Hello,
My wife and I just bought our first house, contingent on inspections. It's
an old two story farm house (c1900) but has many upgrades like new
mechanicals, drywall, most plumbing and wiring, and new windows (although
they're vinyl).
However, the inspection was disappointing. The house has settled quite a
bit. In the inspectors own words, " gabled end of upstairs leaning 4 inches
over 18 feet of height". The real question here is will the foundation
continue to sink. I talked with the inspector a couple of hours later (with
no wife or real estate agents) and I asked him point blank if the foundation
should worry us. His reply was, "I would be very concerned" (with the word
"very" stressed a bit).
We realize it's an old house and that there are certain personality traits
we will have to fix or learn to live with (such as only 100 amps coming into
the main box), but I don't want to get stuck with a house that's falling
over.
The house has been jacked up on the sinking end and wedged, and done pretty
well. The basement is a bit of a puzzle. There is old brick foundation
mixed with newer concrete and some block. Some bracing in the basement
needs to be upgraded with floor jacks, etc. and a couple of the floor joists
have completely pulled away from the box sill (although this area's support
has been supplemented with a steel I-beam, it still makes me nervous). I'm
also wondering if the gutters are a tell-tale sign of the foundation
problem. All the guttering has been redirected to empty into a cistern on
the opposite side (opposite the foundation issue). Could this have been an
attempt to stop water from moving the earth around that side of the house?
Also, I think I just realized something; the foundation is sinking on the
south west corner. The hanging floor joists are in the north west corner.
Is this the house sinking away from its opposite wall?
My wife and I are really struggling with this. The place is just the right
distance from town, overlooks a wind farm, and has a large sturdy barn with
a partially renovated loft (we are both artists).
We have to make our decision by Monday morning (this being Saturday morning
where we are). But I know our agent is going to want an answer before then.
Any and all help appreciated.
Thanks

Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:42:48 -0500 from Mac marmac2
@mindspringnospam.com:
I talked with the inspector a couple of hours later (with
no wife or real estate agents) and I asked him point blank if the foundation
should worry us. His reply was, "I would be very concerned" (with the word
"very" stressed a bit).

To me, that seems to be the crucial two sentences in your article. It
sounds to me like he's telling you not to buy it.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

In article ,
Stan Brown wrote:

Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:42:48 -0500 from Mac marmac2
@mindspringnospam.com:
I talked with the inspector a couple of hours later (with
no wife or real estate agents) and I asked him point blank if the
foundation
should worry us. His reply was, "I would be very concerned" (with the word
"very" stressed a bit).

To me, that seems to be the crucial two sentences in your article. It
sounds to me like he's telling you not to buy it.

I'll second that motion. This is an extreme buyer's market right
now. You should be able to hold off a bit, and get the exact perfect
place, and pay tens of thousands under the normal market price to get
in. You don't have to settle for a house that is falling down.

In my opinion, without having visited it, but based on what I read,
I think the only way to save this house is to jack it up, remove
the existing foundation and basement, remove the muck under the
house, bring in a new pea-gravel and crushed gravel base, pour
new stable foundations, build a new basement, and set the house
back down on the new foundation. From there, you can then start
addressing the interior damage where the joists and stringers
are pulling away from the walls. I'd say $150K should do the trick.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

John and all,

I have come to learn that you're correct, it is a buye's market, even if my
real estate agent says otherwise.
We don't have time, not really. We've lived in the our current rental house
for 7 years but we got the word at the beginning of the month that we have
to be out by then of Oct, the landlords want to move back in. I've spent
weeks looking at houses, talking with "people in the know", (contractors,
inspectors, etc.), reading books, and researching online. We wanted the
farm house for several reasons besides just wanting to get back to the
country. My wife's two brothers are house builders but live too far away to
inspect the place. My brain (not my gut) is telling me to walk away from
this place and not look back.
Renting again is a possibility but we now have a few cats and that makes it
more complicated. And we don't want to put another 65k toward someone
else's mortgage.
We have a couple of houses inside our town that we have been considering as
the fall-back position. They're not ideal but I've come to learn that what
we can smartly afford and "ideal" aren't the same thing.
Anyway, thanks for the rant, it's been a long month.
150k on top of what we'd be paying already? Homey don't play that!
-Mac

In article ,
"Mac" wrote:

John and all,

I have come to learn that you're correct, it is a buye's market, even if my
real estate agent says otherwise.
We don't have time, not really. We've lived in the our current rental house
for 7 years but we got the word at the beginning of the month that we have
to be out by then of Oct, the landlords want to move back in.

