I bought an old house 13 years ago and they didnt really maintain
anything, so my water heater could go any day.

I have been considering getting a tankless water heater.
My neighbor owns several properties & swears by them.
He has someone who he buys them from for $250 each, which is allot less
than most of the quotes Ive heard.
His home has one ; he as a family of 4,so they use allot more water
than I do.(kids, laundry, baths,etc)


I under stand they are suppose to be energy efficient.
I know they are more expensive to buy than regular water heaters but
it's possible that the energy savings might balance that out.

My biggest concern is I dont know allot of people who do have one, so I
don't know anyone to ask about the longevity of a tankless water heater
versus standard.

If you buy a standard water heater and take care of it and do the small
maintenace you should, they can last 20 years or more.

I like the uidea of the tankless water heater, off the floor, and
energy savings but if they only last a couple years, I'd like to know.


does anyone have one in their home and for how long have you had one?
your experience with it?
pros? cons? problems you have had?
brand names would help also.
thanks in advance.

"webmz1" wrote:


I have been considering getting a tankless water heater.
My neighbor owns several properties & swears by them.
He has someone who he buys them from for $250 each, which is allot less
than most of the quotes Ive heard.
His home has one ; he as a family of 4,so they use allot more water
than I do.(kids, laundry, baths,etc)


I under stand they are suppose to be energy efficient.
I know they are more expensive to buy than regular water heaters but
it's possible that the energy savings might balance that out.


If you'd like a reasonably unbiased report on tankless heaters, check this
whiepaper out. http://www.nyletherm.com/whitepaper2.pdf. It was written by an
engineer at AOSmith - a company that builds both types of water heaters.

I don't know what your neighbor is buying, but $250 is not going to get you a
whole house heater. On top of that, the installation costs (including upgrading
the electric feed, any other plumbing upgrades is going to wipe out any savings
you might see. Tankless has other issues as well - limited simultaneous users,
problems at low flow rates (think washing hands), etc.

Clark W. Griswold, Jr. wrote:

"webmz1" wrote:


I have been considering getting a tankless water heater.
My neighbor owns several properties & swears by them.
He has someone who he buys them from for $250 each, which is allot less
than most of the quotes Ive heard.
His home has one ; he as a family of 4,so they use allot more water
than I do.(kids, laundry, baths,etc)


I under stand they are suppose to be energy efficient.
I know they are more expensive to buy than regular water heaters but
it's possible that the energy savings might balance that out.



If you'd like a reasonably unbiased report on tankless heaters, check this
whiepaper out. http://www.nyletherm.com/whitepaper2.pdf. It was written by an
engineer at AOSmith - a company that builds both types of water heaters.

I don't know what your neighbor is buying, but $250 is not going to get you a
whole house heater. On top of that, the installation costs (including upgrading
the electric feed, any other plumbing upgrades is going to wipe out any savings
you might see. Tankless has other issues as well - limited simultaneous users,
problems at low flow rates (think washing hands), etc.

I don't think he specified an electric type (maybe gas??),
but you are certainly correct about needing a humongous feeder
for whole house elec water heater (tankless).

Jim

I was thinking of one of these for a bathroom that is on the other
side of the house from the water heater. You have to run the water
forever before it gets hot. Big waste of water and more water for the
septic tank to deal with.

The only type of tankless unit I'm aware of for $250 installed are the
type that sit under a sink and supply a gallon or two of very hot water
for making instant coffee and the like.

I have three 190,000 BTU Takagi T-KD20 gas fired tankless heaters
installed in rental units, one in my house, as well as one much larger
commercial unit. In my area, installed with all required accessories,
they are around $2,100 each.

The 190K BTU units are fine for a 1 BR setup, they supply two draws
(for example a shower *and* a dishwasher or clothes washer) with 124F
water from a 38F input.

However, these water heaters were selected for these locations on the
basis of physical size and direct vent design, they are NOT "cost
effective" on the basis of operating cost alone compared to a
conventional gas fired tank type heaters.

As for electric tankless, even the larger units typically work out to
1/2 of that total output, I'm not aware of any residential electric
unit that approaches the capacity of the gas-fired units. See for
example the notes on the limitations of this 240V/120A unit:

http://www.plumbingworld.com/wholeho...ctankless.html

Michael Thomas
Paragon Home Inspecton, LLC
Chicago, IL
mdtATparagonnspectsDOTcom
eight47-475-5668

GWB wrote:

I was thinking of one of these for a bathroom that is on the other
side of the house from the water heater. You have to run the water
forever before it gets hot. Big waste of water and more water for the
septic tank to deal with.

