Recently I have received a completely unexpected letter from my HOA.
Personally I hate HOAs but I had little choice as most homes here in AZ
are part of HOAs. I've lived in my community for about 2 years and have
tried to maintain my property in reasonable condition and have not been
fined. (I have been asked on rare occasions to take care of certain
things which I have done promptly).

Now a few months ago in late July 2006, part of my front lawn was
starting to become brown. The HOA noticed this too and asked that I
water the lawn properly. So I upped the watering duration significantly
because I also thought it just wasn't watered enough. As this wasn't
working, I later realized the sprinkler system itself needed to be
repaired in several places as the water pressure and water spray just
wasn't going where it needed to go. So at certain expense and much
labor to dig up the lawn and performed needed repairs in late July just
before going on vacation.

Unfortunately I didn't turn down the watering duration. At the end of
July/the beginning of Aug, I went away for a couple of weeks on
vacation and when I came back the bermuda grass rapidly overgrew due to
overwatering so I mowed it right away. I don't actually recall but
supposedly I received a letter from the HOA on Aug 3 telling me to mow
it which I did when I came back on or around mid-Aug or so.

I figured that was the end of it for the next two months, everything
was in order, the lawn was watered at the right amount and mowed when
needed and I didn't hear from the f_ing HOA.

Now TWO F_ING MONTHS LATER,the HOA is mailing me to fine me over not
mowing the lawn and says I can request a hearing within 10 working days
or I'll waive my right to be heard. IMO, it is outrageous because they
are considering fining me over an issue two months ago that has been
since resolved.

The top of the letter readst:

September 26, 2006
(my name and address)

RE VIOLATION: Mow Lawn Origination Date: 8/3/2006

Why are they waiting two months to seek a fine over an issue that was
resolved and that has not been an issue for the past TWO (2) months?
While I understand the need for fines if an owner is just ignoring
violations and not making a good faith effort, this was clearly not the
case. I just happened to be on vacation and dealt with it as soon as I
could and that should have been the end of it which I thought was the
case.

So now I can either ignore the letter in which case the board could
fine me without a hearing and impose whatever ungodly amount they
choose. Or I can request and appear at this "hearing" and things could
get out of hand. I don't plan to be belligerent but if certain HOA
members who I don't even know or care to know become assholes then I'm
not going to be cordial in response either and things are likely to get
ugly.

What is the best course of action?

wrote
So now I can either ignore the letter in which case the
board could
fine me without a hearing and impose whatever ungodly
amount they
choose. Or I can request and appear at this "hearing" and
things could
get out of hand.

The HOA hearing members might also agree with you and
dismiss the fine.

I do not think the HOA is necessarily being outrageous. Its
job it to protect property values. When you bought your
place, did you not receive documents describing the terms of
ownership? Give the hearing process a chance to work. This
process exists precisely for people who might have
reasonable explanations/excuses and so should exculpated
from a fine.

In article .com,
says...

Now TWO F_ING MONTHS LATER,the HOA is mailing me to fine me over not
mowing the lawn and says I can request a hearing within 10 working days
or I'll waive my right to be heard. IMO, it is outrageous because they
are considering fining me over an issue two months ago that has been
since resolved.

The top of the letter readst:

September 26, 2006
(my name and address)

RE VIOLATION: Mow Lawn Origination Date: 8/3/2006

Why are they waiting two months to seek a fine over an issue that was
resolved and that has not been an issue for the past TWO (2) months?
While I understand the need for fines if an owner is just ignoring
violations and not making a good faith effort, this was clearly not the
case. I just happened to be on vacation and dealt with it as soon as I
could and that should have been the end of it which I thought was the
case.

So now I can either ignore the letter in which case the board could
fine me without a hearing and impose whatever ungodly amount they
choose. Or I can request and appear at this "hearing" and things could
get out of hand. I don't plan to be belligerent but if certain HOA
members who I don't even know or care to know become assholes then I'm
not going to be cordial in response either and things are likely to get
ugly.

What is the best course of action?


Request a hearing, explain to them what you've told us here. Do it calmly, and
see if you can project an attitude that is cooperative, rather than hostile.

Which is pretty much what the letter is telling you...

You haven't even talked with them yet, and you're flipping (or, shall I say
f----ing flipping out) over this. You're in a neighborhood with an HOA, you
knew that moving in. So calm down, and deal.

Banty

Elle wrote:
I do not think the HOA is necessarily being outrageous. Its
job it to protect property values.

The good part is that the property values are not determined by the HOA
but the market. Since the market bubble is bursting all these communist
HOA enclaves will go ****ting down.
-Sub.

Banty wrote:

Request a hearing, explain to them what you've told us here. Do it calmly, and
see if you can project an attitude that is cooperative, rather than hostile.


Yes! kiss their asses that will help!
Always keep kissing the ass in this nation of free and brave.
We allow the torture now.

I suggest that you videotape that hearing and you will mediately see the
HOA assholes squirming.

See what happened during my hearing and download the video clip at:
http://woodsidevillage.ocsatire.com/...0162418710.htm
-Sub

In article .com,
wrote:

Now TWO F_ING MONTHS LATER,the HOA is mailing me to fine me over not
mowing the lawn and says I can request a hearing within 10 working days
or I'll waive my right to be heard. IMO, it is outrageous because they
are considering fining me over an issue two months ago that has been
since resolved.

2 months is about right. It takes a month or so for the item
to get on the agenda at the next meeting, and then maybe a 2nd
board meeting 30 days later to finalize the action.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

No way would I ever buy into a home that had a HOA. Too many eunuchs
try to act like Mussolinis. Now with the housing down Ihopeany
placewith a HOA has its value just dive!!

Subcomandante wrote:
Elle wrote:
I do not think the HOA is necessarily being outrageous. Its
job it to protect property values.

The good part is that the property values are not determined by the HOA
but the market. Since the market bubble is bursting all these communist
HOA enclaves will go ****ting down.
-Sub.

