth. BTW, the compressor job was done years ago
and worked fine.

In article .com,
wrote:

Whoop dee frickin doo.

Doesn't matter. The side jobbers, hacks and moonlighters may or may not
have insurance, pay taxes, use their employers equipment, etc.
They aren't playing by the rules that legitimate contractors play by.

They are the yardstick used that legitimate contractors are measured by
in terms of price.
It's not fair and it's not right. You can defend it because you or
whoever got a cheap price but it was subsidized by someone somewhere.
I'd just like to say **** you very much.

I also never want to hear anybody bitch about the half assed trained
****ty job they got from the contractor they hired.
Assholes like you forced them to compete against their own or others
employee's.
**** you. You get what goes around.

Someone else can post the flip side.

--


Training costs money. Ask the last person you worked for. -me

"I'd just like to say **** you very much.

I also never want to hear anybody bitch about the half assed trained
****ty job they got from the contractor they hired.
Assholes like you forced them to compete against their own or others
employee's.
**** you. You get what goes around. "

Thank you very much for proving my point as to who is doing the
attacking. See, this is still a relatively free economy. People are
free to make choices. Getting an A/C compressor fixed by a guy you
know who does work part time is one of the choices out there. It's no
more evil than buying something on Ebay. Does the Ebay vendor have a
shop? Do you know if he's paying his taxes? Do you know where the
product came from and that it wasn't stolen? Do you know that he's not
using the PC at his regular job to check and run his Ebay auction? Do
you know what will happen if you have a problem after the sale? Yet,
local shops still compete successfully with Ebay vendors. And they do
it without getting down in the gutter, like you feel the need to do.

Given a choice of a guy like you that shows up to repair something or a
decent guy doing work on the side, I know which one I'd go with. Given
your hostility, I can only imagine how you handle customer complaints.

Vicki Szaszvari posted for all of us...

And I don't know how the rest of the country is, but the fat, lazy,
stupid techs here can always get a job at a school district.

Hey, I resemble those remarks...
--

Tekkie

"Just curious -- you always accept the low bid? For your car repair
and, say, masons and electricians? Drive a Yugo or Hyundai? Hire
mojados for roofing? "

No, of course not, but that has nothing to do with the bogus assertion
that anyone that comes in at a 22% lower price is a crook.

Oh yes it does! If they're a side-jobber, somebody's getting ripped off so
that you can get a 22% discount.

Jabs


wrote in message
oups.com...
"Just curious -- you always accept the low bid? For your car repair
and, say, masons and electricians? Drive a Yugo or Hyundai? Hire
mojados for roofing? "

No, of course not, but that has nothing to do with the bogus assertion
that anyone that comes in at a 22% lower price is a crook.

"Oh yes it does! If they're a side-jobber, somebody's getting ripped
off so
that you can get a 22% discount. "
Jabs


And you're a stupid ass. Any homeowner that's gone out for bids on
repairs knows it's not unusual to see a lot more than a 22% variation
among quotes. Following your logic, half the contractors in the US are
crooks.

In article . com,
wrote:
Thank you very much for proving my point as to who is doing the
attacking. See, this is still a relatively free economy. People are
free to make choices. Getting an A/C compressor fixed by a guy you
know who does work part time is one of the choices out there. It's no
more evil than buying something on Ebay. Does the Ebay vendor have a
shop? Do you know if he's paying his taxes? Do you know where the
product came from and that it wasn't stolen? Do you know that he's not
using the PC at his regular job to check and run his Ebay auction? Do
you know what will happen if you have a problem after the sale? Yet,
local shops still compete successfully with Ebay vendors. And they do
it without getting down in the gutter, like you feel the need to do.

Given a choice of a guy like you that shows up to repair something or a
decent guy doing work on the side, I know which one I'd go with. Given
your hostility, I can only imagine how you handle customer complaints.

It's illegal to contract or hold yourself out as a contractor if you are
unlicensed.
We must all be dumbasses for following the rules and regulations.

Got to have complaints before you have to handle them.

Those moonlighters are doing your job with skills we paid for them to
learn.
Then having them cut our throat by having to compete against these no
overhead SOB's just takes the cake.

--


Training costs money. Ask the last person you worked for. -me

You dumb ****!

Jabs


wrote in message
oups.com...
"Oh yes it does! If they're a side-jobber, somebody's getting ripped
off so
that you can get a 22% discount. "
Jabs


And you're a stupid ass. Any homeowner that's gone out for bids on
repairs knows it's not unusual to see a lot more than a 22% variation
among quotes. Following your logic, half the contractors in the US are
crooks.

