service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

Jon wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.


R.I.P. Moron.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

Jon
wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 02:45

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs,

"your needs?" but not the needs of others? How selfish.

I ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

You really are both stupid and stubborn.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be
energized 24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still
be ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the
feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the
generator. If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator
is on, there will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any
problems will throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the
generator will still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

You cretin. What if the lose of your utility supply is due to your incoming
wire having dropped off the pole? You won't be connected to the local
network, but your wire in the street is now live.


I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my
resources are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas
or they just don't know.

I'm glad you don't live anywhere near me.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jon wrote:
service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.


R.I.P. Moron.

More likely this post can be used to show that he killed a linesman
deliberately after having been warned publicly that what he proposed was
dangerously unsafe and against all installation codes. It is no longer
accidental manslaughter when the danger has been clearly explained.

It isn't like he doesn't understand. Definitely headed for a Darwin
award. Pity he will take out some poor linesman out in the process.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon"
wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work,

Work? Not likely. Safely? Never.

I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator.

And screw any innocent people, and utility workers who get hurt
because you are stupid.

The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?

All we hear is an idiot who cares for no one else but himself and his
pocket book.

It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm.

As Phil would put it: "You are a clueless ******."

It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

Do it properly. Use a proper transfer switch. But you don't care about
anyone but yourself.

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:25:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jon wrote:

...
All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.



R.I.P. Moron.

Unfortunately the only person who will be RIP will be someone other
than the moron who posted this thread.

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:30:16 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

Jon
wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 02:45

service

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs,

"your needs?" but not the needs of others? How selfish.

I ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

You really are both stupid and stubborn.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be
...

You cretin. What if the lose of your utility supply is due to your incoming
wire having dropped off the pole? You won't be connected to the local
network, but your wire in the street is now live.


I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my
resources are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas
or they just don't know.

I'm glad you don't live anywhere near me.

If only we could confirm he does not live near any of us. His IP is
MIDDLEBURG Virginia, but that may be forged or hacked.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon" wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

---
Then you're either a bull-headed idiot or a troll.
---

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

---
That's not true.
---

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

---
I'm sure the breaker on the generator is rated to trip some time after
the current _out_ of the generator exceeds some level.

All bets are off when the generator is run like a sink.
---

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

---
If the voltage that gets to the lineman won't make it to above a volt,
then that'll be your generator output voltage, which means your scheme
won't work.
---

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

---
Nonsense.

Where does it say that just because we know how to do something we
should share it with someone who appears to be irresponsible?

JF

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:13:46 -0600, John Fields
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon" wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

---
Then you're either a bull-headed idiot or a troll.
---

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

---
That's not true.
---

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

---
I'm sure the breaker on the generator is rated to trip some time after
the current _out_ of the generator exceeds some level.

All bets are off when the generator is run like a sink.
---

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

---
If the voltage that gets to the lineman won't make it to above a volt,
then that'll be your generator output voltage, which means your scheme
won't work.
---

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

---
Nonsense.

Where does it say that just because we know how to do something we
should share it with someone who appears to be irresponsible?

JF

Don't knock natural selection... it's 100% effective ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson
wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 17:19


Don't knock natural selection... it's 100% effective ;-)

...Jim Thompson

That would be valid if the fool was only at risk of killing himself. I'm all
for a man doing as he pleases on his own land (the UK is bogged down by
regulations - you need Building Control to change a window here!).

But what Comrade Jerkov here keeps failing to see is the effect he may have
on someone not on his land. Despite being told, politely, then in no
uncertain terms.



--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon"
wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.

No, this will not work.

When the external power goes out, the relay will be de-energised,
causing the generator to start, and to be connected to your loads, and
to the outside power distribution system, and to your control relay,
which will promptly turn off the generator. More likely, other loads
on the outside distribution system will overload the generator, either
causing it to stall, or tripping its output breaker. The generator
will energise the outside distribution system, at least briefly,
potentially causing electrocution hazards to others.


snip

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

Read, understand, and follow the NEC's requirements for standby
generator wiring.

There are two safe, legal, ways to do this. One is to use an approved
automatic transfer switch. The other is to use two
mechanically-interlocked switches or breakers arranged so that either
commercial power or your generator (but never both) can feed your
house and barn. The latter system, of course requires manual
operation when switching to or from the generator.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:34:28 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

Jim Thompson
wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 17:19


Don't knock natural selection... it's 100% effective ;-)

...Jim Thompson

That would be valid if the fool was only at risk of killing himself. I'm all
for a man doing as he pleases on his own land (the UK is bogged down by
regulations - you need Building Control to change a window here!).

