I just discovered some strange wiring in my house. When we moved in,
the breaker box was only 60 amps, so you can imagine the density of
the various electrical loads on each circuit. One 15 amp circuit now
serves the laundry room, including a shoplight, and the dishwasher
upstairs, plus an upstairs bathroom, and who knows what else.

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

The dryer is a 220V item, to it needs both legs of the 220 circuit.
A hair dryer is a 110V item, so it only needs one leg of a 220
circuit. What is probably going on is that you have a 220 circuit
that feeds the dryer. The washer (normally a 110V item) is
piggybacked on one side of that circuit, and the bathroom is
piggybacked on the other side of that circuit. When the hair
dryer came on, it blew one side of the 220. That left the other
side running, so the washer was OK, and the clothes driver was
running on half power.

The only way this can happen is if the dryer is wired to 2
independent breakers. Normally, a circuit like this has a
pair of breakers that is ganged together, so when one side
blows, the other side is tripped off.

This is a pretty easy thing to fix, but that is only one
of your problems. Your wiring system is a fire waiting to
happen, and you need a rewire. If I am wrong, then something
even worse is going on, and my statement on being a fire
hazzard goes double.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:19:33 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"
wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

The dryer is a 220V item, to it needs both legs of the 220 circuit.
A hair dryer is a 110V item, so it only needs one leg of a 220
circuit. What is probably going on is that you have a 220 circuit
that feeds the dryer. The washer (normally a 110V item) is
piggybacked on one side of that circuit, and the bathroom is
piggybacked on the other side of that circuit. When the hair
dryer came on, it blew one side of the 220. That left the other
side running, so the washer was OK, and the clothes driver was
running on half power.

The only way this can happen is if the dryer is wired to 2
independent breakers. Normally, a circuit like this has a
pair of breakers that is ganged together, so when one side
blows, the other side is tripped off.

John, yes, I realize I need a re-wire, and we have been working on
this the four years we've lived here. I do very much appreciate your
wisdom here and will follow your advice. Thanks very much for
posting! I learned a lot. We most definitely will be running a new
line for the laundry room now that I know what's going on here, and
I'll be disconnecting as much in the basement as I can without
disrupting power to the upstairs bathroom.

On Sep 2, 6:07 pm, KLS wrote:
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:19:33 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"





wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

The dryer is a 220V item, to it needs both legs of the 220 circuit.
A hair dryer is a 110V item, so it only needs one leg of a 220
circuit. What is probably going on is that you have a 220 circuit
that feeds the dryer. The washer (normally a 110V item) is
piggybacked on one side of that circuit, and the bathroom is
piggybacked on the other side of that circuit. When the hair
dryer came on, it blew one side of the 220. That left the other
side running, so the washer was OK, and the clothes driver was
running on half power.

The only way this can happen is if the dryer is wired to 2
independent breakers. Normally, a circuit like this has a
pair of breakers that is ganged together, so when one side
blows, the other side is tripped off.

John, yes, I realize I need a re-wire, and we have been working on
this the four years we've lived here. I do very much appreciate your
wisdom here and will follow your advice. Thanks very much for
posting! I learned a lot. We most definitely will be running a new
line for the laundry room now that I know what's going on here, and
I'll be disconnecting as much in the basement as I can without
disrupting power to the upstairs bathroom. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It would be well worth the time and money to have a licensed
electrician check out your system for flaws (incuding grounds) and to
provide you a written proposal with quoted price for work to be done
(by room).

Your family's safety is involved as well as your investment in the
home. DO NOT DELAY.

I suspect from what you have written, you will probably also need to
increase the service rating between the house wiring (probably even a
new breaker box) and power company lines.

GOOD LUCK ... AND BE SAFE!

In article , "John A. Weeks III" wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

The dryer is a 220V item, to it needs both legs of the 220 circuit.

Unsupported assumption. Gas dryers, and some small electric dryers, are only
120V. Given that the OP's service is only 60A, an electric dryer seems
rather unlikely.

A hair dryer is a 110V item, so it only needs one leg of a 220
circuit. What is probably going on is that you have a 220 circuit
that feeds the dryer. The washer (normally a 110V item) is
piggybacked on one side of that circuit, and the bathroom is
piggybacked on the other side of that circuit.