"bill" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
wrote:
Thank you very much for proving my point as to who is doing the
attacking. See, this is still a relatively free economy. People are
free to make choices. Getting an A/C compressor fixed by a guy you
know who does work part time is one of the choices out there. It's no
more evil than buying something on Ebay. Does the Ebay vendor have a
shop? Do you know if he's paying his taxes? Do you know where the
product came from and that it wasn't stolen? Do you know that he's not
using the PC at his regular job to check and run his Ebay auction? Do
you know what will happen if you have a problem after the sale? Yet,
local shops still compete successfully with Ebay vendors. And they do
it without getting down in the gutter, like you feel the need to do.

Given a choice of a guy like you that shows up to repair something or a
decent guy doing work on the side, I know which one I'd go with. Given
your hostility, I can only imagine how you handle customer complaints.

It's illegal to contract or hold yourself out as a contractor if you are
unlicensed.
We must all be dumbasses for following the rules and regulations.

Got to have complaints before you have to handle them.

Those moonlighters are doing your job with skills we paid for them to
learn.
Then having them cut our throat by having to compete against these no
overhead SOB's just takes the cake.

Another reason I love our license board here..
Get caught with no license, face jail time.
Get caught subing a job to a licensed guy, where the one acting as a
contractor TO sub would need one, face jail time.
Get caught doing work as a homeowner without a proper license or permits,
and its twice the permit fee, fines, and possible jail time.


--


Training costs money. Ask the last person you worked for. -me

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Just curious -- you always accept the low bid? For your car repair
and, say, masons and electricians? Drive a Yugo or Hyundai? Hire
mojados for roofing? "

No, of course not, but that has nothing to do with the bogus assertion
that anyone that comes in at a 22% lower price is a crook.

I think you missed the boat here.

A licensed company does the work, they charge $100.
A non licensed person, moonlighting does the same work for $80

Who ripped you the hardest?


Easy....the guy that inst gonna do a damn thing for you when he does
something that is wrong.

" wrote in
message ...
Another reason I love our license board here..
Get caught with no license, face jail time.
Get caught subing a job to a licensed guy, where the one acting as a
contractor TO sub would need one, face jail time.
Get caught doing work as a homeowner without a proper license or permits,
and its twice the permit fee, fines, and possible jail time.

Where do you live? Moscow?

On Wed, 04 May 2005 04:34:11 GMT, Les Wilson wrote:
I'm also in Rochester, and got pretty much exactly the same equipment
installed three years ago, in a 50 year old house. Did the company happen
to have the initials I H A A C?

Yup - that'd be them. Up until now, we had their archrival J B do our
annual inspection... but their quotes for Carrier equipment was kinda high.
The clincher for me was the design of the heat exchanger on the Rheem
equipment (tubular steel compared to two pieces of sheet metal crimped
together on the Carrier), and the outdoor AC unit that was less prone to
damage from weed-whackers, soccer balls, etc.

Anyway, we paid something around $3800 to remove the old furnance,
do a bit of duct work, and install new furnance and the outside A/C unit.
( There was no A/C in the house, before. ) We have a 1300 sq ft house.
There
was one guy working most of the day, with a second one who came in
to help carry out the old, absolutely huge Perfection furnace that
was there before. Boy, am I glad I didn't have to help with THAT. ;-)

Hmmm... either prices have shot up considerably in the past few years, or
you had stuff with lower BTU's/tons put in given the smaller square footage.
What did you end up having installed? Any problems with it or I H A A C ??

I'll have to dig up the paperwork to find the BTU's of the furnance,
but IIRC, we got a 2 ton A/C.

No problems at all with the company. We've been very pleased with them.
The compressor on the A/C died after about a year, and they were out
within about an hour and replaced it. All labor and parts covered, of course.

The price we got may have been because of competition. There was a bit
of a price war going on between I and B at the time, for furnace/AC packages.

- Rich


- Rich

B-Hate-Me,
I'm will to bet that he lives in a place where the "consumer" is protected
by laws. You do know what a "consumer" is, don't you?

Jabs


"B-Hate-Me" BHateMe@home wrote in message
...

" wrote in
message ...
Another reason I love our license board here..
Get caught with no license, face jail time.
Get caught subing a job to a licensed guy, where the one acting as a
contractor TO sub would need one, face jail time.
Get caught doing work as a homeowner without a proper license or permits,
and its twice the permit fee, fines, and possible jail time.

Where do you live? Moscow?

