"Jimmie" wrote in message
...

"Don Kelly" wrote in message
news:B6wKe.180654$s54.136019@pd7tw2no...
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...
John Fields wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:14:37 GMT, "JoeSixPack"
wrote:

Before you attack this post, saying electrons can only travel at the
speed
of light, that's incorrect. The electrons themselves can travel any
speed,

---
No, they can only travel at speeds less than the speed of light.
---

but the voltage wave produced does travel at 300,000 kms per second.

---
It's not a "voltage" wave, it's an electromagnetic wave, and it can
only propagate at the speed of light in a vacuum.

Either an Electrolux or a Hoover.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
APL is a write-only language. I can write programs in APL, but I
can't read any of them.
-- Roy Keir

Of course you can read APL programs- it's just that the necessary
comments are far,far longer than the program itself!

--

Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------


Electrons travel way slower than light speed. Slower than walking speed as
a matter of fact in a conductor. Their speed is determined by current and
the size of the wire. Figured this up a long time ago and seemed like I
rember the answer being in less than an inch per second but that does seem
awful slow and I would not bet on it. I do know we figured that a
conductor would explode if the electrons were traveling at five miles per
hour. This was not the point at which wires exploded but just a speed we
pulled out of the hat and discovered that the current to size ratio needed
to get this speed was impractical.. I m sure you could Google the subject
and get better info than I have provided.


Okay, I tell ya what. We gonna get some wire, a good power supply and a
light bulb. We'll string out, oh say, 1/4 mile. You get the fastest car
you can find, hell, get an airplane or a rocket if you want. I'll throw
the switch and if you can get whatever vehicle you find to the other end of
the wire before the light is lit I'll give ya $100,000 if you loose, you pay
me the $100K. Deal? Hell, I'll even give ya a head start....



Lol



The VoP or Velocity of Propagation of most wire or cable can be looked up.
I belive the average is around 60% of C. Somewhere around 111,000
miles/second. That is over 6 Million MPH.



I hate it when them conductors explode.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_of_propagation

"DBLEXPOSURE" wrote in message
news

"Jimmie" wrote in message
...

"Don Kelly" wrote in message
news:B6wKe.180654$s54.136019@pd7tw2no...
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...
John Fields wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:14:37 GMT, "JoeSixPack"
wrote:

Before you attack this post, saying electrons can only travel at the
speed
of light, that's incorrect. The electrons themselves can travel any
speed,

---
No, they can only travel at speeds less than the speed of light.
---

but the voltage wave produced does travel at 300,000 kms per second.

---
It's not a "voltage" wave, it's an electromagnetic wave, and it can
only propagate at the speed of light in a vacuum.

Either an Electrolux or a Hoover.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
APL is a write-only language. I can write programs in APL, but I
can't read any of them.
-- Roy Keir

Of course you can read APL programs- it's just that the necessary
comments are far,far longer than the program itself!

--

Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------


Electrons travel way slower than light speed. Slower than walking speed
as
a matter of fact in a conductor. Their speed is determined by current
and
the size of the wire. Figured this up a long time ago and seemed like I
rember the answer being in less than an inch per second but that does
seem
awful slow and I would not bet on it. I do know we figured that a
conductor would explode if the electrons were traveling at five miles
per
hour. This was not the point at which wires exploded but just a speed we
pulled out of the hat and discovered that the current to size ratio
needed
to get this speed was impractical.. I m sure you could Google the
subject
and get better info than I have provided.


Okay, I tell ya what. We gonna get some wire, a good power supply and a
light bulb. We'll string out, oh say, 1/4 mile. You get the fastest car
you can find, hell, get an airplane or a rocket if you want. I'll throw
the switch and if you can get whatever vehicle you find to the other end
of
the wire before the light is lit I'll give ya $100,000 if you loose, you
pay
me the $100K. Deal? Hell, I'll even give ya a head start....



Exactly !!! (Ha Ha)


Lol



The VoP or Velocity of Propagation of most wire or cable can be looked up.
I belive the average is around 60% of C. Somewhere around 111,000
miles/second. That is over 6 Million MPH.



I hate it when them conductors explode.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_of_propagation

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:42:50 -0500, "DBLEXPOSURE"
wrote:


"Jimmie" wrote in message
m...
Electrons travel way slower than light speed. Slower than walking speed as
a matter of fact in a conductor.

Okay, I tell ya what. We gonna get some wire, a good power supply and a
light bulb. We'll string out, oh say, 1/4 mile. You get the fastest car
you can find, hell, get an airplane or a rocket if you want. I'll throw
the switch and if you can get whatever vehicle you find to the other end of
the wire before the light is lit I'll give ya $100,000 if you loose, you pay
me the $100K. Deal? Hell, I'll even give ya a head start....