You can always find short-term housing. Put your stuff into storage.
Find a furnished corporate rental. Or see if someone will write you a
90 day lease. Even a motel might work. Here in the big city, we have
national chains that have rooms for $200 a week. It will not be the
4 Seasons, but at least one of them is almost brand new.

The point is to not rush into a $100,000 mistake in an attempt to avoid
paying $750 in rent.

I've spent
weeks looking at houses, talking with "people in the know", (contractors,
inspectors, etc.), reading books, and researching online. We wanted the
farm house for several reasons besides just wanting to get back to the
country. My wife's two brothers are house builders but live too far away to
inspect the place. My brain (not my gut) is telling me to walk away from
this place and not look back.

Think about playing high-stakes poker. If you don't know who the
patsy is in the game, then you are the patsy. Don't let these
real estate professionals gang up on you, and end up screwing you
into this deal because you are in a hurry.

Renting again is a possibility but we now have a few cats and that makes it
more complicated. And we don't want to put another 65k toward someone
else's mortgage.

That is bad thinking. Renting is now throwing away money or paying
someone else's mortgage. The fact is that rent is a fantastic deal
right now. Most landlords are losing money at the moment, especially
those with 1 and 2 unit homes. Their loss is your gain. Just look
at rents around town, and figure out if the rent really could make
the payments on such a house. As an example, there is a rental complex
near where I live. They rent townhouses for $1200 a month. These same
townhouse plans are available for sale for $190,000 to $210,000. By the
time you pay the mortgage, upkeep, fund reserve funds, pay for seasonal
services, and pay taxes, you are probably looking at over $2000 a month.
These renters are making out like bandits.

We have a couple of houses inside our town that we have been considering as
the fall-back position. They're not ideal but I've come to learn that what
we can smartly afford and "ideal" aren't the same thing.

Prices have just started to fall. In another 6 months, you may see
at least another 10% drop, maybe more. Here in the twin cities, there
are 10 houses on the market for every buyer. This will get worse as
all the foreclosure houses start sprouting for sale signs. Bottom line?
What you cannot afford today may become affordable in the next 6 months.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

John,
You make very good points. We have considered a short term rental and have
not, as yet, ruled that out. It's difficult to get a straight answer on our
local housing market. I've seen houses on the market for months and others
that sell in a week. Building in our area has actually increased but I
doubt there have been any recent bidding wars for houses.
I believe it's time to take a deep breath and take a step back. I have a
list of rentals, just haven't looked into it very deep.
Thanks for your advice.
-Mac

In article , John
A. Weeks III says...

In article ,
"Mac" wrote:

John and all,

I have come to learn that you're correct, it is a buye's market, even if my
real estate agent says otherwise.
We don't have time, not really. We've lived in the our current rental house
for 7 years but we got the word at the beginning of the month that we have
to be out by then of Oct, the landlords want to move back in.

You can always find short-term housing. Put your stuff into storage.
Find a furnished corporate rental. Or see if someone will write you a
90 day lease. Even a motel might work. Here in the big city, we have
national chains that have rooms for $200 a week. It will not be the
4 Seasons, but at least one of them is almost brand new.

The point is to not rush into a $100,000 mistake in an attempt to avoid
paying $750 in rent.

I've spent
weeks looking at houses, talking with "people in the know", (contractors,
inspectors, etc.), reading books, and researching online. We wanted the
farm house for several reasons besides just wanting to get back to the
country. My wife's two brothers are house builders but live too far away to
inspect the place. My brain (not my gut) is telling me to walk away from
this place and not look back.

Think about playing high-stakes poker. If you don't know who the
patsy is in the game, then you are the patsy. Don't let these
real estate professionals gang up on you, and end up screwing you
into this deal because you are in a hurry.

Renting again is a possibility but we now have a few cats and that makes it
more complicated. And we don't want to put another 65k toward someone
else's mortgage.

That is bad thinking. Renting is now throwing away money or paying
someone else's mortgage. The fact is that rent is a fantastic deal
right now. Most landlords are losing money at the moment, especially
those with 1 and 2 unit homes. Their loss is your gain. Just look
at rents around town, and figure out if the rent really could make
the payments on such a house. As an example, there is a rental complex
near where I live. They rent townhouses for $1200 a month. These same
townhouse plans are available for sale for $190,000 to $210,000. By the
time you pay the mortgage, upkeep, fund reserve funds, pay for seasonal
services, and pay taxes, you are probably looking at over $2000 a month.
These renters are making out like bandits.

Hear hear. I've seen some folks close to me buy into the "renting is throwing
money a way" jingo, who should NOT have owned houses (at least not right then)
and get sunk. Either financially or in other ways, as they find homeownership
stressful.