(Snipped from)
Federal Document Clearing House Congressional Testimony
Capitol Hill Hearing Testimony

Thomas E. Bettcher, President and CEO of Copeland
(snip)
".......The number one problem of our contractors today is the inability to
hire new technicians. Another glaring problem facing our industry is product
"takeback," the return of products to the manufacturer. The number one cause
of product takeback is the incompetence of technicians during installation
leading to the return and replacement of units, even when there is
absolutely nothing wrong with the product. This unnecessary replacement of
good machinery drives up warranty costs and hurts our reputation, all
because the installer does not have enough training to install the system
properly in the first place......"


Rich,
After reading the above snippet from the President and CEO of Copeland
Corp's testimony to the U.S. Congress, maybe you will understand "price
wars" in HVAC installations a little better.

Jabs



"user" wrote:
No problems at all with the company. We've been very pleased with them.
The compressor on the A/C died after about a year, and they were out
within about an hour and replaced it. All labor and parts covered, of
course.

The price we got may have been because of competition. There was a bit
of a price war going on between I and B at the time, for furnace/AC
packages.

- Rich

In article ,
"Jabs" wrote:

B-Hate-Me,
I'm will to bet that he lives in a place where the "consumer" is protected
by laws. You do know what a "consumer" is, don't you?

Jabs

Yeah. It's the ones who thought they had a "good" guy who cut out their
limit on the furnace and then their belt broke.

Or the ones who over a few years had a few friends of a friend who works
for someone who basically came, collected and left with the same problem
still existing or offered a $6,000-$8,000 solution for an inefficient
compressor.

Or the one's who "got a deal" on a heat pump that's wired to the two
thermostat wires at the outdoor unit.

Or the one who got a deal on a new smaller furnace with a 3 ton blower
that has five tons of air conditioning.

or the 5 ton compressors that the "great tech" put in the 7.5 ton
systems and told the customer they make it more efficient.

Or the copper ott wire or 1/2 copper pipe used as fuses.

and on and on...

Consumers can bitch but most are actually getting what they pay for.
The cheapest **** money can buy.

--


Training costs money. Ask the last person you worked for. -me

Consumers can bitch but most are actually getting what they pay for.
The cheapest **** money can buy.

I've posted the story a thousand times, and I'm sure you will probably
just throw an insult at me anyway, Bill -

But there is the flip side.

I paid top $ to what I thought was a reputable company (been around for
20+ years), for what I thought was top of the line equipment for a top
notch install.

Turns out the "reputable" companys way of making a profit is to sell
high $ systems to unknowing consumers (in this case - me) and then send
out the cheapest labor they can find (2 or 3 teenage kids in my case).

When I asked the installers if they were going to put in new (whatever
the hell you call the lines that take the coolant from inside to
outside and back) they looked at me as if I were asking for the moon.
(The distance from the furnace to the compressor is probably 20', and
the ceiling joist spaces were wide open).

The day after they installed it, I had to have them back as all the
compressor wouldn't come on.

Why? All the coolant had leaked out from one of their solder (braze?)
joints.

There was an open splice made in the 120v supply line left hanging in
the ceiling. When I asked the tech about it - he said "oh, don't worry.
That won't ever hurt anything".

Even though I had a 2 stage stat installed for this 2 stage furnace - I
realized a month or so ago that my stat isn't controlling the stages.
How did I discover this? By downloading the tech sheets for my
thermostat, noting that there is a connection for each stage, then
looking at the thermostat and seeing there is no lead connected to the
stage 2 contact. Also that there weren't enough wires in the cable that
runs from the stat to the furnace to have the stat control it anyway.

The "top of the line" equipment (Lennox) turned out to be complete
crap, and this past winter is the first since being installed in '00 or
'01 that I havn't had to call for service. EVERY component has been
replaced at least once.

Which isn't the installers fault, I understand this. Except I will say
that their way of repairing a problem was to replace parts until the
problem went away. Which is why they have had to come back every year,
I suppose.

The one consolidation is they have replaced and/or repaired all the
problems at no cost to me, which I wouldn't have gotten if I had been
looking for a "deal".

And of course the lesson for the installing company (hopefully) is that
if you sell a system, then send out flunkees to install it - you will
lose your ass on the deal eventually. I'd say they spent roughly 24
hours (3 men one day) on the initial install. I don't think they are up
to 24 hours in repair time YET, but it's close, and they don't get a
cent for a minute of it. And I'm thinking the guys they send to service
it are paid a bit higher wage then the kids who did the install, but I
have no way to really know.

Lesson learned for me is never trust ANYBODY. I thought spending a lot
of money meant quality. WRONG.

As a homeowner, do your homework. Get some referrals from people who
have used the contractor you are thinking about using.

Don't look for the "deal". But don't let a supposedly reputable, long
established company BS you either.