That tape was beautiful. HOA bullies just hate for their actions to
come to light!!


Subcomandante wrote:
Banty wrote:

Request a hearing, explain to them what you've told us here. Do it calmly, and
see if you can project an attitude that is cooperative, rather than hostile.


Yes! kiss their asses that will help!
Always keep kissing the ass in this nation of free and brave.
We allow the torture now.

I suggest that you videotape that hearing and you will mediately see the
HOA assholes squirming.

See what happened during my hearing and download the video clip at:
http://woodsidevillage.ocsatire.com/...0162418710.htm
-Sub

Request a hearing, explain to them what you've told us here. Do it calmly, and
see if you can project an attitude that is cooperative, rather than hostile.

Which is pretty much what the letter is telling you...

You haven't even talked with them yet, and you're flipping (or, shall I say
f----ing flipping out) over this. You're in a neighborhood with an HOA, you
knew that moving in. So calm down, and deal.

Banty

If they had sent this letter shortly after I returned from vacation I
could understand because then it might look like I was just not taking
care of things and they felt the need to threaten a fine to get things
done. But two months seems ridiculous. The point of fines as expressely
stated is to help enforce provisions not be punitive per se. Since the
problem is no longer a problem for over two months, what is the point
of fining me two months later other than to be assholes? There is no
reason to be waiting two months over this.

If the fine were quite modest, it would be better if I just skipped
this "hearing" BS and just pay it cause I really don't want to deal
with HOA bull****. But since the fine is unstated, I guess I have no
choice because there is a risk that the fine could be outrageous and
having to fight it after giving up my right to a hearing will be
tougher. If I do go, then I won't obviously go in with an initially
belligerent attitude. But if they start to act like assholes and not
treating me with courtesy and respect, what then? There's no reason at
that point to play nice at that point and I will want to do everything
I can to destroy the HOA.

As for being in an neighborhood with an HOA, I really had no choice
because the vast majority of homes is in HOAs. I'm in it I don't have
to like it nor do I have to like them.

I do not think the HOA is necessarily being outrageous. Its
job it to protect property values. When you bought your
place, did you not receive documents describing the terms of
ownership? Give the hearing process a chance to work. This
process exists precisely for people who might have
reasonable explanations/excuses and so should exculpated
from a fine.

It is outrageous to me that they are sending out a letter on Sep 26 on
an Aug 3 issue. The point of considering fines is to enforce rules on
non-complying owners. I have fixed the issue as soon as I could and
AFAIK have been maintaining the lawn in a reasonable condition for the
past two months.

To do this over an old issue is outrageous unless they are expressly
trying to be punitive rather than threaten fines expressly to get
people to get things done. There's no excuse I can think of for why
they are mailing me about this two months later.

wrote:
Request a hearing, explain to them what you've told us here. Do it calmly, and
see if you can project an attitude that is cooperative, rather than hostile.

Which is pretty much what the letter is telling you...

You haven't even talked with them yet, and you're flipping (or, shall I say
f----ing flipping out) over this. You're in a neighborhood with an HOA, you
knew that moving in. So calm down, and deal.

Banty

If they had sent this letter shortly after I returned from vacation I
could understand because then it might look like I was just not taking
care of things and they felt the need to threaten a fine to get things
done. But two months seems ridiculous. The point of fines as expressely
stated is to help enforce provisions not be punitive per se. Since the
problem is no longer a problem for over two months, what is the point
of fining me two months later other than to be assholes? There is no
reason to be waiting two months over this.

If the fine were quite modest, it would be better if I just skipped
this "hearing" BS and just pay it cause I really don't want to deal
with HOA bull****. But since the fine is unstated, I guess I have no
choice because there is a risk that the fine could be outrageous and
having to fight it after giving up my right to a hearing will be
tougher. If I do go, then I won't obviously go in with an initially
belligerent attitude. But if they start to act like assholes and not
treating me with courtesy and respect, what then? There's no reason at
that point to play nice at that point and I will want to do everything
I can to destroy the HOA.

As for being in an neighborhood with an HOA, I really had no choice
because the vast majority of homes is in HOAs. I'm in it I don't have
to like it nor do I have to like them.


Every state has different laws regarding [DISCIPLINARY] fines.
For example in the California such fines are not subject to a lien.
So the only way the HOA can collect is by reducing the fine to judgment
-- Small Claims. Courts usually do not award judgment for disciplinary
fine so you could ignore it.

The reason I have suggested to videotape it is to create situation in
which they will tell you to shut of the camera and you tell them that by
doing so they are denying you the right for the hearing. Without the
hearing the fine is unlawful.

See what happened during my hearing and download the video clip at:
http://woodsidevillage.ocsatire.com/...0162418710.htm

Please notice that you must walk in with the camera rolling.
After they request the camera to be turned off you tell them that by
doing so they are denning you a right the hearing. Wait for their
response, turn of the camera and walk away. Do not be belligerent
because they may call Police for disturbing the peace or making theorist
threats. For that reason do not go alone. Make sure that you have a
witness. They are many and will always lie to police.

If you do it right they will never bug you again. The HOA boards are
communistic cowards and will pick only on defenseless. Same like bully.
Slap him and he will never bug you again.
-Sub

John A. Weeks III wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Now TWO F_ING MONTHS LATER,the HOA is mailing me to fine me over not
mowing the lawn and says I can request a hearing within 10 working days
or I'll waive my right to be heard. IMO, it is outrageous because they
are considering fining me over an issue two months ago that has been
since resolved.

2 months is about right. It takes a month or so for the item
to get on the agenda at the next meeting, and then maybe a 2nd
board meeting 30 days later to finalize the action.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================




If you live in an area with a HOA that has requirements the lawn to be
kept cut, then why didn't you make arrangements for it to be cut while
you were away for "a couple of weeks?" If I lived across the street,
I wouldn't want to be looking at your uncut lawn and perhaps there were
complaints. Now you're all torqued up and seem ready to start a war,
instead of simply going to the violation hearing, calmly explaining
what happened and hoping for the best. If the problem has been
corrected and you haven;t had similar issues before, they likely will
drop the fine.

