Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Old April 14th 18, 09:42 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries. It was originally shipped from the factory with nicds and a charger.

The instructions show it has two recharge modes switchable from the front panel; recharge and store. The store is a very low trickle charge. Because it's from the early 80s, I'm assuming it's just a current limited charger (dumb charge) as it takes 14 hours to charge the entire group.

I would have like to install eneloops in it, but anecdotal evidence suggests they don't like this type of charge, so I'm back at looking at regular nicads for it.

So, is it true that Panasonic eneloop cells need a smart charger and does anyone know if anyone is making a quality nicad battery anymore? In the old days, I'd buy Sanyo nicads and although they'd often advertise less mah per cell than others, they seemed to last almost forever.

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Old April 15th 18, 02:29 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On Saturday, 14 April 2018 21:42:30 UTC+1, John-Del wrote:

I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries. It was originally shipped from the factory with nicds and a charger.

The instructions show it has two recharge modes switchable from the front panel; recharge and store. The store is a very low trickle charge. Because it's from the early 80s, I'm assuming it's just a current limited charger (dumb charge) as it takes 14 hours to charge the entire group.

I would have like to install eneloops in it, but anecdotal evidence suggests they don't like this type of charge, so I'm back at looking at regular nicads for it.

So, is it true that Panasonic eneloop cells need a smart charger and does anyone know if anyone is making a quality nicad battery anymore? In the old days, I'd buy Sanyo nicads and although they'd often advertise less mah per cell than others, they seemed to last almost forever.


Over here they're banned now. FWIW I had good results years ago with very old nicads, but yeah, the capacity isn't hot.

I also wouldn't ignore the possibility of just using cheap new NiMH, if the capacity is enough.


NT
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Old April 15th 18, 02:56 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On 4/14/2018 1:42 PM, John-Del wrote:
I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries. It was originally shipped from the factory with nicds and a charger.

The instructions show it has two recharge modes switchable from the front panel; recharge and store. The store is a very low trickle charge. Because it's from the early 80s, I'm assuming it's just a current limited charger (dumb charge) as it takes 14 hours to charge the entire group.

I would have like to install eneloops in it, but anecdotal evidence suggests they don't like this type of charge, so I'm back at looking at regular nicads for it.

So, is it true that Panasonic eneloop cells need a smart charger and does anyone know if anyone is making a quality nicad battery anymore? In the old days, I'd buy Sanyo nicads and although they'd often advertise less mah per cell than others, they seemed to last almost forever.

There are a LOT of variables here.
It would be helpful to know what it is.
Are the batteries in series, parallel, separate supplies?
Is the OFF power drain really zero?
Is it gonna sit for a long time between uses?

'80's nicads were probably about 500maH.
With eneloops, that 14 hour charge might become 56 hours.
If there are 14 cells in series, there's a lot of opportunity
to have at least one cell reversed by the time you sense
any symptoms. Keep doing that and you'll kill 'em all eventually.

The best strategy is to charge the cells externally in a proper
charger and put 'em
back in when you're ready to use it.

There are many charging strategies, but depend heavily on
the usage patterns and actual cell configurations.
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Old April 15th 18, 03:18 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT), John-Del
wrote:

I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries.


There's quite a bit on charging Eneloop cells he
https://eneloop101.com
https://eneloop101.com/charge/
Plenty of warnings to NOT use really fast chargers and really dumb
(trickle) chargers.

Can I suggest yet another alternative? 14 NiCd cells, at 1.35v each =
18.9V total. If you replace the AA cells with five 14500 LiIon cells,
which are the same physical size, that would be:
5 * 3.6 = 18.0v
There are plenty of smart chargers available for the RC market that
can deal with a 5s battery pack. I have one of these:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/imax-b6-50w-5a-charger-discharger-1-6-cells-genuine.html
Checking the specs, it charge 1 to 6 cells so it should work.
If you need AC power, LiFePO4 charging, PC connectivity, upgradeable
firmware, and terminal voltage adjust, the V2 version is what you
want:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/imax-b6ac-v2-professional-balance-charger-discharger.html

I use nothing by the cheapest cells, which sucks because they usually
only have about half the capacity and lifetime of a decent cell.
However, they're cheap, and my use in mostly flashlight is not
critical.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/Rechargeable-Batteries/48619/i.html?_nkw=14500+li-ion+battery
I haven't tried this brand, but at $1/ea, it's worth trying.

One potential problem with LiIon is if your unspecified device runs on
+10 and -10 volts. 5 cells won't work but 6 cells might. It all
depends on the operating voltage range of your unspecified device and
on how it's wired/designed/configured.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Old April 15th 18, 09:22 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On 4/14/2018 7:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT), John-Del
wrote:

I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries.


