Layers in circuit board and current.
Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which
has traces inside (multilayer)? I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but the board is simply not thick enough to let enough light pass. Any other way to look inside a board or other object? I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that visible on the other side. This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an example, another example may be, how to show the metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing under a label without removing the label, and so on. A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper. inbetween i put a piece of newspaper. Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the text visible? Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason for it. As well, can electric current in a board made visible ? To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and so on. Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how, but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on top of the object, thatīs why i thought of infrared. Any ideas? Bart Bervoets |
Layers in circuit board and current.
"Bart Bervoets" wrote in message ... Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but the board is simply not thick enough to let enough light pass. Any other way to look inside a board or other object? I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that visible on the other side. This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an example, another example may be, how to show the metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing under a label without removing the label, and so on. A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper. inbetween i put a piece of newspaper. Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the text visible? Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason for it. As well, can electric current in a board made visible ? To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and so on. Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how, but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on top of the object, thatīs why i thought of infrared. Any ideas? Bart Bervoets He's probably telling lies.. The only sure way I could think to do most of the above would be with Radio waves (or some other type of radiation).. But I have never used any RF sensors that are detailed enough to show traces on a motherboard (the echo effects would just be too much to compensate for fully). You could probably use some type of "thermal" camera to see electrical movements through a PCB (but it would be VERRY small) |
Layers in circuit board and current.
Bart Bervoets wrote:
Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but the board is simply not thick enough to let enough light pass. Any other way to look inside a board or other object? I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that visible on the other side. This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an example, another example may be, how to show the metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing under a label without removing the label, and so on. A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper. inbetween i put a piece of newspaper. Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the text visible? Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason for it. As well, can electric current in a board made visible ? To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and so on. Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how, but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on top of the object, thatīs why i thought of infrared. Any ideas? Bart Bervoets Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport be able to show the internals? -- The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to minimize spam. Our true address is of the form . |
Layers in circuit board and current.
X-Ray would not work since all the layers would be seen at once and you
could not determine which was connected to what... You need the internal layer drawings which are not likely to be released by the manufacturer... "CJT" wrote in message ... Bart Bervoets wrote: Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport be able to show the internals? |
Layers in circuit board and current.
"Bart Bervoets" wrote in message ...
Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but the board is simply not thick enough to let enough light pass. Any other way to look inside a board or other object? I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that visible on the other side. If you understand what the circuit is doing, and there are only 4 layers and the 2 inner layers are power planes, you can do a pretty good job by eye. X-rays can do the job quite well. You do have to disentangle all the layers, and for 5 layers it gets complicated with overlapping internal vias. There also are automated "bed of needles" test machines that will tell you which pads are connected to which other pads. This isn't the same as telling you all the details of internal routing (which can be very important at hundreds of MHz). This is useful for unpopulated boards, but I'd question its utility for boards with BGA parts already soldered on. As well, can electric current in a board made visible ? Magna-See (for directly visible readout). Current probes and/or Hall-effect probes for quantitative measurements. Tim. |
Layers in circuit board and current.
It would work, as thatīs what i want, to see all layers
at once, not just the surface. But nobody has x-ray, plus the radiation is bad. I thought of high infrared and pick up with a camera. Videocameras make infrared visible (i do it to test remotes) But i have no idea how to obtain infrared powerful enough to look through a board, the waves likely wonīt make it through. Bart Bervoets "Bob Shuman" schreef in bericht ... X-Ray would not work since all the layers would be seen at once and you could not determine which was connected to what... You need the internal layer drawings which are not likely to be released by the manufacturer... "CJT" wrote in message ... Bart Bervoets wrote: Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport be able to show the internals? |
Layers in circuit board and current.
The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of
X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible, and is difficult to decipher in visual detail. A manufacture called Golden Engineering can make the type of X-Ray equipment required for this type of application. http://www.goldenengineering.com/ shows a X-Ray machine that would most likely do well with circuit boards. This one see several inches square at a time. A photo plate is required below the search head. There are some very large systems that can show the output on to monitors, or computers. http://www.goldenengineering.com/xr150.pdf shows their smallest model. It can penetrate 1/2 inch of steel. I am sure that this unit would do what you want. For general service work, this type of industrial X-Ray equipment would be prohibitive. You can put a nice down payment for a home, or even go out and by a new car for the cost of the basic unit. These are normally purchased for industrial applications. Their application is usually for flaw detection inside of materials. An example would be, critical aircraft and auto parts are X-Rayed for safety checks during their manufacture and production process. As far as service is concerned, I know what you are getting at. It is far cheaper to replace a complete circuit board, or to sell the client a new set, rather than spend many hours on it, and change a lot of parts. This is especially true for the low to medium end consumer units. This is why many manufactures do not have the sales info-structure in place to sell the parts or service manuals. Many of them do not even publish service manuals for distribution. The schematics stop at the manufacture level. Manufactures who sell the service manuals for their products, would never provide the circuit board layout design information. This would make it easier for their competitors to reverse engineer their products. -- Greetings, Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG ========================================= WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm ========================================= "Bart Bervoets" wrote in message ... Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but the board is simply not thick enough to let enough light pass. Any other way to look inside a board or other object? I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that visible on the other side. This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an example, another example may be, how to show the metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing under a label without removing the label, and so on. A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper. inbetween i put a piece of newspaper. Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the text visible? Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason for it. As well, can electric current in a board made visible ? To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and so on. Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how, but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on top of the object, thatīs why i thought of infrared. Any ideas? Bart Bervoets |
Layers in circuit board and current.
True, but the pcb was actually just an example.