I also agree with John above. Usually there has to be a meeting of a
violations committee or similar to issue the notice. It hasn't even
been two months from early Aug till now. Sounds about normal to me.

If you live in an area with a HOA that has requirements the lawn to be
kept cut, then why didn't you make arrangements for it to be cut while
you were away for "a couple of weeks?" If I lived across the street,
I wouldn't want to be looking at your uncut lawn and perhaps there were
complaints. Now you're all torqued up and seem ready to start a war,
instead of simply going to the violation hearing, calmly explaining
what happened and hoping for the best. If the problem has been
corrected and you haven;t had similar issues before, they likely will
drop the fine.

I also agree with John above. Usually there has to be a meeting of a
violations committee or similar to issue the notice. It hasn't even
been two months from early Aug till now. Sounds about normal to me.

From 8/3 to 9/26 is pretty much almost two months or two months less a
week if you want to be pedantic.

The point is that it seems to me that almost two months is a bit long
to be dealing with this matter. It should be obvious that in almost two
months that the problem is resolved. To then send a letter on 9/26 when
it should be plainly obvious simply goes beyond the bounds of why fines
are assessed which is to compel compliance. The idea that it took
almost two to notify me of this so-called hearing as normal I find to
be ridiculous. If I had let the lawn go on being uncut, do you think
they'd wait until now to act? The answer is obviously not.

Think about it this way, if you saw my lawn across the street and
complained and then saw that it was taken care of and several weeks
later you're bringing up this issue and wanting me to be fined, then
yeah I'd think you're being a jerk and an asshole. For me, if I saw,
this I'd just let it go. For the HOA not to do this, then yeah, I have
a problem with that. I don't buy that it took two months for them to
act on it because it should be obvious that they would have acted much
sooner if the problem persisted. That they did not act afterwards tells
me they know it was resolved yet are insisting on penalizing me for a
long resolved violation which I think should be reasonably understandle
as unintentional and long since corrected. They simply refused to let
it go and thus I can reasonably conclude that they are being jerks and
assholes.

You are assuming that the HOA will be reasonable and fair. I cannot go
in with such assumption and have to assume that are the jerks and
assholes that they apparently are. I need to be prepared to defend
myself aggressively and be ready for "war" if it comes to that. It
would be a mistake to assume the best of them.

In article .com,
says...


If you live in an area with a HOA that has requirements the lawn to be
kept cut, then why didn't you make arrangements for it to be cut while
you were away for "a couple of weeks?" If I lived across the street,
I wouldn't want to be looking at your uncut lawn and perhaps there were
complaints. Now you're all torqued up and seem ready to start a war,
instead of simply going to the violation hearing, calmly explaining
what happened and hoping for the best. If the problem has been
corrected and you haven;t had similar issues before, they likely will
drop the fine.

I also agree with John above. Usually there has to be a meeting of a
violations committee or similar to issue the notice. It hasn't even
been two months from early Aug till now. Sounds about normal to me.

From 8/3 to 9/26 is pretty much almost two months or two months less a
week if you want to be pedantic.

The point is that it seems to me that almost two months is a bit long
to be dealing with this matter. It should be obvious that in almost two
months that the problem is resolved. To then send a letter on 9/26 when
it should be plainly obvious simply goes beyond the bounds of why fines
are assessed which is to compel compliance. The idea that it took
almost two to notify me of this so-called hearing as normal I find to
be ridiculous. If I had let the lawn go on being uncut, do you think
they'd wait until now to act? The answer is obviously not.

Think about it this way, if you saw my lawn across the street and
complained and then saw that it was taken care of and several weeks
later you're bringing up this issue and wanting me to be fined, then
yeah I'd think you're being a jerk and an asshole. For me, if I saw,
this I'd just let it go. For the HOA not to do this, then yeah, I have
a problem with that. I don't buy that it took two months for them to
act on it because it should be obvious that they would have acted much
sooner if the problem persisted. That they did not act afterwards tells
me they know it was resolved yet are insisting on penalizing me for a
long resolved violation which I think should be reasonably understandle
as unintentional and long since corrected. They simply refused to let
it go and thus I can reasonably conclude that they are being jerks and
assholes.

You are assuming that the HOA will be reasonable and fair. I cannot go
in with such assumption and have to assume that are the jerks and
assholes that they apparently are. I need to be prepared to defend
myself aggressively and be ready for "war" if it comes to that. It
would be a mistake to assume the best of them.


You're looking at it differently than they do, and likely your neighbors do.

You think: Lawn mowed, problem fixed, why am I hearing about it now, two months
later.

They think: There was a problem where the lawn wasn't mowed for some time, it
took that member a long time to get around to it, and we don't understand why
and don't want it to happen again.

I agree with the poster that said that the two month period is just the time it
takes for the matter to be process. So, in that two months, should folks be
able to do whatever, have an old car up on blocks in the driveway, fix it up,
then say "what's your problem I removed the car", then do another violation, fix
it up and say "go away HOA", etc. etc?

In all likelihood they just want you do understand that they take the rules
seriously, and your assurance that in the future you'll arrange for your lawn to
be watched when your away.

If they do more, possibly it has to do with "rare occassions to take care of
certain things" ih the past two years you referred in your original post.
Really, most folks just follow the rules, that's the way to keep an HOA off your
back.

By the way, is it possible for you to do a rock lawn, your being in AZ? (Prolly
not, since HOA's are usually enforcing some uniformity, but thought I'd bring up
the possibility...)

Banty

wrote
You are assuming that the HOA will be reasonable and fair.
I cannot go
in with such assumption and have to assume that are the
jerks and
assholes that they apparently are. I need to be prepared
to defend
myself aggressively and be ready for "war" if it comes to
that. It
would be a mistake to assume the best of them.