But what Comrade Jerkov here keeps failing to see is the effect he may have
on someone not on his land. Despite being told, politely, then in no
uncertain terms.

Haven't been paying close attention... do we know where he is?

Simply send copies of his posts to the local building code authorities
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson
wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 19:11

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:34:28 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

Jim Thompson
wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 17:19


Don't knock natural selection... it's 100% effective ;-)

...Jim Thompson

That would be valid if the fool was only at risk of killing himself. I'm
all for a man doing as he pleases on his own land (the UK is bogged down
by regulations - you need Building Control to change a window here!).

But what Comrade Jerkov here keeps failing to see is the effect he may
have on someone not on his land. Despite being told, politely, then in no
uncertain terms.

Haven't been paying close attention... do we know where he is?

Someone took a guess by the posting IP.

Simply send copies of his posts to the local building code authorities
;-)

And the leccy company. Dunno about you all, but over here, this would
probably be grounds for using emergency access powers, without warrant, by a
supply engineer (with police escort) and forced disconnection of supply.

...Jim Thompson

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon"
wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.



I agree with Peter Bennett on this, it will not work, there's no way
to seperate your "signal" from your feed line, as soon as the genertor
puts out voltage (assuming, as Peter says, it doesn't get loaded down
by your neighbours) the relay will pull in again shutting your
generator off. By the way, simply energising the igniton doesn't mean
it will start, for that you need a starter contactor, a timer to run
it & a whole bunch of other stuff to handle "won't start" situations.
By the way, are youe *sure8 that fourth wire isn't there as a ground?

or a neutral?


All I care about is protecting the generator.

a) this is clearly criminaly negligent

&

b) actually this is pretty ggod way to to fry your generator, and all
your appliances- see below.

The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

What happens when the coil burns out?


* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.

With your design leaving the swith on or off is immaterial to powering
the house. thats assuming you arn't trying to power the whole
meighbourhood, see below.


* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

The last time I'm aware of a genset feeding a building load at the
same time as mains came in it blew every fuse in the building. Since
it was my boss who did it everyone though it was hilariously funny
except for upper managment who were understandably perturbed that a
cross country (& trans atlantic) telecommunications relay system was
down flat for 2 hours while a suitable number of new fuses were found
& installed.


I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,

If you can't afford one of these

http://shop.ebay.ca/?_from=R40&_trks...All-Categories

then you can't afford fuel for your genset anyhow.

and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily.
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm.

If you beleive that than your understanding of basic eletricity is
sorely lacking. If your genset is isn't so loaded down by the
neighborhood load that it stalls out or the breaker pops (assumiong
the genset has a breaker) then it's putting out lethal voltages into
the primary lines. sure, you say you''ll turn off the main breaker to
isolate yourself from the grid but what happens if you arn't at home?
What iff you arn't at home & the power is down beacuse linemen are
working on the primaries and now your genset is backfeeding them? Are
you really so callous about endangering the lives of the linemen?

probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

Scared? Nobody in this thread has come across as scared, just
knowledgable are responsible. I'm no big fan of over-regulation & the
resultant inspector burocracy but it's a sad fact that if it wern't
for people doing stupid things (yes, like you're- against *ALL* good
advice thats been given- about to) we wouldn't have most of the rules
we do have.

I've done some truly, remarkably, stupid things in my life, sometimes
against all good advice. Take it from a pro, you're heading down the
wrong road on this.

H.

PeterD wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:25:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jon wrote:

...
All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.



R.I.P. Moron.

Unfortunately the only person who will be RIP will be someone other
than the moron who posted this thread.


His IP resolves to: Middleburg, Virginia. Maybe the local
authorities would like to hear about his plans?




IP Information - 4.248.254.21
IP address: 4.248.254.21
Reverse DNS:
dialup-4.248.254.21.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 3356
ASN Name: Level3 (Level 3 Communications)
IP range connectivity: 2
Registrar (per ASN): RIPE
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 4.0.0.0 to 4.255.255.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): Middleburg, Virginia
Country (per outside source): US [United States]
Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 4.248.254.21


http://www.middleburg.org/dept.htm

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:28:11 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


PeterD wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:25:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jon wrote:

...
All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.



