On Jun 1, 9:20*am, "john hamilton" wrote:
We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
the top.

'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at £260.

The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
defrosting as often as normal.


Let's look at some general issues. Does this solution target a problem
that you will have?

Allowing moist air to enter the freezer will allow frost to build up,
increasing the need to defrost.

Will you be opening the lid of the freezer frequently?

Once open, will you have the freezer lid open for long periods of
time?

How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
the need to defrost.

Modern fridge and freezer seals are quite air-tight. Do you have cold
air leaking from your current fridge? Probably not.

In article , spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 1, 9:20=A0am, "john hamilton" wrote:
We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid o=
n
the top.

'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at =A3260.

The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, afte=
r
the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not n=
eed
defrosting as often as normal.


Let's look at some general issues. Does this solution target a problem
that you will have?

Allowing moist air to enter the freezer will allow frost to build up,
increasing the need to defrost.

Will you be opening the lid of the freezer frequently?

Once open, will you have the freezer lid open for long periods of
time?

How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
the need to defrost.

Modern fridge and freezer seals are quite air-tight. Do you have cold
air leaking from your current fridge? Probably not.


We had little problem with one opened little.

A tip I learn from the lab. Get flat sheeting to put under the
lid, so air does not get whirled when you quickly open it up.
Just slide the separate sections out of the way for access. Given a 6 foot
freezer, you can make 2-4 sections. This can also be insulation
foam sheeting. 1/2 inch. You should get very little infiltration.

greg

spamtrap1888 wrote:

How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
the need to defrost.

Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
are cold. For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
whateveritis you set it at.

Warm, humid cellar in summer? Never met the beast.

Andy

On Jun 1, 11:02*am, Andy Champ wrote:
spamtrap1888 wrote:

How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
the need to defrost.

Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
are cold. *For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
whateveritis you set it at.

Yes, warmer air can hold more moisture than colder air. I believe I
already typed that.


Warm, humid cellar in summer? *Never met the beast.


Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter. The more moisture in the room ambient,
the more moisture will enter the freezer when the lid id opened.

In article , spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

Lou

In article , Lou Decruss wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article
,
spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
consider a chest freezer. That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
all kinds of crap on top of...

Doug Miller wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.

In article , "Rod Speed" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.

I guess it's a question of "compared to what?" -- I took him to mean that
cellars will be warmer in summer, and cooler in winter, than other parts of
the house.

If he meant that the cellar is warmer in summer than the cellar is in winter,
yes, that's obviously true.

Doug Miller wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Doug Miller wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote
Andy Champ wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote:

How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept?
Cellars tend to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more
moisture than cold winter air. Opening the lid in a humid
cellar in the summertime will increase the need to defrost.

Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
are cold. For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
whateveritis you set it at.

Yes, warmer air can hold more moisture than colder air.
I believe I already typed that.

Warm, humid cellar in summer? Never met the beast.

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.

I guess it's a question of "compared to what?"

Its obvious he meant compared with those other seasons.

-- I took him to mean that cellars will be warmer in summer,
and cooler in winter, than other parts of the house.

More fool you.

If he meant that the cellar is warmer in summer than the cellar is in winter, yes, that's obviously true.

And thats clearly what he meant given the context that you deleted from the quoting and I have restored.

In article , The Real Bev wrote:
On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:

Lou wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:
wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
consider a chest freezer.

The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.

That's basically irrelevant. You *might* lose five to ten cubic feet of cold
air when opening an upright freezer -- let's call it ten. Ten cubic feet of
air has a mass of around one pound. That's not going to make any noticeable
difference in the temperature inside, unless you *leave* the door open.

That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
all kinds of crap on top of...

And you think that's a bad thing?

Makes it kinda hard to open the lid.

Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
away. If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.

Or just get an upright freezer.

Horizontal space should NEVER be wasted.

Which of course is yet another reason for *not* getting a chest freezer: it
takes up twice as much floor space as an upright.

In article , Lou Decruss wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article
,
spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient. All I know are not self defrosting, more
efficiency, and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.

greg

In article , (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

The statement is perfectly true. Think about the reference temperature..

greg

On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 19:14:39 -0700, The Real Bev
wrote:

On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:

Lou wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:
wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
consider a chest freezer.