You sound mighty certain of the facts here. Given this, it
seems like it would be a logical decision for you to pay a
few thousand dollars and hire a lawyer. We sure need more
litigation (and the prostitute costs that go with it) as
opposed to regularly mowed lawns, that's for sure.

On 30 Sep 2006 06:39:02 -0700, someone wrote:


Why are they waiting two months to seek a fine over an issue that was
resolved and that has not been an issue for the past TWO (2) months?

Probably took them that long to have their meeting and report back at
the next meeting and meet to decide what to do and eventually they
resolved to issue a fine. So what? Is there some kind of "statute of
limitations" in the by-laws that they must cite you within a lesser
period of time?

File your appeal. Maybe the hearing officer will give you a break
being that you are now in compliance. However it seems like you have
a history of violations, which you are glossing over with excuses that
they only had to ask you sometimes, and that you paid a lot of money
to fix your sprinkler, whatever.

Appeal or pay.



Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

Best course of action?


Move to a place without an HOA. If that means leaving Arizona, so be it.


Dimitri

On 30 Sep 2006 06:39:02 -0700, wrote:

What is the best course of action?

Move!

You're looking at it differently than they do, and likely your neighbors do.

You think: Lawn mowed, problem fixed, why am I hearing about it now, two months
later.

They think: There was a problem where the lawn wasn't mowed for some time, it
took that member a long time to get around to it, and we don't understand why
and don't want it to happen again.

As I said, I can understand and appreciate that. But it wasn't an issue
of not mowing the lawn per se, it was an issue of a broken sprinkler
system that ultimately needed to be partially replaced. In any case, it
isn't like I like let the lawn go for all these two years it was a
problem just this summer with the sprinklers breaking down (which I
didn't realize until I examined it closely).

They don't know this but this is why the lawn was not in good shape. I
did fix it before leaving for a couple of weeks but didn't realize that
with the sprinklers working properly that the water duration was now
too high.

My problem isn't that they complained about it, my problem is in
bringing it up two months later.

I agree with the poster that said that the two month period is just the time it
takes for the matter to be process. So, in that two months, should folks be
able to do whatever, have an old car up on blocks in the driveway, fix it up,
then say "what's your problem I removed the car", then do another violation, fix
it up and say "go away HOA", etc. etc?

The lawn problem wasn't for two months. It was for a 2-3 weeks problem
at best with the sprinklers not working properly and me figuring out
what was wrong and then fixing it. I suppose it might look like I was
just letting it go but I was working hard to get it working and did.

It basically comes down to whether two months is a resonable time to
bring up something that has been taken care. In my mind, no, because if
I saw a neighbor's lawn having problems, complained and then saw it was
fixed for two months then insist on punishing that neighbor for a past
violation that has been fixed for some time, that I'd be a jerk and an
asshole for doing so. Well that's what it seems like they're doing.

Maybe it just took a while due to bureaucratic delay to get to it. I
find that hard to believe but since a couple of posters claim that's a
strong possibility, I'l have to consider it. I've never been fined so
I'm not the problem owner you think I am. Maybe all such fines do take
a couple of months to process. But unless you know this to be the case
or I know this to be the case, seeing something brought up two months
later, you can see why it would seem egregious to me at first glance,
that's my main point.


In all likelihood they just want you do understand that they take the rules
seriously, and your assurance that in the future you'll arrange for your lawn to
be watched when your away.


As I said, my problem was bring it up two months later. It isn't
because they weren't right in complaining about the condition of the
lawn. I was frustrated over it myself but it wasn't a matter of not
doing routine work but a matter or the lawn sprinklers needing
significant repairs. They simply don't understand the problems I was
facing.


If they do more, possibly it has to do with "rare occassions to take care of
certain things" ih the past two years you referred in your original post.
Really, most folks just follow the rules, that's the way to keep an HOA off your
back.

The rare occasions to take care of certain things is just that, rare.
Its really unsual for someone to never get requests to do something,
everybody does in every HOA. It doesn't mean neglect but means people
have different ideas of what they think needs done. For instance I have
a large jacurunda. One year, they send me a mail requesting I trim it
cause they thought it was overgrown although some neighbors have ones
just as large out front. I didn't think so but I did it promptly cause
I would need to do it eventually anyway.

This year I let it grow again to full size and no one complained (but
this time around if they did I was prepared to fight them over it since
I felt like my jacurunda looked fine fully grown and was no bigger than
some neighbors) but without any request I myself thought it was time to
trim it back so I did.

It looks like the best thing to do would be to just explain the
situation and hope for fairness and understanding. I can't assume that
going in and have to be prepared to fight but I won't go postal either.
We'll see what happens.

In article om,
says...

You're looking at it differently than they do, and likely your neighbors do.

You think: Lawn mowed, problem fixed, why am I hearing about it now, two months
later.

They think: There was a problem where the lawn wasn't mowed for some time, it
took that member a long time to get around to it, and we don't understand why
and don't want it to happen again.

As I said, I can understand and appreciate that. But it wasn't an issue
of not mowing the lawn per se, it was an issue of a broken sprinkler
system that ultimately needed to be partially replaced. In any case, it
isn't like I like let the lawn go for all these two years it was a
problem just this summer with the sprinklers breaking down (which I
didn't realize until I examined it closely).

They don't know this but this is why the lawn was not in good shape. I
did fix it before leaving for a couple of weeks but didn't realize that
with the sprinklers working properly that the water duration was now
too high.

OK - explain that to the HOA at the hearing. Bring any documentation of the
work. They have no way of knowing what went on. You have to tell them.



My problem isn't that they complained about it, my problem is in
bringing it up two months later.

Simply because it takes that long.



I agree with the poster that said that the two month period is just the time it
takes for the matter to be process. So, in that two months, should folks be
able to do whatever, have an old car up on blocks in the driveway, fix it up,
then say "what's your problem I removed the car", then do another violation, fix
it up and say "go away HOA", etc. etc?

The lawn problem wasn't for two months. It was for a 2-3 weeks problem
at best with the sprinklers not working properly and me figuring out
what was wrong and then fixing it. I suppose it might look like I was
just letting it go but I was working hard to get it working and did.