---
What he was saying was that it takes an individual electron a long
time to traverse the wire, not that it takes charge a long time.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

DBLEXPOSURE wrote:
"Jimmie" wrote in message
...

"Don Kelly" wrote in message
news:B6wKe.180654$s54.136019@pd7tw2no...

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...

John Fields wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:14:37 GMT, "JoeSixPack"
wrote:


Before you attack this post, saying electrons can only travel at the
speed
of light, that's incorrect. The electrons themselves can travel any
speed,

---
No, they can only travel at speeds less than the speed of light.
---


but the voltage wave produced does travel at 300,000 kms per second.

---
It's not a "voltage" wave, it's an electromagnetic wave, and it can
only propagate at the speed of light in a vacuum.

Either an Electrolux or a Hoover.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
APL is a write-only language. I can write programs in APL, but I
can't read any of them.
-- Roy Keir

Of course you can read APL programs- it's just that the necessary
comments are far,far longer than the program itself!

--

Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------



Electrons travel way slower than light speed. Slower than walking speed as
a matter of fact in a conductor. Their speed is determined by current and
the size of the wire. Figured this up a long time ago and seemed like I
rember the answer being in less than an inch per second but that does seem
awful slow and I would not bet on it. I do know we figured that a
conductor would explode if the electrons were traveling at five miles per
hour. This was not the point at which wires exploded but just a speed we
pulled out of the hat and discovered that the current to size ratio needed
to get this speed was impractical.. I m sure you could Google the subject
and get better info than I have provided.



Okay, I tell ya what. We gonna get some wire, a good power supply and a
light bulb. We'll string out, oh say, 1/4 mile. You get the fastest car
you can find, hell, get an airplane or a rocket if you want. I'll throw
the switch and if you can get whatever vehicle you find to the other end of
the wire before the light is lit I'll give ya $100,000 if you loose, you pay
me the $100K. Deal? Hell, I'll even give ya a head start....



Conceptually, let's say we paint one electron purple with yellow
polka dots so that we can easily identify it. Are you saying that
when the starting gun for this race goes off, that specially
painted electron enters the near end of the 1/4 mile wire, and that
same specially painted electron arrives at the far end of the
wire *before* the race car?

Ed

"ehsjr" wrote in message
news:HHrNe.121$IG2.79@trndny01...
DBLEXPOSURE wrote:
"Jimmie" wrote in message
...

"Don Kelly" wrote in message
news:B6wKe.180654$s54.136019@pd7tw2no...

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...

John Fields wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:14:37 GMT, "JoeSixPack"
wrote:


Before you attack this post, saying electrons can only travel at the
speed
of light, that's incorrect. The electrons themselves can travel any
speed,

---
No, they can only travel at speeds less than the speed of light.
---


but the voltage wave produced does travel at 300,000 kms per second.

---
It's not a "voltage" wave, it's an electromagnetic wave, and it can
only propagate at the speed of light in a vacuum.

Either an Electrolux or a Hoover.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
APL is a write-only language. I can write programs in APL, but I
can't read any of them.
-- Roy Keir

Of course you can read APL programs- it's just that the necessary
comments are far,far longer than the program itself!

--

Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------



Electrons travel way slower than light speed. Slower than walking speed
as a matter of fact in a conductor. Their speed is determined by current
and the size of the wire. Figured this up a long time ago and seemed like
I rember the answer being in less than an inch per second but that does
seem awful slow and I would not bet on it. I do know we figured that a
conductor would explode if the electrons were traveling at five miles
per hour. This was not the point at which wires exploded but just a speed
we pulled out of the hat and discovered that the current to size ratio
needed to get this speed was impractical.. I m sure you could Google the
subject and get better info than I have provided.



Okay, I tell ya what. We gonna get some wire, a good power supply and a
light bulb. We'll string out, oh say, 1/4 mile. You get the fastest car
you can find, hell, get an airplane or a rocket if you want. I'll
throw the switch and if you can get whatever vehicle you find to the
other end of the wire before the light is lit I'll give ya $100,000 if
you loose, you pay me the $100K. Deal? Hell, I'll even give ya a head
start....



Conceptually, let's say we paint one electron purple with yellow
polka dots so that we can easily identify it. Are you saying that
when the starting gun for this race goes off, that specially
painted electron enters the near end of the 1/4 mile wire, and that
same specially painted electron arrives at the far end of the
wire *before* the race car?

Ed

Lol,

I think I said, "Before the light is lit"...

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:29:45 -0500, "DBLEXPOSURE"
Gave us:


"ehsjr" wrote in message
news:HHrNe.121$IG2.79@trndny01...
DBLEXPOSURE wrote:
"Jimmie" wrote in message
...

