Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?
I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but
the board is simply not thick enough to let enough
light pass.
Any other way to look inside a board or other object?
I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that
visible on the other side.
This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an
example, another example may be, how to show the
metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing
under a label without removing the label, and so on.
A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper.
inbetween i put a piece of newspaper.
Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the
text visible?
Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason
for it.
As well, can electric current in a board made visible ?
To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and
so on.
Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how,
but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on
top of the object, that´s why i thought of infrared.
Any ideas?

Bart Bervoets

"Bart Bervoets" wrote in message
news
Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?
I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but
the board is simply not thick enough to let enough
light pass.
Any other way to look inside a board or other object?
I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that
visible on the other side.
This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an
example, another example may be, how to show the
metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing
under a label without removing the label, and so on.
A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper.
inbetween i put a piece of newspaper.
Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the
text visible?
Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason
for it.
As well, can electric current in a board made visible ?
To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and
so on.
Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how,
but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on
top of the object, that´s why i thought of infrared.
Any ideas?

Bart Bervoets


He's probably telling lies..

The only sure way I could think to do most of the above would be with Radio
waves (or some other type of radiation).. But I have never used any RF
sensors that are detailed enough to show traces on a motherboard (the echo
effects would just be too much to compensate for fully). You could probably
use some type of "thermal" camera to see electrical movements through a PCB
(but it would be VERRY small)

Bart Bervoets wrote:

Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?
I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but
the board is simply not thick enough to let enough
light pass.
Any other way to look inside a board or other object?
I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that
visible on the other side.
This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an
example, another example may be, how to show the
metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing
under a label without removing the label, and so on.
A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper.
inbetween i put a piece of newspaper.
Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the
text visible?
Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason
for it.
As well, can electric current in a board made visible ?
To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and
so on.
Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how,
but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on
top of the object, that´s why i thought of infrared.
Any ideas?

Bart Bervoets


Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport
be able to show the internals?


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

X-Ray would not work since all the layers would be seen at once and you
could not determine which was connected to what... You need the internal
layer drawings which are not likely to be released by the manufacturer...


"CJT" wrote in message
...
Bart Bervoets wrote:

Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?

Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport
be able to show the internals?

"Bart Bervoets" wrote in message ...
Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?
I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but
the board is simply not thick enough to let enough
light pass.
Any other way to look inside a board or other object?
I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that
visible on the other side.

If you understand what the circuit is doing, and there are only
4 layers and the 2 inner layers are power planes, you can do a pretty
good job by eye.

X-rays can do the job quite well. You do have to disentangle all the
layers, and for 5 layers it gets complicated with overlapping
internal vias.

There also are automated "bed of needles" test machines that will tell
you which pads are connected to which other pads. This isn't the same
as telling you all the details of internal routing (which can be very
important at hundreds of MHz). This is useful for unpopulated boards,
but I'd question its utility for boards with BGA parts already soldered
on.

As well, can electric current in a board made visible ?

Magna-See (for directly visible readout). Current probes
and/or Hall-effect probes for quantitative measurements.

Tim.

It would work, as that´s what i want, to see all layers
at once, not just the surface.
But nobody has x-ray, plus the radiation is bad.
I thought of high infrared and pick up with a camera.
Videocameras make infrared visible (i do it to test remotes)
But i have no idea how to obtain infrared powerful
enough to look through a board, the waves likely won´t
make it through.

Bart Bervoets
"Bob Shuman" schreef in bericht
...
X-Ray would not work since all the layers would be seen at once and you
could not determine which was connected to what... You need the internal
layer drawings which are not likely to be released by the manufacturer...


"CJT" wrote in message
...
Bart Bervoets wrote:

Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?

Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport
be able to show the internals?

The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of
X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will
be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in
characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not
penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible,
and is difficult to decipher in visual detail.

A manufacture called Golden Engineering can make the type of X-Ray equipment
required for this type of application.
http://www.goldenengineering.com/ shows a X-Ray machine that would most
likely do well with circuit boards. This one see several inches square at a
time. A photo plate is required below the search head. There are some very
large systems that can show the output on to monitors, or computers.
http://www.goldenengineering.com/xr150.pdf shows their smallest model. It
can penetrate 1/2 inch of steel. I am sure that this unit would do what you
want.

For general service work, this type of industrial X-Ray equipment would be
prohibitive. You can put a nice down payment for a home, or even go out and
by a new car for the cost of the basic unit. These are normally purchased
for industrial applications. Their application is usually for flaw detection
inside of materials. An example would be, critical aircraft and auto parts
are X-Rayed for safety checks during their manufacture and production
process.

As far as service is concerned, I know what you are getting at. It is far
cheaper to replace a complete circuit board, or to sell the client a new
set, rather than spend many hours on it, and change a lot of parts. This is
especially true for the low to medium end consumer units. This is why many
manufactures do not have the sales info-structure in place to sell the parts
or service manuals. Many of them do not even publish service manuals for
distribution. The schematics stop at the manufacture level. Manufactures who
sell the service manuals for their products, would never provide the circuit
board layout design information. This would make it easier for their
competitors to reverse engineer their products.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"Bart Bervoets" wrote in message
news Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?
I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but
the board is simply not thick enough to let enough
light pass.
Any other way to look inside a board or other object?
I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that
visible on the other side.
This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an
example, another example may be, how to show the
metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing
under a label without removing the label, and so on.
A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper.
inbetween i put a piece of newspaper.
Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the
text visible?
Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason
for it.
As well, can electric current in a board made visible ?
To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and
so on.
Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how,
but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on
top of the object, that´s why i thought of infrared.
Any ideas?