It basically comes down to whether two months is a resonable time to
bring up something that has been taken care. In my mind, no, because if
I saw a neighbor's lawn having problems, complained and then saw it was
fixed for two months then insist on punishing that neighbor for a past
violation that has been fixed for some time, that I'd be a jerk and an
asshole for doing so. Well that's what it seems like they're doing.

Like another poster said, it's not like there's a statute of limitations. And
they don't want a situation set up where folks can get away with temporary
violations if they think just reversing the situation before the HOA gets around
to a hearing gets them off.


Maybe it just took a while due to bureaucratic delay to get to it. I
find that hard to believe but since a couple of posters claim that's a
strong possibility, I'l have to consider it. I've never been fined so
I'm not the problem owner you think I am. Maybe all such fines do take
a couple of months to process. But unless you know this to be the case
or I know this to be the case, seeing something brought up two months
later, you can see why it would seem egregious to me at first glance,
that's my main point.


In all likelihood they just want you do understand that they take the rules
seriously, and your assurance that in the future you'll arrange for your lawn to
be watched when your away.


As I said, my problem was bring it up two months later. It isn't
because they weren't right in complaining about the condition of the
lawn. I was frustrated over it myself but it wasn't a matter of not
doing routine work but a matter or the lawn sprinklers needing
significant repairs. They simply don't understand the problems I was
facing.


If they do more, possibly it has to do with "rare occassions to take care of
certain things" ih the past two years you referred in your original post.
Really, most folks just follow the rules, that's the way to keep an HOA off your
back.

The rare occasions to take care of certain things is just that, rare.
Its really unsual for someone to never get requests to do something,
everybody does in every HOA. It doesn't mean neglect but means people
have different ideas of what they think needs done. For instance I have
a large jacurunda. One year, they send me a mail requesting I trim it
cause they thought it was overgrown although some neighbors have ones
just as large out front. I didn't think so but I did it promptly cause
I would need to do it eventually anyway.

This year I let it grow again to full size and no one complained (but
this time around if they did I was prepared to fight them over it since
I felt like my jacurunda looked fine fully grown and was no bigger than
some neighbors) but without any request I myself thought it was time to
trim it back so I did.

It looks like the best thing to do would be to just explain the
situation and hope for fairness and understanding. I can't assume that
going in and have to be prepared to fight but I won't go postal either.
We'll see what happens.


Sounds like you're on a good footing now.

Banty

D. Gerasimatos wrote:
Best course of action?


Move to a place without an HOA. If that means leaving Arizona, so be it.


Dimitri


Dimitri, judging from your name you are well trained to live in
Bolshevistic system so the HOA may be like your home.
-Sub

GWB wrote:
On 30 Sep 2006 06:39:02 -0700, wrote:

What is the best course of action?

Move!

I love the free market economy because time to time there are crises and
people are forced to move from their overpriced HOA ****ty dwellings.
It is you GWB who will move soon.
The HOA real estate bubble is bursting so start packing.
-Sub

Banty wrote:
In article om,
says...

You're looking at it differently than they do, and likely your neighbors do.

You think: Lawn mowed, problem fixed, why am I hearing about it now, two months
later.

They think: There was a problem where the lawn wasn't mowed for some time, it
took that member a long time to get around to it, and we don't understand why
and don't want it to happen again.

As I said, I can understand and appreciate that. But it wasn't an issue
of not mowing the lawn per se, it was an issue of a broken sprinkler
system that ultimately needed to be partially replaced. In any case, it
isn't like I like let the lawn go for all these two years it was a
problem just this summer with the sprinklers breaking down (which I
didn't realize until I examined it closely).

They don't know this but this is why the lawn was not in good shape. I
did fix it before leaving for a couple of weeks but didn't realize that
with the sprinklers working properly that the water duration was now
too high.

OK - explain that to the HOA at the hearing. Bring any documentation of the
work. They have no way of knowing what went on. You have to tell them.



My problem isn't that they complained about it, my problem is in
bringing it up two months later.

Simply because it takes that long.

If you say so...You could be right I've never faced this issue
before...




I agree with the poster that said that the two month period is just the time it
takes for the matter to be process. So, in that two months, should folks be
able to do whatever, have an old car up on blocks in the driveway, fix it up,
then say "what's your problem I removed the car", then do another violation, fix
it up and say "go away HOA", etc. etc?

The lawn problem wasn't for two months. It was for a 2-3 weeks problem
at best with the sprinklers not working properly and me figuring out
what was wrong and then fixing it. I suppose it might look like I was
just letting it go but I was working hard to get it working and did.

It basically comes down to whether two months is a resonable time to
bring up something that has been taken care. In my mind, no, because if
I saw a neighbor's lawn having problems, complained and then saw it was
fixed for two months then insist on punishing that neighbor for a past
violation that has been fixed for some time, that I'd be a jerk and an
asshole for doing so. Well that's what it seems like they're doing.

Like another poster said, it's not like there's a statute of limitations. And
they don't want a situation set up where folks can get away with temporary
violations if they think just reversing the situation before the HOA gets around
to a hearing gets them off.

The point of the HOA shouldn't be to just charge fines willy nilly in a
punitive vindictive manner. This is even expressed said in the HOA
agreement, that it is used as a tool of last resort to compel
compliance, not as a tool of punishment or a way to raise revenue.
Therefore to bring up an resolved issue TWO months later is not in the
spirit of the reason for threatening fines.

So that argument is just BS. There might not be a statute of
limitations but there are common sense expectations. If in fact in is
just bureaucratic delay, then that is a explanation that I can sort-of
accept as the HOA and neighbors not being jerks and assholes per se.

OTOH, if the situation is as I initially perceived it where they're
bringing up an old problem from almost two months ago already realizing
it is no longer a problem than I am right to call them being jerks and
assholes. Again, if your wife complained about something you did wrong
but you had a good reason for it and its been a non-issue for the past
couple of months and now she brings it up as an issue, wouldn't you
think she was being a jerk and asshole? Well that's what it looked like
to me when I initially got this request for a hearing letter.