R.I.P. Moron.

Unfortunately the only person who will be RIP will be someone other
than the moron who posted this thread.


His IP resolves to: Middleburg, Virginia. Maybe the local
authorities would like to hear about his plans?




IP Information - 4.248.254.21
IP address: 4.248.254.21
Reverse DNS:
dialup-4.248.254.21.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 3356
ASN Name: Level3 (Level 3 Communications)
IP range connectivity: 2
Registrar (per ASN): RIPE
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 4.0.0.0 to 4.255.255.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): Middleburg, Virginia
Country (per outside source): US [United States]
Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 4.248.254.21


http://www.middleburg.org/dept.htm

Michael, Can't you just forward this whole thread to Middleburg, and
let them draw their own conclusions ?:-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:28:11 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


PeterD wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:25:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jon wrote:

...
All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.



R.I.P. Moron.

Unfortunately the only person who will be RIP will be someone other
than the moron who posted this thread.


His IP resolves to: Middleburg, Virginia. Maybe the local
authorities would like to hear about his plans?




IP Information - 4.248.254.21
IP address: 4.248.254.21
Reverse DNS:
dialup-4.248.254.21.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 3356
ASN Name: Level3 (Level 3 Communications)
IP range connectivity: 2
Registrar (per ASN): RIPE
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 4.0.0.0 to 4.255.255.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): Middleburg, Virginia
Country (per outside source): US [United States]
Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 4.248.254.21


http://www.middleburg.org/dept.htm

Michael, Can't you just forward this whole thread to Middleburg, and
let them draw their own conclusions ?:-)


I would prefer that someone in that area make the report so it would
get more attention.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

Mark wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:45 pm, "Jon" wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.


As I see it, with this system power will not ever be fed back into the
grid, anytime there is power at the "service" terminal the generator
will be disconnected by the NC contacts and the ignition will be
killed by the NO contacts...

Wrong. It will feed power back to the grid *EVERY* time the grid power
is restored with the mains switch still on and the genset running.
When the mains power is restored, it will take some period of time
for the relay to move the contacts off of the N/C position. During
that brief period the genset will be connected to the grid. That
period, no matter how brief, contradicts "not ever".

His ONLY means of "not ever" feeding power back to the grid with
his hairbrained scheme is to trip the main breaker. Even then, note
that he is tapping power from the service panel BEFORE the main
breaker, which itself is a serious hazard. A short from genset
output to the signal wire will feed power out via the signal
wire, even if the mains breaker is tripped. So even with the
main breaker tripped, we cannot accurately state that power
will not ever be fed back to the grid.

And there's more. What happens when the N/C contacts weld? Or the
N/O contact goes open? Or the coil fails? Or the unfused signal
wire shorts to ground? Or goes open somewhere between the mains
and the relay?

Ed




Mark

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon" wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis


This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

You have been told the right way several times. You did not read what you
need to know. This has safety and operational issues that you are willfully
ignoring. Your design will not work, and it may kill people including your
own family members.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.

No it won't!! Your generator will them be tasked with powering up all of your
neighbors, perhaps for many miles until that main is manually switched.
And 10 kW ain't nearly enough to power all your neighbors, then the genset dies,
perhaps with gouts of flame. Get the picture?

Get a pro to install an Automatic Bus Transfer Switch (ABT) and an automatic
generator starter circuit.

* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

No it won't as described above.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?

Wannabe. It is neither effective nor workable.

It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm.

Depends on how close the lineman is.

It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

And that means there won't be any left for you without the transfer switch.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before.

Like Hell! You do not understand what it has to say about emergency power
systems.

However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

They have been giving you better ideas, you just do not want to use them.

I do know, it is part of what they test for when you take the PE examination
for electrical engineers. I have had my license for 15 years. And i do
know what i am talking about.

On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:36:42 -0800 (PST), Mark wrote:

On Feb 28, 9:45*pm, "Jon" wrote:
* * * *service

120vac * * * *120vac * * * signal
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* o * * * * * * o------------*
* *\ * main * * *\ * * * * * |
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *house * *| * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *barn * * | * * * * *(COIL)
*--- * * * * * --- * * * * * | * * * generator ignition
*-/- N.C. * * *-/- N.C.. * * | * * * * * * * o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *| * * * * * * * |
* o generator * o * * * * * *| * * * * * * *---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * --- * * * * * * --- N.O.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *- * * * * * * * |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * gnd * * * * * * *|
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. *The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.