There's quite a bit on charging Eneloop cells he
https://eneloop101.com
https://eneloop101.com/charge/
Plenty of warnings to NOT use really fast chargers and really dumb
(trickle) chargers.

Can I suggest yet another alternative? 14 NiCd cells, at 1.35v each =
18.9V total. If you replace the AA cells with five 14500 LiIon cells,
which are the same physical size, that would be:
5 * 3.6 = 18.0v
There are plenty of smart chargers available for the RC market that
can deal with a 5s battery pack. I have one of these:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/imax-b6-50w-5a-charger-discharger-1-6-cells-genuine.html
Checking the specs, it charge 1 to 6 cells so it should work.
If you need AC power, LiFePO4 charging, PC connectivity, upgradeable
firmware, and terminal voltage adjust, the V2 version is what you
want:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/imax-b6ac-v2-professional-balance-charger-discharger.html

I use nothing by the cheapest cells, which sucks because they usually
only have about half the capacity and lifetime of a decent cell.
However, they're cheap, and my use in mostly flashlight is not
critical.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/Rechargeable-Batteries/48619/i.html?_nkw=14500+li-ion+battery
I haven't tried this brand, but at $1/ea, it's worth trying.


Thanks, but the link takes me to page after page of cells.
Can you disclose exactly which link is the one you've verified as
reasonable cells?
Better the devil you know than to take a random shot.

I've had horrible luck with any 18650's with "ultra" or "fire" in the
name. I'd like not to repeat that with 14500's.


One potential problem with LiIon is if your unspecified device runs on
+10 and -10 volts. 5 cells won't work but 6 cells might. It all
depends on the operating voltage range of your unspecified device and
on how it's wired/designed/configured.





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Old April 15th 18, 12:02 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On Sunday, 15 April 2018 02:29:50 UTC+1, tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 14 April 2018 21:42:30 UTC+1, John-Del wrote:


I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries. It was originally shipped from the factory with nicds and a charger.

The instructions show it has two recharge modes switchable from the front panel; recharge and store. The store is a very low trickle charge. Because it's from the early 80s, I'm assuming it's just a current limited charger (dumb charge) as it takes 14 hours to charge the entire group.

I would have like to install eneloops in it, but anecdotal evidence suggests they don't like this type of charge, so I'm back at looking at regular nicads for it.

So, is it true that Panasonic eneloop cells need a smart charger and does anyone know if anyone is making a quality nicad battery anymore? In the old days, I'd buy Sanyo nicads and although they'd often advertise less mah per cell than others, they seemed to last almost forever.


Over here they're banned now. FWIW I had good results years ago with very old nicads, but yeah, the capacity isn't hot.

I also wouldn't ignore the possibility of just using cheap new NiMH, if the capacity is enough.


NT


or it might be easier to ask for a pile of NiCds on ebay


NT
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Old April 15th 18, 03:05 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 9:57:51 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:
On 4/14/2018 1:42 PM, John-Del wrote:
I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries. It was originally shipped from the factory with nicds and a charger.

The instructions show it has two recharge modes switchable from the front panel; recharge and store. The store is a very low trickle charge. Because it's from the early 80s, I'm assuming it's just a current limited charger (dumb charge) as it takes 14 hours to charge the entire group.

I would have like to install eneloops in it, but anecdotal evidence suggests they don't like this type of charge, so I'm back at looking at regular nicads for it.

So, is it true that Panasonic eneloop cells need a smart charger and does anyone know if anyone is making a quality nicad battery anymore? In the old days, I'd buy Sanyo nicads and although they'd often advertise less mah per cell than others, they seemed to last almost forever.

There are a LOT of variables here.
It would be helpful to know what it is.


Trying to avoid that It's a Teknetics 9000 metal detector. Back when it was new, it was a high end detector. I don't know where I got it or even when, but there it is in my collection. My brother lost some keys last fall and has a pretty good idea where they are. He was going to buy a detector but I told him I have one so that's what prompted my inquiry.


Are the batteries in series, parallel, separate supplies?


Series, but in two different banks of 8 and 6. If I feed in a dc supply on the 8 cell bank, the LCD display comes to life and the controls affect the display. If I put a supply on the 6 cell bank, it draws current but the LCD doesn't light. No, I haven't powered both simultaneously. I will before I order any batteries to confirm it's working.

Is the OFF power drain really zero?


I think so. There is a physical switch for power.


Is it gonna sit for a long time between uses?


Probably, although these are fun toys and I do have several acres of uncleared woods on my property to explore. One of my best friends has a house built in 1798 with an original rock wall and outhouse, so there's that.


The best strategy is to charge the cells externally in a proper
charger and put 'em
back in when you're ready to use it.