More unsupported assumptions.

When the hair
dryer came on, it blew one side of the 220. That left the other
side running, so the washer was OK, and the clothes driver was
running on half power.

Alternative explanation: the laundry room light and the laundry room outlet
are on two different 120V circuits.

The only way this can happen is if the dryer is wired to 2
independent breakers.

The existence of any breakers at all is another unsupported assumption. Since
the OP's service is only 60A, it's obviously been there a looooong
time, and there's a good chance he has fuses instead of breakers.

Normally, a circuit like this has a
pair of breakers that is ganged together, so when one side
blows, the other side is tripped off.

If he has fuses, though...

This is a pretty easy thing to fix, but that is only one
of your problems. Your wiring system is a fire waiting to
happen, and you need a rewire. If I am wrong, then something
even worse is going on, and my statement on being a fire
hazzard goes double.

I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

KLS wrote:
John, yes, I realize I need a re-wire, and we have been working on
this the four years we've lived here.

Pfft.

You are risking a fire inside a wall. That is serious bad news.

Don't fiddle until your house burns.

Una

I would start by upgrading and bringing up to "code" you main service panel.

I would suggest a 200 amp service and a 40 slot breaker panel. If you go and
look at breaker panels at a home improvement store, you will see that there
is not much additional cost for a larger breaker panel.

I always see people who run out of breaker slots! Never fails. So get plenty
of extras. Note that a new properly wired kitchen can have as many as 10
separate circuits!

Upgrading your main service panel will also include proper and good
grounding. This is very important for a safe electrical system.

You can also get a whole house surge suppressor which will help to protect
all those electronic gizmos. I would recommend also having surge suppression
power strips as well. But note that if you do not have a properly grounded
main service, surge suppressor power strips may not work.

Anyway once you get the main service upgraded with a new panel, then you can
easily add circuits as needed. Also you can easily add "GFI" circuits as
required with GFI breakers and "Arc Fault" breakers as required.

Note that in old home bathrooms, the wiring can be quite dangerous. I've
seen light fixtures in these homes where the heat from the light has caused
the insulation on the wiring to disintegrate and there are bare wires back
behind the fixture. Some of these fixtures are also part of a metal medicine
cabinet which is not grounded. So you are in bare feet touching a metal
cabinet which could be a shock hazard. (Then old wiring has no ground, old
main panel may not have a ground.)

With a new service panel, you have a good ground there, then new wiring to
the bathroom light fixture is "high heat rated" wiring insulation, then
metal parts properly grounded to prevent shock, then also GFI on outlets
which will cut power before you get shocked.

So quite a bit of difference in safety from old bathroom wiring to new
bathroom wiring!


"KLS" wrote in message
I just discovered some strange wiring in my house. When we moved in,
the breaker box was only 60 amps, so you can imagine the density of
the various electrical loads on each circuit. One 15 amp circuit now
serves the laundry room, including a shoplight, and the dishwasher
upstairs, plus an upstairs bathroom, and who knows what else.

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

"Himpg" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 2, 6:07 pm, KLS wrote:
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:19:33 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"





wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

The dryer is a 220V item, to it needs both legs of the 220 circuit.
A hair dryer is a 110V item, so it only needs one leg of a 220
circuit. What is probably going on is that you have a 220 circuit
that feeds the dryer. The washer (normally a 110V item) is
piggybacked on one side of that circuit, and the bathroom is
piggybacked on the other side of that circuit. When the hair
dryer came on, it blew one side of the 220. That left the other
side running, so the washer was OK, and the clothes driver was
running on half power.

The only way this can happen is if the dryer is wired to 2
independent breakers. Normally, a circuit like this has a
pair of breakers that is ganged together, so when one side
blows, the other side is tripped off.

John, yes, I realize I need a re-wire, and we have been working on
this the four years we've lived here. I do very much appreciate your
wisdom here and will follow your advice. Thanks very much for
posting! I learned a lot. We most definitely will be running a new
line for the laundry room now that I know what's going on here, and
I'll be disconnecting as much in the basement as I can without
disrupting power to the upstairs bathroom. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It would be well worth the time and money to have a licensed
electrician check out your system for flaws (incuding grounds) and to
provide you a written proposal with quoted price for work to be done
(by room).