A better example was the paper, a black piece of paper, under it a paper with printing on and again a black paper. Light cannot go through, so what method to use to see the print on the white paper without tearing the layers apart? This was a question of someone i know, he needs such application in his factory, it has something to do with fraud detection. I cannot say exactly what, only that the above example comes very close to what he needs. Can infrared penetrate cardboard? I would say there must be a way to do this. Bart Bervoets "Jerry G." schreef in bericht ... The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible, and is difficult to decipher in visual detail. A manufacture called Golden Engineering can make the type of X-Ray equipment required for this type of application. http://www.goldenengineering.com/ shows a X-Ray machine that would most likely do well with circuit boards. This one see several inches square at a time. A photo plate is required below the search head. There are some very large systems that can show the output on to monitors, or computers. http://www.goldenengineering.com/xr150.pdf shows their smallest model. It can penetrate 1/2 inch of steel. I am sure that this unit would do what you want. For general service work, this type of industrial X-Ray equipment would be prohibitive. You can put a nice down payment for a home, or even go out and by a new car for the cost of the basic unit. These are normally purchased for industrial applications. Their application is usually for flaw detection inside of materials. An example would be, critical aircraft and auto parts are X-Rayed for safety checks during their manufacture and production process. As far as service is concerned, I know what you are getting at. It is far cheaper to replace a complete circuit board, or to sell the client a new set, rather than spend many hours on it, and change a lot of parts. This is especially true for the low to medium end consumer units. This is why many manufactures do not have the sales info-structure in place to sell the parts or service manuals. Many of them do not even publish service manuals for distribution. The schematics stop at the manufacture level. Manufactures who sell the service manuals for their products, would never provide the circuit board layout design information. This would make it easier for their competitors to reverse engineer their products. -- Greetings, Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG ========================================= WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm ========================================= "Bart Bervoets" wrote in message ... Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? I tried making the layers visible with a lighttable, but the board is simply not thick enough to let enough light pass. Any other way to look inside a board or other object? I thought of infrared light, but no idea how to make that visible on the other side. This sounds strange, i know, the circuit board is just an example, another example may be, how to show the metal in security cards, bank notes, check for printing under a label without removing the label, and so on. A third example may be, i have 2 pieces of black paper. inbetween i put a piece of newspaper. Light should not pass, but is there a way to make the text visible? Again, sounds weird, i know, but i have a good reason for it. As well, can electric current in a board made visible ? To check for broken traces, continuity problems, and so on. Someone claimed he did all above but refuses to say how, but i know he uses a computer scanner and something on top of the object, thatīs why i thought of infrared. Any ideas? Bart Bervoets |
Layers in circuit board and current.
Bart Bervoets wrote:
It would work, as thatīs what i want, to see all layers at once, not just the surface. But nobody has x-ray, plus the radiation is bad. I thought of high infrared and pick up with a camera. Videocameras make infrared visible (i do it to test remotes) But i have no idea how to obtain infrared powerful enough to look through a board, the waves likely wonīt make it through. If you have sensitive enough infrared imaging, you could probably just heat the whole thing up and watch it as it cools. Since the different materials will cool at different rates, each should show up in turn. But I haven't tried it, so I could be wrong. Bart Bervoets "Bob Shuman" schreef in bericht ... X-Ray would not work since all the layers would be seen at once and you could not determine which was connected to what... You need the internal layer drawings which are not likely to be released by the manufacturer... "CJT" wrote in message ... Bart Bervoets wrote: Is there any way to "look through" a circuit board which has traces inside (multilayer)? Shouldn't an x-ray machine like they use at the airport be able to show the internals? -- The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to minimize spam. Our true address is of the form . |
Layers in circuit board and current.
Jerry G. wrote:
The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible, and is difficult to decipher in visual detail. snip I'm not convinced IR's wavelength is too long to be useful. I've used IR film (although it was quite a long time ago), and the images can be quite detailed. If microscopic features were the issue I would probably agree. As the OP pointed out, some camcorders have an IR mode, too, which could be useful. -- The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to minimize spam. Our true address is of the form . |
Layers in circuit board and current.
"Bart Bervoets" wrote:
It would work, as thatīs what i want, to see all layers at once, not just the surface. But nobody has x-ray, plus the radiation is bad. I thought of high infrared and pick up with a camera. Videocameras make infrared visible (i do it to test remotes) But i have no idea how to obtain infrared powerful enough to look through a board, the waves likely wonīt make it through. Almost every dentist has a small X-Ray machine It may be useful to X-Ray small boards, or small sections of a bigger one. --- Ing. Remberto Gomez-Meda http://ingemeda.tripod.com/ INGE - Ingenieria Electronica. Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco, Mexico. |
Layers in circuit board and current.
Jerry G. wrote:
: The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of : X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will : be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in : characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not : penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible, : and is difficult to decipher in visual detail. Agreed. There's no practical and cost effective way (for the consumer) to do this. Do a google search for "x-ray laminography". HP makes a 5DX x-ray machine that essentially "cuts through layers" but I doubt if you want to pay over .5 mil. for the job. b. |
Layers in circuit board and current.
Jerry G. wrote:
: The only way to do this, without delaminating the boards are with the use of : X-Ray equipment. Then there is the task of deciphering what you see. IR will : be of too long a wavelength for any type of detail, and is of heat in : characteristics. UV is a very short wavelength of light, but does not : penetrate or pass through many types of materials. UV would not be visible, : and is difficult to decipher in visual detail. Agreed. There's no practical and cost effective way (for the consumer) to do this. Do a google search for "x-ray laminography". HP makes a 5DX x-ray machine that essentially "cuts through layers" but I doubt if you want to pay over .5 mil. for the job. b. |
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