Maybe it just took a while due to bureaucratic delay to get to it. I
find that hard to believe but since a couple of posters claim that's a
strong possibility, I'l have to consider it. I've never been fined so
I'm not the problem owner you think I am. Maybe all such fines do take
a couple of months to process. But unless you know this to be the case
or I know this to be the case, seeing something brought up two months
later, you can see why it would seem egregious to me at first glance,
that's my main point.


In all likelihood they just want you do understand that they take the rules
seriously, and your assurance that in the future you'll arrange for your lawn to
be watched when your away.


As I said, my problem was bring it up two months later. It isn't
because they weren't right in complaining about the condition of the
lawn. I was frustrated over it myself but it wasn't a matter of not
doing routine work but a matter or the lawn sprinklers needing
significant repairs. They simply don't understand the problems I was
facing.


If they do more, possibly it has to do with "rare occassions to take care of
certain things" ih the past two years you referred in your original post.
Really, most folks just follow the rules, that's the way to keep an HOA off your
back.

The rare occasions to take care of certain things is just that, rare.
Its really unsual for someone to never get requests to do something,
everybody does in every HOA. It doesn't mean neglect but means people
have different ideas of what they think needs done. For instance I have
a large jacurunda. One year, they send me a mail requesting I trim it
cause they thought it was overgrown although some neighbors have ones
just as large out front. I didn't think so but I did it promptly cause
I would need to do it eventually anyway.

This year I let it grow again to full size and no one complained (but
this time around if they did I was prepared to fight them over it since
I felt like my jacurunda looked fine fully grown and was no bigger than
some neighbors) but without any request I myself thought it was time to
trim it back so I did.

It looks like the best thing to do would be to just explain the
situation and hope for fairness and understanding. I can't assume that
going in and have to be prepared to fight but I won't go postal either.
We'll see what happens.


Sounds like you're on a good footing now.


It depends greatly on how they are viewing and treating the situation.
If they are fair and understanding and accept my explanation and
realize I've been keeping up the lawn then that's fine. But if they
have a punitive hostile attitude or they unfairly and angrily accuse me
of neglect or demand proof that the sprinkler system was broken (which
I can't really prove exactly) and want to be angry and vindictive, then
I have to be ready to fight back. The biggest problem I face is not
knowing what to expect. This is why I would have preferred if they just
told me what the fine would be and it if it was modest, just to pay it
off and move on rather than dealing with this hearing bull****.

Banty

On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:48:19 -0700, Subcomandante
wrote:

GWB wrote:
On 30 Sep 2006 06:39:02 -0700, wrote:

What is the best course of action?

Move!

I love the free market economy because time to time there are crises and
people are forced to move from their overpriced HOA ****ty dwellings.
It is you GWB who will move soon.
The HOA real estate bubble is bursting so start packing.
-Sub

Nah, I moved last year on August 29th.

wrote:
My problem isn't that they complained about it, my problem is in
bringing it up two months later.

Simply because it takes that long.

If you say so...You could be right I've never faced this issue
before...

All you have to do is use common sense. Most HOA don't have full or
even part time employees sitting around to process complaints,
violations, etc. Usually any complaints from residents, sightings by
a member of the violations committe or board, etc are handled when they
have their next regularly scheduled meeting. Then, the notices that
are actual to be sent out may be processed by a management company that
handles that part of the process. So, a delay of a little less than 2
months isn't that unusual.



The lawn problem wasn't for two months. It was for a 2-3 weeks problem
at best with the sprinklers not working properly and me figuring out
what was wrong and then fixing it. I suppose it might look like I was
just letting it go but I was working hard to get it working and did.

2-3 weeks of brown lawn which resulted in a HOA letter, which was then
immediately followed by 2 or more weeks of overgrown lawn and another
HOA letter while you were on vacation.



The point of the HOA shouldn't be to just charge fines willy nilly in a
punitive vindictive manner. This is even expressed said in the HOA
agreement, that it is used as a tool of last resort to compel
compliance, not as a tool of punishment or a way to raise revenue.
Therefore to bring up an resolved issue TWO months later is not in the
spirit of the reason for threatening fines.


You make it sound like there was just the issue of the grass not being
mowed while you were away for 2 weeks. In fact, you also stated:

"Now a few months ago in late July 2006, part of my front lawn was
starting to become brown. The HOA noticed this too and asked that I
water the lawn properly. So I upped the watering duration significantly

because I also thought it just wasn't watered enough. As this wasn't
working, I later realized the sprinkler system itself needed to be
repaired in several places as the water pressure and water spray just
wasn't going where it needed to go. So at certain expense and much
labor to dig up the lawn and performed needed repairs in late July just

before going on vacation. "


So, in reality, you had a lawn which was a problem of one kind or
another for a lot longer than 2 weeks. A prior HOA letter was already
sent out about the lawn being brown in late July. And then that was
immediately followed by the lawn being left uncut for how long?

"Unfortunately I didn't turn down the watering duration. At the end of
July/the beginning of Aug, I went away for a couple of weeks on
vacation and when I came back the bermuda grass rapidly overgrew due to

overwatering so I mowed it right away. I don't actually recall but
supposedly I received a letter from the HOA on Aug 3 telling me to mow
it which I did when I came back on or around mid-Aug or so.

A letter was sent out by the HOA on Aug 3, telling you that the lawn
was already overgrown. You say you were only away for "a couple of
weeks at the end of July, beginning of Aug", so how is it that it was
already overgrown, spotted, a letter sent, and yet it wasn't cut until
"around mid Aug?" If you cut the lawn the day before you left and
then promptly cut it again 2 weeks later, it doesn't sound like this
would be possible. It sounds to me like the lawn was not cut for a lot
longer. It's also hard to figure how a lawn could go from getting a
HOA letter for being brown in late July, to getting sprinkler repairs
done, to getting another letter Aug 3 for being overgrown, with you on
vacation somewhere in that period too. Something is wrong with the
timeline here.