(Snipped from)
Federal Document Clearing House Congressional Testimony
Capitol Hill Hearing Testimony

Thomas E. Bettcher, President and CEO of Copeland
(snip)
".......The number one problem of our contractors today is the inability to
hire new technicians. Another glaring problem facing our industry is product
"takeback," the return of products to the manufacturer. The number one cause
of product takeback is the incompetence of technicians during installation
leading to the return and replacement of units, even when there is
absolutely nothing wrong with the product. This unnecessary replacement of
good machinery drives up warranty costs and hurts our reputation, all
because the installer does not have enough training to install the system
properly in the first place......"




"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Consumers can bitch but most are actually getting what they pay for.
The cheapest **** money can buy.

I've posted the story a thousand times, and I'm sure you will probably
just throw an insult at me anyway, Bill -

But there is the flip side.

I paid top $ to what I thought was a reputable company (been around for
20+ years), for what I thought was top of the line equipment for a top
notch install.

Turns out the "reputable" companys way of making a profit is to sell
high $ systems to unknowing consumers (in this case - me) and then send
out the cheapest labor they can find (2 or 3 teenage kids in my case).

When I asked the installers if they were going to put in new (whatever
the hell you call the lines that take the coolant from inside to
outside and back) they looked at me as if I were asking for the moon.
(The distance from the furnace to the compressor is probably 20', and
the ceiling joist spaces were wide open).

The day after they installed it, I had to have them back as all the
compressor wouldn't come on.

Why? All the coolant had leaked out from one of their solder (braze?)
joints.

There was an open splice made in the 120v supply line left hanging in
the ceiling. When I asked the tech about it - he said "oh, don't worry.
That won't ever hurt anything".

Even though I had a 2 stage stat installed for this 2 stage furnace - I
realized a month or so ago that my stat isn't controlling the stages.
How did I discover this? By downloading the tech sheets for my
thermostat, noting that there is a connection for each stage, then
looking at the thermostat and seeing there is no lead connected to the
stage 2 contact. Also that there weren't enough wires in the cable that
runs from the stat to the furnace to have the stat control it anyway.

The "top of the line" equipment (Lennox) turned out to be complete
crap, and this past winter is the first since being installed in '00 or
'01 that I havn't had to call for service. EVERY component has been
replaced at least once.

Which isn't the installers fault, I understand this. Except I will say
that their way of repairing a problem was to replace parts until the
problem went away. Which is why they have had to come back every year,
I suppose.

The one consolidation is they have replaced and/or repaired all the
problems at no cost to me, which I wouldn't have gotten if I had been
looking for a "deal".

And of course the lesson for the installing company (hopefully) is that
if you sell a system, then send out flunkees to install it - you will
lose your ass on the deal eventually. I'd say they spent roughly 24
hours (3 men one day) on the initial install. I don't think they are up
to 24 hours in repair time YET, but it's close, and they don't get a
cent for a minute of it. And I'm thinking the guys they send to service
it are paid a bit higher wage then the kids who did the install, but I
have no way to really know.

Lesson learned for me is never trust ANYBODY. I thought spending a lot
of money meant quality. WRONG.

As a homeowner, do your homework. Get some referrals from people who
have used the contractor you are thinking about using.

Don't look for the "deal". But don't let a supposedly reputable, long
established company BS you either.

In article .com,
"Matt" wrote:

I've posted the story a thousand times, and I'm sure you will probably
just throw an insult at me anyway, Bill -
snip
Lesson learned for me is never trust ANYBODY. I thought spending a lot
of money meant quality. WRONG.

As a homeowner, do your homework. Get some referrals from people who
have used the contractor you are thinking about using.

Don't look for the "deal". But don't let a supposedly reputable, long
established company BS you either.

Actually that sounds about par for the course.

--


Training costs money. Ask the last person you worked for. -me

" wrote in
message ...

"bill" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
wrote:
Thank you very much for proving my point as to who is doing the
attacking. See, this is still a relatively free economy. People are
free to make choices. Getting an A/C compressor fixed by a guy you
know who does work part time is one of the choices out there. It's no
more evil than buying something on Ebay. Does the Ebay vendor have a
shop? Do you know if he's paying his taxes? Do you know where the
product came from and that it wasn't stolen? Do you know that he's not
using the PC at his regular job to check and run his Ebay auction? Do
you know what will happen if you have a problem after the sale? Yet,
local shops still compete successfully with Ebay vendors. And they do
it without getting down in the gutter, like you feel the need to do.

Given a choice of a guy like you that shows up to repair something or a
decent guy doing work on the side, I know which one I'd go with. Given
your hostility, I can only imagine how you handle customer complaints.