As I see it, with this system power will not ever be fed back into the
grid, anytime there is power at the "service" terminal the generator
will be disconnected by the NC contacts and the ignition will be
killed by the NO contacts...

Mark

His genset starts and connects to the existing house and barn bus, the
existing main is still on, thus he tries to power up all his neighbors
for miles around.

As I see it, with this system power will not ever be fed back into the
grid, anytime there is power at the "service" terminal the generator
will be disconnected by the NC contacts and the ignition will be
killed by the NO contacts...

Wrong. It will feed power back to the grid *EVERY* time the grid power
is restored with the mains switch still on and the genset running.

The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever the main
switch is on.
The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever there is
grid power at the service terminal.

Mark

Mark
wibbled on Tuesday 02 March 2010 15:00



As I see it, with this system power will not ever be fed back into the
grid, anytime there is power at the "service" terminal the generator
will be disconnected by the NC contacts and the ignition will be
killed by the NO contacts...

Wrong. It will feed power back to the grid *EVERY* time the grid power
is restored with the mains switch still on and the genset running.

The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever the main
switch is on.
The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever there is
grid power at the service terminal.

Mark

Please don't encourage him.

With all due respect, in this context it doesn't matter if the logic is
"right", the design is wrong. Too many potential fail-hazard scenarios which
are easily avoided.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Hi Tim,

Tim Watts wrote:
Please don't encourage him.

With all due respect, in this context it doesn't matter if the logic is
"right", the design is wrong. Too many potential fail-hazard scenarios which
are easily avoided.

I think he should build himself a tokamak and eliminate the
dependency altogether! ;-)

Mark wrote:
As I see it, with this system power will not ever be fed back into the
grid, anytime there is power at the "service" terminal the generator
will be disconnected by the NC contacts and the ignition will be
killed by the NO contacts...

Wrong. It will feed power back to the grid *EVERY* time the grid power
is restored with the mains switch still on and the genset running.


The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever the main
switch is on.

Of course it can. Utility power drops, the "killing" relay
drops, the genset starts. Some amount of time later it
comes up to speed, and depending on his hairbrained wiring,
the relay energizes from the generator produced power. Relays
do not transfer instantaneously. It takes time for the relay
contacts to move. During the time that the N/C contacts remain
closed, generator power is fed out through the mains breaker to
the grid. Again, that contradicts you contention that generator
power is "not ever" connected to the grid. Some number of
miliseconds after that the N/O contact makes, which kills the
genset.

Or, if there is a defect, the relay does not kill the genset.


The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever there is
grid power at the service terminal.

The point that was made addressed grid power at the service panel
transitioning from off to on. You snipped the following:

***begin quote***
When the mains power is restored, it will take some period of time
for the relay to move the contacts off of the N/C position. During
that brief period the genset will be connected to the grid. That
period, no matter how brief, contradicts "not ever".
***end quote***

Transfer equipment must be 100% fail safe. It must ensure that
the genset is never ever connected to the grid. Not for 1 second.
Not for 1 milisecond. Not for 1 microsecond. Not for 1 nanosecond.
NEVER.

His proposed circuit is not only NOT fail safe, it is highly failure
prone, AND it can connect the genset, however briefly, to the grid
even if the circuit has no failure, as discussed above. It fails,
even with no bad components, because the design is wrong.

Ed



Mark

ehsjr wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:45 pm, "Jon" wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.


As I see it, with this system power will not ever be fed back into the
grid, anytime there is power at the "service" terminal the generator
will be disconnected by the NC contacts and the ignition will be
killed by the NO contacts...

Wrong. It will feed power back to the grid *EVERY* time the grid power
is restored with the mains switch still on and the genset running.
When the mains power is restored, it will take some period of time
for the relay to move the contacts off of the N/C position. During
that brief period the genset will be connected to the grid. That
period, no matter how brief, contradicts "not ever".

His ONLY means of "not ever" feeding power back to the grid with
his hairbrained scheme is to trip the main breaker. Even then, note
that he is tapping power from the service panel BEFORE the main
breaker, which itself is a serious hazard. A short from genset
output to the signal wire will feed power out via the signal
wire, even if the mains breaker is tripped. So even with the
main breaker tripped, we cannot accurately state that power
will not ever be fed back to the grid.