You may want to consider a recirculator. For a couple of hundred dollars, they
bridge the hot & cold lines at the bathroom and use the cold line as a return
with a pump circulating the water.

"MDT at Paragon Home Inspections, LLC"
wrote:

The 190K BTU units are fine for a 1 BR setup, they supply two draws
(for example a shower *and* a dishwasher or clothes washer) with 124F
water from a 38F input.

How do they handle low flow situations?

How do they handle low flow situations?

Per Takagi they require 0.75gpm to activate, and then around 0.6pgm
maintain operation. No problem for tubs, dishwashers and washers, a
potential problem with showers, and you will likely need to open taps
at BR sinks and the like half way or more - I've not found this an
issue in my own use, nor have my tenants, but some others have, and
it's certainly something to think about in an older house with poor
water flow.

BUT.... Takagi's Chicago field tech rep tells me that they have kept
track, and that around 85% of the time in new or retrofit installations
when customers complain the units "cut-out" it's caused inadequate gas
supply, not insufficient flow.

For example, when I see any of the gas fired TWHs served by ½" pipe,
or a TWH and a gas GFAF or boiler served by a common 3/4" line, I
check the manufacturer's installation instructions to be certain, but
in fact I'm pretty sure even before I do that the supply is undersized,
and the unit is likely achieving well below rated maximum output.

And this isn't just a problem in retrofits, based on my experiece
plumbers not familiar with TWHs will OFTEN undersize the gas supply in
new construction, they don't yet "get" that when they see a TWH they
need to check the tables and do the calculations instead of just
guesstimating - that the WH may require TWICE or more the gas supply
of the furnace or boiler.

I also know from experience that the plan examiners at many building
departments sometimes don't catch this either, nor do utilities - in
places like Chicago, were some areas still have low pressure NG
supplies, it may be necessary to install a larger capacity meter.

So IMO real-world the actual major potential problems in retrofits (and
to a lesser extent in new construction) of gas fired tankless units
a

1) inadequate gas supply and

2) if it's not a direct vent unit, combustion air - a 200,000 BTU TWH
may well exceed the CA requirements of the existing furnace.

Michael Thomas
Paragon Home Inspection, LLC
Chicago, IL
eight47-475-5668

"MDT at Paragon Home Inspections, LLC"
wrote:


Per Takagi they require 0.75gpm to activate, and then around 0.6pgm
maintain operation. No problem for tubs, dishwashers and washers, a
potential problem with showers, and you will likely need to open taps
at BR sinks and the like half way or more - I've not found this an
issue in my own use, nor have my tenants, but some others have, and
it's certainly something to think about in an older house with poor
water flow.

Interesting - thanks.

On 15 Jul 2006 19:37:50 -0700, "MDT at Paragon Home Inspections, LLC"
wrote:


Per Takagi they require 0.75gpm to activate, and then around 0.6pgm
maintain operation. No problem for tubs, dishwashers and washers, a
potential problem with showers, and you will likely need to open taps
at BR sinks and the like half way or more - I've not found this an
issue in my own use, nor have my tenants, but some others have, and
it's certainly something to think about in an older house with poor
water flow.

Those houses must have real poor plumbing. Low flow shower heads must
restrict flow to 2.5 gpm. Older unrestricted heads usually provided 5 gpm.

LDC wrote:
On 15 Jul 2006 19:37:50 -0700, "MDT at Paragon Home Inspections, LLC"
wrote:


Per Takagi they require 0.75gpm to activate, and then around 0.6pgm
maintain operation. No problem for tubs, dishwashers and washers, a
potential problem with showers, and you will likely need to open taps
at BR sinks and the like half way or more - I've not found this an
issue in my own use, nor have my tenants, but some others have, and
it's certainly something to think about in an older house with poor
water flow.

Those houses must have real poor plumbing. Low flow shower heads must
restrict flow to 2.5 gpm. Older unrestricted heads usually provided 5 gpm.

Depends a lot on age and construction. Around here it's common to
encounter 4O+ year old galvanized supplies, in such cases it's quite
possible you are NEVER getting .75gpm at some fixtures served by ½"
pipes - especially on the HW side it's not uncommon to see little more
than a trickle at a second or third floor bathroom sink.

Then, there's the stuff that's plumbed with 3/8" galvanized....

Michael Thomas
Paragon Home Inspection, LLC
Chicago, IL
mdtATparagoninspectsDOTcom
eight47-475-5668

I have a Bosch 250SX in my house. Works well and vents in 3" which was
important for me in a retrofit situation in my old victorian.