Your family's safety is involved as well as your investment in the
home. DO NOT DELAY.

I suspect from what you have written, you will probably also need to
increase the service rating between the house wiring (probably even a
new breaker box) and power company lines.

Yeah, based on the details provided, I think I would probably plan on a
rip'n'replace rewire, even if I had to finance it. You can always patch up
the holes in the wallboard after the fact, if the others who live in the
house won't shoot you first. Stuff That Can Kill You is not the place to cut
corners. (I don't cheap out on brakes and tires any more, either.)

aem sends...

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
"John A. Weeks III" wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem?

The existence of any breakers at all is another unsupported assumption. Since
the OP's service is only 60A, it's obviously been there a looooong
time, and there's a good chance he has fuses instead of breakers.

He stated above that he has breakers.

This is a pretty easy thing to fix, but that is only one
of your problems. Your wiring system is a fire waiting to
happen, and you need a rewire. If I am wrong, then something
even worse is going on, and my statement on being a fire
hazzard goes double.

I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

Are you seriously suggesting that his wiring situation is OK and
is not a fire waiting to happen? Granted, I cannot prove that in
court since I have never seen it in person, but anyone who is in
the business and reads what he has is reasonable in jumping to
that exact conclusion. If he wants a better opinion, then he
should hire someone to come out and look at it rather than posting
on the Internet.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:48:27 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "John A. Weeks III" wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

The dryer is a 220V item, to it needs both legs of the 220 circuit.

Unsupported assumption. Gas dryers, and some small electric dryers, are only
120V. Given that the OP's service is only 60A, an electric dryer seems
rather unlikely.

OP he The service *WAS* 60A when we moved in, and we immediately
upgraded to 200A. The dryer is gas, not electric.

When the hair
dryer came on, it blew one side of the 220. That left the other
side running, so the washer was OK, and the clothes driver was
running on half power.

Alternative explanation: the laundry room light and the laundry room outlet
are on two different 120V circuits.

This is possible, but from what I can see of the wiring (which is
visible as it's attached to the joists in the basement), it LOOKS LIKE
they're all on the same circuit. I haven't taken anything apart to
actually check yet; I'm waiting for my electrician to get back to me
on when he can get over here and check this out since he installed the
200A box, and I'm asking him to double check that there's not a
mistake in the wiring somewhere.

The only way this can happen is if the dryer is wired to 2
independent breakers.

The existence of any breakers at all is another unsupported assumption. Since
the OP's service is only 60A, it's obviously been there a looooong
time, and there's a good chance he has fuses instead of breakers.

The original 60A box was breakers; the current 200A is breakers.

This is a pretty easy thing to fix, but that is only one
of your problems. Your wiring system is a fire waiting to
happen, and you need a rewire. If I am wrong, then something
even worse is going on, and my statement on being a fire
hazzard goes double.

I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

I agree, and I live here. We have slowly been moving areas of the
house off of existing circuits onto their own independent circuits,
such as getting the garage off of this very circuit now under
discussion and onto its own 30A line.

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:06:01 -0700, "Bill"
wrote:

I would start by upgrading and bringing up to "code" you main service panel.

I would suggest a 200 amp service and a 40 slot breaker panel. If you go and
look at breaker panels at a home improvement store, you will see that there
is not much additional cost for a larger breaker panel.

Done, 4 years ago, when we moved in. We have been using and enjoying
the additional slots and have plenty left for the kitchen
remodel/rewire that's in the works for next year.

In article , "John A. Weeks III" wrote:
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
"John A. Weeks III" wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem?

The existence of any breakers at all is another unsupported assumption. Since

the OP's service is only 60A, it's obviously been there a looooong
time, and there's a good chance he has fuses instead of breakers.

He stated above that he has breakers.

True enough -- but many people don't use terminology correctly. Until the OP
confirms that he knows the difference between fuses and breakers, and
specifies which he has, I'm not ready to assume a breaker.