And there's more. What happens when the N/C contacts weld? Or the
N/O contact goes open? Or the coil fails? Or the unfused signal
wire shorts to ground? Or goes open somewhere between the mains
and the relay?


The generator rips loose from its mount as it explodes, and burns
down his barn?


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 03:04:16 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

ehsjr wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:45 pm, "Jon" wrote:

service

120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition -/- N.C.
-/- N.C.. | o
| | | | o generator o
| ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my
needs, I ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be
energized 24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it
means we forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power
into the grid.


As I see it, with this system power will not ever be fed back into
the grid, anytime there is power at the "service" terminal the
generator will be disconnected by the NC contacts and the ignition
will be killed by the NO contacts...

Wrong. It will feed power back to the grid *EVERY* time the grid power
is restored with the mains switch still on and the genset running. When
the mains power is restored, it will take some period of time for the
relay to move the contacts off of the N/C position. During that brief
period the genset will be connected to the grid. That period, no
matter how brief, contradicts "not ever".

His ONLY means of "not ever" feeding power back to the grid with his
hairbrained scheme is to trip the main breaker. Even then, note that
he is tapping power from the service panel BEFORE the main breaker,
which itself is a serious hazard. A short from genset output to the
signal wire will feed power out via the signal wire, even if the mains
breaker is tripped. So even with the main breaker tripped, we cannot
accurately state that power will not ever be fed back to the grid.

And there's more. What happens when the N/C contacts weld? Or the N/O
contact goes open? Or the coil fails? Or the unfused signal wire
shorts to ground? Or goes open somewhere between the mains and the
relay?


The generator rips loose from its mount as it explodes, and burns
down his barn?

Then the insurance company finds the non-code hookup in the rubble and
refuses to pay.

But a more likely scenario is he backfeeds the local bit of grid through
the transformer up to the local medium voltage, the linesman comes out
and disconnects the faulty section from the grid, proceeds to repair the
fault and is electrocuted. This has happened more than once, and is the
main reason a *TRANSFER SWITCH* is *REQUIRED* BY ALL ELECTRICAL CODES.
Only a fool would fail to use this simple, low cost method of protecting
the grid from backfeed.

Anyone aware of a non-code generator hookup has a moral obligation to
report it to the local utility or building inspector. This kind of
hookup has killed too many people already.

On Feb 28, 9:45*pm, "Jon" wrote:
* * * *service

120vac * * * *120vac * * * signal
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* o * * * * * * o------------*
* *\ * main * * *\ * * * * * |
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *house * *| * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *barn * * | * * * * *(COIL)
*--- * * * * * --- * * * * * | * * * generator ignition
*-/- N.C. * * *-/- N.C.. * * | * * * * * * * o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *| * * * * * * * |
* o generator * o * * * * * *| * * * * * * *---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * --- * * * * * * --- N.O.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *- * * * * * * * |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * gnd * * * * * * *|
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. *The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid..
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. *The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. *If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. *Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. *By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. *It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. *The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. *However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

You've obviously never seen electric disconnects fused together, have
you?
Tell you what, you hold this wire, and I'll go down the street and
fire up my generator.
We'll assume the utility is off for this discussion.

On Mar 1, 12:19*pm, Jim Thompson To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-
Web-Site.com wrote:
On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:13:46 -0600, John Fields





wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon" wrote:

* * * service

120vac * * * *120vac * * * signal
*o * * * * * * o * * * * * *o
*| * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
*o * * * * * * o------------*
* \ * main * * *\ * * * * * |
*o * * * * * * o * * * * * *|
*| * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
*| * *house * *| * * * * * *|
*| * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
*| * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
*| * *barn * * | * * * * *(COIL)
--- * * * * * --- * * * * * | * * * generator ignition
-/- N.C. * * *-/- N.C.. * * | * * * * * * * o
*| * * * * * * | * * * * * *| * * * * * * * |
*o generator * o * * * * * *| * * * * * * *---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *--- * * * * * * --- N.O.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * - * * * * * * * |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *gnd * * * * * * *|
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

---
Then you're either a bull-headed idiot or a troll.
---

All I care about is protecting the generator. *The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

---
That's not true.
---

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. *The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. *If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

---
I'm sure the breaker on the generator is rated to trip some time after
the current _out_ of the generator exceeds some level. *

All bets are off when the generator is run like a sink.
---

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. *Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. *By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. *It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. *The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

---
If the voltage that gets to the lineman won't make it to above a volt,
then that'll be your generator output voltage, which means your scheme
won't work.
---

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. *However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

---
Nonsense.