"Don Kelly" wrote in message
news:B6wKe.180654$s54.136019@pd7tw2no...

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...

John Fields wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:14:37 GMT, "JoeSixPack"
wrote:


Before you attack this post, saying electrons can only travel at the
speed
of light, that's incorrect. The electrons themselves can travel any
speed,

---
No, they can only travel at speeds less than the speed of light.
---


but the voltage wave produced does travel at 300,000 kms per second.

---
It's not a "voltage" wave, it's an electromagnetic wave, and it can
only propagate at the speed of light in a vacuum.

Either an Electrolux or a Hoover.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
APL is a write-only language. I can write programs in APL, but I
can't read any of them.
-- Roy Keir

Of course you can read APL programs- it's just that the necessary
comments are far,far longer than the program itself!

--

Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------



Electrons travel way slower than light speed. Slower than walking speed
as a matter of fact in a conductor. Their speed is determined by current
and the size of the wire. Figured this up a long time ago and seemed like
I rember the answer being in less than an inch per second but that does
seem awful slow and I would not bet on it. I do know we figured that a
conductor would explode if the electrons were traveling at five miles
per hour. This was not the point at which wires exploded but just a speed
we pulled out of the hat and discovered that the current to size ratio
needed to get this speed was impractical.. I m sure you could Google the
subject and get better info than I have provided.



Okay, I tell ya what. We gonna get some wire, a good power supply and a
light bulb. We'll string out, oh say, 1/4 mile. You get the fastest car
you can find, hell, get an airplane or a rocket if you want. I'll
throw the switch and if you can get whatever vehicle you find to the
other end of the wire before the light is lit I'll give ya $100,000 if
you loose, you pay me the $100K. Deal? Hell, I'll even give ya a head
start....



Conceptually, let's say we paint one electron purple with yellow
polka dots so that we can easily identify it. Are you saying that
when the starting gun for this race goes off, that specially
painted electron enters the near end of the 1/4 mile wire, and that
same specially painted electron arrives at the far end of the
wire *before* the race car?

Ed

Lol,

I think I said, "Before the light is lit"...


So you are saying that the car will beat the electron. Sure.

ehsjr wrote:
DBLEXPOSURE wrote:

Conceptually, let's say we paint one electron purple with yellow
polka dots so that we can easily identify it. Are you saying that
when the starting gun for this race goes off, that specially
painted electron enters the near end of the 1/4 mile wire, and that
same specially painted electron arrives at the far end of the
wire *before* the race car?

Ed

You two are talking about two different things. Individuals electrons
travel incredibly slowly. And electric signals propagate typically
around 2/3 c. These are not contradictory statements.

Mark

"redbelly" wrote in message
oups.com...

ehsjr wrote:
DBLEXPOSURE wrote:

Conceptually, let's say we paint one electron purple with yellow
polka dots so that we can easily identify it. Are you saying that
when the starting gun for this race goes off, that specially
painted electron enters the near end of the 1/4 mile wire, and that
same specially painted electron arrives at the far end of the
wire *before* the race car?

Ed

You two are talking about two different things. Individuals electrons
travel incredibly slowly. And electric signals propagate typically
around 2/3 c. These are not contradictory statements.

Mark


The OP was speaking of electrons. My hypothetical race concerned signal
propagation. Ed called the bluff.



However, It is widely misunderstood and miss taught concept. Not to mention
an interesting topic.



What is really happening?



In answer to Ed, I do not think his painted electron will ever come out the
other end.



Electrons are said to, "pop" in and out of existence. When one pops out,
does the same one pop back in? If so does it pop back into the same matter
from which it left? When it leaves does it really, or only loose it
properties that make it an electron?



Back to my reading...

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:11:57 -0500, "DBLEXPOSURE"
Gave us:


Electrons are said to, "pop" in and out of existence.


In a conductor, they pop in and out of valence shells. I doubt that
any are obliterated.

Equilibrium is the choice most atoms make. If one has a hole, it
will pick one up at the first opportunity it has.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:11:57 -0500, "DBLEXPOSURE"
Gave us:

When one pops out,
does the same one pop back in? If so does it pop back into the same matter
from which it left? When it leaves does it really, or only loose it
properties that make it an electron?


Hahahahaha....


Back to my reading...

Indeed. Read it twice.

"TokaMundo" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:11:57 -0500, "DBLEXPOSURE"
Gave us:

When one pops out,
does the same one pop back in? If so does it pop back into the same
matter
from which it left? When it leaves does it really, or only loose it
properties that make it an electron?


Hahahahaha....


Back to my reading...

Indeed. Read it twice.

You do not offer answers you only laugh at the questions.