The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.

That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
all kinds of crap on top of...

And you think that's a bad thing? Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
away.

That's just silly.

If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.

They'd have to be mounted pretty high to allow clearance for the door.
Do you recommend climbing on top the freezer to get to the cabinets?
I'm not going to look up freezer specs but it doesn't sound like a
useful setup.

Lou

In article , (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Lou Decruss
wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article
,
spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
consider a chest freezer. That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
all kinds of crap on top of...

When you take something out, its a place to work on food items.
It does consume more floor space.

greg

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , Lou Decruss
wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article
,
spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient. All I know are not self defrosting, more
efficiency, and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.

greg

I have always complained about self defrosting, fan driven stuff.
And its always seems to be in the defrost mode when I
am putting warmer food in from the store. it should never go
on defrost during wakeing hours. the time should be able to
be set by the user. Like 3 AM for instance.
I have measure temps of the 45 minuite defrost cycle
and they rise pretty high, and ice cream is always softer
after this occurs. If your kids are going in and out on a warm day during
a defrost cycle, you beter watch out.


greg

GregS wrote
Lou Decruss wrote
(Doug Miller) wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient.

Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

All I know are not self defrosting,

Plenty of upright freezers are too.

more efficiency,

Only marginally.

and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.

Thats a myth.

Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

GregS wrote
(Doug Miller) wrote
Lou Decruss wrote
(Doug Miller) wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote:

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why
anyone would even consider a chest freezer. That large flat
area is such a tempting place to set all kinds of crap on top of...

When you take something out, its a place to work on food items.

I prefer to have adequate bench space in the kitchen for that.

It does consume more floor space.

So in practice that isnt likely to be much use even if you are very short of bench space.

In article , "Rod Speed" wrote:
GregS wrote
Lou Decruss wrote
(Doug Miller) wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient.

Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

Nearly all the air drops out of an upright. The thing is, air
has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores the absence
of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.

All I know are not self defrosting,

Plenty of upright freezers are too.

more efficiency,.
Thats a myth.

Wrong.
The circulation fan is the main cause.
I know by use. The old refridgerators have less effect
on partially closed containers. Its hard to seal a lot of them.
I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time, and I
keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??
Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct experiance.

Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,
and also a walk in pantry.
One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise normal
looking medium sized kitchen. Nice. I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.

GregS wrote
Rod Speed wrote
GregS wrote
Lou Decruss wrote
(Doug Miller) wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in

summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient.

Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

Nearly all the air drops out of an upright.

Yes, but thats very little mass, even with an empty freezer.

The thing is, air has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores
the absence of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.

Not really, because even with say 10 door openings, the mass of
air thats lost is trivial compared with the mass of whats in the freezer.

All I know are not self defrosting,

Plenty of upright freezers are too.

more efficiency,.

Thats a myth.

Wrong.

Nope.

The circulation fan is the main cause.

There isnt necessarily any circulation fan at all. None
of my upright freezers have any circulation fan at all.

And even with a fan, that uses very little energy.

I know by use.

You clearly dont.

The old refridgerators have less effect on partially closed containers.

Thats just the circulation of the air effect.

Plenty of upright freezers have no circulation fan, none of mine have one.

Its hard to seal a lot of them.

Its completely trivial to seal them all.

I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time,

Mine dont. I put the meat in the bags when the meat is wet
and the meat sticks to the plastic and they dont expand.

and I keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??

Nope, just evidence that a ziplock isnt a perfect seal.

There are alternatives to ziplock bags.

Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct experiance.

But you dont understand the basics, or even that plenty of upright
freezers have no fans or self defrost either. None of mine have either.

Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,

Yes, that is what I have, but separate doors isnt that much worse
and has some advantages efficiency wise, two less external surfaces.

and also a walk in pantry.

I prefer a different approach myself, one wall covered with shelves.

Even very large pull out wheeled shelves a bit like books in a bookshelf has some advantages too.

One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise normal looking medium sized kitchen. Nice.

I dont care what it looks like, what I care about is how well it works.

I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.

Sounds like overkill.

In article , "Rod Speed" wrote:
GregS wrote
Rod Speed wrote
GregS wrote
Lou Decruss wrote
(Doug Miller) wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in

summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient.

Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

Nearly all the air drops out of an upright.

Yes, but thats very little mass, even with an empty freezer.

The thing is, air has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores
the absence of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.

Not really, because even with say 10 door openings, the mass of
air thats lost is trivial compared with the mass of whats in the freezer.

All I know are not self defrosting,

Plenty of upright freezers are too.

more efficiency,.

Thats a myth.

Wrong.

Nope.

The circulation fan is the main cause.

There isnt necessarily any circulation fan at all. None
of my upright freezers have any circulation fan at all.

And even with a fan, that uses very little energy.

I know by use.

You clearly dont.

The old refridgerators have less effect on partially closed containers.

Thats just the circulation of the air effect.

Plenty of upright freezers have no circulation fan, none of mine have one.

Its hard to seal a lot of them.

Its completely trivial to seal them all.

I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time,

Mine dont. I put the meat in the bags when the meat is wet
and the meat sticks to the plastic and they dont expand.

and I keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??

Nope, just evidence that a ziplock isnt a perfect seal.

There are alternatives to ziplock bags.

Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct
experiance.

But you dont understand the basics, or even that plenty of upright
freezers have no fans or self defrost either. None of mine have either.

Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,

Yes, that is what I have, but separate doors isnt that much worse
and has some advantages efficiency wise, two less external surfaces.

and also a walk in pantry.

I prefer a different approach myself, one wall covered with shelves.

Even very large pull out wheeled shelves a bit like books in a bookshelf has
some advantages too.

One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise normal
looking medium sized kitchen. Nice.

I dont care what it looks like, what I care about is how well it works.

I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.

Sounds like overkill.

Dry out and flavor, is my concern both refridgerator and freezer.
I have not run into any self defrosting unit without a fan.
We are talking about self defrosting.

greg

GregS wrote
Rod Speed wrote
GregS wrote
Rod Speed wrote
GregS wrote
Lou Decruss wrote
(Doug Miller) wrote
spamtrap1888 wrote

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in

summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient.

Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

Nearly all the air drops out of an upright.

Yes, but thats very little mass, even with an empty freezer.

The thing is, air has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores
the absence of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.

Not really, because even with say 10 door openings, the mass of
air thats lost is trivial compared with the mass of whats in the freezer.

All I know are not self defrosting,

Plenty of upright freezers are too.

more efficiency,.

Thats a myth.

Wrong.

Nope.

The circulation fan is the main cause.

There isnt necessarily any circulation fan at all. None
of my upright freezers have any circulation fan at all.

And even with a fan, that uses very little energy.

I know by use.

You clearly dont.

The old refridgerators have less effect on partially closed containers.

Thats just the circulation of the air effect.

Plenty of upright freezers have no circulation fan, none of mine have one.

Its hard to seal a lot of them.

Its completely trivial to seal them all.

I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time,

Mine dont. I put the meat in the bags when the meat is wet
and the meat sticks to the plastic and they dont expand.

and I keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??

Nope, just evidence that a ziplock isnt a perfect seal.

There are alternatives to ziplock bags.

Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct experiance.

But you dont understand the basics, or even that plenty of upright
freezers have no fans or self defrost either. None of mine have either.

Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,

Yes, that is what I have, but separate doors isnt that much worse
and has some advantages efficiency wise, two less external surfaces.

and also a walk in pantry.

I prefer a different approach myself, one wall covered with shelves.

Even very large pull out wheeled shelves a bit like books in a
bookshelf has some advantages too.

One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise
normal looking medium sized kitchen. Nice.

I dont care what it looks like, what I care about is how well it works.

I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.

Sounds like overkill.

Dry out and flavor, is my concern both refridgerator and freezer.

Yes, but thats trivially fixable. Just put the meat in plastic bags when
still wet so the plastic sticks to the meat, you dont get freezer burn.

Get proper containers for the other stuff, I use glass jars that marmalade, relish etc comes in.

Get decent a frost free fridge so there never is any frost forming on the
food and there is no heating of the food when auto defrosting either.

I have not run into any self defrosting unit without a fan.

I didnt say self defrosting without a fan. I JUST said no fan. There are plenty of those.

We are talking about self defrosting.

Nope. There is also frost free.