So that argument is just BS. There might not be a statute of
limitations but there are common sense expectations. If in fact in is
just bureaucratic delay, then that is a explanation that I can sort-of
accept as the HOA and neighbors not being jerks and assholes per se.

That's good.




OTOH, if the situation is as I initially perceived it where they're
bringing up an old problem from almost two months ago already realizing
it is no longer a problem than I am right to call them being jerks and
assholes. Again, if your wife complained about something you did wrong
but you had a good reason for it and its been a non-issue for the past
couple of months and now she brings it up as an issue, wouldn't you
think she was being a jerk and asshole? Well that's what it looked like
to me when I initially got this request for a hearing letter.

Uh, oh, back to the let's go to war mentality, which you obviously
prefer.


It depends greatly on how they are viewing and treating the
situation.
If they are fair and understanding and accept my explanation and
realize I've been keeping up the lawn then that's fine. But if they
have a punitive hostile attitude or they unfairly and angrily accuse me
of neglect or demand proof that the sprinkler system was broken (which
I can't really prove exactly) and want to be angry and vindictive, then
I have to be ready to fight back. The biggest problem I face is not
knowing what to expect. This is why I would have preferred if they just
told me what the fine would be and it if it was modest, just to pay it
off and move on rather than dealing with this hearing bull****.


How is it that you have no proof of the repairs to the sprinkler
system, which you claim were substantial? If a contractor did it, you
should have a bill, canceled check, etc. If you bought the materials
and did it yourself, you should have bills, credit card receipts, etc.
Even a neighbor or someone who saw you doing the work could be a
witness.

And of course, we are hearing only one side of the story here.

If you want a favorable outcome, without starting a war, I suggest you
send your wife or another representative to the violation hearing,
And also consider taking the advice to move to an area without a HOA,
as I can see you are headed for lots of future problems if you stay
where you are.

In article .com,
says...



The point of the HOA shouldn't be to just charge fines willy nilly in a
punitive vindictive manner. This is even expressed said in the HOA
agreement, that it is used as a tool of last resort to compel
compliance, not as a tool of punishment or a way to raise revenue.
Therefore to bring up an resolved issue TWO months later is not in the
spirit of the reason for threatening fines.

Um, no - the fine is to enforce the regulations; there's no reason to expect
that a fine only be used to make a miscreant stop a bad action and only for
that. Else everyone pulled over for speeding by a state trooper could say "hey,
not only am I no longer speeding, my current speed is zero miles per hour, why
are you fining me??"


So that argument is just BS. There might not be a statute of
limitations but there are common sense expectations. If in fact in is
just bureaucratic delay, then that is a explanation that I can sort-of
accept as the HOA and neighbors not being jerks and assholes per se.

Well, HOA's have a lot of little regs, some of which make sense, some of which
don't IMO, but you made your choice regarding that already. You signed on, you
deal.


OTOH, if the situation is as I initially perceived it where they're
bringing up an old problem from almost two months ago already realizing
it is no longer a problem than I am right to call them being jerks and
assholes. Again, if your wife complained about something you did wrong
but you had a good reason for it and its been a non-issue for the past
couple of months and now she brings it up as an issue, wouldn't you
think she was being a jerk and asshole? Well that's what it looked like
to me when I initially got this request for a hearing letter.

Um, I don't have a wife. Not interested in a wife, being a hetero female myself
:-/

You can complain about the HOA folks all you want in your house, as long as you
can muster an air of cooperation once you get to the hearing. As to comparing
marriage to an HOA, well, if you have a marriage with monthly meetings and
reports, I guess you can do that ..



Sounds like you're on a good footing now.


It depends greatly on how they are viewing and treating the situation.
If they are fair and understanding and accept my explanation and
realize I've been keeping up the lawn then that's fine. But if they
have a punitive hostile attitude or they unfairly and angrily accuse me
of neglect or demand proof that the sprinkler system was broken (which
I can't really prove exactly) and want to be angry and vindictive, then
I have to be ready to fight back. The biggest problem I face is not
knowing what to expect. This is why I would have preferred if they just
told me what the fine would be and it if it was modest, just to pay it
off and move on rather than dealing with this hearing bull****.


You might get a fine. I'd just pay up and deal with things better in the
future. Or move. Flipping out over the fine won't make your life any better.

Banty

In article .com, writes:
Why are they waiting two months to seek a fine over an issue that was
resolved and that has not been an issue for the past TWO (2) months?
While I understand the need for fines if an owner is just ignoring
violations and not making a good faith effort, this was clearly not the
case. I just happened to be on vacation and dealt with it as soon as I
could and that should have been the end of it which I thought was the
case.

I'd try the "nice" method first, assuming that they're reasonable
people, or that the reasonable ones will side with you over the jerk. Attend
the meeting and ask politely exactly what you do above. (By politely, I mean
tone of voice. I like the direct way you word the questions above, and IMO
you deserve direct answers.)
You might also want to follow up the meeting with the same thing in a
polite letter. (Have it in writing, in case it escalates and you want to file
suit later.)

- Sharon
"Gravity... is a harsh mistress!"

In article .com, writes:

If they had sent this letter shortly after I returned from vacation I
could understand because then it might look like I was just not taking
care of things and they felt the need to threaten a fine to get things
done. But two months seems ridiculous. The point of fines as expressely
stated is to help enforce provisions not be punitive per se. Since the
problem is no longer a problem for over two months, what is the point
of fining me two months later other than to be assholes? There is no
reason to be waiting two months over this.