The motion of the electron about the nucleus is a somewhat controversial
topic. The electron does not move in a continuous path- rather, it seems to
appear in and out of existence, at various points around the nucleus (of
course, 90% of the time the electron can be found in its designated
orbital). It would seem to me the other 10% of the time it must be
somewhere else or become something else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron

Perhaps in your cannabis smoke filled universe particles behave differntly.

DBLEXPOSURE wrote:

The motion of the electron about the nucleus is a somewhat controversial
topic. The electron does not move in a continuous path- rather, it seems to
appear in and out of existence, at various points around the nucleus (of
course, 90% of the time the electron can be found in its designated
orbital). It would seem to me the other 10% of the time it must be
somewhere else or become something else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron

I would call those statements (on the part of the wikipedia.org)
misleading. An electron is always SOMEWHERE, but the uncertainty
princeiple prevents us from knowing exactly where the electron is
located. This is quite different than saying it ceases to exist, or is
transformed into something other than an electron.

HTH,

Mark

DBLEXPOSURE wrote:
"redbelly" wrote in message
oups.com...

ehsjr wrote:

DBLEXPOSURE wrote:

Conceptually, let's say we paint one electron purple with yellow
polka dots so that we can easily identify it. Are you saying that
when the starting gun for this race goes off, that specially
painted electron enters the near end of the 1/4 mile wire, and that
same specially painted electron arrives at the far end of the
wire *before* the race car?

Ed

You two are talking about two different things. Individuals electrons
travel incredibly slowly. And electric signals propagate typically
around 2/3 c. These are not contradictory statements.

Mark



The OP was speaking of electrons. My hypothetical race concerned signal
propagation. Ed called the bluff.



However, It is widely misunderstood and miss taught concept. Not to mention
an interesting topic.



What is really happening?



In answer to Ed, I do not think his painted electron will ever come out the
other end.



Electrons are said to, "pop" in and out of existence. When one pops out,
does the same one pop back in? If so does it pop back into the same matter
from which it left? When it leaves does it really, or only loose it
properties that make it an electron?

Or maybe the paint falls off? :-)
Ed



Back to my reading...

"ehsjr" wrote in message
news:XKyNe.190$IG2.29@trndny01...
DBLEXPOSURE wrote:
"redbelly" wrote in message
oups.com...

ehsjr wrote:

DBLEXPOSURE wrote:

Conceptually, let's say we paint one electron purple with yellow
polka dots so that we can easily identify it. Are you saying that
when the starting gun for this race goes off, that specially
painted electron enters the near end of the 1/4 mile wire, and that
same specially painted electron arrives at the far end of the
wire *before* the race car?

Ed

You two are talking about two different things. Individuals electrons
travel incredibly slowly. And electric signals propagate typically
around 2/3 c. These are not contradictory statements.

Mark



The OP was speaking of electrons. My hypothetical race concerned signal
propagation. Ed called the bluff.



However, It is widely misunderstood and miss taught concept. Not to
mention an interesting topic.



What is really happening?



In answer to Ed, I do not think his painted electron will ever come out
the other end.



Electrons are said to, "pop" in and out of existence. When one pops out,
does the same one pop back in? If so does it pop back into the same
matter from which it left? When it leaves does it really, or only loose
it properties that make it an electron?

Or maybe the paint falls off? :-)
Ed



Back to my reading...

Lol... You have to use Gluon based paint :-)

DBLEXPOSURE wrote:

Or maybe the paint falls off? :-)
Ed



Lol... You have to use Gluon based paint :-)


I was afraid of that. The guy at Fermi paint
where I get my supplies always hits me with
a Planck when I ask for gluon paint. But at
least he's constant. He always tells me the
paint must not be shaken or stirred, but spun,
one and only one time. Go figure.

I asked my friend Werner about the electron
popping thing - he said he was uncertain.
'Nuff for now - pardon me while I duck.

Ed

loose - lose

Electrons travel way slower than light speed. Slower than walking speed as
a matter of fact in a conductor.

Okay, I tell ya what. We gonna get some wire, a good power supply and a
light bulb. We'll string out, oh say, 1/4 mile. You get the fastest car
you can find, hell, get an airplane or a rocket if you want. I'll throw
the switch and if you can get whatever vehicle you find to the other end of
the wire before the light is lit I'll give ya $100,000 if you loose, you pay
me the $100K. Deal? Hell, I'll even give ya a head start....

Which would prove what exactly? I could do the same with a piece of string
strung out over the quarter mile, and that doesn't mean I can pull on the
string to move it at a rate faster than you can drive.

just because the signal reaches the end of the wire doesn't mean it's the
exact same electrons coming out one end that went in at the other a fraction
of a second earlier, because it isn't.

--

Bye.
Jasen