Get thee, Mac, to another rental, breathe a sigh of relief, and take your time
finding your home. Renting is a perfectly valid thing to do, short term for a
lot of people, long term for a few.

Banty

Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:11:34 -0500 from Mac marmac2
@mindspringnospam.com:
We've lived in the our current rental house
for 7 years but we got the word at the beginning of the month that we have
to be out by then of Oct, the landlords want to move back in.

I'm assuming you have no written lease, but even so you very likely
have longer than that.

Did they tell you this at the end of August or at the beginning of
September. Many landlords and tenants think that 30 days' notice to
vacate is sufficient on a monthly lease. In most states it's not:
it's the end of a complete rental period. For instance, if they gave
you notice on Sept 2 and your rent is due on the first of the month,
then the September period has already started and the complete rental
period is October, so you have till October 31.

If you're in some states (including, I believe California), the law
may give you even longer. Call your city or county government and
ask.

But *whenever* you have to be out, don't rush to buy a marginal house
by then. Over the long run you are MUCH better off to store your
belongings and live in a motel for a month if it means getting a
better house.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:42:48 -0500 from Mac marmac2
@mindspringnospam.com:
I talked with the inspector a couple of hours later (with
no wife or real estate agents) and I asked him point blank if the
foundation
should worry us. His reply was, "I would be very concerned" (with the
word
"very" stressed a bit).

To me, that seems to be the crucial two sentences in your article. It
sounds to me like he's telling you not to buy it.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

Understood, thank you.

Sounds a lot like our house when we bought it -- more than 18" out of
plumb over the length of the house, foundation broken wide open in a few
places. We took the plunge and bought it anyway, then hired a
contractor to jack it up, tear out the old block foundation, and put in
a new continuous concrete foundation with reinforced cross-walls and an
extra-wide footing.

Total cost of that project was about $17,000 plus quite a few hours of
our own labor assisting the contractor. We had bids up to $60,000 for
the same work, went with the most experienced bidder instead of the most
expensive.

Of course, with a hunderd-year-old house, the foundation was just the
start....

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

Sometimes when a structure is not plumb, the problem is not in the
foundation; sometimes the lack of plumb is because the structure
is not square. It could have been built crooked, or it could have
major structural problems, or both.

Short answer: it may be okay to buy a house with a major problem,
but not if you (1) don't understand the problem and (2) don't have
the resources to fix it.

Good luck,

Una

"Mac" wrote in message
...
Hello,
My wife and I just bought our first house, contingent on inspections.
It's
an old two story farm house (c1900) but has many upgrades like new
mechanicals, drywall, most plumbing and wiring, and new windows (although
they're vinyl).
However, the inspection was disappointing. The house has settled quite a
bit. In the inspectors own words, " gabled end of upstairs leaning 4
inches
over 18 feet of height". The real question here is will the foundation
continue to sink. I talked with the inspector a couple of hours later
(with
no wife or real estate agents) and I asked him point blank if the
foundation
should worry us. His reply was, "I would be very concerned" (with the
word
"very" stressed a bit).
We realize it's an old house and that there are certain personality traits
we will have to fix or learn to live with (such as only 100 amps coming
into
the main box), but I don't want to get stuck with a house that's falling
over.
The house has been jacked up on the sinking end and wedged, and done
pretty
well. The basement is a bit of a puzzle. There is old brick foundation
mixed with newer concrete and some block. Some bracing in the basement
needs to be upgraded with floor jacks, etc. and a couple of the floor
joists
have completely pulled away from the box sill (although this area's
support
has been supplemented with a steel I-beam, it still makes me nervous).
I'm
also wondering if the gutters are a tell-tale sign of the foundation
problem. All the guttering has been redirected to empty into a cistern on
the opposite side (opposite the foundation issue). Could this have been
an
attempt to stop water from moving the earth around that side of the house?
Also, I think I just realized something; the foundation is sinking on the
south west corner. The hanging floor joists are in the north west corner.

Is this the house sinking away from its opposite wall?
My wife and I are really struggling with this. The place is just the
right
distance from town, overlooks a wind farm, and has a large sturdy barn
with
a partially renovated loft (we are both artists).
We have to make our decision by Monday morning (this being Saturday
morning
where we are). But I know our agent is going to want an answer before
then.
Any and all help appreciated.
Thanks



You will need a bunch of money to fix this and in the process you may not be
able to live there so you may wind up staying in a rental until the work is
finished. I'd keep looking. Go to several real estate agents as not all
properties are multiple listed. As others have suggested, put the bulk of
your stuff in storage and get a small rental until you find something else.

What part of the country are you in? I'm in New Jersey and properties are
not moving very quickly.