Where does it say that just because we know how to do something we
should share it with someone who appears to be irresponsible?

JF

Don't knock natural selection... it's 100% effective ;-)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO * * * * * * * * * * * * * *| * *mens * * |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * | * * et * * *|
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems *| * *manus * *|
| Phoenix, Arizona *85048 * *Skype: Contacts Only *| * * * * * * |
| Voice480)460-2350 *Fax: Available upon request | *Brass Rat *|
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com| * *1962 * * |

I love to cook with wine. * * Sometimes I even put it in the food.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How did you get here then?

Sorry, just kidding. Couldn't resist!
But all you have to do is look around and you (esp. the government, or
TSA) and you know your statement can't possibly be true!!

-mpm

On Feb 28, 9:45*pm, "Jon" wrote:
* * * *service

120vac * * * *120vac * * * signal
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* o * * * * * * o------------*
* *\ * main * * *\ * * * * * |
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *house * *| * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *barn * * | * * * * *(COIL)
*--- * * * * * --- * * * * * | * * * generator ignition
*-/- N.C. * * *-/- N.C.. * * | * * * * * * * o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *| * * * * * * * |
* o generator * o * * * * * *| * * * * * * *---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * --- * * * * * * --- N.O.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *- * * * * * * * |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * gnd * * * * * * *|
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. *The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid..
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. *The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. *If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. *Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. *By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. *It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. *The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. *However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it would let you
anywhere near it!

On Mar 3, 6:22*pm, mpm wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:45*pm, "Jon" wrote:





* * * *service

120vac * * * *120vac * * * signal
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* o * * * * * * o------------*
* *\ * main * * *\ * * * * * |
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *house * *| * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *barn * * | * * * * *(COIL)
*--- * * * * * --- * * * * * | * * * generator ignition
*-/- N.C. * * *-/- N.C.. * * | * * * * * * * o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *| * * * * * * * |
* o generator * o * * * * * *| * * * * * * *---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * --- * * * * * * --- N.O.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *- * * * * * * * |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * gnd * * * * * * *|
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. *The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. *The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. *If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. *Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. *By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. *It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. *The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. *However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it would let you
anywhere near it!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK - let's try this again ---

Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it WOULDN'T let you
anywhere near it!



I've noticed lately, that my typing make very simple mistakes like
that.
So, either I'm going bonkers, or this keyboard is complete ****, or
some background process is deliberately changing what I type.
It's been happening for about 2 or 3 months now (that I can detect).

I type very fast, and am not in the habit of proofing everything I
write online.
But I guess I'll have to start, now. Or go get a brainscan.
This sort of stuff really ****es me off.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:31:10 -0800 (PST), mpm
wrote:

On Mar 3, 6:22*pm, mpm wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:45*pm, "Jon" wrote:





* * * *service

120vac * * * *120vac * * * signal
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* o * * * * * * o------------*
* *\ * main * * *\ * * * * * |
* o * * * * * * o * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *house * *| * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *|
* | * *barn * * | * * * * *(COIL)
*--- * * * * * --- * * * * * | * * * generator ignition
*-/- N.C. * * *-/- N.C.. * * | * * * * * * * o
* | * * * * * * | * * * * * *| * * * * * * * |
* o generator * o * * * * * *| * * * * * * *---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * --- * * * * * * --- N.O.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *- * * * * * * * |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * gnd * * * * * * *|
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. *The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. *The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. *If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. *Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. *By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. *It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. *The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. *However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.

Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it would let you
anywhere near it!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK - let's try this again ---

Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it WOULDN'T let you
anywhere near it!



I've noticed lately, that my typing make very simple mistakes like
that.
So, either I'm going bonkers, or this keyboard is complete ****, or
some background process is deliberately changing what I type.
It's been happening for about 2 or 3 months now (that I can detect).

I type very fast, and am not in the habit of proofing everything I
write online.
But I guess I'll have to start, now. Or go get a brainscan.
This sort of stuff really ****es me off.

Look as best I can see, your first version was the correct one. Even
the generator wants to kill him off before he kills someone else!