This is a pretty easy thing to fix, but that is only one
of your problems. Your wiring system is a fire waiting to
happen, and you need a rewire. If I am wrong, then something
even worse is going on, and my statement on being a fire
hazzard goes double.

I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

Are you seriously suggesting that his wiring situation is OK and
is not a fire waiting to happen?

Not without seeing it, no -- but you haven't seen it either. I see no evidence
in the OP's post that he has the 240V electric dryer you assume to exist, nor
that only one side of a hypothetical 240V circuit has tripped a breaker, or
blown a fuse, whichever he has.

Granted, I cannot prove that in
court since I have never seen it in person, but anyone who is in
the business and reads what he has is reasonable in jumping to
that exact conclusion.

Let me make my own set of unsupported assumptions, diametrically opposed to
yours:
1) the dryer is a gas dryer (or a small electric one) on a 120V circuit
2) the laundry outlet is on a *different* 120V circuit from the laundry lights

Given this set of assumptions, please explain what, exactly, in the OP's
description of popping the overcurrent device by plugging in a hairdryer would
cause you, or anyone else, to conclude that the wiring is an imminent hazard.

*That* is why I say you're jumping to conclusions. You don't have all the
information, any more than I do.

If he wants a better opinion, then he
should hire someone to come out and look at it rather than posting
on the Internet.

No argument there at all.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , KLS wrote:
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:48:27 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
"John A. Weeks III" wrote:
In article ,
KLS wrote:

One day I was running the washer, the dryer, and the dishwasher all at
the same time, with no ill effects. The hairdryer up in the bathroom
blew the circuit, no surprise. The surprise was that even though the
breaker was off, the washer and dryer were still running (the
dishwasher I'm not sure about, but the light was off, and so was the
hairdryer, after the breaker blew). What should I look for to solve
this problem? I plan to run a new line just for the laundry room, but
I also want to disconnect what's there now so no one uses this old
circuit in that room. I don't want to accidentally disconnect the
upstairs bathroom.

The dryer is a 220V item, to it needs both legs of the 220 circuit.

Unsupported assumption. Gas dryers, and some small electric dryers, are only
120V. Given that the OP's service is only 60A, an electric dryer seems
rather unlikely.

OP he The service *WAS* 60A when we moved in, and we immediately
upgraded to 200A. The dryer is gas, not electric.

In that case, you can disregard Mr. Weeks' conclusion immediately below:

When the hair
dryer came on, it blew one side of the 220. That left the other
side running, so the washer was OK, and the clothes driver was
running on half power.

Alternative explanation: the laundry room light and the laundry room outlet
are on two different 120V circuits.

This is possible, but from what I can see of the wiring (which is
visible as it's attached to the joists in the basement), it LOOKS LIKE
they're all on the same circuit. I haven't taken anything apart to
actually check yet; I'm waiting for my electrician to get back to me
on when he can get over here and check this out since he installed the
200A box, and I'm asking him to double check that there's not a
mistake in the wiring somewhere.

Thirty-five or forty bucks at Lowe's or HD will buy you a circuit tracer. It
has two components: a transmitter that you plug into an outlet, and a receiver
that beeps when its sensor wand is held over the breaker that feeds the
circuit the outlet is on. (The transmitter injects a radio-frequency signal on
the circuit.) You can test lighting outlets with one of those screw-in
adapters that converts a light socket into an outlet. A few minutes with one
of those should be enough to tell you whether the lights and outlets are on
the same circuit or not.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 02:33:12 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

Thirty-five or forty bucks at Lowe's or HD will buy you a circuit tracer. It
has two components: a transmitter that you plug into an outlet, and a receiver
that beeps when its sensor wand is held over the breaker that feeds the
circuit the outlet is on. (The transmitter injects a radio-frequency signal on
the circuit.) You can test lighting outlets with one of those screw-in
adapters that converts a light socket into an outlet. A few minutes with one
of those should be enough to tell you whether the lights and outlets are on
the same circuit or not.

I have a friend who has one of these, and I'll go borrow it and do as
you suggest since it makes the most sense. I'm still going to run a
separate circuit for the washer/dryer as a matter of code and safety,
but I need to sort out the lighting and get everything labeled
properly on the breaker box.