It's illegal to contract or hold yourself out as a contractor if you are
unlicensed.
We must all be dumbasses for following the rules and regulations.

Got to have complaints before you have to handle them.

Those moonlighters are doing your job with skills we paid for them to
learn.
Then having them cut our throat by having to compete against these no
overhead SOB's just takes the cake.


This is Turtle.

Why thank you Steve for showing Billy bob's reply so I can reply to him.

well to Billy bob. I don't have anything to say to you for I have you PLONKED.

TURTLE

"Vicki Szaszvari" wrote in message
...


v wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:12:03 GMT, someone wrote:


We recently had a new gas furnace and central AC installed. Paid about
$4700 from a local well known company.....

A second quote from another local company that's well known was anywhere

from $4700 to $6500...

You should have paid $4700 if you wanted a well known local company to
do it. You could have paid less if you were willing to have a moonlighting
guy who may even be using his employer's tools and equipment to do the
job.

Are the moonlighting guys authorized installers if there are any
warranty issues?

Will your homeowner's insurance cover it if the unit is wired or installed in
a faulty manner that results in a fire? Several buildings a year here have
fires that start in the air conditioners.


This is Turtle.

I have seen this happen before. There was a fellow out in the country that had a
fellow replace a air handler and condenser units and the air handlers was not
wired right and caused the fire which burn the house down. State Farm paid for
the replacement of the house but filed on the hvac contractor's Contractor
Liability insurance to recover their loses on replacing the house. The fellow is
out of business now and has left town but the last i heard State Farm and the
hvac fellow's contractor Liability insurance company was fighting it out over
who was going to pay to replace the house.

In Louisiana we have Contractor liability insurance which is to protect the hvac
contractor and
home owner's insurance companys from deals like this. If you do any job on the
side and don't have insurance. The customer can file on you personally after
finding out you don't have contractor liability insurance which is required to
ever have a company licences, operator permitt, or sales tax # . If he is doing
it on the side. the customer can sue the fellow across the street helping out
and the warehouse where the equipment come from. Yes I said the warehouse who
sold it to him to install but only if the fellow across the street can't pay the
cost.

Here in Louisiana if there is a compressor failure on a unit in the first 12
months and the installer company goes belly up or shuts down. The Warehouse is
responciable for labor to change it on the first year free labor. Also if the
warehouse sells the unit to a customer direct. The warehouse has to stand behind
the first 12 months free labor on the unit and they did not install it.

It is always different in different areas of the country.

TURTLE

You looked into local laws and regulations, right? For example, in
Phoenix, Arizona, the limit for work by a NON-CONTRACTOR is $750, parts
and labor. Go ahead and Google our Registrar of Contractors in Phoenix
and ou'll see mug shots of those who have been busted for this.

And $750 won't pay for much of a compressor changeout, certainly not
one done the right way with evacuation and driers.


wrote:
" instead you have attacked everyone who you didn't like what they
said. "

If you follow the thread, you will see that it all I did was say that I
had a friend of someone I knew who did A/C work for a living at a major
plant, replace my compressor for me. It was then I who was attacked by
a barrage of BS Like:

Hiring someone who does work on the side is illegal - it's not

That the guys is using his employer's tools - As far as I or anyone
else knows, this is false too. The fellow worked at a plant, not as a
A/C contractor doing homes and showed up in his own truck.

The guy is stealing the parts from work - Totally unfounded

That I broke the law because no permit was taken out - No permit is
required here or in most areas to replace a compressor

That I'm a tax cheat and in trouble with the IRS because I didn't file
1099's - None are required, since I'm a homeowner, not a contractor.

So, sorry, if you think it's an attack when I challenge lies and BS.
But it's just the truth. BTW, the compressor job was done years ago
and worked fine.

wrote:

"Just curious -- you always accept the low bid? For your car repair
and, say, masons and electricians? Drive a Yugo or Hyundai? Hire
mojados for roofing? "

No, of course not, but that has nothing to do with the bogus assertion
that anyone that comes in at a 22% lower price is a crook.

There is usually a reason that they are that much cheaper. For
example, new techs are not worth what experienced ones are. Also,
cutting corners in terms of equipment or parts makes it cheaper -- I can
install a POS Bristol cheaper than a Copeland scroll. And YOU wouldn't
know the difference; nor would you be able to tell if I charged it
properly or installed one or more driers. You would have no clue if
your contactor needed to be changed. And you wouldn't know if the tech
had a license to handle the refrigerant, or if he even used a recovery
machine(or just vented it to the atmosphere, a felony.)

But what the heck would YOU care? You saved a couple of bucks.