I agree, but one of the banks of batteries had a leakage and several of the very thin battery contacts have disintegrated away. If I install batteries in it, it would be far more convenient to not have to physically remove them for charging.

I may have to rebuild the battery box with new contacts and go with external charging as you suggest. I was just looking for an easier way out (which is my defining personality trait...)

Thanks everyone.


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Old April 15th 18, 04:28 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT), John-Del
wrote:

I have this device which uses 14 AA rechageable batteries. It was originally shipped from the factory with nicds and a charger.

The instructions show it has two recharge modes switchable from the front panel; recharge and store. The store is a very low trickle charge. Because it's from the early 80s, I'm assuming it's just a current limited charger (dumb charge) as it takes 14 hours to charge the entire group.

I would have like to install eneloops in it, but anecdotal evidence suggests they don't like this type of charge, so I'm back at looking at regular nicads for it.

So, is it true that Panasonic eneloop cells need a smart charger and does anyone know if anyone is making a quality nicad battery anymore? In the old days, I'd buy Sanyo nicads and although they'd often advertise less mah per cell than others, they seemed to last almost forever.


A few years ago I pickedup a Eneloop battery pack for a bearecat
scanner.

It takes longer to charge, since the charger is a fraction of the
eneloop capacity. I never had over heating issues. It probably never
fully charged, but it's always ready to use.

Avoid the trickle charge.

Test it out, you'll be happy with the eneloops.

Cheers
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Old April 15th 18, 04:57 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On Sunday, April 15, 2018 at 7:05:10 AM UTC-7, John-Del wrote:
.... My brother lost some keys last fall and has a pretty good idea where
they are. He was going to buy a detector but I told him I have one so that's
what prompted my inquiry.

If you only need it once for a single job, I would just use alkaline batteries for a quick and easy fix. If necessary, use a couple battery holders and mount them externally. I assume that the circuitry will tolerate the slightly higher voltage, but if you are concerned, you could use one or two fewer cells in each pack.
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Old April 15th 18, 06:36 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Rechargeable battery question

On Sun, 15 Apr 2018 01:22:04 -0700, mike wrote:

I use nothing by the cheapest cells, which sucks because they usually
only have about half the capacity and lifetime of a decent cell.
However, they're cheap, and my use in mostly flashlight is not
critical.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/Rechargeable-Batteries/48619/i.html?_nkw=14500+li-ion+battery
I haven't tried this brand, but at $1/ea, it's worth trying.


Thanks, but the link takes me to page after page of cells.
Can you disclose exactly which link is the one you've verified as
reasonable cells?
Better the devil you know than to take a random shot.

I've had horrible luck with any 18650's with "ultra" or "fire" in the
name. I'd like not to repeat that with 14500's.


Sorry. I meant the link to show an example of typical LiIon batteries
of all sizes, brands, and qualities. I usually avoid making product
recommendations unless I've used or tested the product. I can't
provide a reliable source of 14500 cells because I have yet to
purchase any that I consider to be acceptable.

The problem with buying by brand name is that there are so many
counterfeit cells on the market, that chances are good that even an
honest vendor might be fooled by a disreputable distributor.
"Can you identify the fake LG HG2 18650 Battery?"
https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/104619270-can-you-identify-the-fake-lg-hg2-18650-battery
Lots of articles on how to spot fake cells. For a while, I was having
too success by weighing the cells, but todays fakes are filled with
carefully measured amounts of sand making the fakes impossible to spot
by the weight. My best source of 18650 cells are used laptop battery
packs. The catch is that they don't have a "button top" on the +
terminal making them difficult to use in some holders.

In 14500 cells, everything I've purchased on eBay has been lacking. I
haven't had time to run any discharge curves on the 14500 cells, such
as these for various 18650 cells:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg
I carry around a flashlight with 14500 cells that has a rather short
operating time and probably doesn't meet the printed specs.

To: John-Del
Before you run out and buy a pile of know to be good 14500 for
powering the unspecified device, I suggest you buy some cheap 14500
cells on eBay, which are sure to be inferior and possibly counterfeit.
Test the unspecified device and its charging system using cheap cells.
Once it's working, then go shopping for good batteries.

So, where to get good 14500 cells? I have no idea. I just checked
Digikey and Mouser. Nothing found. I tried NewEgg and found the same
bogus brands as on eBay. Nitecore is probably a good (relabeled)
brand, but the price is too high:
https://www.amazon.com/TETC-1200mah-Rechargeable-Battery-charger/dp/B017IGL5HA
I found an article recommending brands:
http://www.25tobuy.com/electronics/top-9-best-14500-rechargeable-lithium-ion-batteries
but no sources. There's also the risk of buying counterfeits.

Bottom line... Sorry, I can't answer your question at this time.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


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