Bart Bervoets

True, but the pcb was actually just an example.
A better example was the paper, a black piece of paper,
under it a paper with printing on and again a black paper.
Light cannot go through, so what method to use to see
the print on the white paper without tearing the layers
apart?
This was a question of someone i know, he needs such
application in his factory, it has something to do with
fraud detection.
I cannot say exactly what, only that the above example
comes very close to what he needs.
Can infrared penetrate cardboard?
I would say there must be a way to do this.

Bart Bervoets

"Jerry G." schreef in bericht
...
The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use
of
X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR
will
be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in
characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not
penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be
visible,
and is difficult to decipher in visual detail.

A manufacture called Golden Engineering can make the type of X-Ray
equipment
required for this type of application.
http://www.goldenengineering.com/ shows a X-Ray machine that would most
likely do well with circuit boards. This one see several inches square at
a
time. A photo plate is required below the search head. There are some
very
large systems that can show the output on to monitors, or computers.
http://www.goldenengineering.com/xr150.pdf shows their smallest model. It
can penetrate 1/2 inch of steel. I am sure that this unit would do what
you
want.

For general service work, this type of industrial X-Ray equipment would be
prohibitive. You can put a nice down payment for a home, or even go out
and
by a new car for the cost of the basic unit. These are normally purchased
for industrial applications. Their application is usually for flaw
detection
inside of materials. An example would be, critical aircraft and auto parts
are X-Rayed for safety checks during their manufacture and production
process.

As far as service is concerned, I know what you are getting at. It is far
cheaper to replace a complete circuit board, or to sell the client a new
set, rather than spend many hours on it, and change a lot of parts. This
is
especially true for the low to medium end consumer units. This is why many
manufactures do not have the sales info-structure in place to sell the
parts
or service manuals. Many of them do not even publish service manuals for
distribution. The schematics stop at the manufacture level. Manufactures
who
sell the service manuals for their products, would never provide the
circuit
board layout design information. This would make it easier for their
competitors to reverse engineer their products.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"Bart Bervoets" wrote in message
news Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?
I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but
the board is simply not thick enough to let enough
light pass.
Any other way to look inside a board or other object?
I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that
visible on the other side.
This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an
example, another example may be, how to show the
metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing
under a label without removing the label, and so on.
A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper.
inbetween i put a piece of newspaper.
Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the
text visible?
Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason
for it.
As well, can electric current in a board made visible ?
To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and
so on.
Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how,
but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on
top of the object, that´s why i thought of infrared.
Any ideas?

Bart Bervoets

Bart Bervoets wrote:
It would work, as that´s what i want, to see all layers
at once, not just the surface.
But nobody has x-ray, plus the radiation is bad.
I thought of high infrared and pick up with a camera.
Videocameras make infrared visible (i do it to test remotes)
But i have no idea how to obtain infrared powerful
enough to look through a board, the waves likely won´t
make it through.

If you have sensitive enough infrared imaging, you could probably
just heat the whole thing up and watch it as it cools. Since the
different materials will cool at different rates, each should show
up in turn. But I haven't tried it, so I could be wrong.


Bart Bervoets
"Bob Shuman" schreef in bericht
...

X-Ray would not work since all the layers would be seen at once and you
could not determine which was connected to what... You need the internal
layer drawings which are not likely to be released by the manufacturer...


"CJT" wrote in message
...

Bart Bervoets wrote:


Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)?


Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport
be able to show the internals?








--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Jerry G. wrote:

The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of
X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will
be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in
characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not
penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible,
and is difficult to decipher in visual detail.
snip

I'm not convinced IR's wavelength is too long to be useful. I've used
IR film (although it was quite a long time ago), and the images can be
quite detailed. If microscopic features were the issue I would probably
agree. As the OP pointed out, some camcorders have an IR mode, too,
which could be useful.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"Bart Bervoets" wrote:

It would work, as that´s what i want, to see all layers
at once, not just the surface.
But nobody has x-ray, plus the radiation is bad.
I thought of high infrared and pick up with a camera.
Videocameras make infrared visible (i do it to test remotes)
But i have no idea how to obtain infrared powerful
enough to look through a board, the waves likely won´t
make it through.

Almost every dentist has a small X-Ray machine It may be useful to
X-Ray small boards, or small sections of a bigger one.
---
Ing. Remberto Gomez-Meda
http://ingemeda.tripod.com/
INGE - Ingenieria Electronica.
Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco, Mexico.

Jerry G. wrote:
: The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of
: X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will
: be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in
: characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not
: penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible,
: and is difficult to decipher in visual detail.


Agreed.

There's no practical and cost effective way (for the consumer) to do this.

Do a google search for "x-ray laminography". HP makes a 5DX x-ray machine
that essentially "cuts through layers" but I doubt if you want to pay
over .5 mil. for the job.

b.

Jerry G. wrote:
: The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of
: X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will
: be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in
: characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not
: penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible,
: and is difficult to decipher in visual detail.


Agreed.

There's no practical and cost effective way (for the consumer) to do this.

Do a google search for "x-ray laminography". HP makes a 5DX x-ray machine
that essentially "cuts through layers" but I doubt if you want to pay
over .5 mil. for the job.

b.