Why Gas Tankless?
- Higher Efficiency 87% vs. 65% (tank)
- Only on when you need it
- Longer Life 20+ years vs. 7-10 (more with maintance)
- Small Wall Hung Profile 30"x15"
- Typical savings is 30%
- Endless Hot Water when sized correctly
- The new $300 Energy Tax Credit Bill applies to energy efficient gas
water heaters with an energy rating of 0.80. Most Bosch Gas Tankless
Water Heaters and Takagi Water Heaters meet the requirements of this
bill.


Hot water heating accounts for 20% or more of the average United States
household's annual energy costs. The average yearly costs for
conventional gas or electric storage hot water heater is $200 or $450,
respectively.

Demand tankless water heaters are what the majority of folks use in the
rest of the world. They began appearing in the United States about 25
years ago. Unlike "conventional" tank water heaters, tankless water
heaters heat water only as it is used, or on demand. Even if no hot
water is drawn from the tank, the a tank's burner will operate
periodically to maintain the water temperature. This is due to "standby
losses": the heat conducted and radiated from the walls of the
tank-and in gas-fired water heaters-through the flue pipe. These
standby losses represent 10% to 20% of a household's annual water
heating costs. The way to reduce this ever rising cost is to use a
tankless water heater.

How much to Install?

For most people, it is half a day for a competent plumber. I pay my
plumber $60 an hour, so budget about $400 for a typical install. If you
need to replace your gas line then you can expect to pay more. 90% of
the tankless units require a ¾ inch gas line because of the amount of
BTU's involved. Here is some actual install data on the total cost
from the State of Oregon web site:

Year Avg. Installed Costs(with gas unit)
2002 $1,322
2003 $1,384
2004 $1,414
2005 $1,471

I don't know of any gas units that are CSA approved for $250. The
cheapest unit would be a Bosch 125B recon(one shower, standing pilot).
You can find one he

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/speci...cialitems1.htm

Another option is a TK-JR which sells for mid $500's but you get the
$300 dollar federal tax credit. You can find that he

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/Heati...agitkjrbuy.asp

Alec
webmz1 wrote:
I bought an old house 13 years ago and they didnt really maintain
anything, so my water heater could go any day.

I have been considering getting a tankless water heater.
My neighbor owns several properties & swears by them.
He has someone who he buys them from for $250 each, which is allot less
than most of the quotes Ive heard.
His home has one ; he as a family of 4,so they use allot more water
than I do.(kids, laundry, baths,etc)


I under stand they are suppose to be energy efficient.
I know they are more expensive to buy than regular water heaters but
it's possible that the energy savings might balance that out.

My biggest concern is I dont know allot of people who do have one, so I
don't know anyone to ask about the longevity of a tankless water heater
versus standard.

If you buy a standard water heater and take care of it and do the small
maintenace you should, they can last 20 years or more.

I like the uidea of the tankless water heater, off the floor, and
energy savings but if they only last a couple years, I'd like to know.


does anyone have one in their home and for how long have you had one?
your experience with it?
pros? cons? problems you have had?
brand names would help also.
thanks in advance.

"Alec" writes:

For most people, it is half a day for a competent plumber. I pay my
plumber $60 an hour, so budget about $400 for a typical install. If you
need to replace your gas line then you can expect to pay more. 90% of
the tankless units require a ¾ inch gas line because of the amount of
BTU's involved.

Good info.

The other cost not reflected in the statement above--and the reason I
personaly shied from tankless on a recent replacement myself was the
replacement of the flue that would be needed. Tankless needs not
only larger gas supply lines, but also more combustion air and a
larger diameter flue.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd,

As to vent size:
While that is true of a naturaly drafted unit like a Bosch 125B(5"
B-Vent) that is not the case with a 250SX which used 3" venting(3" is
the size of most tank vents). You will have to replace the venting
which must be stainless steel but a side wall vent kit cost $152. If
you have to run up throught the roof then you can be looking at $500+.

Alec

Todd H. wrote:
"Alec" writes:

For most people, it is half a day for a competent plumber. I pay my
plumber $60 an hour, so budget about $400 for a typical install. If you
need to replace your gas line then you can expect to pay more. 90% of
the tankless units require a ¾ inch gas line because of the amount of
BTU's involved.

Good info.

The other cost not reflected in the statement above--and the reason I
personaly shied from tankless on a recent replacement myself was the
replacement of the flue that would be needed. Tankless needs not
only larger gas supply lines, but also more combustion air and a
larger diameter flue.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/