FWIW, I agree with you. Even if you don't mind the HOA very much, or
you have a generally good one, as we do, they can make you feel a little
defensive for no reason. For example, this summer we're having some
remodelling done to our house (interior only). We forgot the rule about signs
and let the contractor put up a yard sign. After a couple months, we got a
letter from the HOA quoting the rule and asking for it to be removed. No
problem, that was our bad, so we removed it the next day.
This weekend, I finally got around to removing an ugly bush from next
to our mailbox. As I was hacking at it, some guy in a pickup stopped to stare.
He asked me "removing trees?" I said "just the bush" and then ignored him
until he drove off. The reasonable part of me thinks he was just wondering if
he could make a quick buck by offering to do the work for me. The now-paranoid
part of me wondered if he was a spy for the HOA since we also have a rule about
removing trees.

As for being in an neighborhood with an HOA, I really had no choice
because the vast majority of homes is in HOAs. I'm in it I don't have
to like it nor do I have to like them.

It's like that in Northern VA too. If you don't want to live in an HOA
controlled area, you should probably get a houseboat and live on the river.

- Sharon
"Gravity... is a harsh mistress!"

All you have to do is use common sense. Most HOA don't have full
or
even part time employees sitting around to process complaints,
violations, etc. Usually any complaints from residents, sightings by
a member of the violations committe or board, etc are handled when they
have their next regularly scheduled meeting. Then, the notices that
are actual to be sent out may be processed by a management company that
handles that part of the process. So, a delay of a little less than 2
months isn't that unusual.


I find it unusual only because had I let the lawn go for another two
months that there is no way there'd be any kind of delay in notifying
me about further fines or requests to get things done ASAP. I found it
egregious because it looked like they were sending it out on Sep 26 on
a supposedly Aug 3 issue after it should have been plainly obvious that
the problem is long resolved. I think therefore that my reaction is
reasonable based on how that looks to me. But again, if you insist that
a bureaucratic delay of 2 months isn't unusual then okay, I'll accept
that as a possibility.

A letter was sent out by the HOA on Aug 3, telling you that the lawn
was already overgrown. You say you were only away for "a couple of
weeks at the end of July, beginning of Aug", so how is it that it was
already overgrown, spotted, a letter sent, and yet it wasn't cut until
"around mid Aug?" If you cut the lawn the day before you left and
then promptly cut it again 2 weeks later, it doesn't sound like this
would be possible. It sounds to me like the lawn was not cut for a lot
longer. It's also hard to figure how a lawn could go from getting a
HOA letter for being brown in late July, to getting sprinkler repairs
done, to getting another letter Aug 3 for being overgrown, with you on
vacation somewhere in that period too. Something is wrong with the
timeline here.

IIRC, I remember two letters being sent. One was sent in mid July
because the main front section of the L-shaped lawn wasn't growing and
dying and it took maybe a couple of weeks for me to figure out what was
going on and get to digging up and replacing/reinstalling parts of the
sprinkler. In the meantime, I had upped the water duration to 20
minutes/day to compensate for what later I found to be leaky faulty
sprinkler housings/heads on the front part of the lawn while the rear
section part of the lawn where the spinklers were working were
overgrowing quickly and I was waiting until the dying part grew back
before cutting the whole lawn so the Aug 3 letter was probably
referring to that.

Just before I went on vacation, everything seemed in order, the dying
part grew back sufficiently and then I cut the entire lawn properly and
went away forgetting that I needed to turn down the water to 1/3 of
that. 20 minutes/day watering for two weeks with Bermuda grass and it
will overgrow pretty quickly. So I cut it when I got back and for the
past couple of months things have been fine. The lawn is evenly watered
at the right amount and I've only had to cut it no more than every two
weeks or less to keep it in good shape.

Again, I think people are missing my point entirely. I'm not claiming
the lawn wasn't in bad shape at one point. But it wasn't because of
laziness it was because the spinkler system had been broken and was
breaking down further and I was working hard to figure out what was
going on then fixing it. Cutting it before going on vacation and then
expecting it not to need cutting for two weeks is reasonable had I
remembered to cut back the water. So okay that was my oversight. I
don't deny the lawn wasn't in good shape and I agree people had a right
to complain and threaten fines to get it done but I got it done and its
been fine for the past two months.

So what bothered me particularly though was seeing a notice 2 months
later over an issue that I worked hard to fix and has been maintained
properly then seeing them send a notice about it two months later. If
it was just bureaucratic delay, then okay, but on initial perception it
seemed to me that they were instead sending out a notice over an old
problem because they being jerks and not wanting to let it go. Am I
being completely unreasonable to have this perception???

Anyway I have not yet responded or contacted anyone from the HOA yet
precisely because I wanted to take the best course of action possible.
This is why I posted this message so that I could get feedback and I'm
glad I did. Rather than going in assuming they were being jerks for
dredging up an old issue I'll have to also consider that it was just
bureaucratic inertia which isn't as egregious as what it initially
appeared. But had I been on the "warpath" as people claim, I wouldn't
have bothered, I would have gone in and punched people out well I
haven't and don't intend to do that.

How is it that you have no proof of the repairs to the sprinkler
system, which you claim were substantial? If a contractor did it, you
should have a bill, canceled check, etc. If you bought the materials
and did it yourself, you should have bills, credit card receipts, etc.
Even a neighbor or someone who saw you doing the work could be a
witness.

If they demand proof for what I'm stating here to have happened then I
suppose I could provide it but I would consider that kind of
inquisition-like atmosphere to be extremely hostile and not neighborly
especially in light of the fact that the lawn had been well maintained
for over two months. They should accept what I've said as a good
explanation and therefore decide that a fine is unwarranted but if they
insist on being jerks and want to impose a fine then do it and let's
just move on. In fact if they had only stated the fine amount they were
seeking and it was small enough, I'd just rather pay it and move on
rather than having to continue dealing with an issue from months back.


If you want a favorable outcome, without starting a war, I suggest you
send your wife or another representative to the violation hearing,
And also consider taking the advice to move to an area without a HOA,
as I can see you are headed for lots of future problems if you stay
where you are.

I don't accept this "like it or leave it" advice. If something is
unjust or not right it is better to fight it then leaving and
slinkering from it. Nor do I feel like I should be forced to move out
of state because of bad HOAs.